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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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Everyone else is switching to material nodes.
I love iClone's simplicity but the nodes would allow us to exploit the power of iClone's PBR.
MAKE IT NOW.
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By mtakerkart - 5 Years Ago
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Hahaha!! NODES ??? Seriously?? You really want this only for water texture??? The day when Iclone sell nodes for textures
I live it at the speed of light....
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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I watched some tutorials on how to prepare materials for Blender eevee. It's nice to have more control perhaps, but the complexity seems over the top.
What you would be doing is incorporating Substance Designer in iClone, which doesn't sound like an attractive proposition.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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@mtakerkart - LOL! that is UE4 right, why did they need to make the water so complex...that better be some damn good water!...
I mean, what is that...Poland Springs water?
But you are correct, UE4 has the power to do such things BECAUSE it yes it has the nodes.
I'm actually thinking of more simple instances of further blend modes for channels in iClone.
So, for example, in iClone, or CC3, on a Diffuse channel, you can only blend with one Blend channel. (ie on a timeline warp from red to blue)
But what if that could be noded to 2 inputs so you could have 2 active Blend nodes. (ie warp from red, then to blue, then thirdly to green)
On iClone screen as is would get cramped as you then need to list multiple Blend-slots (ie Blend1, Blend2), but in a node-based scenario, you would have a grander map of real-estate to work with.
@animagic - OMG...please, I would never want it to be so needlessly complicated as Blender Eevee.
I mean, to have your node-layout on a material be complicated, in order to achieve a visual effect, is one thing.
But to make the node linking process itself needlessly complicated, even for a simple node function, is another.
PS - Substance Designer...anyone use it, is that still around...?
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By wires - 5 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (1/6/2019)
@animagic - OMG...please, I would never want it to be so needlessly complicated as Blender Eevee.
I mean, to have your node-layout on a material be complicated, in order to achieve a visual effect, is one thing.
But to make the node linking process itself needlessly complicated, even for a simple node function, is another.
PS - Substance Designer...anyone use it, is that still around...?
Maybe you should visit the SD web site, it's still being used by some of the best artists around today.   
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By justaviking - 5 Years Ago
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Interesting idea, but I would place it waaaaay down on the list of things to do.
Way below improvements to the native renderer, for example.
Anyone use Substance Designer? In the iClone community, it might be a limited audience, largely because it's hard for a one-man-studio to do everything. But SD is a major force in the AAA gaming community and an increasing force in the movie VFX industry.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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Actually Substance Designer winds up becoming a side discussion here, the reason being is that even if using it, in iClone you still only then have a single Blend node, as opposed to 2 blend nodes.
But why does this matter?
Because of animation - with 1 Blend node channel you only still have the ability to morph from red to blue over a timeline, not from Red, to blue, then to green.
In UE4, with its nodes, you could animate from Red to Blue, then to Green, in a timeline. (albeit the UE4 timeline I am referring to is really a sequence in a 'game-timeline').
So SD can offer all the material tweaking in the world, but it doesn't do any more than be the texture 1 or texture 2 in a timeline blend.
It itself doesn't create a texture 1, to texture 2, to texture 3 scenario, animatable over a timeline.
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By videodv - 5 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (1/6/2019)
Actually Substance Designer winds up becoming a side discussion here, the reason being is that even if using it, in iClone you still only then have a single Blend node, as opposed to 2 blend nodes.
But why does this matter?
Because of animation - with 1 Blend node channel you only still have the ability to morph from red to blue over a timeline, not from Red, to blue, then to green.
In UE4, with its nodes, you could animate from Red to Blue, then to Green, in a timeline. (albeit the UE4 timeline I am referring to is really a sequence in a 'game-timeline').
So SD can offer all the material tweaking in the world, but it doesn't do any more than be the texture 1 or texture 2 in a timeline blend.
It itself doesn't create a texture 1, to texture 2, to texture 3 scenario, animatable over a timeline.
You can use a Python script to morth more than 2 or 3 or more and animate over the timeline.
Regards
Chris.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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videodv (1/7/2019)
TonyDPrime (1/6/2019)
Actually Substance Designer winds up becoming a side discussion here, the reason being is that even if using it, in iClone you still only then have a single Blend node, as opposed to 2 blend nodes.
But why does this matter?
