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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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I know some of the shortcomings of the irayplug-in such as won't work with water or popcorn and might one day work with speedtree, renders in a very long time compared to iclone now ………….. but I've also seen some of the stuff people have already produced using CC3 and its quite stunning.
Whilst sitting out side my househaving a fag (cigarette) I found myself looking at the reflection in a car windscreen and the shiny red paint on the car and thought that's what I want from iclone. I'm not unhappy with what I got now in terms of iclones quality but having seen what can de done with simple stills it got me thingthis iray thing might be able to give it to me.
So here briefly my intention and a few questions to see if anyone can shed some light on whether they think it’s possible or not: I want a TV studio which is just a small room with a desk with a glass centre that reflects the news readers and any videos playing on the walls. Currently I am using still water to achieve this and it works rather well. Normally there are only 2 characters and maybe an animal for fun, don’t envisage more than 4 on occasions. I’ve currently got 3 video screens as all fancy newsrooms seem to have now a days. I know water won’t work but will iray be able to reflect like a mirror? How will iray treat imbedded video? if it just renders as is I would be happy. Render times on a high end graphics card, a1080ti or 2080ti? 30 seconds per frame might be OK, less would be better. Guess Imight be asking how long is a piece of string given numerous variables. I know guesswork is involved here but today is a dreaming day for me so might as well make the most of it. If iray didn’t work for me I’d cry for maybe 47.256 seconds and get on with iclone as I got no choice. If it does work, fuck me, I think that’s real big news, for me anyway. A few final points as far as I can see iclone only supports one graphics card so there is no advantage in having 2 including using iray? Got an AMD Ryzen 1700 which is massively out classed by the intel equivalent in terms of single threaded performance but not in multitasking. Looking at thread usage when rendering for instance the CPU uses many threads, some more than others but only runs at about 10% overall. Any advantage in getting a better processor especially in terms of single thread function. Currently using a GTX 1070 which is absolutely fine for what I am doing as real time viewing is generally OK and rendering is speedy. I will only consider upgrading if I improve my skills so I can produce stuff that I consider “good enough” and can do it quickly. At this point if iray works for me it will be the icing on the cake and as I like sweet things, especially if they are also shiny, which iray promises,falsely or not. Any useful information will be appreciated.
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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Noandrewlargin (10/9/2018)
I know some of the shortcomings of the irayplug-in such as won't work with water or popcorn and might one day work withspeedtree, renders in a very long time compared to iclone now ………….. but I'vealso seen some of the stuff people have already produced using CC3 and itsquite stunning.
Whilst sitting out side my househaving a fag (cigarette) I found myself looking at the reflection in a carwindscreen and the shiny red paint on the car and thought that's what I wantfrom iclone. I'm not unhappy with what I got now in terms of iclonesquality but having seen what can de done with simple stills it got me thingthis iray thing might be able to give it to me.
So here briefly my intention and a fewquestions to see if anyone can shed some light on whether they think it’spossible or not: I want a TV studio which is just a smallroom with a desk with a glass centre that reflects the newsreaders and anyvideos playing on the walls. Currently Iam using still water to achieve this and it works rather well. Normally there are only 2 characters andmaybe an animal for fun, don’t envisage more than 4 on occasions. I’ve currently got 3 video screens as all fancy newsrooms seem to have now a days. I know water won’t work but will iray beable to reflect like a mirror? How will iray treat imbedded video? if it just rendered it as is I would be happy. Render times on a high end graphics card, a1080ti or 2080ti? 30 seconds per frame mightbe OK less would be better. Guess Imight be asking how long is a piece of string given numerous variables. I know guesswork is involved here but todayis a dreaming day for me so might as well make the most of it. If iray didn’t work for me I’d cry for maybe47.256 seconds and get on with iclone as I got no choice. If it does work, fuck me, I think that’s realbig news, for me anyway. A few final points as far as I can seeiclone only supports one graphics card so there is no advantage in having2 including using iray? Got an AMD Ryzen 1700 which is massively outclassedby the intel equivalent in terms of single threaded performance but not in multitasking. Looking at thread usage when rendering for instancethe CPU uses many threads, some more than others but only runs at about 10%overall. Any advantage in getting abetter processor especially in terms of single thread function. Currently using a GTX 1070 which isabsolutely fine for what I am doing as real time viewing is generally OK andrendering is speedy. I will onlyconsider upgrading if I improve my skills so I can produce stuff that Iconsider “good enough” and can do it quickly. At this point if iray works for me it will be the icing on the cake andI like sweet things especially if they are also shiny, which iray promises,falsely or not. Any useful information will be appreciated.
Nope, iray plugin is a toy at this moment, many function & optimum no finish yet.Especially, render time is is sick.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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andrewlargin (10/9/2018)
I know water won’t work but will iray be able to reflect like a mirror? How will iray treat imbedded video? if it just renders as is I would be happy. Render times on a high end graphics card, a1080ti or 2080ti?30 seconds per frame might be OK, less would be better.Guess Imight be asking how long is a piece of string given numerous variables. A few final points as far as I can see iclone only supports one graphics card so there is no advantage in having 2including using iray? Got an AMD Ryzen 1700 which is massively out classed by the intel equivalent in terms of single threaded performance but not in multitasking.Looking at thread usage when rendering for instance the CPU uses many threads, some more than others but only runs at about 10% overall.Any advantage in getting a better processor especially in terms of single thread function.
a) Iray absolutely will handle reflections.
b) Embedded video will work
c) Render times of 30-seconds per frame is probobaly not realistic. For acceptable quality, I would anticipate more like 2 to 3 MINUTES per frame on a GTX 1070 to GTX 1080Ti. Of course it varies by scene, but with several lights and some characters, I do not fresee 30-second render times being plausible.
d) Iray will support multi-GPU setups, but iClone does not. So the native renderer does not benefit, but your Iray renders will benefit from a second GPU. Iray on the CPU is multi-threaded, but still a lot slower than running on an Nvidia card.
e) The CPU will have very little impact, especially when you have an Nvidia card for the rendering. If you had a non-Nvidia card (AMD) then I'd take a closer look at the CPU.
ADDED... I was typing while Akuei2 posted. Our answers synchronize on my comment "C" above.
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By wires - 6 Years Ago
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With the correct material, and a few adjustments you can get a very good mirror surface using Iray. This is just a quick render with an Iray Chrome material applied to a wall in CC.
The results are only visible in the Iray Preview window, but any changes that are made update almost at once.
The above scene rendered in just under 25 secs. for 500 iterations.
A pretty please, could you refrain from using black text on a dark grey background in your posts.
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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Gerry
Tried my best to alter the text background but failed. I imported the text from word as its easier to see it and edit it. Not going to do it again especially as your request was reasonable in both tone and fact.
Nice mirror, 25s is useful to know running on a 1080ti.
Justaviking and akuei2
That's what I wanted to know, slow rendering especially compared to what I am used to. I figured about 1 minute could be rendered in 24 hours if the rate was a frame every 30s. 2 to 3 mins is a bit long. Done my crying and will carry on learning iclone but ……….. how about this
If I understand you correctly iray will render on multiple graphics cards so ……………. if I ever felt the need to spend excessive amounts of cash could buy 2 or 3 1080 ti or 2 2080ti etc. Double or triple the speed, anyone thinks that is feasible or do you lose speed with multiple cards so only get 1.5 times the speed etc.
Only asking for now, To invest that sort of cash I would need to be selling my work which is away in the distance now but that's my plan. I will obviously wait to see what others do and how long it takes etc and maybe play around with the trial iray version for iclone when it comes out but its the quality of the CC3 renders that's got to me ….. and I like shiny innit.
