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By Miranda (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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*Update: Work in Progress 1 has been revealed on May 22nd
Character Creator 3 - Universal Character Platform
The Decision to Make CC a Standalone ProductCC, at its inception, was a plug-in for iClone to fulfill the needs of the animation industry. In order to export characters from CC to 3rd party tools, users were required to purchase 3DXchange Pro / Pipeline edition. CC quickly became a market leader in the field of 3D character creation with its ability to morph the human body in boundless ways, dress and conform a variety of garments, supple implementation of facial expressions, support for body motions and much much more.
Over the last two plus years, we have received a lot of demand of the character generation features in CC from non-iClone users, spanning the field of 3D game development, AR/VR and other interactive applications. In response, we have decided to make CC a standalone application which can chart its own path and destiny. This has big implications in the way CC will take shape to support all of the necessary character import and export features, minimize its barriers to entry, and lower its dependency to outside 3D tools.
What to Expect for Character Creator 3
As a result of more research and development allocated to CC3, this year saw the rise of significant technological breakthroughs. They include optimization techniques relevant to game characters, deployment of physically accurate fine rendering, and marked enhancements to data exchange with 3rd party solutions. Using mesh optimization and remeshing technology, CC3 can satisfy the requirements of different gaming environments including first and third person perspective, non-player characters and crowd simulation among others. In addition, the full integration of NVIDIA Iray fine render technology allows CC3 to deliver photorealistic imagery.
All this comes with the benefit of working with one of the world's most interoperable and user friendly content creation pipeline. This ease of operation extends to the integration of ZBrush with GoZ - the dynamic bridge that allows for the sculpting of CC's quad based meshes for the body and other tangibles. The asset creation pipeline has also been expedited with the ability to directly import any sort of OBJ file and using CC3 auto-skin and skin weight editing, create content that is 100% compatible with CC3.
Users who continue to use CC for iClone will also benefit from the new generation of character bases that will be released with CC3. Assets and garments already owned can be applied to this new generation base body, as it is completely backwards compatible.
We wish to use the following post to share the roadmap ahead along with relevant technical breakthroughs. For sales related inquiries please wait further still for notices from Reallusion. The following feature peeks are split into four sections: - Next Generation Character Base
- Content Creation Pipeline Optimization
- Level of Detail (LOD)
- Fine Rendering
1. Next Generation Character BaseThe new generation base mesh preserves quad face data making it convenient to modify in a 3rd party software. It has also solved a number of issues from the previous generation base, including the following: - Unsatisfactory stomach deformation when twisting.
- Optimization for the structures of the eyelashes and the eyes.
- Optimization for the edge-loops on the head and body.
- Strange shoulder shape when the arms are raised or lowered to the sides of the body.
- Strange hand and fingers shape when gripping or open.
- Oddly shaped feet.
- Strange buttocks shape when the thighs are bent.
- Deformed joint shapes around the elbows and knees while in motion.
- Fine-tuned the original skeleton with the addition of share-bones.
When one wishes to modify the shape of the character or content, just use the hassle-free GoZ function inside CC3 to launch the item of interest into ZBrush, modify it in quad face mode, and send the result back to CC3.
Character Body sample:
Cloth sample:
OBJ import + Auto Skin + Skin Weight EditingImport any sort of OBJ file, use CC3 auto-skin and skin weight editing to create content that is 100% compatible with CC. Applicable to shirts, pants, shoes, gloves, etc.
Partial ConformingIf a prop, for example, a helmet has both hard and soft surfaces (helmet cap and helmet strap), then one can utilize the partial conform function to freely designate areas that can deform and areas that stay hard. This is so that the prop maintains a proper shape when it is applied to different characters of all shapes and sizes.   3. Level of Detail (LOD)
In a lot of cases, you might have highly detailed source mesh for the outfit, accessory or hair, but the polygon count is too high for real-time animation. Polygon Optimization can help to reduce the polygon count while retaining its original shape and UV data to maintain its original look while gaining significant performance improvements.
On the other hand, rendering performance and minimal memory usage are key factors to take into account for game developers, especially when there are a lot of characters in the scene or when several LODs (levels of detail) are required for a few characters. Remeshing helps by merging all of the geometry and UV maps to ensure minimal draw call with no noticeable loss in visual quality.
Polygon Optimization
Polygon optimization preserves the surface attributes which allows it to render and shade true to the original look. Optimization can be applied to the current character including its clothing and accessories or can be applied to individual objects and entities. Along with random reduction as a result of polygon optimization, one can also utilize the Mesh Modifier to hide unwanted faces set to be culled upon export. An example of extreme 90% polygon reduction:  An example of 60% polygon reduction:  Remeshing
The Remeshing process derives a completely new topology and remaps the existing texture data to its surface -including normal map information. Remeshed skinned characters and objects retains the original rigging data to the same skeleton, so the existing animation is preserved. This solution is ideal for those who are dealing with scenes with large amount of people far away. Remeshing is a destructive process, so once a character is remeshed and exported, it can not return into CC3 for additional editing. An example of 60% polygon reduction:  *When the remeshed character is brought into iClone, it is considered to be a Non-standard character that can support body motions but can not perform facial expressions. 4. Fine Rendering
Iray
NVIDIA® IRAY® is a highly interactive and intuitive physically based rendering technology that generates photorealistic imagery by simulating the physical behavior of light and materials. By integrating with Iray, you can deliver photorealistic imagery directly in CC3. Other than many great Iray features which you can explore from NVIDIA Iray page, Reallusion has made a good progress to ensure the PBR/MDL material compatibility, and give perfect camera alignment. Some features you might expect to have in CC3 and iClone: - Extremely fast AI Accelerated GPU rendering for Interactivity and image output
- Support native Iray MDL (Material Definition Language) for high quality material rendering
- Sub-surface Scattering (SSS) and Caustics
- Light Path and Multi-pass Rendering for compositing pipeline
- DOF
- Custom shader design such like Toon Rendering
Rendered in Character Creator & iClone Rendered in IrayEnhanced with Subsurface Scattering (SSS) 
Rendered in Character Creator & iClone Rendered in Iray CC3 and iClone will be integrated with the same Iray rendering. You can tell the Iray render speed and realism from this engineering prototype.
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By mtakerkart - 7 Years Ago
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WOW AND WOW!!!! My best is auto-skin weight for clothes , partial conforming and LOD generator!!!!!!!!!!!!
Congratulations Reallusion!!!
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By Alien Maniac - 7 Years Ago
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Nice idea but what is it going to cost users as a stand alone program now? $$$$
or FREE for IC7 users.
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Text-to-speech function is limited to 200 characters |
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Hmmm, sure hope I live long enough to see *any* of this (we saw Python scripting previews over a year ago and it isn't here yet -- I'm guessing we won't see any of this until 2019 at the earliest, and most likely 2020 with the introduction of iClone 8).
Still, for those of you younger, you have amazing times ahead!
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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Lots of good news here! And Python is confirmed! Ouf :)
The only bad news is.. Iray. Aï Aï Aï.. Same mistake as with Indigo.
While I understand the commercial marketing benefits of getting closer to Daz 3D, it should have been the Brigade renderer for movie makers :/ I just hope the door is not closed..
Also, no word about a new 3DXchange version ?
ps: my comments also include what I red in the Roadmap newsletter just received.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Guy,
Glad you mentioned the iRay thing -- all I could think of when I watched their "test" of speed was "well, it will be nice for stills". Which, essentially, is what Daz is good for.
Let's hope that saner minds prevail when it comes to those of us who want to use iClone for what it was designed for (making animations).
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By Rogue Anime - 7 Years Ago
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[b]Also, no word about a new 3DXchange version ?
Ahh... 3DXchange 7.2 - Our neglected, somewhat busted product with a UI designed for the blind - The dysfunctional elephant child, still in the room.. waiting for attention like the proverbial red-headed step-child. Looks like their energies are spent elsewhere, as demonstrated by this thread. At least this CC3 product makes 3DX a bit more redundant. :rolleyes: ~V~
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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WOW!!!:kiss::cool:
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (2/14/2018)
Guy,
Glad you mentioned the iRay thing -- all I could think of when I watched their "test" of speed was "well, it will be nice for stills". Which, essentially, is what Daz is good for.
Let's hope that saner minds prevail when it comes to those of us who want to use iClone for what it was designed for (making animations).
It is very odd. Sometimes it seem Reallusion heads have shifted their vision from "movie making" application to "content creation" application, but then PopcornFX integration that cannot be exported, definitively more interesting for movie makers than content creators for games.
CC3 will be awesome, no doubt about that, skinning ability, LOD, better base meshes etc.. But now standalone so.. at what cost ? I'm already having hardtime to follow (still can't afford Faceware plugin nor Neuron mocap system, PopcornFX hopefully soon.. :/ ) little by little this is becoming as expensive as a Maya standard version lol, but still without a proper rendering engine for movie makers (even so v7.2 is a big move toward that goal). This is the last major issue that need to be addressed one way or another. It is so obvious the Brigade engine is THE solution, I just hope they did not tried already but have been confronted to licencing issues or something and that the door is still open to have it integrated into iClone.
