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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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I was following a tutorial to animate morphs in iClone. The tutorial was using iClone 7 and CC2, which I am using CC3 instead. I did as follows:
1. Load character in iClone 2. Press the "Edit in Character Creator" button 3. Apply morphs and export as iAvatar 4. Back to iClone, open Morph Creator, which sends the character there 5. Click the "+" button and load previously exported iAvatar
At this point I get an error message claiming that the bone scale doesn't match the character, and the morphs might not work as expected. Indeed the morphs didn't work as expected.
I wonder why this happens? Any ideas?
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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When you create a morph in CC you are given a choice at the bottom to have the bones resize with the morph:
So if you are the one creating these morphs you need to checkmark this box. If they are existing morphs they didn't do this, but you can create a new one and then use that instead.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Thanks for the feedback!
The character morph is my original, and the skeleton was adjusted when I created the dial in CC3. I have double-checked in CC3, and the skeleton is following the morph properly, or otherwise the character wouldn't pose correctly. However, the body morphs I am trying to animate are existing ones, and they don't change the skeleton joint positions or size. Yet, I still get the error message in Morph Creator,so I am stuck.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Yeah, now that I tried it I remembered -- I think this is a bug in iClone. It doesn't seem to support CC3 morphs properly. I don't think you can get ANY of them to work (you always get this message and they never deform properly).
I should probably submit it to the FT.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Oh I see. So it works with CC2 morphs, but not with CC3. Darn, so I can't animate spring bones in the timeline, and I can't use Morph Creator/Animator to compensate for that. Or perhaps there is a way to manually keyframe spring bones from the CC3 figure, but I don't know how to do it?
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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I never use spring bones so I can't help you there (but someone here surely will -- perhaps Rampa will jump in).
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Okay, I just tried and it seems string bones work just fine with CC3 avatars.
You "animate" the effects by turning them on and off (that's how all spring bones are "animated", as the settings do the rest). So I'm not sure what your problem is.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Oh, I know they work fine as automatically animated by spring dynamics, but I have to *MANUALLY* animate them in the *TIMELINE* with *MANUAL* keyframes to get the effect I need. I got a commission job where at one part of the animation, the character does some pectoral flexing. We cannot do muscle flexing with springs. Therefore I need to either get control of the pectoral spring bones, or animate them with morphs, which at the moment is out of the question since CC3 characters apparently can't work with iClone morphs.
So it looks like I can't get it done one way or the other, even when it's something as simple as a pectoral muscle flexing. That's the thing about commission jobs - people ask us for things we would never have thought of ourselves.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Gotcha, but you can always drop back to previous versions, right?
Sometimes with paid work it's never a good idea to work with the most current version (the "bleeding edge") as it takes a while for the bugs to get straightened out (when I was working I know we NEVER upgraded any software we used in production. We were always one version behind and it always paid off for us).
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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You are absolutely right, but I need Transformer to be able to use the character the client wants in iClone. That puts me in a tight corner. Going back to CC2 will not help me in this case.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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If it's a Daz character that's not true -- you can bring them in via XChange (and have been for quite some time).
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By Rampa - 7 Years Ago
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It only supports morphing meshes, so bones are ignored.
See these videos:
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Ah, that makes sense. A bit (too bad it doesn't support whole body morphs, for character changes like someone might change into a werewolf, but at least you can do what the OP wants to do just fine).
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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The morphs I am using don't change the skeleton, so should I assume CC3 morphs are simply incompatible with iClone Morph Creator?
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By Rampa - 7 Years Ago
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I have not figured out why that's happening for you yet. I just sent a CC3 morph through though, with no errors. In fact, it was was originally the Dawn figure exported from DAZ. Then I bulged the arms using CC3 morphs, and saved the iAvater to load as a morph in Morph Creator.
We need to figure out what we are doing differently.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Oh Ok, that eliminates the chance of CC3 morphs being incompatible with iClone. Then it must be something else. My character uses HW Dawn as well, and the morphs are BreastUp (left and right), BreastSway (left and right), and BreastDown (left and right). None of them affects the skeleton size. I am not sure if these morphs will replicate the requested "pectoral flexing" effect, but I was going to start from there when I got the "bone scale" error message, and couldn't proceed from there.