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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andrewlargin (10/9/2018)
Gerry
Tried my best to alter the text background but failed. I imported the text from word as its easier to see it and edit it. Not going to do it again especially as your request was reasonable in both tone and fact.
Nice mirror, 25s is useful to know running on a 1080ti.
Justaviking and akuei2
That's what I wanted to know, slow rendering especially compared to what I am used to. I figured about 1 minute could be rendered in 24 hours if the rate was a frame every 30s. 2 to 3 mins is a bit long. Done my crying and will carry on learning iclone but ……….. how about this
If I understand you correctly iray will render on multiple graphics cards so ……………. if I ever felt the need to spend excessive amounts of cash could buy 2 or 3 1080 ti or 2 2080ti etc. Double or triple the speed, anyone thinks that is feasible or do you lose speed with multiple cards so only get 1.5 times the speed etc.
Only asking for now, To invest that sort of cash I would need to be selling my work which is away in the distance now but that's my plan. I will obviously wait to see what others do and how long it takes etc and maybe play around with the trial iray version for iclone when it comes out but its the quality of the CC3 renders that's got to me ….. and I like shiny innit.
Dude, don't so ganged up at dead circle, try thinking out of box ...
Pipeline is one another powerful function for RL product, you had plenty of free choice rest of iray plugin.
Such a blender, unity & etc... free render engine of quality visual performance.
New NCard no cheap, new RTX technology is unknown.
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By 4u2ges - 6 Years Ago
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Tried my best to alter the text background but failed. I imported the text from word as its easier to see it and edit it. Not going to do it again especially as your request was reasonable in both tone and fact.
TIP: copy text from Word, open notepad, paste, copy it again from notepad and paste into the message box here. Formatting is gone.
There also a format removing tool (last icon, when you click Format below the message box), but that does not work all that well sometimes.
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By Keith_MPS - 6 Years Ago
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Or, when you paste, right-click and choose “paste as plain text”.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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About "black text"...
There is another solution... almost in plain sight... that I "found" just a couple months ago.
When editing your post, click the "FORMAT" button, and on the right-hand end of the formatting tools, there is an ERASER to "REMOVE ALL FORMATTING." **CLICK THAT**
You can go back and Edit your original post here and try that. I wish I'd known about that a long time ago.  
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By 4u2ges - 6 Years Ago
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Keith_MPS (10/9/2018)
Or, when you paste, right-click and choose “paste as plain text”.
That is the Chrome and Opera thingy.
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By Kevin.S - 6 Years Ago
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There will be issues to figure out but I cant wait  .
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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Not going to name you as I'm far too drunk now but not totally incompetent.
Thanks lads for your feedback, how the fuck else am I gonna learn anything. I am English of the London variety and I try to keep my language as international as I can but if it slips and you do not understand some things I say do tell.
The editing tips are all good and I will look again whilst sober but I think its likely best I just type direct. The main reason I did word apart from the editing thing is I got the worst internet connection in the known universe so after typing when I click post reply I might lose everything so ……..I will copy and save and if the internet fucks up I will read your instructions.
As for Iray I am NOT going to buy excessive amounts of gear until the BBC gives me a lucrative contract, in my dreams. I dream big but don't care about the outcomes. What it does is it keeps me honest and on my toes so I improve but might not reach my goals, so what, the learning is what I like as long as I go slow.
Just heard Indigo is making a come back, anyone got an opinion if that's a viable option as I think Iray isn't for now, maybe later? I have been told Indigo render speed is much quicker. Not the same quality but an improvement and I will take whatever I can.
Been a pleasure, useful information, civilised conversation, lets continue and show others how to do it like all our politicians of all persuasions Bill Clinton and that idiot Tony Blair for example …..innit….even though I'm well pissed (that means drunk in Englander speak, not angry, mellow).
Sorry on reflection I have to name one name MR Akeui2
Very happy to think and live out of boxes but I ain't got the experience or knowledge to understand how to export iclone projects to Blender or Unity. I am new to iclone so am not even competent at it. Done a wee bit of basic Blender and it seems rather mysterious to me. I am not dismissing what you say and really would like to know how to maximise quality but I think for the moment I am better off learning iclone than new stuff. Correct me if I am wrong. As I said new equipment is not going to happen now as what I got works, I am just trying to plan ahead a bit. Maybe back to learning tomorrow?
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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@Andrew - Reallusion has stated that the Indigo plugin is at end-of-life. They will continue supporting it in iClone 7.x for existing customers but it's not for sale anymore. So unless something changes, it won't exist in iClone 8 whenever that appears (could be a long time, which means more 7.x free updates, so no rush yet for me).
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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so iray plug in for iclone dont suport multi gpu ? why i am not impressed ?? ( i was think about buying iray right now i never learn lol )
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By 4u2ges - 6 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/9/2018)
so iray plug in for iclone dont suport multi gpu ? why i am not impressed ?? ( i was think about buying iray right now i never learn lol )
I think you've misinterpreted JAV post. Iray does support multi-GPU for rendering in iClone and CC. iClone itself still does not. 
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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4u2ges (10/9/2018)
wildstar (10/9/2018)
so iray plug in for iclone dont suport multi gpu ? why i am not impressed ?? ( i was think about buying iray right now i never learn lol ) I think you've misinterpreted JAV post. Iray does support multi-GPU for rendering in iClone and CC. iClone itself still does not.
Indeed.
I tried to be clear...
justaviking (10/9/2018)
d) Iray will support multi-GPU setups, but iClone does not. So the native renderer does not benefit, but your Iray renders will benefit from a second GPU. Iray on the CPU is multi-threaded, but still a lot slower than running on an Nvidia card.
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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Sorry dude, I didn't know your situation, just forget about pipeline & other app.
Let us focus on, without iray what can IC7 achieve in optimum result.
The picture show a raw, dirt & quickly works without any post effect.
Floor is substance material, Spotlight cast shadow at back, left is weak GI light, and right hand side is Strong GI light.
The robot stand for non-organic(main metallic) prop, character stand for organic prop.
In term, GI is nice combo with subtance material (Floor) & non-organic prop (PBR shader). In order to optimum skin for organic prop, weak GI light can mimic fake sss effect.
Those are not rocket scene, only a patient work with tuning the light (bias level ) at balance state.
Not only for IC7, common real-time engine also can obtain same level quality but only playing a light. The rest, you can apply LUT to mimic different style movie.
IC7 is fun to learn, but patient is everything.
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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Akuei2
Now thats what I'm talking about, how to improve quality, nice pic man or what. Just read what you said about the lighting and got two problems, maybe more. Got a nice hangover after last nights fun so my brain is fuzzy. I have learnt little about lighting as I found iclone has worked so far for me without putting in additional lights just playing with every slider and button I can find. This was OK but I would like to up my game if possibe so I was looking for some sort of shortcut like iray or indigo but seems like I just have to do my time and learn shit, shame but thats the way it is. The cat is also in my room sun bathing so its hard to look at the screen and I don't want to spoil her fun as she's a bit neurotic so its nice to see her relax.
Once she's gone and my hagover is gone I will re read and look more closely at your work.
Do you have an opinion on indigo as it seems to do something. Maybe I can persuade Realussion to let me have one for cash money if the render speeds are reasonable?
PS just looked at the image again breifly with the blind down, it really is quite stunning. Do you have any vids I could look at as I'd like to see what your animation looks like using these techniques?
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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Nope, Indigo is a toy, same as iray plugin currently. Fun for playing, that's all.
Honestly, nothing special techniques apply at these roughness work. Everything I do , just based on knowledge where I can learn from official source.
e.g. Casting shadow by default light, adding GI light for bounce & tracing purpose, tuning position and value until " Ya, this scene look so natural ".