Hey, at least we will have true mirrors in iClone now ^^.
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By illusionLAB - 7 Years Ago
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Personally, I'm getting tired of all the "nice shiny things dangled before us" whilst KEY features (which I have already paid for), like FBX export, are still broken. As for 3DXchange... where's that roadmap?
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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It definitely seems like their "roadmap" is all over the place. Why integrate FW and mocap if you can't animate? Oh, right, game creation. So that is going to be their focus (except -- iRay isn't for that, so why?) Half the time I feel like they are doing things "because we can", but there's no question a LOT of their focus is on game creation and that will leave many of us out (I wonder what the poll numbers would show on that -- the easy way to judge would be how many folks buy the full export version of any content they offer. If more than half then they are heading in the right direction... for them).
In any case, it really is all just speculation and idle curiosity on my part -- I don't want to be morbid, but the window is closing on what I can and can't do in life, and this looks to be several years out, which makes it iffy for me. I'll probably SEE it, but whether I can actually use it or not remains to be seen. In the meantime, I'll enjoy all we have (which is considerable).
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (2/14/2018)
It definitely seems like their "roadmap" is all over the place. Why integrate FW and mocap if you can't animate? Oh, right, game creation. So that is going to be their focus (except -- iRay isn't for that, so why?) Half the time I feel like they are doing things "because we can", but there's no question a LOT of their focus is on game creation and that will leave many of us out (I wonder what the poll numbers would show on that -- the easy way to judge would be how many folks buy the full export version of any content they offer. If more than half then they are heading in the right direction... for them).
In any case, it really is all just speculation and idle curiosity on my part -- I don't want to be morbid, but the window is closing on what I can and can't do in life, and this looks to be several years out, which makes it iffy for me. I'll probably SEE it, but whether I can actually use it or not remains to be seen. In the meantime, I'll enjoy all we have (which is considerable).
What I'm afraid is that they gain more and more game professionals and loose more and more movie makers hobbyists due to the high price tag of all the applications and plugins that are now available - especially if you want to get it all. And that would make them focus more and more on games rather than movie making consequently.
Commercially that would be understandable unfortunately (depend on the actual resources they get from that compared to what they get from Content Store & Market Place). But then there are cinematic for games so perhaps the next 3DXchange would be able to export iClone scenes, ready to render to Unreal cinematic system for instance, perhaps using a modified Unreal "render only" iClone plugin version. After all, that would do ;)
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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It will be interesting times, indeed, to see what happens with iClone in the future (and "may you live in interesting times" is a Chinese curse :>).
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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YES!
YES!
YEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
Take that, DAZ!
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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Wow! Those are a lot of great improvements planned.
I am particularly excited about the "body" updates to the characters. The hands especially bothered me when you bent the fingers to make a fist or similar action. I didn't realize how bad some of the other parts were, but the side-by-side old/new video did a great job of demonstrating the flaws and their corresponding improvements.
As for Iray, I enjoy using it as part of Substance Painter and Designer, and I eagerly looked forward to more high-end rendering plug-ins when Indigo was first enabled, but I agree with the concerns and questions raised by others in this thread. In summary, "Why?" What is the value of this plug-in. Useful for animation or not, will Iray also be available for iClone, or only Character Creator?
Sub surface scattering (SS) - Will that find its way into the iClone renderer without requiring something like Iray? Some game engines support that.
Cost. Oh yes, the iClone movie-making suite is getting more and more expensive with every release. That is a dilema for everyone; Reallusion, current customers, and new customers. All I know is I better start filling my "coin jar" at home so I'll be ready.
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By mtakerkart - 7 Years Ago
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CC 3 will be a big benefit for movie maker. May be because some people don't have the faceware plugin
but the new face topology will give us the ability to create more convincing facial blendshape .
LOD is not only for game , we NEED this for movie making... etc. All the new features seams to be game oriented
but Iclone IS a game engine!!!! I didn't see on this new update something useless for realtime movie maker .....
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By wires - 7 Years Ago
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All of this is great news, with the usual exceptions as always.
In 2015 RL introduced a 3D Face/Head creator and bundled it with their 2D CrazyTalk stuff. They promised us that they would release a plugin version for use with iClone/CC - it never happened.
Now they are promising even more Character goodies, but still no mention of being able to use a photo to create a Face/Head with all these flashing light features directly inside iClone/CC.
Users who continue to use CC for iClone will also benefit from the new generation of character bases that will be released with CC3
Well, that's a relief at least.
And the costs, :w00t::Whistling:
Time will tell - as always.
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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wires (2/14/2018)
../..In 2015 RL introduced a 3D Face/Head creator and bundled it with their 2D CrazyTalk stuff. They promised us that they would release a plugin version for use with iClone/CC - it never happened../..
Agreed with Gerry, CC3 will be awesome, no doubt about that, but it can't really be qualified as a "standalone" application until 3D Face/Head creation will also be integrated into it.
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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I just red this from the iClone 2018 Roadmap:
"../..After integrating iClone 7 with the PopcornFX particle engine, 3D Camera Tracking has become the most critical feature to finish turning iClone into a full, 3D Video Compositing platform. To make iClone even more capable for VFX design and Pre-visualization, we are glad to announce that Boris FX Mocha, the Academy Award-winning Planar Tracker and 3D Camera Solver, will soon be another plugin for the iClone family../.."
That worries me a lot. First I was not aware iClone would turn into a full "3D Video Compositing platform" - which it won't be anyway - even with the (pricey I guess) integration of Mocha.
That's not what I pay for when buying iClone lol, if I wanted a full "3D Video Compositing platform" I'll use Hitfilm, Digital Fusion, Nuke, thanks. And regarding tracking, I would use SynthEyes which is one of the most used (and powerful) on US TV Shows and yet quite cheap at $499.
And regarding iRay, If I want a standard 3D DCC application with a GPU pathracer renderer, I already have Lightwave and Octane thanks (with price now almost in par with iClone and Co.)
Arghh.. sh@t, I'm ranting again, despite the great news! iClone is definitively a Love/Hate affair ;)
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By wires - 7 Years Ago
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Wow!!!! Boris Mocha as a plugin:
Mocha Pro Pricing| Product | Adobe | Avid | OFX | All Hosts | Standalone and All Hosts | | Mocha Pro New | $695.00 | $695.00 | $695.00 | $995.00 | $1,495.00 |
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Remember the above prices do not include the required RL Exporter/Interface/Plugin.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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Re Mocha...
I'm obviously missing something. Please educate me.
What is the value of adding Mocha to iClone?
- Object removal... in iClone, just turn visibility off
- Planar tracking to replace screens... we can already do that by attaching planes (with image or video) to objects and they then move with the target object, or we simply use textures
Maybe the 3D camera tracking ("Camera Solver") would be usefull for "inserting" iClone items into a video, but that's all I'm seeing at the moment.
Is the idea mainly to put iClone things into existing camera footage? If so, it seems like we would only be using about 5 to 10% of what Mocha does, so it would be good if we could get a very cheap, limited-functionality version of it.
What am I missing?
UPDATE: Okay, I probably answered my own question. If Reallusion really wants to do VFX work by incorporating iClone content into existing camera footage, Mocha looks like a pretty cool tool. So you could have the big mechanical dinosaur terrorize your back yard after you film your kid's birthday party, or something like that. I wonder how magical it will be in practice? Consider the FW plug-in, which does a nice job in many ways, but (AFIK) doesn't do things like the tongue motion for things like the "th" sound when you talk. Still, please feel free to correct me and provide additional insight for me.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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grabiller (2/14/2018)
I just red this from the iClone 2018 Roadmap:
Do you have a link for that?
I don't see it in the forum, unless it's an old thread.
Facebook?
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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@justaviking
https://forum.reallusion.com/357102/iClone-7-Roadmap-2018?utm_source=rc_1802&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_term=ic_know_more
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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I am more interested in the CC3 high definition modeling potential than the Iray part....
but, I think the Iray part is going to be AWESOME!
The speed in the test video looks to be like that of Daz Studio's current Iray iteration. In my opinion , slower than....here we go...Octane....
BUT, right off the bat this iteration of Iray seems to match the output that was in the scene already, which is not default-possible through Octane now. So, consider what is process-wise faster then.
Also, to put this demo in context, in the test video, you get:
1) 1 mesh, with
2) who knows how many polygon optimizations, and then
3) it's not really a closeup either,
4) the resolution of the image created is unknown, but if I used Daz's iteration as a benchmark, it outputs on the screen an image matching the resolution it is rendering at. So my hunch is that it is a render < 1080p...
