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By bluemidget666 - 15 Years Ago
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After I was asked to do an intro for a freind who expected me to do it in After Effects, instead I used Iclone using the new video montage sets. He asked how I did them so I said Iclone ... then he asked "Whats that" ... Well its a 3D character animation suit I said ..... Ho he said like poser err No not like poser have you seen any machinema I asked ... He said he had but couldn't understand why they didn't just play the game instead of trying to make a film with it .... I said its a bit like that .. He said "?" and pointed at the video id just made and said you crnt do that in Second Life ...
So I said err its complicated....
So what is Iclone:D
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By Dreamcube017 - 15 Years Ago
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Wow I'm surprised no one's answered this.
Ok.
iClone is something that is SPECIFICALLY MADE for creating REALTIME 3D movies ore movies using realtime 3D effects. That would be the best way to describe it.
The reason you can't do this in Second Life (or any other game [unless of course you have access to the actual engine for scripting]) is because it's a GAME and therefore doesn't have any tools or options especially made for doing thins like this. (e.g. the timeline).
He can say "We could've done that in After Effects. SURE, AE DOES have a FEW more little features (or maybe SLIGHTLY more realistic I guess), but then again, that's NOT realtime and you're waiting for renders.
So in short, iClone is a realtime special effects and 3D graphics software. Is it as good as 3DS or Maya? Not yet, but I feel that it is coming close as you can do a lot of very nice things in it.
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By elliespotter - 15 Years Ago
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It's the Swiss Army knife of 3D animation. Everything you need to get the task done but nothing that makes perfection easy :D
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By bluemidget666 - 15 Years Ago
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In another post there was concern that Iclone would not be able to enter a competition for machinema , it occurs to me that if Iclone carries on developing it would not be to long before it stops being a tool for machinema and becomes something different. In my opinion it has already taken a step in this direction with Iclone 4 and the ability to use video, this has opened up an entirely new aspect to Iclone that takes it a step away from machinema and a step nearer to ? 3d max, Poser, just what is the future for Iclone and under what software genre would I find it ?
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By Dreamcube017 - 15 Years Ago
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The fact that some say it's not a machi tool is simply redicuous. Ok sure, it has a SLIGHT edge because it can use video effects and stuff and it s a LITTLE more complex... but at it's core, it's still a machi tool. It's definatly NO 3DS Max, Maya, or even Blender and the users will tell you as such.
I mean, if people wanna get all picky about machi tools, then MovieStorm isn't a TRUE one either... See the trick USED to be "how close can I get this GAME to look like a movie?" Now it's just... "Oh, we're just using DirectX to make movies... no other purpose" Lionhead's TheMovies would still pass because it's a GAME. You can make machinima with Ape Escape 3 and the monkeys on there (it's for the PlayStation 2) They have a little movie making thing... but it's using the GAME's tech. Both moviestorm and iClone are just... 3D movie makers... so in a sense, NIETHER of them are TRUE machi creators because going by that definition, they're not using any sort of game engine. IT's pretty much just 3D sfotware in realtime with really simple animation tools.
Because if movie storm is one, and iCLone isn't, that means that they're saying "oh it's too complex to be a machi creator because you have too many different ways you can do things. Well that's because people requested to DO MORE THINGS so it happened. Moviestorm might evolve somewhat the same way.
And also if we're going by this, then MachStudio Pro is also a machi tool (very expensive but still) a machi tool because it's ALSO using realtime DirectX graphics... sure it's 4,000 dollars, but it's realtime, 3D graphics JUST LIKE iClone and Moviestorm.
See what I'm saying?
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By bluemidget666 - 15 Years Ago
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I did not approach Iclone from a machinema angle, I started in the 1980s with a program called 3d construction kit that allowed you to build 3d worlds and games on the PC and Amiga over the years I moved on to Poser 2 on the Mac then up to Poser 6 , but never got the hang of Poser enough to make a film, it took me long enough to get a character dressed and walking.
So when I met Iclone it felt like what I wanted 3d constructor Kit to be 30 years ago. So when the term Machinema is used it leaves me a bit cold as in my mind it is making films from games. I know this may annoy harden Machinamists (? is that a word) but its just how I feel about the term.