There video shown how bloom effect & GI light act on PBR material.
What can we see ... Light is magic, and Rock with Music, make anything possible.
Please refer back the template project are provide by IC7, and learn it. This is something I call it "shortcut"
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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To answer the question of the thread title Is IRay a game changer?
well yes for that part of the Iclone user base who does not own Pipeline with full export options and is already or $$$willing to invest the required hardware$$$ from the NVDIA corporation. and is willing to endure the vicissitudes of an exponential increase in animation render times Or is only doing stills
( in which case you could be using Daz studio with its models and content for still portraits free of charge) I am not part of the above Demographic so ... IRay in iclone is completely moot to my pipeline.
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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To Mr Akuei2 and Mr Autodidact
I think maybe I have not been clear as to what I would like to see and aspire to. This is my understanding of what is going on and please please please correct me if I am wrong as all I do is want to learn. Iray is fantastic but the render times will likely be total shite in iclone so its of no use unless you have a farm thingy to do it on multiple graphics cards which means the cost is excessive? Its also limited as it don't render many things such as speed trees for now. Unless someone say something different its currently of no use to me but great for stills. I know nothing much about indigos render times or anything else but it improves iclones 6's appearance. Is it practical, can you render a frame in 10s or so using high end kit, dunno? I not is 30s practical, that might work? 2 to 3 minutes, forget it, not for me, too slow.
Mr Akuei2
The still you showed me using just lighting etc was marvellous but can it transfer to animation?
All
What I haven't said is I am relatively new to all this with no agenda except to learn how to make good shit and to share whatever I have learnt which unfortunately is not as much as you guys so I am for the moment reliant on you. Iclone is far better than I am for now and maybe forever. Its fucking brilliant and real quick too which is why I am interested in it. I am 57 years old with no property and limited resources so I will have to earn a living again soon so maybe iclone will do this for me? I got shitloads to say so if I get quick enough I can say it in iclone, maybe?. Can I sell it, who knows, I ain't got all my eggs in one basket but this is real interesting, a TV studio in my bedroom. Am I looking for shortcuts, too fucking right but maybe I will have to learn more? Who can tell.
Any assistance greatly appreciated, anything you want to clarify just ask, any criticism of anything I say go ahead as I always need to be taken down to earth as having my head in the clouds is totally useless.
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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I honestly dont understand what kind of advice you are seeking sir. First 2-3 minutes per frame is extremely good depending your quality target. However as I said earlier, the rendering situation for iclone users depend greatly upon what version of Iclone they have purchas
The apparent tiny minority, on this forum at least, who have the full Pipeline with export of BVH/FBX/Alembic are likely exporting either motion Data or preanimated figures to other programs to rende
( I use Maxon Cinema4D& lightwave). The Apparent majority who only use Iclone to render films seem happy with its internal render engine. Those with the money for upper end NVDIA hardware and alot of patience will now have IRay as a paid render option. You only need decide where you fit into this paradigm and proceed from there with your plans for animated storytelling.
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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i can get the same quality, as iray. or octane , with unity.. .you have resources to mimetize Iray features.
- powerfull shader scripts, light probes, reflection probes, progressive light mapper, pre-cached gi. a powerfull post processing stack
with amazing AO, screen space reflections, bloom, correct glow, powerfull emissives , linear color, powerfull color correction inside unity working with extra color space. amazing antialiass using TAA, all this rendering at 90 frames per seconds or more. so; i realy dont care about iray or octane anymore
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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Iclone VXGI, go flicks , iclone HBAO+ go flicks. the anti alias sux, DOF sux ( yet ) , render with supersampling is slow.
and iray inside iclone.. humm i have sure is not suitable for render long animations. so i just see iclone as a beast character animation program, all other things, maybe in 2 years.
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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Indeed but you have to own pipeline to get your animated figures out to unity I render in maxon C4D & Lightwave.
Many here are restricted iclone rendering without pipeline and only have the Iclone native or the optional slow ,unidirectional ,brute force path tracer from NVDIA.
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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i finishing a job for a client , and i will start work on my course "Unity for Icloners" very soon
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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I have found with 8 GPU that Iray still is a slower *rendering* methodology compared to 8 GPU with Octane Render, but Iray offers the convenience of auto-conversion.
You literally have to stop-watch and time yourself in absolute terms to see which is faster with your entire start to finish workflow.
Because, creating a scene, exporting a scene out, and setting up/touching up materials and lighting externally in Octane, Unity, UE4, Blender, or whatever, is in all circumstances added time to the equation.
The game changer will be Real Time ray tracing like they show off with RTX, but, those Quadro RTX 8000 Turing 48GB Vram cards they use cost $10K.
I'm talking 1080p also with this...
HOWEVER, render at low res, and you can do quite a bit on 1 GPU!
ie -if its just a quick .giff with a small Width-x-Height size, you can do Iray animations quite readily
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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Realtime rendering ANIMATION , iclone promisse using a game engine like unity and unreal. . passing 2 years. and reallusion dont bring it. and now offer a alternative called iray. thx i dont need that. and yes i proud of my workflow is a result of many study and dedication to my project
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/12/2018)
Realtime rendering ANIMATION , iclone promisse using a game engine like unity and unreal. . passing 2 years. and reallusion dont bring it. and now offer a alternative called iray. thx i dont need that. and yes i proud of my workflow is a result of many study and dedication to my project
Dude, I agree with you, beside the render quality IC7 still a awesome animation tool. I thought, unity or ue4 can cover up each disadvantage & advantage became a nice combo.
Hi, look up forward your tutorial. ( price ... )
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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akuei2 (10/12/2018)
wildstar (10/12/2018)
Realtime rendering ANIMATION , iclone promisse using a game engine like unity and unreal. . passing 2 years. and reallusion dont bring it. and now offer a alternative called iray. thx i dont need that. and yes i proud of my workflow is a result of many study and dedication to my project Dude, I agree with you, beside the render quality IC7 still a awesome animation tool. I thought, unity or ue4 can cover up each disadvantage & advantage became a nice combo. Hi, look up forward your tutorial. ( price ... )
thx man, i will define price after end the production of the course. the language is a barrier for me. maybe i rec the course using my native language and put CC in english
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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Actually, has Unity a raytrace option yet, or soon?
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By will2power71 - 6 Years Ago
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Call me crazy, but I'm not really all that interested in Iray for iClone IF it's not going to support the plugins I have spent my time and money purchasing. All this time getting together speedtrees, PopcornFX, UN Taskforce weapons with all their affects and such makes Iray seem like a step in the wrong direction. I'm not interested in rendering still images. I'm interested in rendering animations. When you start pushing Iray, you basically have to set aside all that stuff for the most part. So why would I try to render in Iray and be cut off from all my special effects? At first I was a little excited but I realize that Iray is not going to enhance any of those plugins so I'm left with wishing it did. So with that in mind, I'm just not going to expend the money on it unless that changes. I think it's great for stills, but it's not going to help my animations, so I'm just going to have to let this one pass.
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (10/12/2018)
Actually, has Unity a raytrace option yet, or soon?
no.. exists progressive lightmapping using AMD rays technology, but with new HD render pipeline Unity dont need raytrace. who really undestand the 2 engines, know unity is more flexible than unreal, and equal in visual resources. now with HD render pipeline (still in preview not recomended for comercial projects )unity break all barriers with powerfull shaders, volumetrics effects, SSS in realtime, all working amazing togheter with post processing stack . about Global ilumination, pre - cached GI + light probes or progressive light mapping + ligh probes , works better with screen space effects like AO, screen space reflections etc, this mean NO FLICKS! like i see on iclone VXGI or Toolbag 3 VXGI, Blender Eevee is a copy of Unity in visual resources use all unity uses with other names.