Because of animation - with 1 Blend node channel you only still have the ability to morph from red to blue over a timeline, not from Red, to blue, then to green.
In UE4, with its nodes, you could animate from Red to Blue, then to Green, in a timeline. (albeit the UE4 timeline I am referring to is really a sequence in a 'game-timeline').
So SD can offer all the material tweaking in the world, but it doesn't do any more than be the texture 1 or texture 2 in a timeline blend.
It itself doesn't create a texture 1, to texture 2, to texture 3 scenario, animatable over a timeline.
You can use a Python script to morth more than 2 or 3 or more and animate over the timeline. Regards Chris.
Well...By Pythonian logic I can do anything via script.
But this is not what I am looking for. Say, then I wanted to morph the Normal, and then AO, and the Glow, and the Bump, with multiple textures...it would be so much work to manage through Python....
But through a node map, it would be much easier.
I mean, honestly, could you imagine UE4 getting rid of its Node base layout for materials, and replacing it with Python scripting?....
Would its users just be like, "Oh, so much easier now!!!..."
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By justaviking - 5 Years Ago
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I'm unclear about the inability to blend texture 1 to texture 2 to texture 3 on the timeline using Substance Designer. You can make a wonderfully complex material and if you expose parameters, you can keyframe them on the timeline. What's missing?
You can also use Substance Designer to create a material that will "change over time," using the $TIME variable, and it will work in iClone. That's very cool for something like water caustics in a swimming pool.
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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A node-based system has programming behind it, which could include Python. The nodes are just the user interface and Python has no restrictions in that regard, as far as I know.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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justaviking (1/7/2019)
I'm unclear about the inability to blend texture 1 to texture 2 to texture 3 on the timeline using Substance Designer. You can make a wonderfully complex material and if you expose parameters, you can keyframe them on the timeline. What's missing?
You can also use Substance Designer to create a material that will "change over time," using the $TIME variable, and it will work in iClone. That's very cool for something like water caustics in a swimming pool.
Wait...what the....
Sounds like you are describing it, as if, Substance Designer interacts with iClone like a plugin? Like, on a realtime basis? Like, I can edit the material on the iClone timeline, and it will talk in realtime to Substance Designer to enact a 3rd texture...I have never seen a video or tutorial describe anything like you are mentioning.
Then I saw this, which is nothing like what UE4 can do with its nodes
https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php?topic=7565.0
Hey JAV...I'm not saying that you need to provide me with any answer on this at all. You are just giving an alternative, thank you.
But, this is a Wishful Feature....and I am not looking for the iClone community, at all, or on any level, to give an alternative.
Instead, I want to see RL be the one, to make the nodes....now.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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animagic (1/7/2019)
A node-based system has programming behind it, which could include Python. The nodes are just the user interface and Python has no restrictions in that regard, as far as I know.
No, I know, it could include Python...but that Python would require the nodes in the first place to do its Pythage anyway, so I am still imagining the node solution.
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By animagic - 5 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (1/8/2019)
animagic (1/7/2019)
A node-based system has programming behind it, which could include Python. The nodes are just the user interface and Python has no restrictions in that regard, as far as I know.No, I know, it could include Python...but that Python would require the nodes in the first place to do its Pythage anyway, so I am still imagining the node solution.
Tony, nodes have an underlying data structure and it doesn't really matter what it is programmed in (it may be easier in some languages than others). It is not nodes on the one hand and Python on the other.
What you see are just boxes with lines between them. There is no magic about that. Somebody has to give it functionality.
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By justaviking - 5 Years Ago
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@Tony - No, I am not talking about a direct link between Substance Designer and iClone. I'm talking about using .sbsar (Substance "Archive" files... non-editable "published" versions of the substances).
I'll work up a couple quick screen shots a bit later...
Added a bit later...
You can KEYFRAME substance "parameters" just like you can any other property, such as "Self Illumination" strength.
The parameters need to be "exposed" when the Substance is published.
Here there are no adjustable parameters...
Here you can see there are both "Basic" and "Advanced" parameters.
I advanced the timeline and changed the "Age" of the wood floor. See how it turned gray? Some parameters will change gradually, such as the age. Others are on/off switches, such as the "Batten" option, in which case they suddenly appear (like a Step function). Now it's just a matter of how sophisticated the Substance is.
