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By jarretttowe - 6 Years Ago
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I have some money I can spend on mocap, but I want to make sure that it is spent effectively.
Can someone show me the way? I don't have an iphone capable of the face app. I DO have a high-performance laptop with a webcam. I DO have a Kinect 1 and a Kinect 2 sitting unused in my house.
I am hoping someone can enlighten me on which solutions are the most complete and cost effective.
Thank you!
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By jarretttowe - 6 Years Ago
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Ok...it looks like 79$ gets me body capture with my kinect 2.
99$ gets me hand capture with a leap controller.
Is there an economical way to do facial capture?
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Good, easy, cheap. Pick any two.
The good cheap way is to do it by hand, but it's not easy. The cheap easy way you've already found (those two plugins) but it won't be any good.
I can tell you LOTS of good easy ways but they aren't cheap. Sorry.
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By jarretttowe - 6 Years Ago
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Well, I didn't say cheap lol. I said I wanted to be cost effective.
It looks like there are only two games in town for facial capture in iclone -- faceware and the live face software for iphone x series.
I think using the leap and kinect gets me into the mocap game for the lowest cost, and it is easy as you said. It would let me learn, most of all, and plan a logical upgrade path as I understand which suits/software are best for mocap.
What is the cheapest good and easy suit system?
Thank you for your advice!
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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I only said that because I've been ALL through that. I think I've bought just about every mocap solution there has been for iClone. I started off with the RL Kinect plugin -- worthless. I then went to Brekel's -- acceptable for upper body movement (as long as you stay facing the Kinect) but worthless for legs or any movement where the arms cross the body. I *finally* went to iPisoft, for the only Kinect solution that actually DOES work, but it requires at least two Kinects and a subscription (I *think* they finally came up with a purchase price version last year). I was so invested in this I bought four or five Kinects when they stopped making them (still new and in their boxes, along with the components to hook to the PC -- I will eBay these someday when I think of it).
But it's a LOT of work -- just capturing it requires a very specific setup (the cameras have to be aimed just right, you can't have too big or too small an area, the lighting has to be just so, the calibration is a PITA, you need two PCs to run it because you can only run one Kinect per PC so you network them together) and then cleaning up afterwards takes a lot of work. I got to where I dreaded capture.
So I investigated other solutions and... let's just say I ended up with the Perception Neuron suit (but without the Motion Live plugin, which you don't need) and I think it's perfect (if I were starting again from scratch I'd also look at the Rokoko suit -- when I look for a second suit that will be what I try first, as I want two suits for interactions). It's around 1.5k and just works -- all my zombie stuff was done with that (so you can look and see) and I did that in less than 30 minutes with no cleanup. I also use Leap for finger motion -- that works well and IS relatively inexpensive.
For face capture I have both Facegen and Live Face, and I can tell you that Live Face works better. Knowing what I know now, I'd buy the iPhone XR and Live face, as the cheapest facial capture system (under 1K for a superb system). My iPhone X works great with it, too, but with the XR going for only $750 it's a great way to go. Again, all my zombie stuff was done with Live Face (I don't even use Facegen anymore, although I spent around 1.5k for it. Sigh).
With all that I have I finally feel I can rest easy when it comes to mocap (although, as I said, I'm going to get ONE more suit so I can do two people at the same time. There are times when nothing else will do).
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By jarretttowe - 6 Years Ago
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Now THAT was an awesome post. That spells it out for me quite well. The Rokoko suit will be do-able in the near future. The Leap is so cheap it is a no-brainer. The iphone solution is probably going to happen soon too. Thanks so much for breaking it all down for me.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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I'm glad my pain could be of help -- jk, but I wouldn't want anyone to go through what I have done in the last three years trying to find a good solution.
The good news is this stuff DOES work and does so tremendously, so it was worth all my effort to get it right. I just wish I could have skipped some of the process.
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By jarretttowe - 6 Years Ago
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It looks like the suit you have is around 1500$ while the rokoko is about 2500$. I think I would probably have to go with the 1500$ unit, since that extra $1000 would pay for the facial system lol.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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The PN works fine -- the only reason I want to explore the Rokoko is that it IS a suit (and thus a bit easier to put on, although now I'm pretty quick with putting the PN on. I wrote elsewhere but the first time I did was about like the first time I ever put on a condom -- WAY too much trouble and almost made me forget the whole enterprise. Except I didn't and I'm glad I didn't). I can now get the PN on in about five minutes but the first time was like 40. Sigh.
