Perception Neuron Pro Test footage and mini review

Perception Neuron Pro Test footage and mini review

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https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic375271.aspx

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By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

A few weeks back I was asking on the forum if anyone had used an Xsens mocap suit with Iclone. After some research the software licensing cost was too high (though the suit price itself was good).
A few days later I was told about the Perception Neuron Pro. I liked how it looked and it was cheaper than the cheapest Xsens.
I've had it for almost a month now.
I threw together a bit of a lazy compilation of the first 2 days of tests, and then I used it to shoot a scene .

I'm really happy with the results and it's definitely speeding up production of my movie. I didn't have the PN 1 or 2 so I can't compare it to that but things have been a lot better, faster, and easier than with Ipisoft, which is what I was going to use until I realised my second computer was too old and just couldn't record from two 360 kinects at the same time without dropping frames. I can't really think of any way the ipi software wins out, except that it's cheaper which wasn't a win for me since it couldn't do the job. I couldn't do fight scenes with it, which was my biggest concern. In the test I did a few punches to test out if it'd be fast enough to capture that and it was good, though I wont be recording a fight scene for a few weeks atleast.

The scene footage is WIP and the mocap has been cleaned though not always completely.
Cleanup has been fairly easy. I don't use the Iclone plugin since the computer I capture on is too old for Iclone 6 or 7. All clips were exported from Axis Neuron Pro and imported to Iclone via bvh.

Pros
-Wireless so range of movement is not an issue unless you need to go a stupid distance.
-Quick to set up, put on, or put away. No messing with a router, the suit has a dedicated radio transmitter. Neurons turn 90 degress to put on and take off from straps.
-Easy to maintain. comes with huge antimag travel case, all sensors calibrate at the same time.
-Good quality capture for this tech, though I don't have other IMU suits to directly compare to.
-Computer specs needed to run capture software are really low (my second computer is quite old), especially in comparison to Ipisoft, which I can barely use with one 360 Kinect now.
-Company replied to my email quickly when I had a question.

Possible cons
-Price. It's not for poor people, though there's the cheaper 2.0 suit.
-It's wireless (a pro) but that means it runs on batteries. If you need to record for many hours at a time you'll need to stop and recharge the neurons. I've never needed to do that so far though.
-It's not completely immune to magnetic interference. In the video there's a point where I sat down close to my fridge (for testing purposes) and it does indeed lose it's awesomeness a bit, though this was to be expected.
-If you need fingers there isn't a capture solution with this suit yet. I hate finger cleanup so wasn't a problem for me as I use hand gestures at all times.

By Lamias - 8 Years Ago

Thanks for this review! In a couple of months I will purchase a PN suit as well, so this review is really helpful.

Could you please elaborate on two parts?
1) How did you clean up the motions? Did you only use the cleanup tool inside the Axis software?
2) I didn't quite understand what happened with finger motions. Could you please explain?

Thanks again!!

By animagic - 8 Years Ago

Thanks for the test, Dr. Nemesis.

@Lamias: I believe there are separate gloves for finger motions with additional neurons for PN 1 and 2.

I wonder if that will be added to PN Pro, because I find that a bit of a drawback. Also, do we know if Pro works with the iClone plugin?

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

Lamias (8/6/2018)

Np.
As for your questions, the motions can be generally smoothed within Axis Neuron but that won’t fix any big wobbles or pops, which will occasionally happen. For that the f curve editor in Iclone is essential. Selectively reducing the number of keys works great.

Finger motions - As animagic said the suite doesn’t have gloves so won’t capture those. A solution to that will be coming, supposedly later in the year but that’d be an additional purchase.

Animagic I can’t answer your last question for sure since I won’t get the plugin but there’s a vid on YouTube of the PN guys using a Pro and 2.0 suit in Iclone at the same time.

By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago

do we know if Pro works with the iClone plugin?

No experience here either but considering iClone is only receiving a stream of data from Axis software I can't imagine how that would look any different than the other flavours of Neuron hardware - that is, the Axis software is what iClone is connected to not the sensors themselves.

By Lamias - 8 Years Ago

Thanks for replying!!

So, you are saying that the cleanup inside the Axis software + the curve editor optimizer yield good results when used together right? Of course I understand that there is an occasional wobble, or a big motion hiccup here and there, but generally these two options are a good strategy. Right?

Also, what is the difference between PN PRO and PN 2.0 that was released a few months ago? I am a bit confused.