Does it make a difference if the character was imported with Transformer and sent directly to iClone as an iAvatar, OR if the character morph was FIRST saved as a dialed in CC3?
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By Rampa - 7 Years Ago
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Once it is transformed, there is no difference from any other CC3 base, accept for UV and texture if you chose to bake those on import.
I'll specifically test breast morphs.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Wow thanks, that will be very helpful! Let me know how it goes. :)
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By Rampa - 7 Years Ago
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Hi Ken,
Here is a quick video of making some body changes I put together.
But those breast morph names look more like the DAZ morph names. So are you transforming different versions of Dawn to use as different morphs?
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Basically the difference between what you did and what I did was that:
1. My Dawn was already morphed when sent her to CC3 to create the extra morphs to animate.
2. I have used the breast morphs from Hivewire3D, and you used from the default CC3 figure.
All the rest was the same, except that you could import the iAvatars as morph targets, and I got the error message about the wrong bone scale.
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By Rampa - 7 Years Ago
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Took a while to track that down, as I am only sort-of DAZ knowledgable.
Those breast adjustments are in the "Posing" panel rather than the "Shaping" panel. So they are bone adjustments, and that's why they do not transfer.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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I did some testing in CC3, first showing the default figure skeleton, and then moving the Hivewire breast morph dials. No bone moves, which makes sense, since these are just mesh shapes. I would actually be surprised to see any bone changing when we use a breast shape dial, no matter who makes it. This was a simple test suggested by the guy who made the video tutorial I was following, to know how to recognize morphs that will not work with this.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Today I have created a new character, now using Genesis 8 Female from DS, and ended up with the same "bone scale" error when I tried using Morph Creator. The previous attempt was with HW Dawn. I don't seem to be able to create morphs for characters created with Transformer in iClone.
**UPDATE: After getting the "bone scale" error message, the morphs still load and appear as dials. However, they malfunction on the figure, but work fine on the clothing. That's curious.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Ok, I ran another test. Instead of importing a character from DS using Transformer, I have tried straight with the default CC3 figure. Still getting the same "Bone scale" error, so this proves the issue is not caused by anything Transformer does. The problem might be with the morphs from Hivewire.
With yet another test, I have checked that possibility. This time I have used the "essentials" morphs, which don't have what I need, but these are not from the Hivewire Dawn morphs. Surprise - now the morphs work, which also explain why Rampa's test (video posted above) has worked, while mine have failed. Rampa was not using the same morphs set.
With another test, I have loaded back my custom morphed character imported from Transformer, and created another morph to export, this time from the Hivewire set, but a full body one instead of the pectoral I was initially needing. Here again, the morph only works on the clothing, and malfunctions on the figure itself. This might be a bug with the Hivewire morphs that need revising? They don't work with Morph Creator, while the morphs from the Essentials pack do.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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The Essentials morphs do not include the ones I need for this job, but the Hivewire set does. Since the HW morphs seem to be incompatible with Morph Maker, I have tried exporting the shapes as OBJ instead of iAvatar. When back into Morph Maker, I can import the OBJ with no errors, but.... they spike out the figure when dialed, showing that the vertex order was not preserved.
I went back to CC3 and checked the OBJ exporting options. I can choose to export full body or just body. I have tried both options, and when I load it in Morph Maker, the figure again spikes up, so those options don't seem to have any effect on this issue. Unless I am missing something, it appears that OBJs exported from CC3 cannot be used as morph targets in iClone Morph Maker. Chances are (I am guessing here) that the character models are decimated to reduce poly count when exported from CC3 to iClone, which might be the source for the morph target incompatibility.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Ok, so whatever is happening with the Hivewire morphs pack, exporting to iAvatar generates the "bone scale" error, and exporting as OBJ spikes up the figure in iClone due to vertex order not being preserved. I then checked if I can export to OBJ in iClone, which would resolve the problem because it already has the correct vertex order. Unfortunately iClone can only export Alembic or FBX - no option for OBJ. Under closer examination, Morph Maker does have an option to export to OBJ, and I gave it a try. Ok, now the morph targets load correctly, and work in both the figure and the clothing. Success!
