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By 3d guy1 - 7 Years Ago
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Guys, a lot of people here are confused.
Folks want to know: what goes into making a pro film?
They think , or hope, they're going to make there pro film in Iclone. Wrong! Pro films are not made solely in Iclone, nor 3DS Max, nor Maya, nor even Houdini.
Nope
They're made in COMPOSITING. This is where you take your Iclone renders + other assets. You send them
to compositing. That's where you fine tweak everything. No one makes pro films in a 3D app! Movies that
come straight from Iclone make me shudder!
That's why you want the best renders possible. Because you want the best raw shots possible to MAKE your final movie.
You want a renderer used in pro productions.
Thats why you want OCTANE 4 >>>> directly In Iclone!
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By toystorylab - 7 Years Ago
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I saw a few posts of you concerning iClone + Octane.
I have no experience with Octane (any third party render, cause i hesitate to leave iClone for render) but what i saw was optical very nice and what i read (render speed) was deeply interesting...
So, if your connections to Octane developers could open the door for an Octane plug-in for iClone, that would be great...
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By akuei2 - 7 Years Ago
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3d guy1 (11/2/2018)
Guys, a lot of people here are confused.
Folks want to know: what goes into making a pro film?
They think , or hope, they're going to make there pro film in Iclone. Wrong! Pro films are not made solely in Iclone, nor 3DS Max, nor Maya, nor even Houdini.
Nope
They're made in COMPOSITING. This is where you take your Iclone renders + other assets. You send them
to compositing. That's where you fine tweak everything. No one makes pro films in a 3D app! Movies that
come straight from Iclone make me shudder!
That's why you want the best renders possible. Because you want the best raw shots possible to MAKE your final movie.
You want a renderer used in pro productions.
Thats why you want OCTANE 4 >>>> directly In Iclone!
Once IC7 allow you to pipeline out, your request seem already clear. Repeat again the 3rd mistake after indigo & iray plugin only a nightmare, no point.
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By AutoDidact - 7 Years Ago
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Movies that come straight from Iclone make me shudder! come straight from Iclone make me shudder! First: some people here, who only render from Iclone, may find the above quoted statement a bit Disparaging/insulting of their works.
Second:why Not invest in Pipeline and use the Octane Standalone ? it supports Alembic format that you can export with animation from CC3 or iclone pipeline 6.5 or higher IMHO Reallusion enables these export formats for us who want to make animated films in other environments. Started-with-Octane-Standalone
Trust me.. owning pipeline version of Iclone pro or CC3 solves ALL of your problems .. ALL of them!! It will remove every shortcoming you my perceive to be in Iclone ,not just rendering options.
Having all of the options of a full 3DCC environment like Blender ,for example, you will have a better camera system, better particle effects better compositing options. And of course theres is unity and unreal if you choose to go that route.
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By sonic7 - 7 Years Ago
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Toystory >>> I have no experience with Octane (any third party render, cause i hesitate to leave iClone for render) <<<
I have the same hesitation ...
To create an animation in an environment like iClone with existing 'sets' already surrounding the animated action is - yes - perhaps 'old school'.
Creating films from the ground up by 'composting' acquisitions from other software - sure I can see that that's the way it's done these days. (In front of screens, not out on location sets) ... It does take a 'stretch' mentally, to get your head around the fact that 3d assets come from 'A' but the 'animation' comes from 'B' - yet they will work together in 'C' - and it's all just 'DATA' representing different 'components' but are brought together to mesh as one..
This is where some of the mystery is ....... Industry 'insiders' get to see this happening - possibly daily - so they get a profound understanding of how it goes together. For those not in that situation, it's a lot less clear ....
Like anything, it all comes down to learning. But when you're 'doing it ' as part of a team on a production, the learning is fast-tracked compared to the sole creator. And that makes some solo film makers tread a bit more 'cautiously' because obstacles and pitfalls will certainly be encountered and are arguably harder for the individual to overcome. Whereas with a team - you can 'brainstorm' your way out of any situation.... So yes, some hesitation for the indie - not because they don't want to try, or do better, or try new things ..... but they just need a lot of 'clues' along the way to work it all out.
But - hey .... the last thing I want to be is any sort of 'wet rag' .... lol ..... so I'm 'all ears' - to whatever's talked up on this thread - it has a great title !!!
'How to make a Movie' ....
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By 3d guy1 - 7 Years Ago
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I saw a few posts of you concerning iClone + Octane.
........yeah I have Octane now, so very familiar with it.
. if your connections to Octane developers could open the door for an Octane plug-in for iClone, that would be great...
..........RL just has to give the OK. Then it's smooth sailing.
