My first attempt with LIVE FACE IPHONE X and ICLONE

My first attempt with LIVE FACE IPHONE X and ICLONE

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https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic376276.aspx

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By charly Rama - 5 Years Ago

Hi all

I owned both systems : faceware and live face (faceshift) , I prefer faceshift. Without waiting to new characters in CC3, I think that already with Zane, we can make something not to bad. Do not pay attention to my bad accent and bad english :-) I'm french.

By sonic7 - 5 Years Ago

Impressive demonstration charly .....

By charly Rama - 5 Years Ago

thank you for your kind words, I really love live face, ad I think there is more possibilities by editing profils

By argus1000 - 5 Years Ago

This is great! Movements of the head are sometimes a little stiff ( I would certainly pass it through the graph editor) and there's not enough movements of the eyes for my taste. But it's a fantastic attempt overall. Quite realistic. Congratulations!

By Peter (RL) - 5 Years Ago

Thanks for sharing your experience with Live Face. Excellent job. Smile

By RobertoColombo - 5 Years Ago

Very realistic! Great demo!

I wonder if Apple will ever churn out a separated system for the facial capturing: I have an iPhone and makes no sense to me to spend 1K to upgrade to the iPhone X.... except for the facial capturing thing, but then the cost would be too much...

Cheers

Roberto

By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago

You mean a separate camera and computer system just for facial capture? Never say never but I can't possibly see how this would make any sense whatsoever for Apple.

Someone on another thread or place (might have been YouTube) said that Faceshift itself either works or could work with other 3D cameras -- I don't remember the exact details because it didn't interest me at all, but essentially they were saying there might be other solutions. Hell, Kinect has a 3D camera. The problem is, it's not just Faceshift but RL themselves that would have to be involved and you need to get the right alignment of factors.

For my own part I was wondering if the Faceshift data couldn't somehow be recorded coming off the iPhone and then sent to the RL application (which connects via an IP address). In that manner you could definitely remote record things (like take your iPhone with you to your actors site, without having to drag a computer and the whole iClone setup). But -- who knows?

By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago

BTW, I wanted to mention one thing -- I like this demo as well, very much. I purposely did not involve any body or head animation because I wanted to keep it very basic in my tests just to show the facial stuff, but from this it's clear how much that adds.

But -- some folks are never satisfied. I've had at least one user on YouTube say how crummy all the stuff I've posted is, not worth a thing. Now, to be fair, I had the same response from at least one or two here when using Faceware, so some folks are just all sour grapes. Personally I'm not so sure what people expect. I can see some limitations but I also am very aware of the limitations in the avatar itself. I think CC3 will make the facial animation look even better, no matter how it's done.

By RobertoColombo - 5 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (8/16/2018)

You mean a separate camera and computer system just for facial capture? Never say never but I can't possibly see how this would make any sense whatsoever for Apple.

I have the same thinking... Doze

By charly Rama - 5 Years Ago

argus1000 (8/16/2018)

Yes, you're right about eyes movements, so I increased the eyes sensibility and it's better with my Denzel washingtown avatar. And yes, I really need curve editor to smooth the head movements

By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago

Charly,

Just curious -- how are you hooked up, USB or wi-fi?

By charly Rama - 5 Years Ago

Hi , just wifi

By illusionLAB - 5 Years Ago

Faceshift was "THE" markerless facial mocap software for the Kinect before Apple scooped it up to add a few gimmicks for it's expensive toys - heck, they even bought the company that provided the technology behind the Kinect... and as Apple are not big fans of Microsoft we can be pretty sure they won't ever release Faceshift for the Kinect again. It's a shame.

I'm sure I'm not alone in having purchased a Kinect for the sole purpose of iClone's mocap and, although I've moved on from that, the idea for RL to provide a Kinect based 'facial mocap' plugin that utilizes the now 'dust collecting paper weight' they convinced me to purchase would be very much welcomed. I'm sure they could strike a deal with Brekel to implement an "iClone" version of his Pro Face V2 - which, although nowhere nearly as sophisticated as the other facial mocap systems, is actually quite usable AND could theoretically retail for less than $100 (did I mention it can track up to six faces at once). RL has nothing to lose by offering a more 'basic' solution for significantly less money - in fact, it would only strengthen their market position by offering "every budget level" support for advanced features like mocap. 2 cents spent. Wink

By sonic7 - 5 Years Ago

I couldn't agree more Mark ....
Facial Mocap, being a $1000+ setup, effectively prices out the small guy.
I've now got the Brekel body mocap - and it does a descent enough job. I've learned the basics of 'cleaning-up' - and it isn't too painful really.