I would also, however, recommend getting the magnetic case. All of these capture suits with magnetic sensors can have issues with magnetization. With the case I haven't had any issues but others have reported issues without it. Just a FYI.
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By kungphu - 6 Years Ago
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I can vouch for KT’s info. I went the same route. Kinect (which was worthless), Berkeley which was barely useable. Instead of paying the iPSoft premium I went first gen PN and got one of their first suits. Not perfect but very usable. I went with the iclone plunging since it really helped with my workflow. I can record live movements real-time in iclone as the actors move around the screen. So I make sure character don’t bump into each other and can stage simple fight scenes easily. I have a PN pro suit as well and the motion leap plug for fingers. I’ve used it a handful of times so can’t give a thorough review of it, however I have another 48hr film festival this weekend and will be putting the PN Pro with leap fingers workflow through its proper paces. I also have FaceWare and Liveface or whateve the iPhone is called. Both have their strengths, but if you have an iPhone... liveface is a no brianer. FaceWare is a PiTA to get switched over to a new computer. The iPhone solution is super convenient. I was traveling out of country and brought my laptop and already had my phone. Had a nice mocap session in my hotel. Super convenient. Not sure if the pricing but it used to be way cheaper as well. I’ll let everyone know what happens with the PN Pro this weekend. Fingers crossed for a great mocap session!
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By jarretttowe - 6 Years Ago
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Thanks, this is all great information. I have cancelled my kinect adapter order and decided to dump my available cash into trading my iphone in for an XR and the facial software for it and get a leap, then start saving for a mocap suit.
One question though...is kinect supported directly in the newest iClone? I notice there is a button for starting a mocap device. I am curious what that is for? Is it just that the kinect plug-in is now integrated?
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By jarretttowe - 6 Years Ago
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And a bigger question...are there any iClone users in South Carolina or Atlanta? We need to start a mo-cap suit co-op lol!
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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There's a lot of distance between South Carolina and Atlanta -- about the same between Atlanta and Orlando (where I'm at). <g>.
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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jarretttowe (11/8/2018)
One question though...is kinect supported directly in the newest iClone? I notice there is a button for starting a mocap device. I am curious what that is for? Is it just that the kinect plug-in is now integrated?
In an earlier post Peter (RL) mentioned that Kinect will not be integrated in Motion Live. I don't believe that has changed.
You can still use it separately, but the performance is as it was in iClone 6, so not very good.
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By The-any-Key - 6 Years Ago
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@Kelleytoons
Whenever you get the Rokoko suit. I would be very interested into knowing if it is better/less trouble compare to the PN.
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By jarretttowe - 6 Years Ago
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I'm in Greenville, SC, Mike. An hour and a half from Atlanta. I would gladly share custody of a suit with someone. I'm just now picturing me meeting someone in a McDonald's parking lot as we swap off our suit for two weeks at a time, always leaving the scene with bitterness in our hearts lol.
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By pcdude40 - 6 Years Ago
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Wow! After reading this all the air just went out of my sails! *sigh
I just purchased a Kinect a few weeks ago thinking that this solution would work for Mocap but after reading your long dissertation about how it "sucks" I'm depressed. What a major let down. I could probably afford the more luxurious solution but I really can't justify the cost, $1500!
So you say the Kinect doesn't work AT ALL? It's upsetting that Reallusion would sell a plugin AND sell a solution only to hear that it doesn't work, or maybe it's just not a perfect solution. I'm just a hobbyist so if it works half as good as the perfect solution then I'm okay with that, I was just trying to save myself some money purchasing Mocap animations but I'm also okay with doing that too if it means I'll be getting something better than what the Kinect can provide.
The video that RL advertises is that it IS a viable solution which is the ONLY reason I decided to try it. I'm still going to give it a go hoping that I will get something positive out of it but I'm skeptical right now after reading all the negativity about it, sadly. Does RL provide a refund if it doesn't work as advertised? $79 won't break the bank but I could have just used it for ready made Mocap animations or another solution that may work better like the iPSoft solution but then you said you need more than one Kinect for it to work properly yet that's not what they advertise as the only solution.
Hmm, comments, suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
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By Peter (RL) - 6 Years Ago
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pcdude40 (11/9/2018)
So you say the Kinect doesn't work AT ALL? It's upsetting that Reallusion would sell a plugin AND sell a solution only to hear that it doesn't work, or maybe it's just not a perfect solution.