.........major benefits of Octane are:
1 Highest quality.
2. In every major app. Development is on going. They are a leader. It's not going away like lots or renderers seem to.
3 For a smaller price, you can get plugins for EVERY app you own.
You get consistency.
Octane in after effects. { compositor}
Octane in Max, Houdini, etc. etc.
4 IN the app - opens in a pane IN the app. No exporting.
5 IN the app - not a shaky, time consuming, pipeline.
6 Pro level. { you don't need any more excuses }
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By AutoDidact - 7 Years Ago
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I am curious. How well does octane convert Materials not built for octane is it accurate & automatic? The leading render engine for Hollywood productions is Arnold (for Autodesk Maya) followed closely by Vray and they also need some manner a material conversion as well. also how much would you be willing to pay for an optional octane plugin for Iclone??
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By 3d guy1 - 7 Years Ago
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AutoDidact said
First: some people here, who only render from Iclone, may find the above quoted statement a bit Disparaging/insulting of their works.
............well apologies to anyone insulted.
............However, I titled this thread - HOW TO MAKE A MOVIE.
I didn't title it how to make a home video, how to make a youtube video, or how to impress your friends.
I said several times PRO MOVIE.
.............I've talked about separating the forum before: serious filmakers in one area. Hobbyists, students in another. Unfortunately they apparently prefer this one size fits all approach.
------------------------------------
SCRIPT
SHORT SCRIPT [DESCRIBING overconfidence, and lack of training.]
JIM FINISHES HIS PROJECT - INT BEDROOM - DAY
He uploads his work.
Jim shows his hard work iclone project to forum members.
JIM
Guys here's my new iclone movie. I had problems, that's
why scene 3, and scene 4 don't look right. etc. We ran out
of money, so we couldn't ___________ { fill in the blank }.
I'm not sure the renderer really looks good, either.......but..
Also I didn't have a compositor -- I didn't know what that even
was......
Al { vibing }
Hey it's cool man I dig it.
OTHERS
Yeah man! It's cool. It's awesome!
NOW JIM IS CONFIDENT . HE HAS A RELATIVE WITH CONNECTIONS TO GET THE MOVIE SEEN BY TOP STUDIO BRASS. He confidently sends it off.
INT. EXECUTIVE OFFICE - DAY
STUDIO EXECUTIVE GRABS PHONE
{ after watching 2 minutes of Jim's movie}
ON PHONE AGITATED
Get me Hanson! Hanson - what is this freaking garbage you sent me!!!?? . Don't ever waste my time again!
SLAMS PHONE DOWN.
EXECUTIVE TRIES TO COMPOSE HIMSELF. HE TAKES A DEEP BREATH. HE HAS AN IMPORTANT MEETING IN 10 MINUTES WITH A TOP HOLLYWOOD DIRECTOR.
BACK TO POOR JIM -- UNFORTUNATELY JIM HAS NOW BLOWN HIS RARE CHANCE TO ENTER THE BIG LEAGUES. HE IS VERY DEPRESSED. HE IS FORGETTING HIS IDEA TO SUBMIT TO FESTIVALS NOW TOO. HE MAY FORGET FILMMAKING ALTOGETHER, AND GO INTO BASEBALL.
THE END
---------------------
Guys to you want to make home videos? Or Pro movies?
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By illusionLAB - 7 Years Ago
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I love Octane, it's incredible technology. As for "industry standard" rendering... nobody wears that crown - as always, it's about picking the right tool for the job... and the "big" studios always have proprietary tweaks (or proprietary renderers) that they've made for rendering - that is, there are few major studios using "off the shelf" renderers in their pipelines. GPU rendering, as cool as it is, does not cut the mustard for film VFX or feature animation as scenes can easily have 50 or 60GB of geometry and a terabyte (or more) of textures. They already have huge CPU based render farms, and when pushed, will also use "cloud based" render services - which are also CPU based.
As for iClone getting Octane... I wouldn't hold my breath ;-) When Octane 4 is finally released the 2 GPU version will be free - the plugins to make it work with the host 3D software are OTOY plugins, so no (or very little) money to be made for RL - ie. not much motivation Also, as iClone loads everything onto your GPU in order to get real time performance, I can't see how Octane would have enough resources to be able to give the immediate feedback it does with other 'traditional' 3D software. The 'preview' and 'send to render' nature of Iray's "integration" is probably the best you could hope for.
Personally, I only use CC3 for character ideas (refined elsewhere... primarily 3D Coat) and iClone for 'first pass' character animation. I export the characters to C4D (and lately Blender 2.8) for cloth/hair dynamics, sets, lighting, camera and rendering (with Octane of course!).