I hope this helps some. If nothing else, at least you see what I'm talking about, even if you were hoping something more advanced that that.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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justaviking (1/8/2019)
@Tony - No, I am not talking about a direct link between Substance Designer and iClone. I'm talking about using .sbsar (Substance "Archive" files... non-editable "published" versions of the substances). I'll work up a couple quick screen shots a bit later...
Added a bit later... You can KEYFRAME substance "parameters" just like you can any other property, such as "Self Illumination" strength. The parameters need to be "exposed" when the Substance is published. Here there are no adjustable parameters... Here you can see there are both "Basic" and "Advanced" parameters. I advanced the timeline and changed the "Age" of the wood floor. See how it turned gray? Some parameters will change gradually, such as the age. Others are on/off switches, such as the "Batten" option, in which case they suddenly appear (like a Step function). Now it's just a matter of how sophisticated the Substance is. I hope this helps some. If nothing else, at least you see what I'm talking about, even if you were hoping something more advanced that that.
Hey JAV, thanks for everything. Yeah...it's what you were thinking at the end, I am looking for some interface that could even allow for a full blown blend from one whole texture input, to another 2nd whole texture input, then say also to a 3rd, or 4th, 5th, 6th...without the need for material ID and stuff...with even the ability to overlap all simultaneously, and then not simultaneously, in any order, at any point on the timeline.
The iClone SBSAR lets you tweak the look of a texture, but does not replace the texture fully to the point of a blended state like UE4 could, using UE4's blend modes like Add, Multiply, Subtract, Linear interpolate, etc.
It sounds complex, but the node operation lets you map the pieces out easier, I think at its base alone, the iClone menu interface just would get too cramped with all of this going on, even if it could be made to do it.
But thanks always. You know, the Substance Designer plugin does exist in UE4, so it actually allows for the stuff you are describing that iClone can do on the timeline, in addition to the benefits of the node layout. So it winds up being 2 things actually that you can compound together.
But a node layout would allow much more than blending overall, so it probably sounds like I am asking for a timeline blend, when I was really meaning to just describe a process that the node layout, if implemented, could allow for more simply as a visual UI.
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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animagic (1/8/2019)
TonyDPrime (1/8/2019)
animagic (1/7/2019)
A node-based system has programming behind it, which could include Python. The nodes are just the user interface and Python has no restrictions in that regard, as far as I know.No, I know, it could include Python...but that Python would require the nodes in the first place to do its Pythage anyway, so I am still imagining the node solution. Tony, nodes have an underlying data structure and it doesn't really matter what it is programmed in (it may be easier in some languages than others). It is not nodes on the one hand and Python on the other. What you see are just boxes with lines between them. There is no magic about that. Somebody has to give it functionality.
Hey Ani, yeah I know what you mean. They are different versions of the same process of arranging data which can then be processed towards a result.
For me, that is the Wishful Feature, to accomplish these things like UE4 has, in a Visual way, and then yeah you could then combo that also with the language/coding way.
It's kind of like someone asking for an Octane plugin in this forum, and then me saying, yeah, but you can export out and go to Blender, C4D, 3DS Max etc, and you can Octane it there.
And then that person would say, yeah I know that, but that *is* the Wishful Feature, to not have to do that, and not have to use the process of exporting out, etc...
In UE4 you don't need to use programming code to say accomplish a blend between 6 textures, like you could do with layers in Photoshop, because you have nodes.
So in UE4 with nodes, you could have 6 nodes with 6 different textures inputted to them, and blend them together, all at once, much like iClone's own Blend input channel allows for.
Except in this case with UE4 you can do it with with 6, as opposed to 2.
But here is the key thing, because people always say..."well, just blend in Photoshop"...right? And then yes you have your blended texture from 6 layers.
But you can't animate that over a timeline, individually.
Okay, but so even if you could do it through Python, now you have to code this....
So, the work here just takes too long, not fast like a node layout would allow for.
Kind of like this....
It's like Python becomes this Background process, that you have to work through, whereas with the nodes, you could more directly Render with iClone...
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By justaviking - 5 Years Ago
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In SD, you could create a material that's a blend of two (or 3 or 4) Substances, and have "Blend" parameters that allow you to do the blending you're talking about, and you could keyframe those blend values in iClone. But the list of which Substances are in the blend mix would have to be pre-determined in SD when you create that combo Substance.