By kungphu - 8 Years Ago

Dr. N thanks for this! Was the video of the footage in Axis Neuron Pro raw and what we saw in iclone the cleaned motion? This looks great aside from that pesky foot. I’ve seriously been looking at this solution. If the video in axis Pro is raw, that’s a bit better than what I get with my PN suit.

For the other questions:
As Ani pointed out the PN Pro doesn’t have fingers, it’s similar to the Xsens with just hand movement. I contacted Noitom about this and they mentioned that they are supposed to have a finger solution “soon.”

I specifically asked Noitom if the pro suit would work with the iclone plugin. Their answer was yes. As Illisionlab mentioned, it’s streaming from Axis Pro so I’m theory, it “should” work.

The biggest difference between PN 2.0 and PN Pro is $2,500! :) The PN 2.0 is their second generation suit based on the original PN system. It’s a bunch of small Neuronsyou put into straps that you put on your body. It’s gen2 of their first PN suit and is supposed to give better performance but it is still sensitive to magnetic fields. If a neuron is compromised you have to remove it and calibrate it one by one. It’s a PITA for me to do so with my suit. If you want to use it wirelessly, you need a usb battery pack and a wireless router. Plus you have to set up the router with your computer etc etc. The PN 2.0 comes with optional gloves for finger/hand animation. It’s $2500 for the 32 neuron suit which covers body and hands. the new suit (Pro) is their higher end suit. Like Xsens it doesn’t offer fingers. The motion is supposed to be smoother. It comes out of the box with wireless capability. The neurons are really big and easy to put in. Plus the case is magnetically shielded. If you want to calibrate, you just rotate the case and all neurons are calibrated at the same time. The Neurons are resistant to magnetic fields but like Dr. N mentioned they can still go wobbly on ya if close to appliances. The cost is $4500, but it’s being offered at $4000 as an early bird price.

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

Lamaist, yes, the two together are a good combo and yes most but not all of it had been cleanup up in the Iclone footage.

Kungphu, np! Yes the Axis Neuron footage was raw. The cleanup that axis Neuron does wouldn’t really be noticeable from that camera distance. It’s definitely useful when the camera is gonna be a medium or closeup though.

As for the difference between the 2.0 and pro? It fundamentally comes down to speed. I mocap for 1 day every week now and will be doing that for the next few months. It was essential that I could put the suit on and use it fast, take it off and get to work on the clips. As Kungphu explained the 2.0 suit isn’t that quick to work with unless you leave the neurons on the suit and I wasn’t about to be that careless with something this important.

Secondly, and this is the bigger deal, the Pro is magnetically shielded which meant it was likely to produce smoother results. I’m making a 70 minute film. Money I could’ve saved buying a 2.0 would’ve been wasted several times over when spending longer on the cleanup. Professionals in our field can easily make $300-$500 a day. It isn’t really worth saving a couple thousand dollars and then having to waste extra time on cleanup.
If this is a hobby, that math maybe doesn’t add up, I dunno.

As for the feet getting wonky I’m starting to think this is a result of it not knowing my measurements. I’m now seeing It screwed up because I sat down, less because I was next to the fridge. I need to get my body measurements in and see if this makes an improvement (I believe it’ll be significant).

By sonic7 - 8 Years Ago

@Dr. Nemesis .... Nice of you taking time to post these tests! Even for those of us not getting into this atm - it's still great to see what results can be achieved ... so thnx :) btw, the red 'spheres' that appear on the ankles when each foot contacts the floor - are they some sort of 'clamping' feature to prevent feet slipping? are they produced within the Axis software?

By Lamias - 8 Years Ago

These replies are very helpful guys, thank you for taking the time to post!

I have a dilemma: I am a hobbyist, so 4.000 dollars is a big amount to spend for a hobby. However, my heart tells me to buy the Pro suit because making movies was my dream since I was a little child, and the one thing I can't stand in IClone are jittery motions. They destroy the realism and the immersion immediately in my opinion.

You guys said that PRO produces smoother results, right? That's the bigger deal for me, which tips the balance over to PRO. I would hate to have spent 2000 dollars and find out that the 2.0 suit produces jittery results that could have been achieved with ipi soft, and would need much cleaning to be aesthetically pleasing.

Also, could an owner of the original PN suit (or 2.0) please inform us how long does it take to put on the suit, calibrate it and be ready for mocap?

Thanks again for informing us!!

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

While I haven't had it long, perhaps that's an advantage in talking about version 2.0 of the original suit.