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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will2power71 (10/12/2018)
Call me crazy, but I'm not really all that interested in Iray for iClone IF it's not going to support the plugins I have spent my time and money purchasing. All this time getting together speedtrees, PopcornFX, UN Taskforce weapons with all their affects and such makes Iray seem like a step in the wrong direction. I'm not interested in rendering still images. I'm interested in rendering animations. When you start pushing Iray, you basically have to set aside all that stuff for the most part. So why would I try to render in Iray and be cut off from all my special effects? At first I was a little excited but I realize that Iray is not going to enhance any of those plugins so I'm left with wishing it did. So with that in mind, I'm just not going to expend the money on it unless that changes. I think it's great for stills, but it's not going to help my animations, so I'm just going to have to let this one pass.
NVIDIA is a graphics hardware company that offers IRay to 3D software companies to foment sales of their graphics hardware. A classic loss leader business model under capitalism ,nothing wrong with this paradigm. It seems Reallusion is trying to expand it user base to include still render portrait artists as IRay,in its current iteration, will likely not provide acceptable render times for majority of the animators in the Iclone community. So it no surprise that many of the native Iclone render effects wont work in IRay as those effects are for animators. Those who do not own pipeline and have no external render options, may want to occasionally render high quality still images of stuff Now (like the Daz studio users) they will have the option to do so in with IRay in Iclone or CC3 stand alone. |
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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AutoDidact (10/13/2018)
will2power71 (10/12/2018)
Call me crazy, but I'm not really all that interested in Iray for iClone IF it's not going to support the plugins I have spent my time and money purchasing. All this time getting together speedtrees, PopcornFX, UN Taskforce weapons with all their affects and such makes Iray seem like a step in the wrong direction. I'm not interested in rendering still images. I'm interested in rendering animations. When you start pushing Iray, you basically have to set aside all that stuff for the most part. So why would I try to render in Iray and be cut off from all my special effects? At first I was a little excited but I realize that Iray is not going to enhance any of those plugins so I'm left with wishing it did. So with that in mind, I'm just not going to expend the money on it unless that changes. I think it's great for stills, but it's not going to help my animations, so I'm just going to have to let this one pass.
NVIDIA is a graphics hardware company that offers IRay to 3D software companies to foment sales of their graphics hardware. A classic loss leader business model under capitalism ,nothing wrong with this paradigm. It seems Reallusion is trying to expand it user base to include still render portrait artists as IRay,in its current iteration, will likely not provide acceptable render times for majority of the animators in the Iclone community. So it no surprise that many of the native Iclone render effects wont work in IRay as those effects are for animators. Those who do not own pipeline and have no external render options, may want to occasionally render high quality still images of stuff Now (like the Daz studio users) they will have the option to do so in with IRay in Iclone or CC3 stand alone.
IMHO，daz user is hard to switch over to cc3 with iray plugin. because a free reason & losing detail when model export out from daz environment. Only the guy, who wanted daz content move around( animating ) , the will support cc3 but not iray plugin.
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By drbernie - 6 Years Ago
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The IRay for IClone issues discussed here (no support for reflections, no support for Popcorn FX, and possibly others issues), are they implementation issues that will be resolved in future releases, or they cannot be implemented at all and that is all IRay for IClone will ever be?
If it's the former, one can wait, but if it's the latter then IRay for IClone would be of quite limited use, afaiac.
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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Autodidaact
Firstly I'd like to thank you and others for your advice and information, I think I got what I need for now.
I'm new to all this, been playing with iclone for a year or so, on and off. My skills are limited but I am working on them slowly and they are improving. Its a bit like talking but not being able or quick enough to say what you mean in a timely and clear fashion. It was frustrating but now I am slowing down as I have realised skills develop in their own good time as long as you practice consistently and what I want is irrelvant if I don't do my time.
All of this was about getting a shortcut to make things look better partly to cover up my lack of ability in so many things including lighting, set design etc. I was hoping iray would cure all my ills and maybe its a possibilty for the future but for now I think its more important I develop my basic skills including speed so I am not stuttering so much.
I think what I want to do is a bit different to many others, news / light entertainment / comedy. This requires me too get real quick and have "good enough" graphics as my strength is writng (hopefully) as I've done that for many years. Writing for video is a bit different, a different language but ideas are not the problem its the technical stuff for now so as I said Iray was interesting as I thought it would be a shortcut, quality at the press of a button and it might be, once I am competent.
As for render times I wnat to be able to churn out 5 mins per week, the higher the quality the better. If the render time was lets say 2 mins per frame by my calculation I would get no more than 3.5 mins per week using iclone to render 24/7 so its not practical for now.
There is also the question of exporting into other programs to improve quality. Once again not practical for now as I haven't got the basic skills in iclone and I think Iclone has many possibilities without Iray as long as you keep it simple and don't try to do a Hollywood Blockbuster or something well beyond ones abilities. I got 7.3 and its certainly better than me so until I reach the point where the quality I produce stops improving I will stick with it for now.
I have seen what others are doing and I am beginning to get an appreciation of the skills they have and maybe the time it takes to do it. I think a lot of this will be beyond me just because I don't have the time to devout to animation because there are other things I have to do. As I said I am looking for volume, quick and good enough. What good enough is I am not quite sure yet but when I see it I will know, if I ever get that far.
I hope this makes sense and once again I apreciate the information you have provided, its has been real useful.
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/13/2018)
TonyDPrime (10/12/2018)
Actually, has Unity a raytrace option yet, or soon?no.. exists progressive lightmapping using AMD rays technology, but with new HD render pipeline Unity dont need raytrace. who really undestand the 2 engines, know unity is more flexible than unreal, and equal in visual resources. now with HD render pipeline (still in preview not recomended for comercial projects )unity break all barriers with powerfull shaders, volumetrics effects, SSS in realtime, all working amazing togheter with post processing stack . about Global ilumination, pre - cached GI + light probes or progressive light mapping + ligh probes , works better with screen space effects like AO, screen space reflections etc, this mean NO FLICKS! like i see on iclone VXGI or Toolbag 3 VXGI, Blender Eevee is a copy of Unity in visual resources use all unity uses with other names.
Everyone, here you go!
Wildstar just listed a number of features that would better iClone's realtime PBR native renderer.
If everyone would request these items instead of lamenting Iray's inability to match realtime, you could actually get what you want!
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By animagic - 6 Years Ago
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I'm awaiting a coherent Feedback Tracker entry to vote for. As it is, I don't really understand what's being requested and what is realistically commercially available.
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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animagic (10/14/2018)
I'm awaiting a coherent Feedback Tracker entry to vote for. As it is, I don't really understand what's being requested and what is realistically commercially available.
We can use Unity, UE4, and Eevee as the starting point for items specifically step by step that could enhance realtime, these are in these 3 engines in one form or another:
1) antialiasing (rounding edges objects and shadows with detail in HD)
2) SSS channels (sub surface lighting effects)
3) volumetric effects (densities to visual environment)
4) progressive light mapping (real time path tracer to bake lighting, bridges live dynamic lighting with baking)
5 ) screen space reflections (so items can reflect off each other)
6) Powerful Shaders- preset templates for different shader types (skin, metals, lights, cloth, liquids, plants, special effects, etc)
Imagine if RL said these are coming to iClone next update!