By mtakerkart - 5 Years Ago

RL has nothing to lose by offering a more 'basic' solution for significantly less money

Just my 2 cents too...
If I think logic regarding what reallusion is/will developing today are bridges to existing technology in iclone.
Faceware , Live Face , Noitom , Xsens , Nvidia , Allegorythmic , Persistance studio, Instalod wich are strong companys
and therefor reliable. The Brekel man is a one guy very buisy with his microsoft work and may be not enough
strong for support. The only think that reallusion is developing (in 3D) are Iclone render and Character creation.

By the way , I just made a fast test of face Live and it's really better than faceware I onwed too.

By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago

illusionLAB (8/17/2018)

Mark,

Ah, yes, now I remember all that -- had completely forgotten that turn of events (because once Apple acquired it, I had written it off, since with the exception of my phones and iPads, I don't do much Apple work anymore. Although my old Macbook Air is still the best laptop I've ever owned).

And now it makes sense why Faceshift is so good -- and it really is, far superior to Faceware. A real shame it couldn't be implemented on other technology, but it makes me feel warmer than ever that a year ago I made the decision to go with the X (I was *this* close to just getting the iPhone 8 to upgrade my 6, but thought, why not get the top of the line just in case? I would be kicking myself in the butt if I hadn't made that decision. As it is I'm seriously considering selling my wife's 8, which I did buy at the same time, and upgrading her to an X just so I have access to 2. Assuming she'd let me -- she's VERY protective of her phone :> Wink

By argus1000 - 5 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (8/17/2018)

[quote]

And now it makes sense why Faceshift is so good -- and it really is, far superior to Faceware. .

I wish I'd see a proof of that. So far, of all the tests that have been made by you and Charly Rama, I didn't see any conclusive evidence of Faceshift superiority.

By illusionLAB - 5 Years Ago

Brekel may be a one man show, but all he would have to do is create a export file which iClone could read (like he has already done for DAZ). The RL version of Pro Face could have cosmetic changes and ONLY export, and possibly live stream, to iClone in order to justify a lower price. Not sure where the 'cons' are in this scenario... it wouldn't challenge the "strong companies", just offer another "tier" of function and access to hobbyists who may want to have some level of facial mocap beyond the visemes. I've tried the demo with DAZ... it's far from polished and needs cleanup, but is still far quicker than animating by hand. I like the idea of capturing two actors (or more) at the same time - even if the capture is crude, the timing between their performances is far better than doing them individually.

By charly Rama - 5 Years Ago

argus1000 (8/17/2018)

Kelleytoons (8/17/2018)

[quote]

And now it makes sense why Faceshift is so good -- and it really is, far superior to Faceware. .

I wish I'd see a proof of that. So far, of all the tests that have been made by you and Charly Rama, I didn't see any conclusive evidence of Faceshift superiority.

I understand you Argus. But for me, and it's just and stay my sensation and my opinion, using faceshift made me to leave faceware definitely. Lips movements are really more accurate without any corrections post mocap. After all; You're right, if you already spent money buying faceware, if you don't see the difference, there's no reason to migrate to faceshift, I understand. I've done because I see a difference

By sonic7 - 5 Years Ago

@charly >>> " .... You're right, if you already spent money buying faceware, if you don't see the difference, there's no reason to migrate to faceshift, .... " <<<
Good point - whether we're 'pro' or 'hobbyist' - we all buy what we feel is right for our needs at the time we invest. Unless there's compelling reason to change, we go with what we've got and make the most of it.

@Mark ... Offering another 'tier' as you say (something like Brekel) makes a lot of sense. It would mean more sales for Reallusion. There's no doubt a large chunk of iClone users who simply won't purchase 'Motion Live' (reasonably priced as it is), simply because of the high price of 'body' and 'face' plugi-ns. It's simply beyond the hobbyist budget and so they don't even get to first base. The 'serious' among them will then look for alternative ways and work-a-rounds to achieve their results...

But I'll be totally honest here .... While I'm getting workable results with Brekel's *Pro Body* software (yes, with 'some' cleanup), I haven't found the *Pro Face* (using the trial version) to be as responsive. It *could* be me - though I've tried altering the settings - but to date, my tests show a very 'under-expressive' face unfortunately. If anyone has some advice on how to get good results out of Brekel's Pro Face (version 2), I'd really like to know. Smile

By animagic - 5 Years Ago

I can understand RL's hesitation to add support for certain cheaper Mocap solutions, because in that case a lot depends on how much a user is willing to invest in setting up the system and cleaning up the results. After the experience with Kinect, I think they are looking for something more reliable.

Quality Mocap is expensive, although it is much cheaper now then it used to be.