However, this makes it necessary to pass each morph target I want to create through 3 programs:
1. CC3 to set the morph on the figure, then export to iClone
2. It's now in iClone, but it can't export to OBJ, so export to Morph Creator.
3. It's now in Morph Creator, so export to OBJ morph target
4. Back to iClone, load your character back, and load it into Morph Creator
5. Load the previously created OBJ morph target. Now everything works!
Now rinse and repeat this for EVERY morph target you need in your animation. TEDIOUS and time-consuming, but it's a workaround until the issue is resolved.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Hmmm -- just last night a user reported an issue with head morphs using the G8 female that I was able to reproduce. I'll see if I can get this one as well and then write them all up, because there are definitely some issues with morphs in CC3.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Thank you, Kelleytoons! In my tests, I could only identify the issue when trying to create morph targets using the morphs from the Hivewire bundle package. Others seem to work as expected, but of course, I haven't tested ALL of them. Based on my test results, you should be able to reproduce the "Bone scale" error when using any of the Hivewire Dawn/Dusk morphs.
At least I have this workaround from above so my commission job won't hit a brick wall. Any ideas WHY OBJ morph targets exported from CC3 don't work in iClone? It obviously has the wrong vertex order (model spikes up). Is that how it was supposed to be?
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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My understanding (limited as it might be) is that importing any of the types that can be imported via Transformer (so Daz Genesis, Poser V4/M4, Hivewire Dawn/Dusk) are essentially remapped to the CC3 base avatar. At that point, with the CC3 remapped, anything you do with it SHOULD work exactly the same as anything else.
But... We know that isn't/wasn't true with the Genesis 3 Female, for example. For some reason the remapping into CC3 screwed things up (which they have fixed. I think. I know they were going to, and this old brain can't quite remember if that patch has been released yet). And now this user is reporting there are issues with the G8 female. And you are reporting issues with the Hivewire female (damn women -- the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems).
I'm going to thoroughly investigate all of this and try to get a handle on what's going on so I can report it properly. The devs are pretty good at responding, so I'm confident if we can put together a definitive synopsis of what all is happening they can fix it. I've said this elsewhere, but there is only so much they can test, and so things like this come up and we have to help them in this regard. But I'll keep you (and everyone) posted by starting a new topic once I suss all this out (most likely some time tomorrow -- today was a tennis day and wore me out).
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Oh I see, there is definitely a pattern there. But when it comes to Transformer, I did a test using only the base CC3 figure (nothing imported through Transformer), and I still got the "bone scale" error when trying to use the Hivewire Dawn morphs sold at the Reallusion Content store (not converted from DS) in iClone's Morph Creator. The problem happened straight from the official HW morphs released by RL - nothing to do with Transformer in this case. The way the HW morphs were packed by RL, they are incompatible with iClone morphs.
Now back to my previous question, were OBJ morph targets exported from CC3 supposed to spike out the figure when imported in iClone's Morph Creator? I really need to know this. :)
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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ken_1171 (11/9/2018)
Chances are (I am guessing here) that the character models are decimated to reduce poly count when exported from CC3 to iClone, which might be the source for the morph target incompatibility.
I checked, and the polycount stays exactly the same. Which makes sense as you need to be able to go back and forth between CC and iClone.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I did a test with morphs I created with a converted G8 figure and I get the same result: the morphs spike in iClone. So something is indeed wrong.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (11/10/2018)
ken_1171 (11/9/2018)
Chances are (I am guessing here) that the character models are decimated to reduce poly count when exported from CC3 to iClone, which might be the source for the morph target incompatibility. I checked, and the polycount stays exactly the same. Which makes sense as you need to be able to go back and forth between CC and iClone.