BUT, is that a 4K monitor?...so it's unknown
So now, as far as raw speed goes, it will obviously not be the 1-second thing we can potentially have now in iClone through strict-PBR.
This example was not a demanding scene for Iray, and it took about 20 seconds individually, or so, for each of the 2 frames rendered. That's not really too bad considering what you would get say in the old Indigo plugin. Indigo could make great images fast once in the engine, but the export process was too slow, unfortunately process-wise making it unusable for animations.
As far as process output, 1000 frames at 20 seconds is reasonable (20,000 / 60 = 333 minutes....333/60 = 5.5 hrs for a 30 second-30 FPS video) when compared top say Octane or Indigo, with regards to outright render speed.
Also, how many GPU were being used, because if only 1, this is pretty damn stellar. So, if you use Octane or Iray for Daz or anything else, let's say, you could possibly burn that time down correspondingly by adding in another GPU.
Going off of Daz Iray, I would estimate if the demo is 1 GPU, 4 GPU would knock that render time down by 10-12 seconds. Iray has its own processing time it has to compute and this is held up by more GPU, so a lot of times it's not about adding in as many GPU as possible, but by finding a sweet spot where it can 'process', not alone render, an individual frame. Then again, maybe the demop was in fact multi-GPU....this is unknown as well
(Speed metric unknowns - resolution, and GPU type/count)
So, an image rendered off of an iClone scene with many meshes, not optimized polygon wise, and at HD, may be in fact WAY longer. Again, Daz can give you a better idea how long it would take as it has Iray already.
BALLPARKING for a 'modest' scene (couple avatars, props) - 1 minute per frame, with say, 4 Titan X. 1000 frames * 60 sec per frame = 60,000 seconds/60 frames = 1,000 minutes = 16 hours for a 33 second video at 30FPS, with all HD.
(I have used Octane, Iray, and Indigo, multi-GPU, so I am doing my best to benchmark what this could look like for us...)
BUT - this is a Kuzzillion times better than not having it at all. And We will find optimizations for render times just like we do in Daz. Indigo had SSS too, but it was just too dysfunctional for the greater iClone animatory usage.
Add to that, PBR rendering abilities will advance independently from anything Iray, and Iray itself will likely get faster as time goes on (although, as a Daz user, not really so much speed increase recently...I am actually rooting, as it were, for a stronger PBR development.)
My thought is that if CC3 is going on its own path it will mean that there are more resources being put into it, independent of iClone.
This could in turn mean that iClone's own development will be more focused on itself, and we would see all the things we want from that engine's development faster.
I think of it as we never lose the community we have in iClone, we just join a much larger one.
None of this is intended to say that this is ideally what you want, or that it will meet your expectations. I just feel, myself, that this is a very great development for RL and its user base...
So congrats to RL for taking this step!
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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4x Titan = $4800.
Yeah... no thanks. (That's even assuming you can get a motherboard to do that - I suspect we're talking at least 10-20K for a machine capable of handling all that, if even possible).
iClone made it's mark as a (wait for it) REAL TIME machine. i.e. -- you can animate in real time and, yes, it might be a *bit* longer to actually produce content, but nothing approaching the time needed by Max (which, honestly, is FAR faster per dollar -- if you spend $3K for Max you can throw just about ANY old machine at it, don't even need a good graphics card, even just onboard graphics. Give me 20K and I'll produce Max renders FAR better than anything iRay can do, at a fraction of the time. My old Max rendering farm didn't cost that much and that was over a decade ago).
But I don't want to get into an argument here -- it is what it is. It's preposterous, of course, but that's the way RL is deciding to go (and need I say the whole Indigo thing was equally preposterous, but that's for another time. Except -- you see where that went and I DID tell you so, although years ago nobody was listening).
I won't be around to see the conclusion, but I certainly will gripe from the sidelines <g>.
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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@TonyDPrime
Old news, this is what people said with Indigo. Then..
Regarding maths, better see it that way: lets say iRay renders your images in 20s and iClone in 2s.
1 hour of movie at 24 fps: 3600*24 = 86400 images, 86400*2/3600 = 48h of rendering with iClone, 480h with iRay, which is 20 days.
20s is way too long, we are after max 2s rendering for what we do. Else I'd rather use Redshift for instance, which is even far faster than any pathtracer, iRay, Octane, etc..
The only renderer compatible with the realtime/2s rendering time constraints while being a PBR pathtracer is the Brigade engine.
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By Postfrosch - 7 Years Ago
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Hello RL (and all Jubler)
I would like to ask some (for me) basic questions:
(From loud "WOW" and "Wow WOW" and "YEEESSSS" you come to shcon directly as a last and "Nestbeschmutzer" before any concerns against the "super duper great" new CC to express :blush::blush:)
1. Does the 2.xx plug-in die for IClone with CC 3?
2. Will Iclone 7.xx (which must appear in order to work together with CC 3) then stop working with CC 2.xx?
3. Is Iclone taking over from the hobby section for movie clip producers to the supplier for the game creators for the commercial ones?
4. Could not some of these innovations (which are very interesting and useful read) not as an update in the CC 2.xx can integrate? (or are previous users not interesting / money-enough?)5. What are the costs for the new CC 3 ($ 200- $ 300, $ 300- $ 500 or more)? Or is it still free for IC 7 users? (which I do not believe !!!)
6. Do I still need programs like ZBrush etc. to work with the new CC?
7. With what resource-effort is to be expected for the Hadrware so that they can work properly with the new Super CC 3.x?
8. Should one as a normal user without interest in game creation, IRay rendering, etc. not say goodbye to Iclone? (The prices for a full Iclone edition rose and went up immensely and for some of us probably too expensive a thing)
The super pros will probably be able to laugh at these concerns only.
It will probably interest you (as well as RL).
But after the long time I've spent with Iclone, it's very serious to me with these questions.
As it now stands for me after these announcements from RL,
is probably the purchase of 3dx7 and the FX plugin have been the last purchase,
I invested in Iclone. Unfortunately, it makes no sense to me anymore :crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:
Greetings from Germany
Postfrosch
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (2/14/2018)
4x Titan = $4800.
Yeah... no thanks. (That's even assuming you can get a motherboard to do that - I suspect we're talking at least 10-20K for a machine capable of handling all that, if even possible).
iClone made it's mark as a (wait for it) REAL TIME machine. i.e. -- you can animate in real time and, yes, it might be a *bit* longer to actually produce content, but nothing approaching the time needed by Max (which, honestly, is FAR faster per dollar -- if you spend $3K for Max you can throw just about ANY old machine at it, don't even need a good graphics card, even just onboard graphics. Give me 20K and I'll produce Max renders FAR better than anything iRay can do, at a fraction of the time. My old Max rendering farm didn't cost that much and that was over a decade ago).
But I don't want to get into an argument here -- it is what it is. It's preposterous, of course, but that's the way RL is deciding to go (and need I say the whole Indigo thing was equally preposterous, but that's for another time. Except -- you see where that went and I DID tell you so, although years ago nobody was listening).
I won't be around to see the conclusion, but I certainly will gripe from the sidelines <g>.
@ KT & Guy- I am rooting for PBR to get better myself, I LOVE looking at what developments and products Unreal and Unity have been getting with regards to their PBR engine shading routines.
And this does look like an Indigo "reboot". Yeah, not everyone wants what it gives...but you know a lot of us will be buying this.
But let's say iRay can cut its speed in half (I know...) ...and maybe not an 1 hr video, but a 10 minute video, this would be < 24 hr...with photoreal reflections, refractions, SSS, and occlusions....this would be pretty compelling.
(Also, as an Octane user I hope Brigade will be something amazing....after a few more updates, not too far off now! I love the Octane ecosystem very much...)
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (2/14/2018)
@ KT & Guy- I am rooting for PBR to get better myself, I LOVE looking at what developments and products Unreal and Unity have been getting with regards to their PBR engine shading routines.
And this does look like an Indigo "reboot". Yeah, not everyone wants what it gives...but you know a lot of us will be buying this.
But let's say iRay can cut its speed in half (I know...) ...and maybe not an 1 hr video, but a 10 minute video, this would be < 24 hr...with photoreal reflections, refractions, SSS, and occlusions....this would be pretty compelling../..
But I can do that already with Lightwave/Octane or Softimage/Redshift so what the point in using iClone then ?
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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grabiller (2/14/2018)
TonyDPrime (2/14/2018)
@ KT & Guy- I am rooting for PBR to get better myself, I LOVE looking at what developments and products Unreal and Unity have been getting with regards to their PBR engine shading routines.
And this does look like an Indigo "reboot". Yeah, not everyone wants what it gives...but you know a lot of us will be buying this.
But let's say iRay can cut its speed in half (I know...) ...and maybe not an 1 hr video, but a 10 minute video, this would be < 24 hr...with photoreal reflections, refractions, SSS, and occlusions....this would be pretty compelling../..But I can do that already with Lightwave/Octane or Softimage/Redshift so what the point in using iClone then ?