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (10/14/2018)
animagic (10/14/2018)
I'm awaiting a coherent Feedback Tracker entry to vote for. As it is, I don't really understand what's being requested and what is realistically commercially available.We can use Unity, UE4, and Eevee as the starting point for items specifically step by step that could enhance realtime, these are in these 3 engines in one form or another: 1) antialiasing (rounding edges objects and shadows with detail in HD) 2) SSS channels (sub surface lighting effects) 3) volumetric effects (densities to visual environment) 4) progressive light mapping (real time path tracer to bake lighting, bridges live dynamic lighting with baking) 5 ) screen space reflections (so items can reflect off each other) 6) Powerful Shaders- preset templates for different shader types (skin, metals, lights, cloth, liquids, plants, special effects, etc) Imagine if RL said these are coming to iClone next update!
Dude, you're drunk ...
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By wires - 6 Years Ago
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akuei2 (10/14/2018)
Dude, you're drunk ...
A constructive comment is one thing, but insulting people with gutter statements is another.    
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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Nope, what I mean " these guy think too much"。RL won't follow these path currently ( maybe at future ... ). RL had own mystery‘s agenda.
Therefore, don't expect too much & disappoint it alone. After that, blame RL again.
User only can grope in dark, seeking own pipeline method
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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akuei2 (10/14/2018)
Nope, what I mean " these guy think too much"。RL won't follow these path currently ( maybe at future ... ). RL had own mystery‘s agenda. Therefore, don't expect too much & disappoint it alone. After that, blame RL again. User only can grope in dark, seeking own pipeline method
One has to consider the cost of developing and implementing a completely new render engine and how much those development costs would add to the retail price of the software.
Iclone& even CC3 has a Multi tiered pricing structure that seems well thought out to serve the needs of a user base with diverse end user requirements.
Lets be honest, the Iclone internal "render engine" has always been "sub par" compared even to what we had in apps like poser ten years ago.
But that is how Iclone was able to be "realtime" in an era where only game engines had this kind of viewport performance.
Impementing a new render engine across all versions of Iclone would raise the price signifigantly IMHO.
So rather than make Iclone more expensive for everyone..or force feed us one officially supported PAID third party engine that will exclude many users who do not own massive GPU's (Indigo,Iray),
Reallusion Also gives us the option of upgrading to 3DX pipeline pro or CC3 pipeline pro with the ability to export motion Data or FBX& Alembic to one of the many external render engines: free (Blender ,Unity,Unreal,Daz 3Delight) or paid (Modo,Lightwave,Octane,Marmoset etc) If you are not already invested in pipeline but want better render options be prepared to pay more in some fashion or another.
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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Indeed. Pipeline such a one majority advantage of RL product.
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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cause that i just use iclone cause its a beast character animation and a complete pipeline to create characters. and for that realllusion deserve congratulattions, iclone today beat softwares for character animation like maya and blender. cause yours simplicity and power. but .. all other things are a mess. the render system is a mess, the light and shadow system is amess..the layer system for screen space effects is a mess and a flick festival. i just dont count with it anymore and pass last 6 months studing unity for my project, iclone + unity = power to little animation studios.
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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i just dont wait for reallusion anymore cause i undestand , for iclone can be like unity and unreal is today, reallusion need more 2 or 3 years. sad but true
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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Animagic has the right idea (focused, like always), that we might consider coherently organizing a list of what we want for native render and vote on it in FBT. Other than that you will need multi GPU to have Iray as an animation option.
Thanks to Gerry for also encouraging a constructive discussion, because there seems to be assumptions thrown around that advancements in the Native renderer will be costly, even if at all possible. But (1) Unity, UE4, and Blender have them, and (2) each of these engines is free.
I mean as far as the list I put forth, what else you think you would want, or not want?
And I wouldn't expect things are realized tomorrow, but for real, I'll write up the FBT myself!
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By illusionLAB - 6 Years Ago
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Consider that RL didn't create the PBR engine... but rather licensed the same one that Marmoset and Sketchfab are built upon (Substance Designer + 3D Coat too), the 'realistic' request would be to ask for similar quality and features the other companies have managed - most importantly "better anti-aliasing" on final renders. Let's face it, all the other 'features' on the wish list are pointless if fine details are going to buzz like they do with the current 'super sampling' - nobody will notice how cool your SSS or Volumetric lighting is if your characters and sets are alive with "sawtooth lines buzzing" everywhere.
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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[ there seems to be assumptions thrown around that advancements in the Native renderer will be costly, even if at all possible. But (1) Unity, UE4, and Blender have them, and (2) each of these engines is free.
Ilf!
Reallusion is not using the same business model as Unity,Unreal or Blender Unity and Unreal are using a classic "loss leader" business model by providing a free base platform as means to sell Commercial game assets at their online stores.
Daz is doing similar for their still render asset stor.
Blender is supported by the Blender foundationand they Do Sell commercial addons for blender.
To make use of "free "engine in Unity for rendering your animated stories you will have to either have a real character animation program such as Iclone pro pipeline ,Maya,Max or motionbuilder to export to unity.
Or Buy over $300 USD worth of Third party commercial plugins such Umotion ,Puppetmaster & final IK to create Chracter animation in Unity and still not have the complete system we have in Iclone.
The only program that has Character motionbuilding & editing tools on the level of Iclone, with a high quality render engine is Maya and Autodesk requires a monthly financial commitment to keep your software functional being subscription only.
Most seem happy with the native engine in Iclone My advice for those who are not happy is to upgrade to pipeline and access one of the many external rendering options.
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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illusionLAB (10/14/2018)
Consider that RL didn't create the PBR engine... but rather licensed the same one that Marmoset and Sketchfab are built upon (Substance Designer + 3D Coat too), the 'realistic' request would be to ask for similar quality and features the other companies have managed - most importantly "better anti-aliasing" on final renders. Let's face it, all the other 'features' on the wish list are pointless if fine details are going to buzz like they do with the current 'super sampling' - nobody will notice how cool your SSS or Volumetric lighting is if your characters and sets are alive with "sawtooth lines buzzing" everywhere.
Okay, so imagine we get better anti-aliasing- you would want the other stuff?
-Yes or No
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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AutoDidact (10/14/2018)
[ there seems to be assumptions thrown around that advancements in the Native renderer will be costly, even if at all possible. But (1) Unity, UE4, and Blender have them, and (2) each of these engines is free.
Ilf! Reallusion is not using the same business model as Unity,Unreal or Blender Unity and Unreal are using a classic "loss leader" business model by providing a free base platform as means to sell Commercial game assets at their online stores.
Daz is doing similar for their still render asset stor.
Blender is supported by the Blender foundationand they Do Sell commercial addons for blender.
To make use of "free "engine in Unity for rendering your animated stories you will have to either have a real character animation program such as Iclone pro pipeline ,Maya,Max or motionbuilder to export to unity.
Or Buy over $300 USD worth of Third party commercial plugins such Umotion ,Puppetmaster & final IK to create Chracter animation in Unity and still not have the complete system we have in Iclone.
The only program that has Character motionbuilding & editing tools on the level of Iclone, with a high quality render engine is Maya and Autodesk requires a monthly financial commitment to keep your software functional being subscription only.
Most seem happy with the native engine in Iclone My advice for those who are not happy is to upgrade to pipeline and access one of the many external rendering options.
So if they added the features from the list into the engine as part of an update, would you want that update?
-Yes or No
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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So if they added the features from the list into the engine as part of an update, would you want that update?
-Yes or No
In general an updated render engine would be good for Iclone overall so yes I am in favor of RL updating the engine for people who do not own Pipeline with all of the export options.
Now would I personally buy that update?? Well I am a bit of an outlier here. I only need Iclone for the Character motion creation& editing tools to be retargeted to my Daz genesis figures or my Endorphin ragdoll Actors Via 3DXchange.