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By illusionLAB - 7 Years Ago
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Forgot to say, AD, that Octane conversion of iClone materials is painless and accurate as iC is all texture based (ie. no procedural materials). The only trouble I've had is with 'transparency' channels... almost always as easy as inverting the alpha. The conversion is two steps... select all your iC textures and click on "convert materials" - which is virtually instant... there is also a button in Octane to "remove unused textures".
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By AutoDidact - 7 Years Ago
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"Personally, I only use CC3 for character ideas (refined elsewhere... primarily 3D Coat) and iClone for 'first pass' character animation. I primarily 3D Coat) and iClone for 'first pass' character animation. I export the characters to C4D (and lately Blender 2.8) for cloth/hair export the characters to C4D (and lately Blender 2.8) for cloth/hair dynamics, sets, lighting, camera and rendering (with Octane of dynamics, sets, lighting, camera and rendering (with Octane of course!)."."
@illusionLAB, Indeed it is Always good to read your insights sir . Your pipeline sounds very similar to mine in that I only use Daz figure for thier incredible morph versatility however I model most my own clothing for them in C4D.
for "first pass" animation however I send the a default base figure to sit idle in 3DXchange while I block in some major body motion for him/her in iclone and retarget in 3DX and export as BVH.
Back in Daz studio is where I use the graphMate Spline graph editor and Keymate Dope sheet plugins for final motion tweaking and the mimic pro stand alone or mimic live plugin for lipsinc and facial animation. final shape morphing, hair& costuming (conforming or dynamic with optitex)and export as MDD animated meshes to a lit scene environment in Maxon C4D for rendering.
I agree that Octane as an internal animation rendering option would require a Massive investment in GPU hardware to be practical for most users in this community.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I have just one comment. One of my "home movies" rendered in iClone was deemed good enough to be shown at a few film festivals and is in Amazon's video on demand video service.
I'm always interested in improvements, but time and again we have had people dismiss anything coming out of iClone as sub-standard and that's just becoming a bit long in the teeth.
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By AutoDidact - 7 Years Ago
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I dont think reallusion will bring Octane to Iclone. Perhaps the OP could try a kickstarter or Gofundme campaign to raise the funds for a professional Plugin coder to build a plugin.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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AutoDidact (11/4/2018)
Perhaps the OP could try a kickstarter or Gofundme campaign to raise the funds for a professional Plugin coder to build a plugin.
That would great... IF we had full access to a rich API set. But we don't, so you would need some amount of cooperation from Reallusion. If you could arrange it, I'd be happy. But even though the Iray plugin in CC3 is fun, I would still rather see the native renderer be a priority and get more love rather than putting effort into external render plugins.
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By inash - 7 Years Ago
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A nice workflow that I've found is to export my sequence from iClone as an FBX, import it into Cinema 4D ( or another 3d app) then render with Octane. Material conversion is pretty simple. Ofcourse you have to make lighting adjustments, etc but its worth it for the great look you get.
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By wildstar - 7 Years Ago
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Unity.... thats all ,
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By wildstar - 7 Years Ago
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Unity.... thats all ,
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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justaviking (11/4/2018)
AutoDidact (11/4/2018)
Perhaps the OP could try a kickstarter or Gofundme campaign to raise the funds for a professional Plugin coder to build a plugin.
That would great... IF we had full access to a rich API set. But we don't, so you would need some amount of cooperation from Reallusion. If you could arrange it, I'd be happy. But even though the Iray plugin in CC3 is fun, I would still rather see the native renderer be a priority and get more love rather than putting effort into external render plugins.
Full Python API will now become available it looks like.
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By 3d guy1 - 7 Years Ago
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Full Python API will now become available it looks like.
Where do you hear this?
Do any of us need permission to form an Octane Subforum? That forum will soon attract attention of Octane coders
to volunteer to code the plugin.
No charge for that. Anyone who wants it just buys the plugin when finished.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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3d guy1 (11/30/2018)
Full Python API will now become available it looks like.
Where do you hear this?
Here: https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost396265.aspx.
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By 3d guy1 - 7 Years Ago
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Yes, I saw it now thanks. And I posted this"
Not sure how Octane can fit in this?
Looks like all 22 of Octane Plugins are sold exclusively at Otoy. The only exception I know, which would be UNITY.
I think you get UNITY OCTANE at the Unity store. But of course its free.
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By rollasoc - 7 Years Ago
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3d guy1 (11/4/2018)
Guys to you want to make home videos? Or Pro movies?
Happy to make Home videos. Thanks for asking.