First of all -- I have the magnetic shielded case (which I think is a must -- cost about $200 more, so that total cost was about $1700 for the suit, including finger gloves which I think are VITALLY important). Haven't had any issues with magnetism, but I also use a USB remote keyboard (you need to be careful if, for example, you use a laptop because you can't get the gloves close to the keyboard in that case -- not a huge problem to deal with but one I don't have to. The wireless mouse is no issue at all and according to the PN folks, neither is my wireless keyboard).

Second -- first time I put on the suit it was like the first time I used a condom -- seemed like a HUGE amount of trouble but I was motivated for the end results so it seemed worth it (and just like that it helps if your partner helps :>). About 30 minutes and I though "Yipes, I'll only do this occasionally (we're talking about the suit now, not the other thing :>). But practice makes perfect, and it also helped tremendously for me to put each piece in a marked plastic bag (they give you bags for this but plastic ziplocked slider bags are MUCH easier). I can now get it on in five minutes including software setup time, so no biggie.

Feet are smooth with the smoothing feature enabled inside of the PN capture software (I would never use LIVE for this purpose -- not only do I save $500, but the capture there is not as good according to Mark). It's at least as smooth as any other capture I've used (and I've used them all). I can post samples if you want to see, but there are a LOT of them out there. I also bought Web Animate (a touch over $100 right now) to help with cleanup but so far haven't needed it (and I'm pretty critical of such things, even for very long captures).

I can understand the Doctor's reasoning about money making -- a professional doesn't think in terms of costs so much in ROI -- but I don't think even a pro would have trouble with this suit (and in any case, if they have the money, it would be worth it to have it if nothing more than the fingers, which take an ENORMOUS amount of time to do otherwise, IMHO, even adding the Leap controller in, which I also have). Plus you can never have enough capture suits -- the PN software can work with at least two or three at a time, so interactions between actors could be captured as well. If in another year or two I have the money, I may well get the suit without the fingers just for fun (I've spend a LOT of money this year, including $4k for my new computer with the two cards, Titan and 1080, both of which have 12gb of memory).

However, I will say this -- I'm completely sold on the PN, no matter which version. I think they do it right, and they are a pretty responsive company (I had trouble with one piece of the suit and they sent me a replacement within a day -- it helps I live in Florida and they are based in Miami, but that's still pretty fast. As it turns out, while they were sending it I figured out how to fix it so now I have two :>).

By Lamias - 8 Years Ago

Kelley thank you for the helpful input!

So you are saying that 2.0 produces good results with the help of the Axis smoothing tools. I was wondering if you could post an example or two with the results you get from your suit.

It puzzled me when you said there are a lot of sample clips out there, because I have been searching like a maniac and found next to zero results concerning iClone.

If you have the time and it's not too much trouble, any sample mocaped clip would be an immense help for me.

Thanks again!

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (8/9/2018)

if they have the money, it would be worth it to have it if nothing more than the fingers, which take an ENORMOUS amount of time to do otherwise....

This might be the real deciding factor for some. I refuse to do cleanup on fingers so was never gonna buy the gloved version of PN. However rewatch the video and you will see that the Iclone clips have finger movement. Especially the last shot which isn’t even cleaned yet. Gestures take seconds to use.

If for you, gestures take an enormous amount of time or you need very intricate finger movements like playing a piano or something, you’ll probably want gloves.

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Doc, I think it boils down to your actors. Because mine (well, my wife and I) are classically trained, we use expressiveness with the hands that absolutely cannot be boiled down to a "gesture" added afterwards. Actors (again, folks who know what they are doing) use their hands at least as much as they use their faces, because that's a key to any performance.

But a person who isn't an actor? They might not ever use their hands in such a manner and, yes, it would be overkill to even worry about it. But there hasn't been any finger cleanup for me during my captures so far, so it's no trouble (perhaps those who don't have the magnetic case and who get the fingers magnetized have more issues).

By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago

This is really cool to read, congratulations to you guys with a setup in place that works well. Thank you DrN for providing a great review.
I might go this route too one day, but might wait for successive iterations.
The hands can be handled by Leap, even if it doesn't have gloves.

In all I have been very impressed with these type videos. Great job!

By kungphu - 8 Years Ago

As KT pointed out, the magnetically shielded case is a must. Without it, you have to take out each of the 32 neurons after mocap and store them in small containers. Also when you want to use the suit, same thing. Gotta take all 32 neurons out of the containers and put them in the straps. Then put the straps on. Takes a long time. But if you get the antimag case, just leave the neurons in the straps when ur done. No probs.