So what would it take for Iclone to no longer be a machinema tool (for competition to exclude it ) and would it be a bad thing if it did move away from Machinema. If Poser and 3dmax and the like became realtime movie making tools would they become machinema ?
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By Dreamcube017 - 15 Years Ago
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Ah now that's a good question. I mean, you can make mvies with 3DS, Maya, whatever... so those ARE movie making tools but I agree with you in the fact that machi (my short word for machinima) is based off a game engine.
Ok I wrote a bunch of stuff about what I thought and then I actually looked up the word Machinima and here are my results.
# Machinima ( or ) is the use of real-time three-dimensional (3-D) graphics rendering engines to generate computer animation. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machinima
# The rendering of computer-generated imagery using low-end (real time) 3D engines such as those found in video games, as opposed to the high-end ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/machinima
# (derived from machine and cinema) is filmmaking created through the real-time recording of computer games, virtual worlds or any already-existing ...
www.twinity.com/en/glossary
# A production technique that can be used to perform digital puppets. Machinima involves creating computer-generated imagery (CGI) using the low-end ...
www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Digital-puppetry
So you can click those links to see the fll ones.
So according to some of these, iCLone IS a machi making tool because it's realtime 3D... however, it's not so... low-end anymore. That's maybe why some don't call it a machi tool... because it's more advanced or more high end, but that doesn't really make sense to me. If I had the power to make movies equal to what's being made in 3DS max in realtime like the big studios do (and they take time to render there too), then I'd LOVE to make movies like that in realtime. iClone allows me to do that... but it's not "low-end..."... OR IS IT? It's not low -end, but I do know that it has a LOT more visual features than movistorm. Some people say it just has a lot of eye candy... but uh... it's for MOVIES and things that you WATCH. What else is it suppose to have? If it were a GAME engine, then you could say that, but really, it has more visual features like I said and that makes it look a bit more high end.
According to some ofthese definitions, none of the specialty machi software (moviestorm or iClone) are true machi creators because it's not using a game engine. ... but they are using premade things... well... iClone 4 actually is about to launch even further when 3D Xchange 3 comes out because then you'll be able to load FBX files which has their own set of bones so nothing will be completly premade anymore.
So in some standards, iClone will always be a machi tool, and in some it won't.When iClone reaches the point where we set something up and we have to wait for it to render it (in nonrealtime) THAT is the true point where it will not be a machi tool anymore.
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By bluemidget666 - 15 Years Ago
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I have read your other post about Iclone becoming a game engine in its own right, this is a very interesting and real potability for Iclone. If it did move in this direction then it would be a formidable machinema and gaming tool, but would this be a benefit to Iclone or a hinderance.
If you think that with the computers always developing, allowing us to do more with each generation it isnt unthinkable for Poser and Iclone to be competing in the same arena (both real time rendering with high quality output) who knows maybe one day it may be a real alternative to 3dmax and the like, but would it get there if it takes the game engine rout, or could it take both. I mean there is no reason why Iclones Pixel shader has to be the highes output option, it could have a higher quality output that does not render in quick time and the lower quality could be used creating games.
Also if Iclone went down the Game engine road it would open up the posabilities of interactive content being produced with it .. now that would be interesting...:w00t:
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By Dreamcube017 - 15 Years Ago
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Indeed, it could have a higher quality that you had to wait for, but then that'd kill the idea of realtime... sure it'd be near realtime because you could still see everything you cannow and then after the post render, it'd just be even better. But then in that case, it'd be like a really nice Blender. (blender has a game engine, but a lot of things can't be rendered in it because it uses only OpenGL)
I konw for a fact that Poser models have a LOT of polygons in them...
The PlayStation 3 is able to render about 1.2 million polygons at a framerate that's a bit over 30. This is because ofthe special CPU it has (the cell processor). Computers don't need that CPU because we now have GFX cards with over a gig ofRAM in them... but not many people have those. I have one with 786 megs of video RAM. The average person now has 512 megs... some still have about 128 megs. I remember when 512 was still a high number and that wasn't too long ago... about a year maybe. So maybe in a few years or near the end of 2010 even, the average person will have a GFX card with 700 megs of RAM but I doubt it. I said all that to say that the idea of 3DS Max andPoser doing things in real time (glibal illumination and stuff like that) isn't quite here yet. I've seen a FEW engines that can do realtime global illumination and direct lighting, but they are far and inbetween. I think that iClone as a game engine wouldn't harm it at all.