The number of vertexes may be the same, but the order might not be preserved, which would explain the models spiking out. Can you use OBJs exported from CC3 as morph targets in iClone's Morph Maker? In my tests, I could use OBJs exported from Morph Maker, but not from CC3.
animagic (11/10/2018)
I did a test with morphs I created with a converted G8 figure and I get the same result: the morphs spike in iClone. So something is indeed wrong.
I assume you are referring to OBJs exported from CC3, right? Over here they spike out models if used as morph targets in iClone. My bet is that CC3 is not preserving the vertex order. I just don't know if this is how it's supposed to be, or if it's a bug because I am new to iClone.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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The morphs I used were created based on OBJ files exported from CC3, because that seems to be the issue.
There is no reason why vertex order should change in iClone. The whole point is that integrity of the model is maintained in order to be able to go back and forth between iClone and CC. In fact, you can actually send a CC3 character imported into iClone back to CC and the morphs will work again, as expected.
What I think is the problem is that traditionally iClone has worked with triangles and that the Morph Creator has not been updated to work with meshes including quads.
Anyway, it should work, so you definitely discovered a bug.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (11/10/2018)Anyway, it should work, so you definitely discovered a bug.
That's good to know, because the workaround is very tedious, having to pass the model over through 3 programs to get a valid morph target. And all this because exporting CC3 morph targets to iAvatar is not working either. I mean, it works with some morphs, but not with others. It appears that it doesn't work for morphs coming from Genesis 8 Female and Hivewire figures, where exporting to OBJ or iAvatar will produce invalid morph targets for Morph Creator.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I just watched a tutorial by Rampa. Instead of OBJ files he uses iAvatar files and is able to create and animate a morph.
EDIT: I'm sorry, I just read through the thread again and saw that Rampa posted this as part of the discussion.
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (11/15/2018)
I just watched a tutorial by Rampa. Instead of OBJ files he uses iAvatar files and is able to create and animate a morph.
If you want to reproduce the "bone scale" error, this is not about the HW embedded Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna or the Gorilla that ship with CC. It's about the Hivewire morph bundles for these figures (Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna or the Gorilla), and you have to purchase these separately from the RL content store. Rampa simply used the default CC3 morphs (not the Hivewire bundle ones, which are sold separately), and therefore didn't encounter the issues I have described.
There are reports that the same was happening with Genesis 3 Female, and that it is supposedly already patched, but there are new reports regarding the "bone scale" error also happening with the Genesis 8 Female as well, but I can't confirm that.
As far as I know, CC3 OBJ export is broken (doesn't preserve vertex order), and exporting to iAvatar doesn't work when using morphs from the packages mentioned above. It seems to work with all other morphs - just not these I have mentioned.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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So I created a morph for Dawn in CC3 (from the morph pack, which I have).
I exported the morph as iAvatar, and I do get the bone scale error in Morph Creator like you mentioned. Other than that though, the morph does work as far as I can tell and animates also.
EDIT: I'm sorry again... you already did all this...:blush:
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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In my experience, once I get the "bone scale" error, the morph gets distorted on the figure, but still works Ok on the clothing. It appears that only the CC3 figure is affected. The clothing seem to be immune for some reason. At least 1 other person has confirmed this so far.
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By 4u2ges - 7 Years Ago
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Spikes out of OBJ are not caused by incorrect vertex order but rather by discrepancy in faces mapping. It could be fixed by editing OBJ, but there another problem - a slight offset in OBJ by Y and Z out of CC3 (compare to OBJ from Morph Creator) and that is impossible to fix.
So workaround:
1. Bring both non-morphed and morphed avatars to iClone in T-pose (from CC3)
2. Send morphed avatar to Morph Creator and export ALL as OBJ. Delete it from iClone
3. Next, send non-morphed avatar to Morph Creator and apply Exported OBJ in Step 2 as a Morph
4. Bake all morphs together.
5. Update morph to iClone (to remaining non-morphed avatar)
Bring next morphed avatar from CC with different morph (or group of morphs applied) and repeat steps 2-5
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Thank you, but I have already posted a 5-steps workaround a few posts above. I have used it myself to get around the "bone scale" error, so I don't get stuck on the project. It's more work, but there is no other way until RL fixes these issues.