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By kungphu - 7 Years Ago
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I think the OP’s choice of verbiage is a bit raw, but understand what he’s saying. Truth is a majority of users here are hobbyists so the render engine is just fine; less than perfect animation is fine as well. All I do is film festivals and when we’ve completed films, we’ve won some sort of award. However, the grand champs are leaps and bounds better than anything I’ve ever made. They’re student films or films made by a group of professionals in Maya. They look like they’re straight out of Pixar. My iclone films don’t look like that. I’m not delusional enough to knock on Hollywood’s door and show them an iclone film :/ I doubt anyone here is actually trying that.
The render engine is waaaay better than what it was, but it doesn’t look like those grand prize animation shorts we see in youtube made in Maya. It doesn’t look like the latest Pixar film. Then again neither does Archer or South Park. We can safely say iClone isn’t a professional render solution without saying “all movies made in iclone are crap.” They’re aren’t something you’d put in the big screen, but even with an awesome render engine, the chances you’d see the next Toy Story or Incredibles posted in the Iclone forum are slim and none.There’s a reason the credits last for over 15minutes and these people working on these huge teams are professionals at their trade. You’re comparing apples to oranges. The typical icloner has a day job and enjoys telling stories and animating. They’re aren’t part of a huge formally trained animation team making a motion picture they want premiered in Hollywood. We’re not exactly thinking we’ll be the next John Lasseter. I’m all for bringing in Octane or another professional render solution to iclone. I think that would be awesome! It would help iclone get into even more people’s hands for use. Opening up a more professional user door. Compared to versions 4 & 5, the render engine is way better. Bumping it up again would be more than welcome. It let’s not kid ourselves and think if we had that plug all of the sudden the forum would be flooded with professional animators working on major motion pictures. I’m super intrigued by the blender pipeline, but Blender is so ugh... just Blender. I still don’t have my arms around it.
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By thedirector1974 - 7 Years Ago
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I really wonder when do people here start to realize that "doing" a movie has NOTHING to do with the redner engine ...
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By Delerna - 7 Years Ago
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really wonder when do people here start to realize that "doing" a movie has NOTHING to do with the redner engine
I do. Although I won't say it has NOTHING to do with it. Yes some softwares are better than others and some softwares are useless.
But in my opinion, the thing that really needs high professional skill is the users of whatever software it is they prefer to use.
I'm not saying anything against any software people prefer to use. If that's your preference then that is what you should use.
I have seen good video's created with iClone and I have seen bad video's created with iClone.
I have seen good video's created with the other software's talked about and I have also seen bad video's created with them.
Its not so much the software.....it is the skills of the people using them that makes pro movies.
Anyway whatever. Sorry for stating my bad opinion here on this post
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By kungphu - 7 Years Ago
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Yeah, like doing a “real movie.” The render engine is just one minute piece to the puzzle. If we have an octane plug, that still means it’s a one or two man team making an entire film along with lighting, acting, animation, material blah blah blah... still not going to be knocking down hollywood’s door.
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By mtakerkart - 7 Years Ago
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just my 2 cents . I used Iclone since the 5th version. Lot of users ask to have more than 4 lights and a better shadow. we got it but no "better" movies on this forum. Users ask for better textures better lighting , we got pbr and GI and better glow and again no "better" movie on this forum. Ask for better animation , got Neuron and Xsens for body , faceware and liveFace for faces , Curve editor plugin and .................No "better" movie on this forum . Asked for better particles engine , got one of the best on the market with POPCornFX and......on this forum. Seriously I understand why Reallusion focus today on Video game market with the CC3. I admit that I also tend to think like that but the ball is in our camp to make "good" movies. :);)
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By illusionLAB - 7 Years Ago
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the ball is in our camp to make "good" movies
It's a romantic notion to think if we make 'better' movies they'll listen to our requests - my first post on the forum 3 years ago was to suggest "translations and lights" to have 'spinners' to move or increase values smoothly... it's the most basic function which every animation software has (one way or another) - three years later and we still have to enter 'numerical guesses' or click a hundred times to move geo or change the light intensity (yet there's a slider for light range... which is baffling!). So, two problems... 1. they don't understand the need for good ergonomics 2. they simply make more money by continually offering upgrades or new versions and unless "everybody" complains about something, don't see the need to waste their developers time.
I agree that the movies have not improved at the same rate as the software features have... I imagine it's more likely that the best "movie makers" who've been on the forum have outgrown iClone as their main animation program.