KT’s description is better than anything I can say about first time putting on the suit. In videos online the PN fills out it in in no time. My first time I was so lost and had no idea what I was doing. Now... it’s minutes and I get it on and I’m mocaping. My gripe with the suit is the magnetic issues. Depending on your room, I’ll see a leg turn around and make crazy motions or a shoulder. So you’ll have to recalibrate. Also some of the motion isn’t all that fluid. It’s smooth but not fluid.

The vid in my signature was a 48hr film fest vid. Total time for mocap was less than 2hrs. I started at 2:30am and was done around d 4:10am IIRC. There’s zero cleanup on the mocap. There’s a character or two that has keyframed and stock anitmatuin clips that I split because I forgot to save the mocap but 90% if the film is raw mocap from the suit through the PN plugin (not motion live). You can see how stiff some of the movements are. The hands and fingers are a treat. But fingers are usually the first to mess up since you’re using them to control a mouse near a computer. You can see some weird finger shapes from everyone in the film. Again I didn’t clean up or redo any of the hand animation. Didn’t have any time. So what I got was what I got. There’s a lot of rocker “hook em horns” signed fingers. That wasn’t intentional.

For me the biggest drawback is the sensitivity to magnetism. But the speed and “close enough” animation is enough to make me stick with it. Especially after KT tried out the other mocap system based on VR hardware. I had high hopes for it! I was about to take the plunge into Xsens but those software costs after the suit are a hard pill to swallow. Dr. N may be making Noitom some money! Oh and I can vouch for good support. I’ve had several issues and they were always answered within a day or two.

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

TonyDPrime (8/9/2018)

Thank you DrN for providing a great review.

NP, was fun.
Kungphu, have you done anything else with your suit since then?

Still no new pro videos on Youtube that I've seen. I might make this vid public.

By Lamias - 8 Years Ago

Guys, I know that you are all preoccupied with your projects and I don't want to press anybody, but you should know that every tiny little video that you decide to post here is more helpful than you would think.

I hope you know that we appreciate your informing us, and I personally hope to see more videos of either 2.0 or Pro, as I am making up my mind on what to purchase.

Thank you very much!

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

Some more Pro footage in another WIP scene.
This is mostly to show hand animation done with poses (gestures). The hands took about 2 mins to do.

I'm also really happy with the mocap for this line.

By Lamias - 8 Years Ago

Very, very nice mocap. And nice flowing finger action too.

May I ask how did you capture the facial expressions? Do you have faceware or did you use Face Puppet?

And also, lip synching was done in the traditional way, or via faceware?

Thank you Dr. Nemesis, you are helping me more than you know. :)

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

Lamias (8/27/2018)

Thanks Lamias.
I animate the faces with facekey and do lip sync the traditional way. I can't get Faceware to give me a good result unfortunately, and even if I could, you can't refine the captured lipsync for Daz characters (I don't think).

By sonic7 - 8 Years Ago

Dr. Nemesis >>> "... I animate the faces with facekey and do lip sync the traditional way... <<<
When you say 'traditional way' - do you mean you form mouth shapes manually every couple/few frames?

By Walvince - 8 Years Ago

Dr. Nemesis (8/27/2018)

Some more Pro footage in another WIP scene.
This is mostly to show hand animation done with poses (gestures). The hands took about 2 mins to do.

I'm also really happy with the mocap for this line.

Wow excellent animation, looks really pro !

By kungphu - 8 Years Ago

Dr. N great wrk as usual! Fascinating to see others workflow. Super great quality btw... I missed a few weeks ago when you asked if I had any other mocap vids. On my YouTube channel there is a movie legend of shady acres. I used the PN (1st gen) on that one as well. Same deal with the 48hrs and a couple hours of mocap with zero cleanup. There are some characters that are keyframed and some stock animation was spoiled and chopped up. But it’s mostly PN. Your videos are reallly steering me towards Pro btw!

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

Thanks again, everyone.
Sonic, yes, that way.

Kungphu, why no new movies in so long?

By sonic7 - 8 Years Ago

>>> "When you say 'traditional way' - do you mean you form mouth shapes manually every couple/few frames?"
>>> "Sonic, yes, that way."