Right, but just imagine having PopcornFX, the lighting, everything non-exportable by iClone to these other formats, with said rendering improvement.
But I know what you are saying...I'm imagining lighting the scene in iClone and using its own internals...In this case I think re-doing the texturing & lighting work is a hassle sometimes once exported out, would be quite the convenience all in iClone. But, if you just create a scene and then go out to texture materials and light later, yeah, nothing really gained.
Like a convenience thing to have everything in iClone.
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By SpiderTec - 7 Years Ago
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What about multi limb characters in the future with a bone insertion option? 4 arms.. 12 tentacles in their hair, 6 eyes....etc. Just human characters?
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By joel.lovell - 7 Years Ago
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I wonder if this means that the GoZ export in DAZ will have an easier method to get figure and clothes and hair products into CC...
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (2/14/2018)
grabiller (2/14/2018)
TonyDPrime (2/14/2018)
@ KT & Guy- I am rooting for PBR to get better myself, I LOVE looking at what developments and products Unreal and Unity have been getting with regards to their PBR engine shading routines.
And this does look like an Indigo "reboot". Yeah, not everyone wants what it gives...but you know a lot of us will be buying this.
But let's say iRay can cut its speed in half (I know...) ...and maybe not an 1 hr video, but a 10 minute video, this would be < 24 hr...with photoreal reflections, refractions, SSS, and occlusions....this would be pretty compelling../..But I can do that already with Lightwave/Octane or Softimage/Redshift so what the point in using iClone then ? Right, but just imagine having PopcornFX, the lighting, everything non-exportable by iClone to these other formats, with said rendering improvement. But I know what you are saying...I'm imagining lighting the scene in iClone and using its own internals...In this case I think re-doing the texturing & lighting work is a hassle sometimes once exported out, would be quite the convenience all in iClone. But, if you just create a scene and then go out to texture materials and light later, yeah, nothing really gained. Like a convenience thing to have everything in iClone.
I came to iClone 10 years ago or so to experiment the feasibility of full 3d TV Shows and Movies with a "machinima" approach and 10 years later here is iClone v7.2 which is close to offer all the needed features for that. The united motion capture pipeline will be unique and sounds awesome, in fact a lot of already available or announced features are awesome, but there is still this "little" shard in the foot that stop you to walk straight: rendering.
Huge improvements in v7.2, for sure, lot of things can be done but we are not there yet, and if Reallusion thinks it can solve the rendering rants and issues by integrating a "standard" renderer we already have - meaning not "machinima" related which means not near realtime rendering - and if I can render better and faster elsewhere, then why bother using iClone anymore (as a movie maker that is) ?
The iClone rendering solution should already be at least as good or better than Unreal or Unity, a better alternative would be Brigade though.
That said, Reallusion did a pretty good job at staying alive, and they seem to have much more resources than by the past so I can't criticize their commercial and marketing decisions, including getting closer from the game market.
All I am asking is for them to finish the job by addressing definitively this rendering issue. Once done, they can work on whatever extension, plugin, new features, new innovations, new ideas they want or have in mind.
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By RobertoColombo - 7 Years Ago
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Great news! 2018 will be an interesting year.... :)
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By DV-Studios - 7 Years Ago
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The upgrades sound great. I agree with more support for non-human characters such as animals in CC. Also would love to be able to import characters such as DAZ characters into CC. Maybe 3D exchange could convert, or since its planned to be stand-alone have it built right in. Also one more request. Fur. Looking forward to the new CC.
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By uvz - 7 Years Ago
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I had been hoping for CC to create a low res mesh for mobile games. But the polygon count still looks too much for mobile phones. More than the AAA games people are on their mobile. That chunk of the market can not be tapped with such a polygon count. It needs to be brought way down than the one being proposed in CC 3. With a polygon count like the one proposed now it wouldn't budge in the mobile. Considering the fact that Di-O-Matic had Face generator that could create high poly Character Faces for Film and Broadcast and low poly ones for games. Something has to be done for poly count to be limited between 5000 and 7000 polygons max.
Also it would be nice to have a CC for animals.
Also there should have been a dynamic hair creation and combing solution the type that exists in Blender using particles.
Also instead of only showing Character modification with ZBrush why not show it with Blender. And then again if Blender can have inbuilt sculpting tool set then why not CC 3. It would be a great idea to not have to spend on a 3rd party software.
Also in for the renderer I wanted the possibility of layers such as diffuse, shadow, normal, ambient occlusion etc. to be renderable separately so as to have better control in compositing.
Also the inbuilt Stereoscopic render workflow needs to be improved with each individual layer rendrable separately. I'd like to see some serious tutorials on it too.
Also the particle system could have a modular workflow where components could be chosen for each stage just like the Particle system in 3ds max.
And saving the best for the last : The cost difference in iContent and Export should be made Zero.
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By son.m - 7 Years Ago
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For me CC has always been a most wanted tool for iClone that could get some extra features and improvements (I want similar freedom I saw years ago in game char editors for my iClone chars..)
But now it sounds that reallusion focuses more on non-iClone users (who could use other 3D tools already) instead of their own customers.
I don't want to pay extra for CC 3 (and CC 3 content) even when I already paid for iClone 7 and use it only for iClone.
At a certain point it might be easier to create videos with true games & mods & programs like hitfilm or after effects (again) instead of using iClone, what would be really sad.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I think these are interesting developments. How useful it be for my own work remains to be seen. If I can now have a mirror, I would be happy.
I am in favor of adding render alternatives without having to rely on external 3D programs (LightWave, Maya, Blender), simply because of the hassle of exporting scenes. A direct plugin to external render is a better option. That didn't work very well with Indigo, but that was mainly because of the under-optimized way in which the export from iClone was implemented. In that regard I hope that the export to Iray is more efficient (or perhaps Iray is more tightly integrated).
@Guy, I looked at Brigade, and it seems that it is still under development? I was happy to find though that Brigade originated from a Dutchman...:P
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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@animagic
Yes it is still in development but it is supposed to be release this year with Octane v4.
It is currently being integrated with Unity:
Available Now: OctaneRender for Unity
Regarding iRay, according to the video, it seems it will be "integrated" into iClone rather than being presented as an external plugin to which we have to "export" special scene files.
-- update --
Or may be not, there is still a new window opening for rendering iRay, I though it would be like in Daz 3D, rendering into the iClone viewport. But lets wait for the official release to see the final integration..
Perhaps iRay will be a good surprise after all, faster than Indigo for sure. But I'm eager to see Brigade performances in Unity once officially released because if it is really realtime as promised, that will be awesome, but not for us..
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By midnight.stories.ltd - 7 Years Ago
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Only just saw this the weight map improvements are excellent, only thing I would suggest is looking at the sideways movement of the legs they tend to pull the groin too much giving bad distortion to clothes if you spit too much !
Also have you ever considered doing a DAZ version of the base figures it would make clothes a lot simpler. plus it's a free program and a lot easier to use than blender.
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By 4u2ges - 7 Years Ago
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Not sure if Iray would be faster than indigo, but if fully integrated saving a hassle to reassign and tweak materials and fixing lights (sort of taking iClone PBR rendering to a new level), plus being FREE... that would be an awesome addition.
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By Rampa - 7 Years Ago
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It is important to note that CC3 is a separate program. It is not suddenly going to replace CC2.
That said, I have seen every feature that CC3 offers requested in this forum. Especially the import and rigging of clothing in OBJ, and the decimation/remeshing options. These are extremely beneficial directly in iClone. Think of the crowd agent creation using CC characters instead of Anima characters, for one! Your crowds will actually look like they belong with the other characters stylistically. :)
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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So it's not going to replace CC2 -- in iClone, when you select "Edit in Character Creator", which version will it invoke? (Or perhaps that will be something you can set -- because I'd sure want it to invoke CC3, just as I'm sure others would prefer it only invokes CC2).
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By Pixtim - 7 Years Ago
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Very good things to come with CC3! We will still gain autonomy!
The GoZ function is a good thing, but I think there are a lot of developers who are on 3DCoat (including me :) ) ... It would be nice to have the same function with this software ...
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By Waterlane Studios - 7 Years Ago
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Interesting... Great to see the Base model and skinning updates - looking forward to these.
I'm unsure what animation 'editing' will be with CC though, compared to iClone.
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By Galfridus - 7 Years Ago
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Thanks so much for the 2018 road map info.
Lots of interesting strands with the obj skinning/ weigh painting / decimator functions top of my list.
Also very pleased to read:-
"Assets and garments already owned can be applied to this new generation base body, as it is completely backwards compatible".
Looking forward to further news / details of CC3 in due course.
Geoff.:)
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By Slayerazazel - 7 Years Ago
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For everyone trying to figure out if this is replacing CC or is an extra something we may need to purchase. The quoted section of the initial post below states, that users who continue to use CC for iClone will also benefit from CC3.