Dont care about" popcornFX""speed trees" etc. etc. etc. I am also a daz clothing&content developer so I dont care about the Reallusion (or Daz) content stores or have any practical use for Character creator to be Frank about it.
I already own Pipeline 6.5 I already have access to multiple external render options Via FBX or Alembic. I can render My Iclone animated Characters in my seat of Lightwave 2015, or my Cinema4D standard engine or VRay for C4D as well as the option to use Blender or Unity (as Wild star is doing.)
So it is not likely that a better RL internal engine would Give me better rendering and visual effects and compositing options that could supplant my current rendering pipeline. But still...yes RL should give you guys a better internal render engine.. it is long overdue.
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By illusionLAB - 6 Years Ago
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Okay, so imagine we get better anti-aliasing- you would want the other stuff?
-Yes or No
Yes... but not at the expense of "real time" performance. Anti-aliasing and 'full quality' volumetrics, SSS and better DOF etc. would all happen at the render stage - so the only performance hit would be render times, leaving that up to us to decide on "personally acceptable" results and render times.
I'm weary of other features that would need 'real time' display though as performance is already suffering in iC7 when you compare it to iC6.5. It's all very well to aspire to Unity/Unreal looking visuals, but remember they are "playback" engines not full animation programs... keeping every animatable parameter 'live' eats up resources that game engines don't have to worry about and can harness for enhanced visuals.
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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illusionLAB (10/15/2018)
Okay, so imagine we get better anti-aliasing- you would want the other stuff?
-Yes or No
Yes... but not at the expense of "real time" performance. Anti-aliasing and 'full quality' volumetrics, SSS and better DOF etc. would all happen at the render stage - so the only performance hit would be render times, leaving that up to us to decide on "personally acceptable" results and render times.
I'm weary of other features that would need 'real time' display though as performance is already suffering in iC7 when you compare it to iC6.5. It's all very well to aspire to Unity/Unreal looking visuals, but remember they are "playback" engines not full animation programs... keeping every animatable parameter 'live' eats up resources that game engines don't have to worry about and can harness for enhanced visuals.
i call iclone , toolbag, lumion, twinmotion, element 3d, fusion, etc, "realtime engines for artists." the problems of iclone , toolbag, and twinmotion is the same.. the use of VXGI, for a time i believe VXGI is good, but get a look at that. NVIDIA its your creator and NVIDIA actualy dont give a * for it, the last upadte nvidia do for VXGI was a joke. VXGI dont works good with screen space effects, in my opnion , VXGI make so hard reallusion do a correct tunning for your screen space effects ( HBAO+, DOF, GLOW,HDR ) and i believe iclone dont have screen space reflection cause VXGI. Lumion use a old engine with a lot of screen space effects developed by the own develop team, and that guys do a miracle. the results you can get with lumion 8 are amazing, Twinmotion , toolbag, and iclone suffer with same problem . the use of VXGI. you can see flickers wiht emissives, lights in motion, HBAO+ on screen sides flickering or desapearing., all 3 have problems cause VXGI in my opnion. now i masterized unity i undestand why is better use unity or unreal, this engines use solutions old and rock solid.. for realtime visuals. Eevee is a example of new engine dont make the same mistakes of iclone/toolbag/twinmotion.. its uses lightprobes logic with other name "radiance probes" i hope reallusion undestand it in a future and make the same choice. of Eevee. i really believe if iclone still using VXGI, the screen space effects never will be work ok. as TAA wil never work for render frames.. its sad. but true.. cause that i dont use iclone for rendering nothing... ( the last time i got the slowmotion bug ) but i already decided dont use it anymore before it.
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/16/2018)
illusionLAB (10/15/2018)
Okay, so imagine we get better anti-aliasing- you would want the other stuff?
-Yes or No
Yes... but not at the expense of "real time" performance. Anti-aliasing and 'full quality' volumetrics, SSS and better DOF etc. would all happen at the render stage - so the only performance hit would be render times, leaving that up to us to decide on "personally acceptable" results and render times.
I'm weary of other features that would need 'real time' display though as performance is already suffering in iC7 when you compare it to iC6.5. It's all very well to aspire to Unity/Unreal looking visuals, but remember they are "playback" engines not full animation programs... keeping every animatable parameter 'live' eats up resources that game engines don't have to worry about and can harness for enhanced visuals. i call iclone , toolbag, lumion, twinmotion, element 3d, fusion, etc, "realtime engines for artists." the problems of iclone , toolbag, and twinmotion is the same.. the use of VXGI, for a time i believe VXGI is good, but get a look at that. NVIDIA its your creator and NVIDIA actualy dont give a * for it, the last upadte nvidia do for VXGI was a joke. VXGI dont works good with screen space effects, in my opnion , VXGI make so hard reallusion do a correct tunning for your screen space effects ( HBAO+, DOF, GLOW,HDR ) and i believe iclone dont have screen space reflection cause VXGI. Lumion use a old engine with a lot of screen space effects developed by the own develop team, and that guys do a miracle. the results you can get with lumion 8 are amazing, Twinmotion , toolbag, and iclone suffer with same problem . the use of VXGI. you can see flickers wiht emissives, lights in motion, HBAO+ on screen sides flickering or desapearing., all 3 have problems cause VXGI in my opnion. now i masterized unity i undestand why is better use unity or unreal, this engines use solutions old and rock solid.. for realtime visuals. Eevee is a example of new engine dont make the same mistakes of iclone/toolbag/twinmotion.. its uses lightprobes logic with other name "radiance probes" i hope reallusion undestand it in a future and make the same choice. of Eevee. i really believe if iclone still using VXGI, the screen space effects never will be work ok. as TAA wil never work for render frames.. its sad. but true.. cause that i dont use iclone for rendering nothing... ( the last time i got the slowmotion bug ) but i already decided dont use it anymore before it.
Wildstar, thanks for reminding everyone here about Lumion's abilities....Lumion is not free, but nonetheless it shows what is possible.
So, what would be the alternative to VXGI for iClone, and also, it looks like there is a VXGI v2.0...
(Actually you had asked about v2.0 in a previous thread. But in that thread, we got diverted talking about the then upcoming Iray, and Unity, which you were newly investigating at the time.)
Interesting, this thread was about Iray, and now is about VXGI and v2.0...Ah...see? the universe balances out!
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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my point is .. Iray is a feedback for comunity cause, iclone 7 with VXGI and PBR just.. dont works. its problematic.
for who dont want learn how to use engines like unity , unreal or Eevee, will be a option... but , for me its prove, reallusion
cant do the job done to deliver a realtime engine for artists at the level of unreal or unity.. but reallusion its not alone.
toolbag is failling too * but toolbag call your self a devlook tool so its ok . twinmotion is losing for lumion and failing too with VXGI
so its not the reallusion fault in my opnion. just abandon VXGI on iclone 8
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/16/2018)
just abandon VXGI on iclone 8
Okay great, so you feel many of the real-time issues iClone has are tied to its use of VXGI, which is a Nvidia voxel-based lighting framework that iClone uses.
And whereas, Unity and UE4 do not use VXGI, so they are not bound to any limits or issues of VXGI, and that is why we can see them achieving different things visually.
Am I generally correct here in summarizing? (Not trying to question, just trying to learn.)
And so, what direction should they should move towards to replace VXGI with:
(1) their own framework, or
(2) is there another brand's iteration of such engine already in play that you would rather see them use?