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By 4u2ges - 7 Years Ago
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Cool. I did not see that one :)
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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I thought it would be useful if I presented the problem and a workaround solution. I thought it would help others who got stuck not being able to finish their animations involving morphs, depending which they were trying to use. This became frustrating because I couldn't export morph targets from CC3 with OBJ (somehow broken export), or iAvatar ("bone scale" error). iClone also cannot export OBJs, so I have to open Morph Creator, having to pass the model through 3 programs to get a valid morph target (CC, iClone and Morph Creator). It's tedious, but it works.
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By Peter (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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ken_1171 (11/5/2018)
I was following a tutorial to animate morphs in iClone. The tutorial was using iClone 7 and CC2, which I am using CC3 instead. I did as follows:
1. Load character in iClone 2. Press the "Edit in Character Creator" button 3. Apply morphs and export as iAvatar 4. Back to iClone, open Morph Creator, which sends the character there 5. Click the "+" button and load previously exported iAvatar
At this point I get an error message claiming that the bone scale doesn't match the character, and the morphs might not work as expected. Indeed the morphs didn't work as expected.
I wonder why this happens? Any ideas?
The process has changed since the release of iClone 7.3 / CC3 and there are some limitations now. Please see the page below and follow the new guidelines there for your particular 3D tool.
http://manual.reallusion.com/iClone_7/ENU/Pro/Default.htm#iClone_7/Pro_7.0/08_Animation/Morph_Animation/Creating_Morph_Sliders.htm
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By ken_1171 - 7 Years Ago
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Hi Peter, thanks for the feedback! I think you have misunderstood what the problem in this thread is about. I am trying to avoid repeating myself so many times, but let me explain.
I am not trying to import custom morphs made in other applications. It's much simpler than that. I am trying to animate the morphs that come with the Hivewire character morph bundles (for Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna and Gorilla), sold at the RL content store, and that show up in CC3 after installed. Another important factor is that NONE of the morphs I am trying to animate move or resize any bones - they are simple mesh morphs. There are some that do scale the skeleton, but I am not trying to animate those. I know those in particular will not work with Morph Creator.
Having that said, exporting these morphs to iAvatar from CC3 end up with the "bone scale" error, and the morphs end up distorted and unusable. It works on the clothing, but not on the figure. Exporting to OBJ morphs targets from CC3 cause the figure to spike out in Morph Creator, so it's also unusable. Those are the only 2 formats supported by Morph Creator for morph targets, so it's basically broken.
My workaround has been NOT to export anything from CC3, but instead send the figure with morphs straight to iClone, and export it from there. Problem is that iClone doesn't export to OBJ, so I have to launch Morph Creator to do that part. Once exported to OBJ morph target from Morph Creator, everything works to create the dials and animate them in the timeline. I have to send the morphs through 3 programs (CC, iClone and Morph Creator) to get a valid file. That's the issue I am reporting here.
In my experience, this has only happened when trying to create morph targets from the Hivewire morphs bundles sold at the RL content store. I DON'T get the "bone scale" error if I export morphs from the standard Essentials or default CC3 morphs that ship with the program. Assuming you have purchased the Hivewire morph packs, this should be very simple to reproduce. I have heard that some people have experience the same issue with Genesis 8 Female morphs exported from DAZ Studio, but I cannot confirm that.
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By 4u2ges - 7 Years Ago
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Not sure about the other export screenshots listed, but the export screenshot for Blender on the above help page would result in error
This one works:
Forgot to mention. Even when the morph is successfully in, working with sliders would result in mesh spikes.
The only way to fix it, is to copy faces references from the original OBJ into the exported from Blender, which is a real PITA.
And while we are at it.. Why only nude OBJ character export allowed out of CC? Yet you may freely export everything to OBJ from Morph Creator...:Whistling:
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