A direct plug-in to SD like some game engines are doing would be cool, but honestly I think it would be overkill for 99.9% of the iClone user base. I am (or at least I was) reasonably skilled with SD, but to get good at it, you need to spend time in the application, and that means you're not spending your time animating.
Until iClone proves itself to be useful in a "team environment," an individual will spread his/her skills too thinly, and will end up being "unskilled" in a great many applications. That's the main reason I question the *value* of what you're suggesting. I like playing with all the toys, but that means I never get very good at Blender, I never get very good at Substance Designer and Substance Painter, I never get very good at GIMP, I never get very good at Python, I never get very good at Draw Plus, I never get very good at the iClone Curve Editor... I can do all those things, but by the time I start to get proficient at one, some of the other skills start to fade.
Last comment - Can you give me a good scenario where you'd want to "blend" different Substances, as opposed to using "variations" of a substance, such as "aging the wood" or increasing edge wear, etc. If you need to actually change the material from one to another, I imagine that would be treated like a wardrobe change for a character, and would very likely be in a difference scene, so starting a separate iClone project file would be the most obvious approach. Can you describe in more detail how you would use this ability if we had it?
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By TonyDPrime - 5 Years Ago
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justaviking (1/8/2019)
In SD, you could create a material that's a blend of two (or 3 or 4) Substances, and have "Blend" parameters that allow you to do the blending you're talking about, and you could keyframe those blend values in iClone. But the list of which Substances are in the blend mix would have to be pre-determined in SD when you create that combo Substance.
A direct plug-in to SD like some game engines are doing would be cool, but honestly I think it would be overkill for 99.9% of the iClone user base. I am (or at least I was) reasonably skilled with SD, but to get good at it, you need to spend time in the application, and that means you're not spending your time animating.
Until iClone proves itself to be useful in a "team environment," an individual will spread his/her skills too thinly, and will end up being "unskilled" in a great many applications. That's the main reason I question the *value* of what you're suggesting. I like playing with all the toys, but that means I never get very good at Blender, I never get very good at Substance Designer and Substance Painter, I never get very good at GIMP, I never get very good at Python, I never get very good at Draw Plus, I never get very good at the iClone Curve Editor... I can do all those things, but by the time I start to get proficient at one, some of the other skills start to fade.
Last comment - Can you give me a good scenario where you'd want to "blend" different Substances, as opposed to using "variations" of a substance, such as "aging the wood" or increasing edge wear, etc. If you need to actually change the material from one to another, I imagine that would be treated like a wardrobe change for a character, and would very likely be in a difference scene, so starting a separate iClone project file would be the most obvious approach. Can you describe in more detail how you would use this ability if we had it?
I think the nodes themselves go far beyond blending textures, it really does mean a higher speed UI scenario when it comes to texture animation/design within the app itself.
If SD can do that, I am interested to see what it can do, like I said, there are just not a lot of videos that really showcase this usage in iClone with SD.
But to the point of overkill, I mean....jeez, the whole doing 3D thing is a load of overkill! But, it's a labor of love, right?
But just to relate my point, it's one thing to mandate a change that everyone must use.
It's another to add features that one can use. I wouldn't think adding nodes would require anyone to use them, it could still be the same menu-driven interface, but then if you want you could expand out into nodes.
I mean, why bother questioning the value... the whole point of this thread is a Wishful feature thread.
I don't have to justify my wish to anyone, except RL here - I say the fact that Eevee, Unity, and UE4 have nodes show that it is not in fact overkill.
The fact that iClone does not have it is underkill.
When it would be tested/released, sure, rip it to all hell for what you don't like about it.
And, if it can't function correctly, or some supposed background feature of it keeps on causing issues, and requires multiple incarnations to get it right, and consumes its user base in testing, while seemingly producing zero results, then yes, it probably sucks and was a bad idea to begin with....it would deserve to be trashed.
But, if you have ever seen Photoshop blend more than 2 layers you at base will understand the value of blending any theoretic chain of textures.
And imagine you could animate them, in concert with a python script. Screens, digital interfaces, bump maps, glow effects...I mean, not just diffuse maps alone, either, it could be any texture input channel expanding into nodes.
Anyway, good fun discussing.
On another note-
RL - DO IT NOW...
NODES...
NOW!!!
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