Yeah - it shows, that "Look-Fabien" shot has very nice lip movement ... - seems to me it's worth the effort. I can see myself doing the same - though I *might* load in a video of the speech to serve as a 'visual reference'... --- Brilliant work Dr Nemesis! :)

By kungphu - 8 Years Ago

Hey Dr. N, I have one but I can’t release it yet till the festival clears. I’ll spoil any drama, for the first time we got shut out of all awards. We didn’t finish in time :( it was mor like a 49.5 hr film festival. Had a ton of problems rendering a particular scene and it derailed the project. Lesson learned I shoulda just screen captured the live iclone footage and put that in the film as a placeholder and finished at least a rough edit. I lost about 3-4 hours with one scene and a pesky set. I’ll post the vid when we’re allowed to publicly show the films from the film festival. I missed a festival last week due to working offshore as well. I was super bummed.

By Lamias - 8 Years Ago

It's good that you have so many festivals in your country.

In mine we have almost nonexistent events to showcase our creations. :(

By kungphu - 8 Years Ago

Lamias,
That sucks for the lack of better words. Entering these festivals actually gets me off my @rse and into iclone so I won’t totally embarrass myself. Without them I’d probably never have made a full video. I work better with a deadline. It kinda forces me to do the work instead of just thinking about it. You can always give yourself a deadline and make a film, then find an international film festival to submit to. Might help to get the creative juices flowing?

By Lamias - 8 Years Ago

Yes, it kinda sucks.

I am the opposite of you my friend. I don't work well with personal deadlines at all (except work deadlines, where I don't have a choice but to comply:P)

But the good thing is that I am saving money to buy a PN suit (2.0 or PRO, not sure yet), and when I do, I will showcase what I make to every place I find.

International film festivals are a good idea, and I will look into it!!

By manu.n02 - 8 Years Ago

@Dr. Nemesis

I'd like to know if the Perception Neuron Pro could work well to capture fast movement ? I'm looking for a relatively cheap solution to capture tennis strikes, which requires both precision (around +/-5cm or 2 inches) and speed.

Do you think the Perception Neuron Pro could do the job ?

Also did you set your body measurements and did it help with the strange foot orientation ?

Thanks in advance for your help ! :-)

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

I think you'd be much better off with the original, because to capture precise strokes you'll need finger movements as well, which can't be captured with the Pro (and this IS my area of expertise -- not only do I have the original PN, but tennis is my second passion, and I still play 10 hours a week at my advanced age).

While the Pro can capture hand rotation and wrist pronation, it won't get grip changes and definitely can't handle those of us who use two hands on one wing or the other (or both). I undercut the ball with my two-handed grip and depending on how I position those fingers I can get more or less spin -- would that be captured without the fingers? It's *possible* (you do get a "hand" sensor that fits on the back).

I might try a capture both ways, both with and without the finger sensors to see if it can see what my racket is doing. I've often thought that one of these days I would take it out on the court but it's still WAY too hot here in Florida for this (although I do play indoors a couple of times a week -- my time there is limited and I'd rather not spend it doing capture <g>).

In a month or two when it IS cool enough I'll get on and see what I can see -- if nothing more I'd love to analyze my strokes very precisely.

By charly Rama - 8 Years Ago

thank you guys for all those informations, now, I have to work hard if I plan to buy it, I don't know if madame ' ll agree :)

Mike, you killed me when you told the first time for you with PN was like a condum, I just couldn' stop laughing :D :D :D

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

manu.n02 (11/2/2018)

Hi Manu. I do think the PN Pro could capture tennis moves. I don't know what the exact precision margins are though.
I'd go against Kelly's recommendation if you can afford it. As I've used the suit more and more, I've become aware of how important a good compass calibration is with this tech, ESPECIALLY when you want precision.
With the pro you can calibrate ALL sensors in the amount of time it'd take you to calibrate just one sensor on the 1.0 or 2.0.
This is something most people just never talk about but it is of prime importance. If you want accuracy, semi regular compass calibrations are needed. This is just a fact.
On top of that a friend told me the jumping I did in my test wouldn't look as good on the previous versions so it depends how much work you're prepared to add after the shoot.

His recommendation for finger capture is also misguided IMO. Their inclusion in the capture lowers the possible frame rate you can export at. Not a big issue for average shoots but for a fast action, or stunt shoot, this is more relevant. Personally, if I were to buy the 2.0 I'd save some money and skip the fingers.

I didn't do measurements in the end cause I lost the PDF that shows how to do it and simple corrections in Iclone have allowed me to forgo it. However I WILL be taking the measurements before I start any action scene shoots as they'll be more important there.

Edit: Do bear in mind that they seem to have been sold out for a while on their site so you might not have much choice.