For realtime we'd still have to stay with pixel shaders for a while I think but they COULD fix their reflection glitch which has not been fixed in 4.
Another thing they can do is add physics... NOT certain objects that we have to by that have physics in them... but physics in the brogram... or if they are going to sell it, sell a pack with ALL the 3D blocks, just... with physics applied to them.. and not set physics, I mean... if I wanna make it bouncy, I can, if I wanna make it like a giant rock, I can.
And then the LAST thing... wel lnot the last, but last in this list, is to give the characters motion synthesis. To see what I mean, google a software called Endorphin or Euphoria. If THOSE were in iCLone, I'm sure people would just about die... and then revive them selves and die again two more times before using the software.
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By rayj00 - 15 Years Ago
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I like the physics idea. Ever play with Cararra? It has some pretty nifty physics features...
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By Dreamcube017 - 15 Years Ago
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yes I've played with Carrara for a while before I found iClone... and yes I've not played with the physics much, but I know everytime I want to do something in there I run into a different and for that reason I don't use it as much besides modeling I guess.
Now BLENDER has fun physics with hair and cloth that you can play with in real time... sure it's a LITTLE choppy, but it's still fun to watch. Now if only they could put that in their game engine... althoughyou can bake the cloth animations into the geometry so you can fake dynamic cloth in games and everything.
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By aknzrdude - 15 Years Ago
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i think a lot of people are getting hung up on semantics - machinima has its origins in game engines and there are purist who will defend this and belittle non game engine based movies
but now as user created movies becomes more and more prevalent, i think this distinction will blur - communites like TMU are basically becoming more engine agnostic and more content/storyline focused. In fact some of the community have started using the term "anymation" - to describe these movies (i am using 'mycinema' first as a play on 'machinma' and also to indicate these are movies created by me using engines selected by me)
to me i would describe iclone simply as a movie making software - you are the director and the software provides you the sets and characters which you can enhance by using actual voice actors
a lot of energy has gone on to request various features such as collision detection, physics, motion synthesis -these capabilities will surely make you more efficient, make your movies look a lot better but ultimately it is the story and how you tell it that matters and all of these become transparent once you export your movie
now there is of course another camp who enjoy exploring the technical aspects and test various capabilities, putting out test videos and such - to them iclone is a hobby program compared to the likes of maya, 3ds max since it does not have feature a, b, and c and they are right in that context
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By Dreamcube017 - 15 Years Ago
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That's a good point.
Frankly, I dooon't care what it's called. You can call it machinima, you can call it 3D movie making in realtime... you can call it BACON if you want! I don't care. I just want to make raw lookin' movies without having to wait two years for anyone to see it... JUST to realize that there was a slight flaw that will have to cause me to RERENDER it ALL OVER AGAIN.
Am I trying to make a good machi (my cute version of the word machinima)... I have NO IDEA... Am I trying to make a nice looking movie with an interesting story... YES.
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By miguel.lobo - 15 Years Ago
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Interesting topic.
I think it is a 3D movie making machine, packed with props, actors, cameras and all you need to produce your animation movies.
it is real time so it is hardware dependent and sure the render isnt GI and AO but as a tool for character animation sure rocks and still packs some juice for people who are starting and not willing to spend some real money in other software packages.
iClone is one of a kind, and if it doesnt go "the game style" software I would be happy!
Peace
Miguel
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By elliespotter - 15 Years Ago
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Dreamcube017 (1/13/2010)
Am I trying to make a nice looking movie with an interesting story... YES.Agreed. The original question is based on a fallacious premise that software need be categorised and labelled. All artists seek to create something original, critics seek to categorise their work and judge it acording to their criteria. Personally, I am happy describing it as a 3d animation tool in the same sentence as I'd describe Microsoft as a software company. Who cares? I buy a hammer to knock in a nail. It's for the salesman to persuade me his particular hammer is going to give me feelings of joy and happiness as I construct my dog kennel.