Now this does not really say much but i honestly doubt Reallusion are going to leave their loyal iClone customers in the dust. It does not make sense for them to release 2 different versions of CC compatible with IC7 at the same time. Double maintenance etc. But only RL know these answers.
Miranda (RL) (2/14/2018)
Users who continue to use CC for iClone will also benefit from the new generation of character bases that will be released with CC3. Assets and garments already owned can be applied to this new generation base body, as it is completely backwards compatible.
We wish to use the following post to share the roadmap ahead along with relevant technical breakthroughs. For sales related inquiries please wait further still for notices from Reallusion.
This is just my speculation and as stated above, we just need to wait for further announcements. But i am sure they will read through this thread and hopefully find ways to accommodate their loyal and already established iClone and CC customers.
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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OBJ import + Auto Skin + Skin Weight Editing
That sounds so great for me ,maybe RL could implement a Bone editing tool, too ? For e.g. adjusting Eyes and maybe an "adjust rigging to shape" function.
I hope it will come soon :cool:
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By Alolu - 7 Years Ago
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Really looking forward to the auto-skin/weight edit functions! :D:D:D
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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+1
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By alemar - 7 Years Ago
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WOW!!!! this is a dream! IClone and CC is better and better each day...is really a dream for me... my workflow is shorting every day and is arriving at the point that I always dream,,, sculpt my models and skinning and rigging very fast and ready to animate!!!oh my god I can't wait ! I'd like to see a way to "clothing" the faces with new ones using the original bones and expressions from CC base and generate new faces from new geometry... I don't know if you can understand...kkk thank you RL to continue developing this programs
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By Miranda (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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Hi everyone!!
Thanks for your comments! We read every of your messages carefully, and have started to evaluate the feasibility of some integrations. I would like to make a clarification about this CC standalone program. Our target is to make CC as an universal engine to feed any applications requiring 3D characters. We won't favor game developers, and abandon animator & movie makers. All the features added benefit at least two target audiences. For example, characters with polygon optimization and remeshing will be a good function for animations when there are a lot of characters in one scene. There will be scaler to adjust how many polygon counts you wish to reduce to, so 5,000 poly is achievable! It's a pity that we are not able to show you the user interface at this moment because it's still under development.
iClone users will get a free version of CC3, which supports all the functions of current CC, but with some function differences than the standalone version. We will find a time to announce it officially. :)
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By Miranda (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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Yes! There will be a bone editing tool, and auto rig function, which implies developers & artists are able to free sculpt the character without worrying about the compatibility issues because of body scale change.
vidi (2/18/2018)
OBJ import + Auto Skin + Skin Weight Editing
That sounds so great for me ,maybe RL could implement a Bone editing tool, too ? For e.g. adjusting Eyes and maybe an "adjust rigging to shape" function.
I hope it will come soon :cool:
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By wires - 7 Years Ago
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Thank you very much for the updated information Miranda. This whole thing is really looking to be a very positive improvement for all users. :cool::)
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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my developer heart beats higher
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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Miranda (RL) (2/22/2018)
iClone users will get a free version of CC3, which supports all the functions of current CC, but with some function differences than the standalone version. We will find a time to announce it officially.
That sounds great.
It seems like a good business plan for non-iClone users to be able to buy CC3, and us iCloners will certainly benefit from the improvements that will coincide with that plan. It is also understandable that there might be some CC3 features not relevant to iClone, similar to some 3DXchange export capabilities, so having differences there seems reasonable. It will be fun to learn more details, such as what those differences are, and what it would cost to get them if an iClone user wants them.
Please continue to pass along our THANKS to Reallusion management for allowing us to see these roadmaps. Very exciting.
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By Snarp Farkle - 7 Years Ago
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Will any of these changes make it possible to have realistic beards and mustaches that react to the figure's face expressions and speech?
In the face puppet we can select the different upper lip sections for posing, but we can't select them to attach a mustache to, just wondering. :ermm:
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By SeanMac - 7 Years Ago
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@Miranda.
Thanks for that.
You say that there will be GoZ button to transfer to ZBrush.
Does that also apply to ZBrush Core?
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By sonic7 - 7 Years Ago
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I was just about to purchase the DAZ Decimator ......
Does this mean I should wait?
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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There are a couple of things shown in the very first image on page 1 of this thread:
(1) "3D Scan"
I am wondering how this will play into our iClone universe. I can only imagine things, such a s more realistic looking characters, higher level scans being available, maybe some added standalone components for developers who have the technology to scan human skin, etc...And would this all benefit the CT8 to iClone workflow as well, with higher resolution model bases.
Sigh!....I can't wait for this!.....
(2) It shows Iray linked to the phrase "Still Art", which shows that iClone/CC is embracing joining, with the likes of Daz, as a Premiere character-focussed 2D art creation tool, in itself. This is great for those of us that have opportunities for 2D art production relationships involving still art.
(3) Daz inclusion - now, this isn't really stated here, but the recent RL video posted about Genesis 8 drops many hints at the pipeline involving more Daz elements (Kai says "Daz users rejoice")
I just want to say that I am so looking forward to this.
And that degree of inclusion may vary, I understand....
But holy cow my head goes wild imagining transposing things Daz into CC!!!! Sigh (again) ...also imagining props, backgrounds as well....Double sigh....and looking like in Daz with Iray....
As Super Mario would say, "Mama Mia!"
* I asked somewhere in the past, but would love to see the makeup functionality of Face Filter brought into this some how....
I would love to have characters in a scene applying makeup, or a sequence of images of them getting their makeup done. And it could be done by me, in the Face Filter way, much like a real makeup artist would do.
And put it ion iPad so I can paint it...(And yes I know I can do this already in Photoshop, but It's not necessarily tailored as a makeup tool, you know?)
Or them getting their hair done, too. (Hair Filter?....)
It's not a pity it is still in development, it is absolutely 100% GREAT...
I want the standalone version. :w00t::w00t::w00t:
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Tony's mention of one thing is interesting to me, as I think I also want the standalone version. Will it be more capable than the one we get for free? Almost certainly. Will it cost us iClone users more? (Even if we have such things as XChange Pipeline). Almost certainly as well.
Let's just hope RL will at least give us a decent break on the price, though. We are captive customers -- CC3 looks almost essential in the way that XChange is/was. I'm hoping for a BIG discount for those of us who realize the free version just won't be enough.
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By Rogue Anime - 7 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (2/24/2018)
Will it be more capable than the one we get for free? Will it cost us iClone users more? Almost certainly. Let's just hope RL will at least give us a decent break on the price, though. We are captive customers -- CC3 looks almost essential in the way that XChange is/was. I'm hoping for a BIG discount for those of us who realize the free version just won't be enough.
These were my concerns as well, Mike. My first thought was, 'Wow - this looks PRICEY' but then I saw the post on how it would be 'free' to we CC2 buyers, but with 'limited capabilities' - then I got to thinking the same way? What if we want the full version, but it's priced out-of-the-ballpark? There was no hint of pricing, and no hint of a pricing structure for those of us who will most likely want the full version.
SUSPICIOUS? COULD IT BE, the 'free version' is to stifle those who would complain about having to BUY it, whilst @ the same time BAITING them to buy the FULL version... Thoughts? A veritable conundrum... :unsure: ~V~
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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@Miranda - Will the wonderful "body updates" also include improvements to the collision shapes?
See my Feedback Tracker Issue #608about HAIR and COLLISION SHAPES.
https://www.reallusion.com/FeedBackTracker/Issue/Collision-Shapes-G6-CC-very-bad-for-long-when-when-character-bends-forward
The recent video posted in this thread (at the 0:06 mark) reminded me of it.
https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost357927.aspx
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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For a bit of fun, I tried rendering KelleyToon's Drive-In project.
It took 10 minutes to export 1,310 texture files, consuming 5.62 GB of disk space.
Shall I repeat (for the 50th time) my rant about exporting all that data, 99% of which doesn't change, for every frame? Gaaahhh!
It used up nearly all my 16GB of system RAM when running on the CPU.
I got an error trying to use GPU rendering on this file (but a smaller file worked okay). I have not really tried to isolate the cause of the error, and don't know if I will.
I made zero lighting or material adjustments.
From iClone - "Preview" - After a couple seconds...
From Indigo - After 750 samples and about 9 minutes...
 x
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By JIX - 7 Years Ago
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Miranda (RL) (22.02.2018)
Yes! There will be a bone editing tool, and auto rig function, which implies developers & artists are able to free sculpt the character without worrying about the compatibility issues because of body scale change. vidi (2/18/2018)
OBJ import + Auto Skin + Skin Weight Editing
That sounds so great for me ,maybe RL could implement a Bone editing tool, too ? For e.g. adjusting Eyes and maybe an "adjust rigging to shape" function.
I hope it will come soon :cool:
At this point it must be said that I´m gobsmacked!