It is totally inaccurate to say Kinect Mocap doesn't work at all. Kinect Mocap can give decent results providing you understand the limitations of using a one camera system. You are not going to be able to perform 360 degree spins, or capture arms and legs crossing each other, but for simple front facing mocap it can work quite well.
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By jarretttowe - 6 Years Ago
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I have decided to go with the kinect system for now, and direct the rest of my money into the leap/iphone solutions. It gets me to a complete (if lower quality) motion capture solution the fastest. By the time I have perfected using those, hopefully I will have saved up enough for the pro suit!
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By pcdude40 - 6 Years Ago
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Thank you for this Peter! I realize that for some this solution may not cover all of their needs but for me, I'm just looking for some simple body movements just like what it shows in the promo video. Walking, jumping, arm movements. Maybe when I upgrade my phone I will invest in the motion live plugin for iPhone and I could take advantage of the facemocap feature but for now I'm just hoping this will suffice. Otherwise I will be happy to purchase some ready made Mocap animations as well. Investing in a more elaborate motion capture solution would not interest me at the moment but I could see the need if I really needed some custom motions, but then maybe someone reading this would be willing to make some for those of us who don't own the better solution and yes I would pay for it. 
Is there a good tutorial on using the Kinect that RL has put together so I can get the best out of the plugin? I haven't searched for one just yet, I'm just asking.
And if anyone else reads this and has had a positive experience and tips that would certainly be great too!
Thanks again Peter!
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By kungphu - 6 Years Ago
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For me, you’re better off learning how to use stock motions, break and mangle then alter them via keyframing and curves than using the Kinect. While Peter is tehlchnically right, we’re dumping on it pretty hard. But yeah, there’s a reason no one talks about it positively here. The results aren’t worth the time from the people that have tried using it. You’ll be better off learning skills as I mentioned above IMHO. The results will be great and you’ll be learning valuable skills as well.
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By pcdude40 - 6 Years Ago
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Hello! If you wouldn't mind keeping me posted with your progress and maybe share some of the motion capture you were able to achieve with the Kinect system. I haven't yet purchased the plugin for it just yet otherwise I would also share my thoughts and experience with it.
Thanks!
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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I'm with Kungfu -- I think going down the Kinect road, no matter what software you use to drive it, just will end in disappointment.
But I guess if you keep your expectations VERY low you won't be disappointed. You will never get accurate movements, nor fast ones, nor (as even Peter says) movements that involve turning or even crossing your arms or legs. If you keep your body positioned directly in front of the kinect and your arms and legs directly in front you should be able to get usable stuff but think about what that means. If you stand in front of a mirror and try this you will see what you will have to do and what you can't. It's just the limitation of the hardware itself -- you will spend a LOT of time trying to clean up problems that will be introduced otherwise and, as KP notes, time that probably would be better spent just learning how to use and create motions on your own without a mocap solution.
The other thing that happens is what happens in general with animation (or really anything you learn in life) -- the more you do, the better you want to be. So you might say, "Hey, I can capture this arm motion -- cool!" but then you want two arms. Okay, but then you want to cross them and then... Or you start off moving VERY slowly and it works and then you think "but I should be able to move faster, or have my feet track better and..." You will very quickly outgrow the Kinect -- every single one of us has. I doubt whether you can find more than one person who has not (I think there is one on this forum who, using a two Kinect system, is still very happy). I was until I just got very tired of all the work involved and some day I'm sure he will upgrade as well. It just depends on your needs and level of enthusiasm about this hobby.
If I were young, starting off, I would certainly start with a Kinect again, and probably even RL's software. But I would also quickly move on.
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By Lamias - 6 Years Ago
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The other thing that happens is what happens in general with animation (or really anything you learn in life) -- the more you do, the better you want to be. So you might say, "Hey, I can capture this arm motion -- cool!" but then you want two arms. Okay, but then you want to cross them and then... Or you start off moving VERY slowly and it works and then you think "but I should be able to move faster, or have my feet track better and..." You will very quickly outgrow the Kinect -- every single one of us has. I doubt whether you can find more than one person who has not (I think there is one on this forum who, using a two Kinect system, is still very happy). I was until I just got very tired of all the work involved and some day I'm sure he will upgrade as well. It just depends on your needs and level of enthusiasm about this hobby.
This is very true in my opinion. I was very excited about the kinect plugin, but that excitement lasted for about a week give or take (due to jerky results and the aforementioned restrictions). Then I went to a single kinect using Ipi Soft, which gave me 4-5 months of excitement (due to clean motions, which I thought they weren't possible), but then I outgrew it as well because I wanted to move in space, which is a totally justified thing to want. I am now in the 2 kinect + ipi phase, which I don't expect to last very long, since I am already saving money for the PN Pro suit.