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By kungphu - 7 Years Ago
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Yup... I recall the days of the First Daz plugin being delayed and seeing some very strong posts on here. Like Reallusion was holding back the next Kubrick. In the end, when the plug came out, the quality of iclone vids stayed just about the same. Iclone is a tool. Look at some of Spielbergs early home movies. You could tell the “kid” really knew his way around a camera and story. If he’d had iclone , I can only image what he’d have down with it. To stay on topic, I’d love an octane plug, But that wouldn’t all of the sudden propel iclone vids on the forum into the next stratosphere and into the professional filmmaking world.
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By jarretttowe - 7 Years Ago
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I’m super intrigued by the blender pipeline, but Blender is so ugh... just Blender. I still don’t have my arms around it.
I started using Blender a week ago. It is slow going, but most of the frustrations I had with the interface are gone. The new beta acts more like a conventional application. I have high hopes for this new scripting environment to push out a true iClone to Blender path forward. That is really all that is standing in the way of the "Pixar " level of quality.
Think about it...
iClone has an incredibly robust system for importing content from multiple sources, i.e. Daz, Poser, XNA Laura, sketchup, etc.
iClone has an incredibly sophisticated system for creating animations with that content, i.e. Facial Capture, Body Capture, all the cool tools built into iClone already, plus the function editor.
If someone creates a Blender export plugin, true professional level rendering is possible with eevee, cycles, the internal ray-tracer, or an add-on renderer like Octane.
Good times are close at hand!
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By kungphu - 7 Years Ago
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Just may be time to take that dip back in the Blender pool! IClone has its limitations for sure. But it lets me tell stories in ways I never dreamed possible even just years ago. Heck I marveled at Muvizu and was an avid user with iClone on the back burner. Super thrilled to have the access to story telling like I do in iclone.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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It is a sad situation when animation has to look a certain way to be taken seriously. There have been independent solo animators for years (in any format, not just 3D) that do quality work, but their films are hard to find as they are not sufficiently "commercial" or perhaps too edgy. It's good to look beyond Pixar sometimes. Give me Bill Plympton any day.
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By jarretttowe - 7 Years Ago
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Sure, Pixar isn't the only game in town...there are tons of rendering styles.
Grease Pencil could make Plymptoons more accessible than ever for hobbyists. And that is actually a lot more straightforward than what we are doing now, as most of the materials are ignored along with lighting. Well, it doesn't have to be ignored, but it can be.
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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As a user of both iClone and Octane, I believe that *both* have the potential to play their part in the professional environment, in different ways.
(1) I have seen more actual professional content shown up on the Otoy forums, meaning companies actually hiring these people for commercials, TV shows, ads, marketing materials, etc.
Octane has a leg up when it comes to the corporately sought after look.
(2) As a previz tool, iClone is potentially amazing indeed, especially with all the mocap. As Octane is only but a render engine, it must rely on 3D animation/modeling apps for its content. As such, iClone can play a huge roll in Previz for professional media.
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By mtakerkart - 7 Years Ago
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Meanwhile in realtime....
Can't believe to achieve this with raytracing with 2 or 3 computers....
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By Dr. Nemesis - 7 Years Ago
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kungphu (12/3/2018)
I’d love an octane plug, But that wouldn’t all of the sudden propel iclone vids on the forum into the next stratosphere and into the professional filmmaking world.
Werd.
The truth is, within Iclone right now is the ability to get amazing results. If the base skills are missing a good render won’t fill the gap (it actually makes things worse).
Having said that, if we get a future where the community no longer has to wait for Reallusion to do everything, that’ll be an amazing time.
But yeah, render ability isn’t really the reason why Iclone isn’t a common studio tool. There are many pro tools out there that don’t have great render abilities (Motionbuilder anyone?).
The biggest reason (IMHO) is actually that Iclone is aimed at the one man army and as a result is quite weak when it comes to collaboration.
Being designed for the 1 man army means things have to be kept relatively simple so that individuals can make things quickly. Studios need deep control, which is more time consuming but fine cause a studio is a team working in parallel.
The introduction of Iray to the Iclone ecosystem has had a very interesting effect on these forums.
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By jarretttowe - 7 Years Ago
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True...we see the iray quality, but want real-time results. So now we are looking for a way to make that happen!
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By illusionLAB - 7 Years Ago
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iClone can play a huge roll in Previz for professional media.
I "hoped" that was true when I tried using iClone for PreViz on a major VFX TV series I worked on... it failed on most accounts - however I did export my mocap as alembic files to Cinema 4D so all was not lost. The trouble with 'real' productions is everything is changing all the time... you build an scene and show the director - who "loves it" but would just like to make one change - and as luck would have it - something that iClone doesn't have! They are used to hearing "no problem", not "umm... I think I can" - this is the moment when you export everything, well... not lights (eg. fail #1 - this is no time for workarounds!). The other immediate biggy was 'timeline'... he's asking for this to hit at frame 73 and that to happen at frame 147 (not realizing that it's 60fps time base and needs to be exported as 24fps - another level of complication there is no time for). I could go on. It's fine if you're a one man show, or have loads of time... but in the professional world, it's not there yet. If RL are serious about PreViz, I'd be happy to to be a consultant.