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By sjonesdc - 7 Years Ago
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With all the new and upcoming updates, iClone has forced me to go back to school!! Which isn't a back thing :w00t:
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By SpiderTec - 7 Years Ago
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Multi-limb aliens, insects, and animals and multi-headed creatures can be avatars too.. A 3d bone editable insertion tool with a "classification type" would be a very nice feature to add. (would save a lot of time key-framing and messing with duplicate model opacity channels)
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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Actually, the only downside to all this fantastic news, for me, is that I almost feel like I don't want to work on anything character-wise.
Because it will be sub-par to what is possible in the near future, to the point where I will then feel I need to re-do it later. So why bother, just makes more sense to wait and do it later...
Anybody else kind of feel this way?
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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 7 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (2/26/2018)
Actually, the only downside to all this fantastic news, for me, is that I almost feel like I don't want to work on anything character-wise.
Because it will be sub-par to what is possible in the near future, to the point where I will then feel I need to re-do it later. So why bother, just makes more sense to wait and do it later...
Anybody else kind of feel this way?
Reallusion is specialized at making you feel this way. I started to feel this way 10 years ago.. Meanwhile you do nothing. So at some point you have to decide to do something, no matter what ;)
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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What it does for me, Tony, is shift focus. For now, the things I had planned with characters and clothing from Daz will take a backseat. Which is okay, because there is plenty of other things to do with iClone that don't involve CC.
So I'll work on my sets, on my Faceware stuff, on my mocap... lots and LOTS of stuff to do and when CC3 arrives I'll have plenty of time for just it and nothing else (because all the other things will be done. Yeah, right -- I believe that).
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mentioning of face-creating from a photo. It would be odd to have a stand-alone product and still having to rely on face-creation using CrazyTalk. This would be an opportunity to make good of the promise of a face-creation tool independent of CT.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (2/27/2018)
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mentioning of face-creating from a photo. It would be odd to have a stand-alone product and still having to rely on face-creation using CrazyTalk. This would be an opportunity to make good of the promise of a face-creation tool independent of CT.
+1
(x5 ;) )
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By Snarp Farkle - 7 Years Ago
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Still wondering if any of these changes make it possible to have realistic beards and mustaches that react to the figure's face expressions and speech, no one commented on my earlier post so I'm asking again! :)
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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@Kelleytoons and Grabiller-
Thanks for offering the wisdom with your comments.
I see what you are saying, it is our own roadmap we must follow, not anything dictated by some outside circumstance going on. And with that, prioritize steps that allow you to forward your project so that it integrates well when a change happens, or an opportunity becomes available.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Yeah, I'm not saying, necessarily, that it hasn't caused me to change my plans, only that my plans aren't so rigid that's a huge problem.
Part of that comes from working in the industry. If there's one thing you learn, it's that you NEVER use new software for a critical project. Which means you're always at least a version or two behind the times. So while you can look ahead and plan, you aren't ever relying upon something that isn't tried and true. We have, with 7.1 and PBR, and Faceware and mocap and GI and Popcorn some of the most amazing tools needed to do a ton of things. That we can't do all we might want isn't necessarily a Bad Thing. As we learn to use all we have, we will then be in a much better position to use the new stuff, rather than just be all overwhelmed at the same time.
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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Thinking more and more and more about the Daz possibilities!
I went and took another look at the videos at the beginning of this thread dealing with the conforming body shapes and clothing, and I think I see what is going to come.
That is, with the Daz clothing, it will be like any clothing coming in, we are going to be the ones conforming it to the character. We will have the ability to weight adjust it, and then from there it could respond to the CC morphs.
(Thinking it will not be an automatic process of converting the weight). Then, if the morphs themselves come over from Daz (maybe will this be through some interaction with Go-Z?...), you could in turn have a theoretical Daz clothing to Daz morph relationship going on in CC.
What would be lovely is if somehow the Iray-MDL materials could 'one-click' transfer over to the Iray plugin for iClone. Currently, as discussed in the Daz forums, there is no way to get an 'MDL package' (with all the settings and layout of texture maps as intended by the developer of the material) from Daz to an external application, in an automatic way. Which leads me to wonder, if any of the other material lighting functionalities, available in Daz Iray, could make their way over to Clone, i.e. in an iClonic-way? Don't know how far RL would allow outside developers to enter into the iClone-Iray interface But, this is something that Indigo did not have, outside development for texture or lighting packages in the renderer. Iray does have this, albeit in the Daz iteration.
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By mr_vidius - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (2/27/2018)
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mentioning of face-creating from a photo. It would be odd to have a stand-alone product and still having to rely on face-creation using CrazyTalk. This would be an opportunity to make good of the promise of a face-creation tool independent of CT.
well first of all.. i really don't understand the logic. and i'm pissed of about it. why was it not a part of character creator in the first place? I mean, come on here.. your creating characters right?
is not face creation a big part of that? NOOOOO. somebody decided that you should have to use crazytalk for that. but, here is the catch! you need to buy the pipeline in order to use it. forgive me for saying this.. but, what a screw job! so that puts me into a position, of having to either spend days trying to make the face in CC from the sliders.. or.. having to pay a content developer to make the face for me. well so much for all that good workflow. why don't somebody just put my family jewels in a vise and squeeze. then again, of course.. i have heard: "just buy the pipeline, and be done with it". oh yeah.. sure. i'll just pull the money, right out of my backside. or maybe get a third job. just for that. when you used to be able to create faces for free! why would i need to buy the pipeline just for using it in iclone anyway? I have no interest in using unity, or unreal, or any other product that i would need the pipeline for. i'm content with using iclone.
i don't know why i'm even saying anything here.. all i hear is blah, blah, blah.. well good luck to you guys trying to get any facial creation in CC3. i really don't think RL will do it.
vidius
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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Looking at the roadmap again!
And it made me wonder, which quarter are we in now....?
I know everyone operates their calendar differently - seasonal, economic-fiscal, biologic, etc.
But, are we in the 2nd yet? Because it already feels like we are...
I mean, we basically are, right?
I look outside and it feels like we're in the 2nd part of the year already, it is going so fast....
So..Umm....
Can we have Iray today?
PLEEEASE?!!!! :w00t:
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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No, unless you are talking something like the government, all companies operate on a yearly basis (so we are still in first quarter -- second will extend to June, so patience, grasshopper).
( I could care less for Iray but I sure want CC3 -- not until the end of the year, I suspect).
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By Delerna - 7 Years Ago
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Looking forward to these improvements. Holding back creating any new CC clothing, hair etc until I get CC3. Don't want to recreate stuff that I have sold that can be improved with the new version.
I feel for Reallusion staff and am willing to state that I highly appreciate their continuous efforts of improving this software. As a developer myself I understand what happens and because of your efforts I see that you have high desire at working hard to satisfy us. Yes, your doing it to make money and that is important but as said, I see your desire to please your customers as much as possible. Hoping to take part in Beta testing ?????????????
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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A lot of "business" is run on a "fiscal calendar" which always seemed odd to me. A lot of them start 1 quarter early, so first quater of FY19 actually stars Oct 1, 2018. I've sort of gotten used to that, but your fiscal calendar year can start any time.
Can be very confusing, because in meetings it can be hard to know if they are talking fiscal year or calendar year.
HOWEVER... since we are not talking to the CEO or the financial community, I am pretty confident the roadmaps all refer to "Calendar Year 18."
Of course, if they miss their "plans" enough, it won't matter if it's FY18 or CY18. ;)
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By TheOldBuffer - 7 Years Ago
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Snarp Farkle (2/27/2018)
Still wondering if any of these changes make it possible to have realistic beards and mustaches that react to the figure's face expressions and speech, no one commented on my earlier post so I'm asking again! :)
+1. This would be great, keeping my fingers crossed.
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By AasmundSchei - 7 Years Ago
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I got superhyped when I saw the iRay feature. Daz3D comes with iRay for free. Will iClone and CharacterCreators get iRay for free when it comes to Reallusion too?
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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Back Scattering and Dual Lobe Specular channels.
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By Mr_Squarepeg - 7 Years Ago
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Hey RL
Looks like some one made a post on the UE4 forums about the upcoming Character Creator 3. People are interested from the looks of it. Please keep us UE4 users informed as well :)
https://forums.unrealengine.com/development-discussion/animation/1453831-reallusion-s-upcoming-character-creator-3
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By Rottadamic - 7 Years Ago
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If you import or open a cc2 character in a standalone cc3, will that character be Next Generation Character Base?, ore do we need to build that character from scratch?
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By Miranda (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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No need to build from the scratch, it's convertible! :)
info_05_81 (4/11/2018)
If you import or open a cc2 character in a standalone cc3, will that character be Next Generation Character Base?, ore do we need to build that character from scratch?