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By wildstar - 6 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (10/17/2018)
wildstar (10/16/2018)
just abandon VXGI on iclone 8 Okay great, so you feel many of the real-time issues iClone has are tied to its use of VXGI, which is a Nvidia voxel-based lighting framework that iClone uses. And whereas, Unity and UE4 do not use VXGI, so they are not bound to any limits or issues of VXGI, and that is why we can see them achieving different things visually. Am I generally correct here in summarizing? (Not trying to question, just trying to learn.) And so, what direction should they should move towards to replace VXGI with: (1) their own framework, or (2) is there another brand's iteration of such engine already in play that you would rather see them use?
Use whats unity uses since almost 8 years.... unity uses PBR since 2010 i believe( not sure ) iclone uses PBR ok..
Unity have realtime GI since 2015 with light probes and pre cached gi using cubing map techniques. and unity and unreal develop all this screen space effects to use with this techiniques ... or precached gi or baked gi... so AO works ok , screen space effects works ok, DOF, and all screen space effects ... its more solid , full fps fast edit. VXGI, dont works ok with screen space effects. NVIDIA dont care about VXGI. believe me. Eevee use the same logic of light probres with another name, radiance probes. in deep its all the same concept , cubic enviroment. but is rock solid , fast and give the same effect. reallusion can do the same use the same concept and call ti . reallusion probes or anything. reallusion do a excelent job with VXGI, and your screen space effects. its deserve congratz. but VXGI is problematic , its FLICS! . and still having problems with HBAO+ in screen borders. still having problems with glow , still having problems with DOF. and the ausence of a powerfull material system is much strong..
Realtime GI on unity since 2015 using cubic maps techiniques. AKA - pre cached GI -
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By Rottadamic - 6 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/17/2018)
but VXGI is problematic , its FLICS! . and still having problems with HBAO+ in screen borders. still having problems with glow , still having problems with DOF. .
my number 1 irritation!
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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Dear Mr Wildstar,
You have shown me what I want, The Unity 5 lighting demo, its photo relaistic or as good as.
The next bits gonna be real hard for me, how was that done, how long did it take to render, how easy is it to do the stuff iclone does in Unity.
These might be hard questions and I do not aspire to be able to do it myself as I am still struggling with iclone so I really do need to stick with that for now, but fuck me........ thats real good.
Maybe iclone can do that but I have never seen it done.
Any info you can give would be helpful for my future plans but I am a niovice, I don't understand a lot, so maybe its impossible????? I don't care I like impossible!!!! It keeps me honest innit
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By pwnz7321 - 6 Years Ago
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IRAY render times may be helped if Reallusion is able to add cloud based rendering services.
"*The Development Team is looking into cloud-based rendering service, but we can't promise anything at this moment."
This was posted with the original IRAY post https://forum.reallusion.com/374900/Iray-Plugin-for-iClone-7-and-Character-Creator-3
Has anyone heard of any updates about this?
EDIT: Looked into the prices and they are kind of insane especially if you don't want it to take forever to render a scene.
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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Using a render farm is only practical if you are doing commercial work where you and pass the render farm cost's onto the client who is demanding that level of final quality.
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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This whole thread has been real interesting for me. I have learnt the limitations of iclone, somewhat, and I have learnt that to do what want requires a team of people using current technology as everything is rather complicated if you want to produce quality gear whether it be stylised art or photrealism. However regarding photprealism the link below is real interesting and is possibly the answer for me, photorealism without a team of 200 people taking 18 months to produce a 20 minute segment at a cost of million, path tracing and Optane 4, whateever that is. Will this be available cheap within 5 years? Who cares, I'm patient as I'm real old but dont give a shit no more so we shall see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrF4k6wJ-do
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By 3d guy1 - 6 Years Ago
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Optane 4, whateever that is
Octane 4 is a top rendering engine. Now available in Unity, and in 21, yep- count em 21, 3D and graphic apps.
Available as a convenient plugin. It's known industry wide. I've requested it to be made available to Iclone 7.
But more support from this forum would help.
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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Tell me what to do or who to pester. I've liked iclone from the get go even though I had horrendous problems with reliabilty until 7.2 I think. I think its better than previz and used with skill its TV quality but if they want to take it to the next level it needs to be more reliable and easier to use in terms of getting high ouput quality. I have now hit a glass ceiling or whatever because I don't have the broad range of skills required to do what I want and don't have the time to aquire them given other commitments and most importantly interests. I don't regret buying iclone as I have gained an understanding of how to produce videos and what the difficulties are which I would never have got any other way. However given what I have said I am not sure if I can progress any further for the moment. Better renders would not solve my problem as there are no alternatives to having decent skills but it would mean iclone could produce better quality quicker than other programmes which is what I want, maybe in collaboration with others. Anyway enough of my insignificant problems, tell me how to support your position regarding improvement of quality, if you fancy?
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By 3d guy1 - 6 Years Ago
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Hi,
suggestions I would make are:
1. Post to the support tracker. There's a selection for suggestions.
{ dont know if you can keep posting, over time, to remind people }
2. Keep talking it up in forum posts. The majority of folks here don't seem too experienced in general 3D. If they were
they would know more about rendering options, and certainly Octane. They would be more likely to be pursuing it also.
There's a groundswell here crying for better rendering. But I don't think they know the options. So help educate.
hope that helps.
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By Dr. Nemesis - 6 Years Ago
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andrewlargin (11/1/2018)
I have now hit a glass ceiling or whatever because I don't have the broad range of skills required to do what I want and don't have the time to aquire them given other commitments and most importantly interests... I am not sure if I can progress any further for the moment. Better renders would not solve my problem as there are no alternatives to having decent skills...
IMO this should be the overall moral of the thread. It was an interesting question but ultimately andrew's words are wise.
I watched a video today that was animated with Iclone but rendered externally, with what I'm not sure but Iray seems likely.
The render quality looked okay to good. Certainly better than what Iclone can produce render quality wise. But that's where the good stuff ended.
The animation was really bad, worse than marionettes, facial animation non existent, lip sync awful, cinematography basic at best, depth of field either missing in most shots or misused, and worst of all, I couldn't understand a word of what any character was saying. Put short, it was a complete mess. Not to mention that when you have a high quality render people actually expect higher quality body and facial animation.
The render quality did not make my viewing experience even a little bit less painful.
Rendering is one of the last steps in this process. Before then there's a whole world of stuff that matters way more. Without grasping those skills Iray can't be a game changer, no matter how fast any of us can get it to render. After something good has actually been made through Iclone, yes, it's possible to say rendering makes a difference. But as I've said before, I can count the number of times I've seen such an Iclone video on one hand and still have fingers to spare.
You know what would be a game changer? 5% of the Iclone community making a push to improve their craft. Though I rarely notice threads or posts encouraging such a thing.
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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Dr. Nemesis (11/1/2018)
andrewlargin (11/1/2018)
I have now hit a glass ceiling or whatever because I don't have the broad range of skills required to do what I want and don't have the time to aquire them given other commitments and most importantly interests... I am not sure if I can progress any further for the moment. Better renders would not solve my problem as there are no alternatives to having decent skills...
IMO this should be the overall moral of the thread. It was an interesting question but ultimately andrew's words are wise. I watched a video today that was animated with Iclone but rendered externally, with what I'm not sure but Iray seems likely. The render quality looked okay to good. Certainly better than what Iclone can produce render quality wise. But that's where the good stuff ended. The animation was really bad, worse than marionettes, facial animation non existent, lip sync awful, cinematography basic at best, depth of field either missing in most shots or misused, and worst of all, I couldn't understand a word of what any character was saying. Put short, it was a complete mess. Not to mention that when you have a high quality render people actually expect higher quality body and facial animation.