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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I believe that Unity and UE4 native realtime could both create Final Fantasy level visuals, but not Avenger-level visuals.
You will need a raytracer for that. They had to use 4x Quadros with raytracing for the Phasma demo, and a mega complex mesh for the Siren demo.
You won't see any spectacular universally lit product from either engine's realtime that just 'works' all the time, it always falls short of Avenger-level.
That goes for Eevee too!
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By rollasoc - 7 Years Ago
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thedirector1974 (12/2/2018)
I really wonder when do people here start to realize that "doing" a movie has NOTHING to do with the redner engine ...
Totally agree. Story is everything.
Remember there are moviestorm and iClone films on Amazon prime to watch, so it isn't entirely impossible to get your film seen, elsewhere than Youtube *
* : other video hosting sites are available.
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By Lamias - 7 Years Ago
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Just because someone wants better graphics, it doesn't necessarily mean that they put little value on the story, or that they choose to rely more on visuals than a good scenario.
Personally, I am a big supporter of good stories because they play a big part (perhaps the biggest in a production). But I also want better render results.
I don't understand why we can't have both, and why people who want better graphics are accused of not caring about the story. :)
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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rollasoc (12/3/2018)
thedirector1974 (12/2/2018)
I really wonder when do people here start to realize that "doing" a movie has NOTHING to do with the redner engine ...
Totally agree. Story is everything. Remember there are moviestorm and iClone films on Amazon prime to watch, so it isn't entirely impossible to get your film seen, elsewhere than Youtube * * : other video hosting sites are available.
I've trying to say that as well but haven't been very successful. At some point all you can do is give up on the discussion and make movies.
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By Dr. Nemesis - 7 Years Ago
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Lamias (12/3/2018)
I don't understand why we can't have both, and why people who want better graphics are accused of not caring about the story. :)
Generally cause of all the poor films.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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Lamias (12/3/2018)
I don't understand why we can't have both, and why people who want better graphics are accused of not caring about the story. :)
The initial post of this thread is kind of offensive, although I do not disagree with the idea of having an Octane render option.
It's just the idea that if you don't go for that and are happy with iClone's native renderer then you are a hobbyist and can't be take seriously. It is an opinion I object to.
The put-downs did not originate from the storytellers, and it seems lately that that is the only way some people are able to bring up a topic. We seem to have to go through phases like that and then things calm down for a while.
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By jarretttowe - 7 Years Ago
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I like to look at it like this:
Adding Octane and Eevee won't increase the quality of the movies. They would, of course, increase the quality of the final render -- otherwise we all would have stuck with the old iclone renderers.
But what those options WILL do, much like the recent addition of the CC3 pipeline, is increase the user base substantially. When people see better renderers, additional renderers, as well as the forward advancement of the internal renderer (we need both), they will say to themselves, this is an attractive value proposition. A great animation tool, with high quality output. More end-users can only strengthen what has become an extremely versatile tool.
I have huge respect for anyone who has completed a movie. It is a monumental task, even if they are rendering dancing avatars. Heck, there are some very good filmmakers in the MMD community!
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By Delerna - 7 Years Ago
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I don't understand why we can't have both, and why people who want better graphics are accused of not caring about the story.
I have never (and I don't see that anyone else has either) accused people interested in high level graphics not caring about the story.
I have only said I have seen pro high level (realistic looking) graphic movies were some were great and some were boring to watch and pro low level (but reasonable) graphic movies where some were great and some were boring to watch. So based on that my opinion is that the only important thing for a movie is a well told story. The level of graphics is a personal preference.
The way I see it is that those of us who are reasonably happy with iClones graphics are accused of being low level movie makers and are not able to make pro movies because its graphics abilities aren't good enough. By the way, I am not talking about me, I only do video's that satisfy me.
I am talking about people like this person who make things with fantastic looking graphics like this.
He has even done great things with iClone 5 so sorry but I am 1 person who disagree with anyone who insists you can't create good videos with iClone.
It is what people like him achieves that convinces me that iClone is capable of adequate graphics to be used in an excellently told story.
But that doesn't mean Im trying to tell you not to do high level realistic graphics. Everyone should work according to their preferences.
I just hate how they keep saying anyone that is satisfied with working with iClones graphics is useless.