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By Miranda (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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Wow, we didn't notice that! Thanks for sharing :)
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By benweekes73 - 7 Years Ago
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Are these changes likely to make it possible to get close to this kind of facial expression quality:
https://youtu.be/Vo_FALeUc8c
Thanks
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By SeanMac - 7 Years Ago
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Hi Ben
Thanks for the headsup. It was interesting though suspiciously shrouded in murky twilight.
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By yoyomaster - 7 Years Ago
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Some cool stuff coming to CC3, but also a lot of uncertainty, as per usual with RL, so I will stick to DAZ genesis 8 characters for the time being, especially with the new Genesis integration stuff that came out with 7.2! :)
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By Ascensi - 7 Years Ago
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I hope CC 3 has an option to import photo references so we can match a character to existing 3D characters that have no body/facial rig/bones then match them even more in zbrush - just to avoid destroying pushing polys past bones and such that may mess up the ability for precision animation.
Also the photo to face feature I feel needs more refinement.. more nodes that can be manipulated to get exact shapes. It seems like the system has a lot of guess work/estimation since if you do manage to line up the nodes on both the front view and the side to the front and side photos the image doesn't fit correctly. I use photoshop guides to mark the alignment from the bottom ears and the top of both photos put side by side, and pupils, chin and brows and when they match the same size etc then I save both corrected photos to import in CTA but I have not got identical results following official instructions/tuts and the official tutorials don't go into making the same likeness of the photos.. it's usually about real looking variations.
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By yoyomaster - 7 Years Ago
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I cant find any time stamp on that roadmap, could you give us an approximation of the date CC 3 will come out?
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By R Ham - 7 Years Ago
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yoyomaster (4/20/2018)
Some cool stuff coming to CC3, but also a lot of uncertainty, as per usual with RL, so I will stick to DAZ genesis 8 characters for the time being, especially with the new Genesis integration stuff that came out with 7.2! :)
The jaw still doesn't work.
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By TheOldBuffer - 7 Years Ago
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Rottenham (5/2/2018)
yoyomaster (4/20/2018)
Some cool stuff coming to CC3, but also a lot of uncertainty, as per usual with RL, so I will stick to DAZ genesis 8 characters for the time being, especially with the new Genesis integration stuff that came out with 7.2! :)The jaw still doesn't work.
Are you using the newest V4 duf files? It takes seconds to map the jaw bone so it shouldn't be a problem.
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By R Ham - 7 Years Ago
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TheOldBuffer (5/2/2018)
Are you using the newest V4 duf files? It takes seconds to map the jaw bone so it shouldn't be a problem.
I load the G8 male. I apply the G8 face key DUF file. I export the FBX. I bring it into 3DXChange. I test the expressions. Still, after all this time, the jaw doesn't work. I see people here saying "Well, the import process is 100% now!" Is it?
I installed IC7 a month or two ago. I use the face key files that came with it. If they have changed in the past 8 or 10 weeks, then no, I'm not using the latest file. Have they changed?
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By R Ham - 7 Years Ago
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yoyomaster (4/20/2018)
Some cool stuff coming to CC3, but also a lot of uncertainty, as per usual with RL, so I will stick to DAZ genesis 8 characters for the time being, especially with the new Genesis integration stuff that came out with 7.2! :)
Yes. If CC3 can manage to import and retarget DS clothing cleanly, that would be, as they say, huge. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Rottenham (5/2/2018)[hr
I installed IC7 a month or two ago. I use the face key files that came with it. If they have changed in the past 8 or 10 weeks, then no, I'm not using the latest file. Have they changed?
Yes, as noted several times on this forum, the DUF files changed with 7.21 (so in the last three or so weeks). You need to be using the latest.
The G8 male works fine, as does the G8 female. There are *some* exceptions, but not in the face (some folks have issues with feet on some characters, and some anime or special Daz characters do not work, but so far about 98% of them do).
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By R Ham - 7 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (5/2/2018)
[quote]
Yes, as noted several times on this forum, the DUF files changed with 7.21 (so in the last three or so weeks). You need to be using the latest.
I swore I had given up, but on your say I'm going to seek these face key files and if the date on them is fresher than what I have now, give them a try. Film at 11.
..................................
Brand new facekey.duf file. 10 days newer than the one I had. No jaw control. Most of the visemes were missing. Personally I wouldn't call this an export/import. I think I know how to finagle it into working, maybe some other time I'll try. Not today. Thanks for the heads up.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Can't speak for what dates are there, but I do know that I had tried with what I had through were the latest and was told (and found out) they had updated things.
I promise you it will work -- if you can't get it working write me a PM and we can see what's going on (if *I* can get it working -- me who has zero interest in actually using a Daz character inside of iClone except as an aide to others -- anyone can :>).
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By R Ham - 7 Years Ago
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Thanks for the offer of help, but I just can't deal with debugging this thing anymore.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Okay, but you shouldn't have any issues with the updates (truly, they've made the process so easy and straightforward even my grandkids could do it now).
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By R Ham - 7 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (5/2/2018)
Okay, but you shouldn't have any issues with the updates (truly, they've made the process so easy and straightforward even my grandkids could do it now).
Well, after a cruel and inhumanly long time, and partially due to your comments, I got it to work. It works fine now. It will take a day or two to sink in that I actually have this freedom. Here's what I was doing wrong.
- I keep my DAZ content files on a network drive. Aside from this particular task, it's never caused a problem for me. But. There are certain files, those morph files associated with G8, that DAZ will only read from the local drive. Who knew?
- You have to check the "include morphs" box in the DAZ FBX export dialog now.
I'll do some experimenting before I decide whether or not to make use of this new ability. I have to say, 3DX is doing a nice job of converting over the skin these days.
Thanks.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Glad you got it working.
As I said, I couldn't care less about this ability except from an intellectual standpoint, but it's nice it works for others to use.
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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because Autodesk has my montly subscription payment cashed twice and I had so many troubel to get my money back, I have canceled the Maya LT subcription . I hope we get this new Developer CC very soon :), because Blender is not a Option for me.
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By 4u2ges - 7 Years Ago
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I wish for the new CC to have a new breed of characters, which would have better mesh quality and ability to custom weight map the body. Current characters mesh is plain terrible.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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A more-tightly integrated "cloth-making for dummies" option would be nice too...:unsure: And a hair maker! :w00t:
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By SeanMac - 7 Years Ago
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@animagic
I suggest that you meant 'clothes-making' and, yeah, hair making.
Marvellous Designer (MD) for one and Houdini (SideFX.com) for the other but both are expensive and have steep learning curves.(Houdini has a lower-resolution free version rather awkward to use.)
You might add on a crowd-simulator to supply extras, but the existing ones that I have seen - like 3DS Max and Anima from AXYZ Design - produce at the moment only atomistic crowds where every individual is by themselves. This is not characteristic of any real crowd, Real crowds are in ones, twos and threes of differing ages and genders with some disabled, families, couples, children etc.
My issue is that all of the samples and clips I have seen in both clothes and hair emphasise - to the exclusion of all other periods in history - the present.
It is as if nothing happened before the World-Wide Web! This is the fallacy of presentism. cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis).
Clothes and hair give you an instant bit of set dressing for your movie scene that tells you what period you are in and what geographical area you are in. There is no other way to get this instant hit.
But I would suggest that most movie-makers do not want to be all the professions that get name-checked on the screen credits at the end of a movie. If you want Italian Renaissance clothing or 18th century European breeches and wigs you probably do not want to get into the degree of detail that MD requires. If you want 19th century luxuriant facial hair you probably do not want to get it just right for every single different face in your scene. The legendary EZ key may not be available but a marketplace surely could come into existence assuming sufficient demand. Even if it called for premium pricing for conforming clothes and hair of a given period.
Home Built in Coolermaster ATX case with GigabyteGA-Z170X-GAMING 7 MoBo, i7-6700 @ 3.4 Ghz, Asus GeForce GTX 1080 Ti GraphicsCard, 32Gb DDR4 RAM, an Acer CB241HQK & a Samsung S24D300 monitor, Huion H610Pro Graphics Tablet, Kinect v2, Logitech C920 Webcam, Win 10 64 Bit OS
demand.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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I assume when you say (hint) that Houdini would be useful for hair you mean IF somehow iClone supported that -- which it does not (at least not in the way you can currently use Marvelous Designer for clothes and import into CC/iClone). At the moment the only tool I know of for actually creating polygonal hair (the only hair supported by CC) is the Blender Hair addon that I'm using -- and I admit while it works nicely it's not anything that couldn't be improved (although the designer is constantly working on it).
And I agree with you that Anima is lacking in many aspects -- the fact that it was specifically designed for architectural walk-throughs really hurts it in this regard. I have it, and while I find it useful at times it's not exactly what I would have hoped for. I'm still holding out a *bit* of hope that eventually Python for iClone will allow us to create our own such processes, but since they've already said the first pass will be very limited I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see it come to fruition.