The guys are right for me. Kinects are too much work to set up and capture, too much work to clean up the motions afterwards, and they don't offer as many details (e.g. fingers). When I first started I was happy with them, but progressively I wanted more. It's not a terrible request to want to portray real life movements and not having to spend 3-4 hours for a 5-10 second motion, while seeing the results not coming off as you had imagined due to these restrictions.
The question is: do you have that request from your animations? If not, you may want to start from the simplest solutions which offer simple results, and if you are not happy you can work your way towards the more costly but immensely more rewarding ones.
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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There was one member, Jason Brown, who was quite positive about the Kinect and has reported about it on the forum. He's not around much anymore, but he might chime in.
I haven't unpacked and set up my Kinect since I moved, so maybe I should try again. We have the Curve Editor now, which I think is essential just for cleanup.
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By waleshire - 6 Years Ago
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I'm in NE Atlanta. I do not have Mocap but it's been on my mind. I'm still learning a lot about iClone but definitely interested in ways to streamline the development process...
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By pcdude40 - 6 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (11/9/2018)
I'm with Kungfu -- I think going down the Kinect road, no matter what software you use to drive it, just will end in disappointment.
But I guess if you keep your expectations VERY low you won't be disappointed. You will never get accurate movements, nor fast ones, nor (as even Peter says) movements that involve turning or even crossing your arms or legs. If you keep your body positioned directly in front of the kinect and your arms and legs directly in front you should be able to get usable stuff but think about what that means. If you stand in front of a mirror and try this you will see what you will have to do and what you can't. It's just the limitation of the hardware itself -- you will spend a LOT of time trying to clean up problems that will be introduced otherwise and, as KP notes, time that probably would be better spent just learning how to use and create motions on your own without a mocap solution.
The other thing that happens is what happens in general with animation (or really anything you learn in life) -- the more you do, the better you want to be. So you might say, "Hey, I can capture this arm motion -- cool!" but then you want two arms. Okay, but then you want to cross them and then... Or you start off moving VERY slowly and it works and then you think "but I should be able to move faster, or have my feet track better and..." You will very quickly outgrow the Kinect -- every single one of us has. I doubt whether you can find more than one person who has not (I think there is one on this forum who, using a two Kinect system, is still very happy). I was until I just got very tired of all the work involved and some day I'm sure he will upgrade as well. It just depends on your needs and level of enthusiasm about this hobby.
If I were young, starting off, I would certainly start with a Kinect again, and probably even RL's software. But I would also quickly move on.
Thanks for this response. Lots to chew on here. Like always you have a wealth of information so I really appreciate your feedback.
I guess the sad thing is I've already purchased the Kinect and after reading all the sour notes I'm reluctant to even waste my time trying. When I watched the promo video on the Kinect and the plugin it looked really good and I got excited. But like all of you who have responded with your comments I'm pretty sure that like all of you I will end up being disappointed. I'm working on a personal project of mine that is more catwalk type moves, maybe some sexy moves, head turns, things of this nature. You see most of these in music videos or makeup commercials.
But if the Kinect isn't going to accomplish any of this then I'm wasting my time. Unfortunately I just don't find a lot of what I'm looking for out there that looks REALISTIC. Some of the moves look fake and fabricated.
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By Kelleytoons - 6 Years Ago
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Assuming you *just* bought the plugin you can still return it and get your money back (I think 14 days is their policy). But if it's after that, I would at least try it if I were you. For one thing it will give you a pretty good idea of just how mocap works, regardless of the success. I don't think there's ANYTHING I've done in life I didn't learn something from, and this is no exception. What you *can* do is that if you find it isn't working for you to not waste too much of your time trying to get it fixed, because it won't be you that is the problem.
And if you do have the curve editor you can also explore that. Again, there is value gained in all of these things. The only thing I would caution you against is not to beat yourself up over this in any way shape or form (including even the decision to go this route). Heck, *I* went that route -- I bought it as well, and I did get *some* things out of it (it worked for my "TV hosts" where all you really saw was their upper bodies facing directly into the camera).
(I'm suffering from a bad migraine right now and may be repeating myself -- but the important facts are to keep trying. We always keep getting better and this is exactly how. If you never try but just listen to others and think "well, I won't try THAT" you'll just never know. And now I've got to lay down).
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