By manu.n02 - 8 Years Ago

@Kelleytoons,
thanks for the tip !
Although for my case, a tennis game, fingers won't be much noticeable, so it's not too much of an issue.
Accurate hand placement however could be, as it'd be nice to get western/eastern grip correctly detected (although it should relatively easy to fix that afterwards).
But I won't buy any suit before 6 months or maybe a year, so I can wait for the additional VR glove of the Pro version, if necessary.

If you record your strikes, it'd be really great if you could post a video of the result, especially if you do serve and/or hit the ball with high-speed (eg: 75+ mph)

@Dr. Nemesis,
thanks for your answer !
Money is an issue for me, but not as much as time, so if the Pro version can save me some, it'd be ok.

And I'm not in a hurry to buy ; I'm currently weighting my options, so I can wait them to refill their stock... :)

At 1st, I planned to buy the 2.0 version, to do prop anims, and hopefully sidestep & running animations, but if I could do strike anims with a better but still affordable suit, it'd be really great !

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

If that's your timetable for sure I'd look at the Rokoko suit -- as a tennis player, it would be a LOT nicer to wear and should have the same advantages as the PN Pro (at a cheaper price). I'm looking seriously at it as my second suit.

(But no, sadly, at my age if I could hit the ball that hard I'd be a 4.5 instead of a 4.0).

By manu.n02 - 8 Years Ago

@Kelleytoons,
I didn't know that suit ! It looks pretty neat, although at this point I'm not sure whose strikes I'm going to capture, so maybe the size could be an issue, but L size might be a safe enough choice.
I watched the demo video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_9TZHGswVA and I noticed the feet were a bit funky, at best, like on this screenshot :

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/412d2526-fc56-4b42-9446-e823.jpg

Is it the kind of precision I can expect from the Neuron Pro as well ?

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

You should talk to those people.

I have seen ALL kinds of mocap from all kinds of places, and total accuracy isn't completely possible (which is why, with even the best mocap, some cleanup is always necessary). For those who require absolutely precision there are very $$$ solutions out there (usually in the realm of Hollywood and usually using markers and multiple camera locations).

By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago

Mocap "suits" like Perception Neuron and others are not the best option for accuracy or fast action. Like KT mentioned, multi 'high speed' camera systems are what you'd need if you're leaning toward 'scientific' motions. The 'sensors' on your body are prone to moving with flexing muscles, ground impact and generally not accurately placed and/or 'fixed' on your person - so, the software makes a 'best guess' calculation... remember, the sensors have no idea where they are in space, only their relative position to each other - and then calculated on a "one size fits all" algorithm based on height/sex. Instead of investing in a suit, it may be better to hire a 3D motion capture studio for half a day - or, better still, a company that has a 'location' capable system... set up in a school gym for instance.

By stuckon3d - 8 Years Ago

thank you DR Nemesis for your observations. I would like to contribute to this thread as well since I recently got one.
After using PN pro for almost a month, the biggest issue i found is drifting. the accuracy is really excellent overall, with very little clean up to do. However you can never land back to the original position from which you started. IF this is critical for you then this is not the right tool for you. But if precise position of character placement is not critical (plus or minus half meter) then this thing is fantastic, two or three takes and im done. Unfortunately all the inertia base systems will have drifting problems. It's the nature of the beast. Maybe they should couple it with a vive tracker, like one on your head to keep accurate position. :P
Anyhow, here is a test using PN pro, faceware and a second pass with live face for facial muscles, and leap motion for hands. Total hours of work for 26 seconds of animation, including capture and clean up was about 6 hours for this kind of quality. Hope this info helps people out there thinking about getting it.

By argus1000 - 8 Years Ago

Stuckon3d,

I'd pay good money for a "the making of" tutorial on how you used the leap motion hand controller for this clip.

By stuckon3d - 8 Years Ago

argus1000 (11/4/2018)

Stuckon3d,

I'd pay good money for a "the making of" tutorial on how you used the leap motion hand controller for this clip.

oddly enough that was the fastest part of the mocap since all i had to do was capture the fingers, i already had the hands capture by PN Pro. So it was just one take, I just mimic the motion in front of me without turning my wrist too much and that is what i've got on the first take. I was super happy with it. :)

By charly Rama - 8 Years Ago

I confirm, Leap motion is not expensive, and I'm really satisfied of my hand's animations. Just to know, you have to start with hands animation because for me, if I finish with leap motion, it makes foot sliding for the body animation (I don't have neuron, I planed to buy it but after watching this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDXXFnoDJvU&t=204s I prefer turning to rokoko)

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

If you're just using the Leap motion to add fingers it won't affect any of the rest of the body (but you have to do it right).