The render quality did not make my viewing experience even a little bit less painful. Rendering is one of the last steps in this process. Before then there's a whole world of stuff that matters way more. Without grasping those skills Iray can't be a game changer, no matter how fast any of us can get it to render. After something good has actually been made through Iclone, yes, it's possible to say rendering makes a difference. But as I've said before, I can count the number of times I've seen such an Iclone video on one hand and still have fingers to spare. You know what would be a game changer? 5% of the Iclone community making a push to improve their craft. Though I rarely notice threads or posts encouraging such a thing.
I agree completely As much As I love Iclone's procedural animation tools. IMHO it causes Too many people fall into the bad habit of "Kitbashing" motion clips without any further refinement I think making the curve editor an included feature of Iclone base would be better for the user base than tacking on yet another engine like octane etc. This thread shows that us external render guys already have option free &paid. I use the paid graphMate spline curve editor add-on in Daz studio to refine my Iclone BVH after import back to Daz.
This Reallusion video is an excellent demonstration of why we ALL need a spline graph graph editor!!.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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Dr. Nemesis (11/1/2018)
You know what would be a game changer? 5% of the Iclone community making a push to improve their craft. Though I rarely notice threads or posts encouraging such a thing.
I agree with most of what you said. Nice rendering is good to have, but it will not save a bad video.
To your last point, I have seen a lot of discussion about the "art" of making movies, but usually those conversations are buried in other threads and scattered around the forum. A while ago we had a sizable campaign to start one or two new forum sections, and one would be about "making movies" where the focus would not be on iClone technical issues, but rather, lighting, camera angles, script, color grading, sets and environment.... but Reallusion has not yet acted on those suggestions that were enthusiatically supported by many users.
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By AutoDidact - 6 Years Ago
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justaviking (11/2/2018)
Dr. Nemesis (11/1/2018)
You know what would be a game changer? 5% of the Iclone community making a push to improve their craft. Though I rarely notice threads or posts encouraging such a thing.I agree with most of what you said. Nice rendering is good to have, but it will not save a bad video. To your last point, I have seen a lot of discussion about the "art" of making movies, but usually those conversations are buried in other threads and scattered around the forum. A while ago we had a sizable campaign to start one or two new forum sections, and one would be about "making movies" where the focus would not be on iClone technical issues, but rather, lighting, camera angles, script, color grading, sets and environment.... but Reallusion has not yet acted on those suggestions that were enthusiatically supported by many users.
Hi While I would love to have a place to discuss the art of CG film making. and I think many here, would benefit from a discussion about cinematic SHOT FRAMING at a minimum. Sadly IMHO it would inevitably lead to a debate about the technical limitations of doing it all in Iclone completely vs exporting to other tools. Example The jitter you get when using the "look at" feature with Iclone cameras etc It would be interesting to perhaps start a Poll thread asking the question: who is doing complete short films or attempting feature length productions??
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By will2power71 - 6 Years Ago
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justaviking (11/2/2018)
... I have seen a lot of discussion about the "art" of making movies, but usually those conversations are buried in other threads and scattered around the forum. A while ago we had a sizable campaign to start one or two new forum sections, and one would be about "making movies" where the focus would not be on iClone technical issues, but rather, lighting, camera angles, script, color grading, sets and environment.... but Reallusion has not yet acted on those suggestions that were enthusiatically supported by many users.
I agree that there should be a more focused means of discussing techniques. I don't think adding Iray to iClone is a game changer UNLESS it's made to work with all of the tools that they've given us in iClone. My perspsective is that I spent the money on Popcornfx, Popvideo 3 and all the weapons packs with effects built into them, why would I buy a renderer that won't work with any of that? I didn't buy iClone to do still renders. I daresay that our community as a whole isn't interested in doing still renders as much as we're interested in animations. To me, there efforts would have born more fruit if they chose to focus on adding SSS to iClone's native PBR Renderer, rather than trying to get us to purchase a renderer that will basically cut you off from all the fun stuff. That's why I don't consider it a game changer You take one step forward in SSS only to lose all the special effects that iClone has to offer. I'm interested in CC3 but I don't see myself buying Iray until it does support the effects --there's just no point in that.
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By TonyDPrime - 6 Years Ago
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I think Andrew was asking originally about getting good reflections (he mentions mirrors and Car paint reflection) from iClone, and he wondered if Iray would be a game changer in granting him that power.
I do not think he was thinking how he could go about impressing or entertaining any of us with videos...
Rather, he was imagining how he could satisfy his own visual production desire. I totally sympathize on that.
Iray will give reflections, but closing in on realtime production speed at current GPU power will come at a cost (ie adding more GPU's for more speed)
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By akuei2 - 6 Years Ago
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will2power71 (11/2/2018)
justaviking (11/2/2018)
... I have seen a lot of discussion about the "art" of making movies, but usually those conversations are buried in other threads and scattered around the forum. A while ago we had a sizable campaign to start one or two new forum sections, and one would be about "making movies" where the focus would not be on iClone technical issues, but rather, lighting, camera angles, script, color grading, sets and environment.... but Reallusion has not yet acted on those suggestions that were enthusiatically supported by many users.I agree that there should be a more focused means of discussing techniques. I don't think adding Iray to iClone is a game changer UNLESS it's made to work with all of the tools that they've given us in iClone. My perspsective is that I spent the money on Popcornfx, Popvideo 3 and all the weapons packs with effects built into them, why would I buy a renderer that won't work with any of that? I didn't buy iClone to do still renders. I daresay that our community as a whole isn't interested in doing still renders as much as we're interested in animations. To me, there efforts would have born more fruit if they chose to focus on adding SSS to iClone's native PBR Renderer, rather than trying to get us to purchase a renderer that will basically cut you off from all the fun stuff. That's why I don't consider it a game changer You take one step forward in SSS only to lose all the special effects that iClone has to offer. I'm interested in CC3 but I don't see myself buying Iray until it does support the effects --there's just no point in that.
Dude, you are right. Iray costing too high until not reasonable to use it. Maybe, improve native render engine can make IC7 move further. SSS ,mirror, glass & etc .. If RL bring something like shader graph ( editor ) to cover it all. I belive, most of IC7 user were willing to paid it.
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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Sorry fopr my ignorance. Whats the support tracker? As fopr talking it up or down or anything sensible I seem to have an endless supply of that as all I wanna do is make EVERYTHING better so in that regard I will do as you say
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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I want to make vidoes that impress me first of all so the better the quality the better. I was brought up with a 14 inch black and white TV which I though was the bees bollox (an English phrase which means quite excellent in case you are not English). Now a days people are impressed with bling ie Marvel CGI graphics films of a very high quality so if you want to get a broad audience you have to emulate that somewhat as well as doing other things. As I have said iclone is fantastic as I think no other software allows a newbie like me with real limited skills to produce video on a budget. All I am doing is exploring how to make it better which seems to be what I am like. Not my fault, this striving for better but people think I am criticising for the sake of bitching. Gave up on that a while ago as its too distracting.
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By will2power71 - 6 Years Ago
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andrewlargin (11/4/2018)
Sorry fopr my ignorance. Whats the support tracker? As fopr talking it up or down or anything sensible I seem to have an endless supply of that as all I wanna do is make EVERYTHING better so in that regard I will do as you say
The Reallusion Feebacktracker is a place where you can list issues and make suggestions for improving Reallusion Products.
You can click on the link above or find it here: https://www.reallusion.com/feedbacktracker
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By will2power71 - 6 Years Ago
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My suggestion for using the feeback tracker is to search first for the issue/suggestion you want. If it's already there, just add your vote to it and comment if you want. Sometimes you can see progress and for some things it's like tossing a suggestion in a deep well that goes nowhere. One of my suggestions actually got implemented so my advice is to campaign for it if it's a feature you really want.
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By andrewlargin - 6 Years Ago
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will do
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