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By bluemidget666 - 15 Years Ago
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I would argue that Software like Music needs to be catagorised and labeled, if it was not then we would need to sift through pages and pages of software lists hoping the name gave some indication of what the software does.
Take Iclone for example if i wanted to do a video sequence now possible with the 3D video montage add on but Iclone is sold as a 3D character animation program I would not think to explore it as a video special effects program.:)
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By jwm2002 - 15 Years Ago
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miguel.lobo (1/13/2010)
Interesting topic.
I think it is a 3D movie making machine, packed with props, actors, cameras and all you need to produce your animation movies.
[rant]
I would disagree with the above statement. Most machinima communities employ total creative freedom... for FREE. Meaning, most mods are passed along at no cost by other users. iClone is a marketing ploy to get you in bed to purchase more software add-ins such as props, actors, and motions. This plan may make them money - who really knows, but it is also the biggest barrier to taking the program mainstream.
You do buy the software thinking, "it is a 3D movie making machine, packed with props, actors, cameras and all you need to produce your animation movies" and then realize it doesn't quite get you there, and boom, you end-up purchasing more stuff. It basically pits the users against each other by taking away the advantage of sharing free ideas and mods that drives growth in other communities.
Overall, this is the biggest disapointment with the program and community. Everyone is trying to make a buck on this thing. You need something, people will point you straight to a motion pack or clothing pack. Also, you really need 3ds Max to move beyond standard default characters and motions. Hell, dudes are even charging people for classes to learn to use the software. I can't even get a straight answer on why they choose the default character's included with program. What can you really make with uncle Benny?
The business aspect of the company tied to the users truly undermines the overall community.
[/end of rant]
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By bluemidget666 - 15 Years Ago
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I am not somebody to defend some of Reallusion marketing techniques but you claim that other machinema communities supply training and content for free and this stopes Iclone going mainstream.
This is an argument that can only work if Iclone is a Machinema tool and nothing else as the buying of content is not unusual in the 3D world look at Daz and Poser for a kick off, and there are other asaspects to the Iclone community that supply a large range of content free or for a very reasonable price ( RL content is at a premium price though but good ). The thing is though is it this that causes Machinema groups to look down on Iclone or that Iclone is a different kind of tool.
what does mainstream mean in Machinema terms? and what are the Mainstream programs used in the Machinema community ?
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By Dreamcube017 - 15 Years Ago
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Hmm... well just so you konw.. the other machi tools aren't free... Moviestorm is free... until you wanna use content other than what comes with it...
Um... The game engins ain't free. The source engine isn't free to my knowledge. Garry's mod isn't free either as far as I konw.
But in a sense, that's how any 3D app works. You can get 3DS Max and then "oh, I need this this and that"... oops, guess I gotta buy this plugin.
With iClone you DO NOT have to buy packs you konw... You can buy 3DX (a plugin) and just use whatever you want from blender) You DO NOT have to buy an animation pack... there are a TON of free animation files.
You CAN make your own faces and thinsg for iClone... and can use the clonecloth and make all your own stuff... there are the 3D blocks... use those.
Oh, Blender's free but there are PAYED things to learn how to use it.
test01 makes a good point, but iClone's not the only one to do this or who wants money.
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By Dreamcube017 - 15 Years Ago
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Alright so I'm sure everyone's seen (or will see) this when they enter the forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOEiXEd-6dk
Interesting... but I'm sorry... THAT, kind of pushes iCLone out of the machi field...
It's kind of odd to watch actually... It's like... Microsoft now advertising that Word can make comics or something...
It's still interesting and I still have not tried the popvideo thing even though I think I can use Sony to turn my blue cover (poorman's blue screeen) into a black background. So hopefully I won't need that because I'm thinking of STILL getting 3DX... yeah I haven't gotten it yet... but the point is that iClone CAN do machi... but now it's kind of evolving into a realtime 3D graphics and animation and presentation tool.. and somewhat of a video editor too kind of...
So it sort of is the consumer friendly version of MachStudio Pro which I don't mind at all. I like that it's evolving.
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