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By kungphu - 7 Years Ago
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I think where the OP got mixed up was where he wrote that long diatribe about people on the forum that post a decent iclone vid and everyone says hey it’s great, nice one etc. etc. but present it to a Hollywood studio and get laughed out of the studio. I post videos and never had it crossed my mind, “hey... I wonder if dreamworks would run this.” It’s a scenario that I don’t think anyone on the forum has ever had in their mind when posting a video. I make movies to tell stories and reconnect with my old music buddy I’ve known for over 40 years. We have a blast making them and enter film festivals. Would I like a better render engine. Sure... do I think I’m going to be working on the next Pixar/Dreamworks animated feature in any capacity??? Absolutely not. Doesn’t mean I devalue iclone or the art of telling stories. Mark as mentioned above makes really awesome vids! Not sure why Amazon came up so much on this thread, it’s not that hard to get vids posted on there. I project I worked on for a very short time is on there and it’s a feature length made with Muvizu of all things. I think the OP was more talking about renders like what we see on the big screen in movie theatre as opposed to something on Amazon Prime.
Honestly with the advances iclone has made with its own render engine, there would be no problem generating a render good enough for a TV series in iclone. There are plenty of children’s series with render quality similar to iclone. Makes sense because those 30min shorts can’t take years to make, they gotta be quick. So yes to octane or another render engine for sure! But I don’t quite agree with the narrative the OP put out and the picture he painted about icloners clamoring for professional animation jobs making feature length film. Most vid posters are not trying to break into the movie biz. But as Jarrett stated... higher quality render engine may attract more people whose day job is working in TV and film to iclone. I for one would welcome that expertise to the forums with more than open arms!
I think of the term “hobbyist” as a truthful term and not a derogatory one. I’m definitely a hobbyist, because I don’t put food on the table with videos. I do it as a hobby I enjoy. If I love to cook, take pride in it and constantly invite people over for dinner parties... I’m not a professional chef nor can I claim to be. I just love cooking and sharing that with friends. I view the term hobbyist the same way. Being someone who really loves making movies and likes to share them. Doesn’t mean they aren’t passionate about movies, nor does it automatically mean the movies aren’t entertaining. It just means they don’t pay taxes on their iclone work because they have another means to support themselves. I think I’ll start the, “Hobbyist and proud of it movement!” :)
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By kungphu - 7 Years Ago
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Oh I almost forgot @delerna... great shout out to Mark! His work is one of the things that made me buckle down and dedicate the time to iclone when I was messing with other software. Totally entertaining and stylish; throughly entertaining! His vids never seem to dissappoint.
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By mark - 7 Years Ago
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Thanks for the kind words guys, but my stuff been surpassed long ago... for sure! :P
Like most folks I'll be happy with a better render-engine if it comes along but livin' with compromises is what I've learned to do!!! And I'll bet there will be some no mater what :P:D:P
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By Delerna - 7 Years Ago
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Just going to add.
My statement here wasn't really related to the OP wanting improved rendering. I kicked myself a few times for writing this in this thread but couldn't help myself trying to sate my view. I think maybe I end up writing so much trying to make sure my thoughts are clear that what I say gets confusing and sounds bad?. Oh, and that statement is not related to what you wrote kungphu/mark. Just my own thinking
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By jarretttowe - 7 Years Ago
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I think we ALL want to make better movies. I think each of us has different ideas of what that entails. There isn't a lot of discussion about individual clips and their successes and failures in storytelling -- and maybe there should be. Kindly and constructively of course. Unfortunately, storytelling comes largely from our own minds, and as such, we can't really beg for ourselves to be feature-upgraded. But our storytelling tool is iclone. As a commercial product, we should expect it to grow and change and improve. I think the forums give us a place to give our input on the direction of those changes.
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By AutoDidact - 7 Years Ago
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"But what those options WILL do, much like the recent addition of the CC3 pipeline, is increase the user base substantially. "
Not sure I would Completely agree with that assertion.
First the tools of CC3 Pipeline IMHO seem to be primarily targeting Game developers
(who presumably wont be rendering in Iclone anyway)and users of Daz content who want a much easier way to leverage their Massive Daz content libraries Iclone.
The OP's apparent fixation on having Octane 4 as an internal renderer in Iclone is his personal preference, other people may want Arnold or Vray RT or Corona etc.
Besides Reallusion is already adding a new render engine in the form of the Brute force, unidirectional path tracer from $$$NVIDIA $$$and sorry but ...no it wont be anywhere near "realtime".
IMHO The people who want the animation tools of Iclone but have no interest in creating final renders in Iclone
are already using 3Dxchange Pipeline AND DOING THE WORK required to export scenes to other programs where they have access to many render engines including a Free Octane version in the Free Unity.