By charly Rama - 8 Years Ago

Iknow Mike, I have verified all things but it does like it for my machine, so I found the solution for me, and it's ok now

By argus1000 - 8 Years Ago

charly Rama (11/4/2018)

The link you mention here, where it says Perception Neuron doesn't answer its email, is almost two years old. I've heard different stories from other users, BTW. Besides, they have an upgraded version 2 out now, plus the Pro version.

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Yeah, I can confirm that the folks selling PN are very responsive. They even setup a Facetime for me for an hour when I had an issue (and then next day expressed a part that wasn't working, for free). However, I also think the Rokoko folks are very good at getting back to you -- the guy I emailed emailed me not only the very next day but also emailed me a week or so later on his own.

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

Can confirm Noitim’s responsiveness by email. They replaced a faulty part for me immediately and are happy to skype call you if they can’t fix your problem over email.
Strangely their forum is a ghost town of unaddressed questions and concerns.

By Lamias - 8 Years Ago

@ Stuckon3d

Thank you for these tests, they really helped me. Could I ask what tool did you use for cleaning up the motion?

Also, could you (or any Pro user) elaborate a bit on the drifting part? I didn't quite understand what you meant with it.

Thanks for taking the time to post your opinions.

By drewhshep - 8 Years Ago

I'm also interested in buying the PN. Does anyone know what the maximum animation length would be?
I'm working on a VR project which basically requires users to follow along with the guide for about 10-20 minutes. Would this be feasible with the Neuron?

Thanks to everyone who's given their thoughts in this thread, really been helpful!

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

I would break the session up into smaller lengths and stitch them together in Iclone. I've never done a shot that long but Iclone would probably choke trying to load a file that big. Not to mention you'll get some big drift over that long. And then sampling the keys on it... urgh.
Personally I don't let a take go longer than 2 minutes.

By ken_1171 - 8 Years Ago

Any feedback on dying Neuron sensors? The guy from the video posted here claims the sensors don't last much, which worries me since it isn't exactly cheap. I saw another video on YouTube where the guy also claims the sensors don't last much, like some will die in about a year or less. I would like to hear from other PN suit owners about this.

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

If they die in less than a year they will get replaced for free. So I don't know how he could complain about that. And while they aren't exactly "cheap" they aren't too bad to buy new ones (because I also have the gloves and you get an "extra" for an accessory I have five or six "extras" for the main body -- I ain't worried).

I also think it helps to have the magnetic case, regardless of which model you get (Pro or not). That insulates things. But, honestly, no piece of hardware is perfect and if you go by the web on Amazon you'd never buy a single thing (just look at reviews on Amazon for ANYTHING -- people swear up and down that this or that thing just is a piece of garbage. Honestly, everyone on the web thinks they are experts on everything, so it's a bit silly).

And I've done very long captures -- I never capture less than an hour at a time with no drift whatsoever. So everyone's mileage will vary (I can walk ALL around my home and yard for 20-30 minutes, come right back to the keyboard to stop capture, and it's EXACTLY matched up to where I started).

By mtakerkart - 8 Years Ago

I Have mine since 2015 , I backed their Kicstarter project. Only 2 of them was wrong but at start. They replaced them for free.
I bought a second one 2 years ago and no problem with it.

By drewhshep - 8 Years Ago

20-30 minute capture, that’s great to hear. Next thing i’ll need to figure out is a simultaneous facial capture method..

Couple questions. Do you have the PN 2.0 or the Pro? And do you use IClone or another software? I’m running on a MacBook Pro which can’t run IClone.

By ken_1171 - 8 Years Ago

Thank you guys for the feedback! Over here, imports are not officially forbidden, but they are "discouraged" by a nifty 160% import tax, where the post office has an embedded customs office to enforce it. That is to say, if you buy something from abroad for yourself, you also have to buy another one for the government. This is claimed to protect the national industry, even if it doesn't manufacture a single piece of hardware. That also explains how we ended up with the most expensive Apple iPad in the world. So when I say it isn't cheap, I mean it in that context. Imports have basically been forbidden over here since 1934, with special sections of the law specifically forbidding buying computer parts and electronics.