About Faceware: I have found that by simply adding a LED light strip on top of my monitor, I get much better lighting and therefor capturing results. So setup is really crucial for any Mocap system.

By sonic7 - 5 Years Ago

@animagic "..... I can understand RL's hesitation to add support for certain cheaper Mocap solutions, because in that case a lot depends on how much a user is willing to invest in setting up the system and cleaning up the results. After the experience with Kinect, I think they are looking for something more reliable.... "

Yeah - very valid point here too ani. It must be difficult for Reallusion - Low end solutions attract more users, but at the same time the *risk* of unreliability is real. Tough call .... I think apple should hand out a *free iphone X* to all current iClone members ... Hehe

By Rampa - 5 Years Ago

There is rumored to be a iPad with a depth camera released soon, maybe even next month. Apparently more iPhone models will also be getting the depth camera.

By sonic7 - 5 Years Ago

Rampa >>> "....There is rumored to be a iPad with a depth camera released soon, maybe even next month. Apparently more iPhone models will also be getting the depth camera.... " <<<
Really! ..... more (*lower priced*) iphones hopefully! ..... and if they're useable within Motion Live - bam - more players!
I'm now seeing how smart this move is by Reallusion - they're fast becoming the "Hub" to everything .....

By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago

Rampa (8/18/2018)

There is rumored to be a iPad with a depth camera released soon, maybe even next month. Apparently more iPhone models will also be getting the depth camera.

I would be SO on that like ugly on ape (my current iPad is about three years old, the "Airpad" refresh of the original, but I've held off buying another for quite some time now even though I use my iPad at least an hour every single day). IF it worked with the Live plugin (that would give me two capture sources -- plus the Faceware! Maybe I could do three people at the same time!).

I'll keep an eye out for it -- yeah, I know this stuff isn't for everyone but as Ani (and others) have said, quality mocap is expensive (remember my "Good, fast, cheap" pick any two paradigm?). And it all boils down to how you value things. You can achieve the same or even better results hand animating almost anything (including body mocap) but the tradeoff there is time, which at my age is more precious than anything else I have (FAR more precious than money). I'm even willing to accept less than stellar results as long as I can tell my story quickly (again, you make compromises based on your resources).

By sonic7 - 5 Years Ago

@Mike >>>> ".... the tradeoff there is time, which at my age is more precious than anything else I have (FAR more precious than money). I'm even willing to accept less than stellar results as long as I can tell my story quickly (again, you make compromises based on your resources). .... " <<<<
Very, very true ......

By joel.lovell - 5 Years Ago

Looks like on ebay you can pick up an Iphone X in good working order 'with a bad esn' for under $400. Some with a cracked screen for half that. Since I would buy it solely for wifi use for live face, I am tempted to get this, but still between that cost and the plug-in it's a a hefty purchase.

I'm still not sure about the curve editor plug-in. I *think* I need that but..

By argus1000 - 5 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (8/18/2018)

You can achieve the same or even better results hand animating almost anything (including body mocap)

I have a hard (very hard) time believing that. I believe you can do animation well (with squash and stretch, anticipation, etc), but as far as precisely replicating the natural movements of the body and face, that's impossible, no matter how much time you put into it. The timing and coordination will always be a little bit off.

By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago

Obviously you've never seen a Disney film.

(Those artists studied human movement for many, many years -- hand animation can ALWAYS do anything. Assuming you have talent. And time, of course).

By argus1000 - 5 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (8/30/2018)

Obviously you've never seen a Disney film.

(Those artists studied human movement for many, many years -- hand animation can ALWAYS do anything. Assuming you have talent. And time, of course).

Obviously, you didn't read my post. I have seen as many Disney films as you have. What they do is ANIMATION. Principles of animation: anticipation, follow-through, exageration, etc... There's NOTHING natural about animation. What the people who invest millions of dollars into games do, or movies like "Avatar", is not animation, that's MOTION CAPTURE. That's natural. That's realistic. Their equipment is expensive. If they could do it by hand, they would, just to save the money on equipment and actors. If you believe that you can replace motion capture, I would like you to show me an example of a natural animation done by hand.

By Kelleytoons - 5 Years Ago

Obviously you haven't seen a Disney film (at least the classics). The animation in Snow White, for example, is as realistic as it comes, FAR better than any mocap. Indeed, efforts to do tracing over live motion wasn't nearly as good.

Sorry -- you and I just don't see eye to eye.

By argus1000 - 5 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (8/30/2018)

Yep. We don't see eye to eye, because if the Snow white animation is " FAR better than any mocap", THEN it's art. It's not realistic. It's not the kind of animation people would want to see in a game or a movie.

I'm still waiting for the realistic example