I get it .. It would be nice to be able to sit in the familiar& comfortable environment of Iclone and have a "Hi end " photorealistic render engine and a perhaps the forth coming expanded API /python options will make this a reality.
So, in my view, peoples options are quite clear.
Step out of your comfort Zone ,Invest in 3DX export pipeline and DO THE WORK
required to export to other programs Like Wildstar and Illusionlab etc
Or wait patiently for some talented third party programmer to create a direct internal Octane bridge
with the new expanded API/Python options at some unknown, future date.
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By sonic7 - 7 Years Ago
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Well of-course there's already 'bucket-loads' of work to do for the one-man show, so I personally don't see anything wrong with trying for a 'complete' solution within iClone - there's no medals handed out for using multiple programs. I guess really though - it's mostly a matter of what you feel comfortable with.
If you're comfortable with (read: 'comfortably prepared') to use multiple programs - great! You'd be mad not to ..... But likewise, if you're more comfortable with the single program approach - great too! And in any case, we can all change out approach down the track anyway .....
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By jarretttowe - 7 Years Ago
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Exactly, sonic7! This doesn't need to be an either/or proposition.
To address the assertion that CC3 is aimed at gamedev -- I think that is partially true. Reallusion has identified a key market (Daz content hoarders, of which I am one lol), and delivered a product that acts as an output for game devs, and an input for Dazaholics who want to render real-time animation. I do not think they are necessarily the same person because I believe most Daz content has been purchased without extended licenses. I believe that people who purchase extended licenses are likely already using a full-featured game development tool.
Either way, the initial poster is correct in that Octane 4 is a great rendering engine. There are LOTS of great rendering engines, however, and I think the key to future success for RL as a company will be in making iclone as extensible as possible. CC3 is a canny business move, and it has provided me with a great new tool for making movies.
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By sonic7 - 7 Years Ago
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Jarret >>>> " ... I think the key to future success for RL as a company will be in making iclone as extensible as possible. CC3 is a canny business move, and it has provided me with a great new tool for making movies ..." <<<<
I do agree with this ... and I *hope* that Reallusion will do everything in their power to "speed tune" the upcoming iClone iRay. Let's get the indie film-makers up and running - There's potentially a large market that could follow and if it isn't possible with iRay, then - "whatever it takes" - by way of a realistic renderer would be most welcome ....
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By 3d guy1 - 7 Years Ago
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Another thing about rendering realism VS _____________.
How come some models in the RL store are rendered in UNITY, not Iclone? The demo pics were UNITY.
I didn't catch that before I bought one set - but had to quickly return it. The Iclone renders were no where near the UNITY render quality.   
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By Dr. Nemesis - 7 Years Ago
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If we're thinking about the same stuff, those artists made the items for Unity first and then just used the same promotional material for the Iclone page.
For the stuff I bought, GI can get you close enough though not exactly as good. Takes a bit more effort in Iclone but usually worth it (and possible) cause of the PBR textures.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I have commented on this in the past, and I think that 3rd Party developers that sell in the Content Store and are among the "Elite Developers" should be obligated to spend some time with iClone and render out their products.
There is a bit more to making an item suitable for iClone than exporting an FBX and converting in 3DXchange.
I have learned my lesson and require that a product has at least PBR textures. But rendering in iClone should be mandatory in all circumstances.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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Not that there seems to be much point given the previous tone of some of this discussion, but I would like to debunk a misconception that those that want to stay within iClone DON'T WANT TO DO THE WORK. Using something other than the native renderer always involves additional skill and effort to get lighting and shaders right, etc. I believe we part ways here and just have to agree to disagree. But I refuse to be put in a lower-class category just because my pipeline is not half a mile long. That is not the basis for a fruitful discussion.
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By AutoDidact - 7 Years Ago
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The people who wish to stay within Iclone should stay within Iclone If they are happy with the native render they should use it If they willing to be patient with longer IRay renders in 2019 they will definitely have that option from RL but suffer no delusions. Reallusion is getting the exact same IRay that Daz users have. It is the same loss leader product that NVIDIA doles out to foment hardware sales. It wont be a fast as Octane no matter how much "Optimizing" RL does. in fact I see no technical reason it would be any faster than the CC3 version However now there is the possibility of even more internal render option Via the expanded API/python option in the future...someday. Reallusion has made some very wise strategic Decision of late (Excluding IRay IMHO) I know of no other 3D Character Company,(outside of Autodesk) that has given its users so many options for people who wish to stay within Iclone and those of us who choose to do the work of building Custom external pipelines with progams that we already owned or with free programs easily obtained(Unity ,Unreal ,Blender).
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