So even if I managed to get a PN suit by some kind of stunt, getting support and replacement parts are out of the question. In the reality I live, either the sensors work, or I am on my own. I know it doesn't help to explain these things, but it might help those who live in a free country to better appreciate what they have. :)

By drewhshep - 8 Years Ago

@kelleytoons That's great if I can record 20-30 minute sequences. Do you have the PN 2.0 or the Pro? Also I'm running on a Macbook Pro, so I can't run IClone. Do you know of another recording software that could handle long recordings?

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Well, there is certainly something to be said for any country wanting to encourage buying from folks who live there as opposed to importing things, particularly when the competitive advantage from overseas is unfair (here in the U.S. we have put ourselves at an unfair disadvantage by actively making other countries imports cheaper even when they do not reciprocate and make it impossible for folks like yourself to buy our stuff). So I'm not against tariffs -- only an unfair application of them (so hopefully the things you make in your own country aren't brought in to America without similar restrictions).

Obviously, though, if something isn't manufactured there at all it puts you at an extreme disadvantage. An enterprising person might take that situation and be able to build some industry from it (like you making your own suits and selling them there). So you never know what possibilities there are in life.

By ken_1171 - 8 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (11/11/2018)

Obviously, though, if something isn't manufactured there at all it puts you at an extreme disadvantage. An enterprising person might take that situation and be able to build some industry from it (like you making your own suits and selling them there). So you never know what possibilities there are in life.

Many of the IT companies I have worked for over here bought their business equipment from the black market, since the local industry makes no hardware at all. This is how most of the medium to small businesses have been collapsing here in the last 30 years. It's not just a matter of not being able to afford the import taxes, but also surviving the effects of "progressive tax". The more money you make in your business, the more taxes you pay. This has discouraged the industry from growing, because no matter how much you work, your profits won't increase. If you work too much, you may end up loosing money. Nonetheless, this is the "paradise" Carl Marx has dreamed about, and many have spent fortunes to achieve it over decades of hard work. It didn't happen by chance, and it has been spreading all over Europe. More recently, Venezuela has also fallen to it, but the media won't cover it. If people don't see it, then it's not happening, right?

Like it says in the bible, the devil's greatest achievement was to make everybody believe he doesn't exist. When I look at Asia, Europe, Central and South Americas, this has never been so true. Danger lurks all around us, and I am pretty aware of what possibilities it can bring to our lives, because over here it's reality. For everybody else, they are free to believe it has ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall. It's also the everyday reality in China, where these wonderful PN suits come from. How ironic is that? :)

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Too bad the idiot libs over here in our country couldn't see this, my friend. They all think socialism is the way to go (despite what's happened in other countries -- they always think "well, WE'LL do it right!". Yeah, sure).

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

Urgh. I started the thread to talk about the Perception Neuron, please don’t tangent this off into KT’s political opinion corner.

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

drewhshep (11/11/2018)

I have the PN 2.0 -- it comes with software that records the BVH sequences (although I don't know if it runs on a Mac or not -- check their site).

By mark - 8 Years Ago

AMEN brother!!!

By drewhshep - 8 Years Ago

Well I'm looking to pull the trigger on the PN 2.0 + anti-mag case tomorrow.

If I may ask, do you think there would be a problem with certain body positions, such as laying flat on the stomach/back? I've read that the Neurons aren't the most durable sensors; have you had any problems with individual neurons?

By animagic - 8 Years Ago

Wish there was a delete post button...

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

drewhshep (11/14/2018)

If I may ask, do you think there would be a problem with certain body positions, such as laying flat on the stomach/back? I've read that the Neurons aren't the most durable sensors; have you had any problems with individual neurons?

What I do when I have these position is I lay on my bed -- for one thing, it really hurts to lay on the harness in certain positions. I have a very firm mattress, and it works well for the "ground".

(I know what you mean, ani -- I've started replies and then thought -- wait. But, too late).

By alexanderlewolf - 7 Years Ago

Hey.
Weird question, and sorry for posting this in an old thread but it wont let me DM you with a new account, but do you know the charger voltage/amperage for the neuron pro? I loaned one from a friend but it came sans charger, and I need to find a new one.

Trying to get support through the neuron team is... let's just say it's challenging. I've spent six hours on this already and can't find this info anywhere.

If you wouldn't mind glancing at your brick and letting me know I would really appreciate it. Thank you very much and good luck with your projects.

By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago

The support team for PN is mostly (only?) Daniel but I will say he's superb WHEN you can get a hold of him.

The trick is to start a ticket right at the site -- do not use the email address there (it won't work and you'll never know it) but if you fill out the online form he'll get back to you within a day or two.

By alexanderlewolf - 7 Years Ago

Excellent, thank you for the reply.