I know you spoke of period clothes and hair from a long-term standpoint, but I'd argue that even things only a few years removed aren't supported well. Trying to do something from the 50's, for example, is a real PITA (I've finally been able to get the look but only by importing a whole lot of Daz clothing and hair). I'm not sure where to point any fingers of blame, though, because the market is driven by need, and pretty obviously not a lot of folks are interested in much beyond now and the future.
However, careful combing of the Daz and Renderosity catalogs can turn up a lot of period stuff, all the way back to cavemen times, so if you are patient and work with it, it can be done. While it will be (I assume) easier with CC3, there's no reason you have to wait -- it takes only minutes to import any of this stuff (clothing or hair) into CC now.
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By R Ham - 7 Years Ago
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Ha! So this arrogant conceit, from which so many suffer daily, now has a name! I expect it will soon have an acronym of its own.
Thank you.
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By illusionLAB - 7 Years Ago
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I hope the road map takes us to "more realistic textures city" - right now they look too hand painted... I managed to re-texture a CC model with DAZ image maps and the CC character looked far better (but too much work to make a habit of it). Also, a rethink on texture map optimization would be useful too... surely a entire 'nude' character could be on one set of texture maps/opacity/roughness etc. At the very least, make the "head map" include the neck and collar bones area to get rid of the resolution drop between the face and neck line.
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By R Ham - 7 Years Ago
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-
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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illusionLAB (5/8/2018)
I hope the road map takes us to "more realistic textures city" - right now they look too hand painted... I managed to re-texture a CC model with DAZ image maps and the CC character looked far better (but too much work to make a habit of it). Also, a rethink on texture map optimization would be useful too... surely a entire 'nude' character could be on one set of texture maps/opacity/roughness etc. At the very least, make the "head map" include the neck and collar bones area to get rid of the resolution drop between the face and neck line.
Hmmm....I like your first part about the realistic texture itself very much!...
However the second part, with the neck and collar bone, I myself would not be a fan of that outright, where in all situations a character's head map would also be connected to neck and collar map.
BUT - what you are touching on is fascinating! Maybe you could have an option to have a uni vs multi texture character? And you could, as creator, set the dividing point of that texture sequence?
So, when completed, you could have a head mat, a neck mat, a torso/arms mat, and then a leg mat (total 4), to preserve detail. Or you could have one mat (total 1), to preserve functionality.
(With the 2 we currently see, think RL was trying to balance detail vs usability...but what if WE could decide!)
**RL - How about if in CC3 you could start off with a new texture mapper function where
(a) at beginning, you could splice it up into as many mats as you want (with a 'divider' of some sort, both horizontal and vertical)...and then, after crafting your avatar also
(b) have the power to merge textures into one mat before export, as an option, thereby reducing the file size of that avatar!
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I'm also not in favor of a single map, although I agree that the blending between head and neck could be better. The default maps are just that, but the maps from the 100 Heads collection or those made with CT8 are much better. I just wished larger part would be devoted to the front of the face to improve resolution/details.
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By kenshinw95 - 7 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (2/26/2018)
Actually, the only downside to all this fantastic news, for me, is that I almost feel like I don't want to work on anything character-wise.
Because it will be sub-par to what is possible in the near future, to the point where I will then feel I need to re-do it later. So why bother, just makes more sense to wait and do it later...
Anybody else kind of feel this way?
That's EXACTLY how I feel right now! I was in the middle of creating new characters, remaking older ones, and creating new clothing/accessories for said characters. Then I recently seen the C.C.3 - W.I.P. #1 video on YouTube. The new, improved quad-based base mesh is quite welcome since it's closer to what I do in Blender. Yet, it also makes me feel like I should hold off on making new/remastered human characters since I'll just have to remake them in C.C.3 like you stated. Since, the old ones I doubt would be converted to use the the new edge loop, and glitches in animation they have fixed in the new base mesh.
That feeling of futility was driven deeper by seeing the "OBJ import/Auto-Skinning" feature. Especially considering the number of hurdles I've stumbled over, and hoops I've attempted to jump through trying to get the new clothing/accessories successfully imported into C.C.2 from Blender. I think the accessories can still be exported, and attached/linked to the various places on ANY model, but the clothes... I'll probably just export out the clothes as OBJ files in preparation for use in C.C.3 though. Maybe the wait will give me time to perfect PBR texturing.
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By kenshinw95 - 7 Years Ago
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Miranda (RL) (4/11/2018)
No need to build from the scratch, it's convertible! :) info_05_81 (4/11/2018)
If you import or open a cc2 character in a standalone cc3, will that character be Next Generation Character Base?, ore do we need to build that character from scratch?
So, the characters made in C.C.2 have the option to be converted to use the the new edge loop, and glitches in animation they have fixed in the new base mesh. Without any loss of morph shape, or detail? Simply put, will the converted C.C.2 characters will look like the same, and not have to do the morphs/details over again?
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By Miranda (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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kenshinw95 (5/27/2018)
So, the characters made in C.C.2 have the option to be converted to use the the new edge loop, and glitches in animation they have fixed in the new base mesh. Without any loss of morph shape, or detail? Simply put, will the converted C.C.2 characters will look like the same, and not have to do the morphs/details over again?
Yes, the settings including morph data will be kept as the original.
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By Mr_Squarepeg - 7 Years Ago
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Miranda (RL) (5/28/2018)
kenshinw95 (5/27/2018)
So, the characters made in C.C.2 have the option to be converted to use the the new edge loop, and glitches in animation they have fixed in the new base mesh. Without any loss of morph shape, or detail? Simply put, will the converted C.C.2 characters will look like the same, and not have to do the morphs/details over again?
Yes, the settings including morph data will be kept as the original.
Hey got a question - Will we be able to pre order soon and will CC3 work with Crazy Talk 8?
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By kenshinw95 - 7 Years Ago
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Miranda (RL) (5/28/2018)
kenshinw95 (5/27/2018)
So, the characters made in C.C.2 have the option to be converted to use the the new edge loop, and glitches in animation they have fixed in the new base mesh. Without any loss of morph shape, or detail? Simply put, will the converted C.C.2 characters will look like the same, and not have to do the morphs/details over again?
Yes, the settings including morph data will be kept as the original.
Yay! So, I can continue with updating old, and making new characters without having to worry about having to do it all over again in version 3.
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By skunkwerk - 7 Years Ago
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Python scripting would be awesome in CC 3
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By Peter (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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HeadClot (5/28/2018)
Hey got a question - Will we be able to pre order soon and will CC3 work with Crazy Talk 8?
The new CC3 base characters are not compatible with RLHeads from CrazyTalk 8 but you can still use older CC2 characters with RLHeads.
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By wires - 7 Years Ago
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Peter (RL) (6/5/2018)
HeadClot (5/28/2018)
Hey got a question - Will we be able to pre order soon and will CC3 work with Crazy Talk 8?The new CC3 base characters are not compatible with RLHeads from CrazyTalk 8 but you can still use older CC2 characters with RLHeads.
Does this also mean that the Realistic Human 100 head pack won't work?
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By LPmoviestvs - 7 Years Ago
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so peter that mean crazy talk 9 well work with cc 3
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By Postfrosch - 7 Years Ago
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Does this also mean that the Realistic Human 100 head pack won't work?
Hi Gerry
That's probably the case. (at least it reads like this) CC 3 avatars can (probably) no other heads be put on. This will probably work only through the morphslider or external morph programs. I also start to doubt if the Essentiel sliders of the CC 1.5 - 2.3 will work at all. (just a gut feeling - I do not know)
I'm almost afraid you have to set up here for more additional purchases, or stay with CC2. Whether IC 7 (there will be an update here, too) but the CC 2 is still synonymous, is not fully clarified.
CC3 is not that desirable for me at the moment - unfortunately:crying:
I'll wait for more news from Peter. :alien:
Actually, I was so determined to get involved in a possibly early-bird appointment for the CC 3. Now I'll wait and see what the CC 3 really does for me personally :sick:
Greets from Germany
Postfrosch
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By Postfrosch - 7 Years Ago
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so peter that mean crazy talk 9 well work with cc 3
I bet my head, which will follow a Ct 9 pipeline.There will be new additional costs - unfortunately
Or we dispense with personalized heads, buy and learn ZBrush and Co
to do something (I'm too old for that) :Whistling:
Greets from Germany
Postfrosch
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By will2power71 - 7 Years Ago
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I have seen the promo video and I like the direction you Reallusion is going in. Improvements to the characters have always been more important to me than the other stuff. There are a couple of things I would like to suggest. I'm not sure if anyone else has done so already --there's 13 pages of this post at the time I'm writing this. Could you please include somewhere in the roadmap, the addition of anatomically correct models or an official way to make them so? I don't mind if they are an option you have to purchase but I would really like to see that. The second thing is that I hope that you include in these more advanced figures, the ability to add and manipulate a joint corrective morph. A lot of times when you're changing the figures in Zbrush you might end up with a bend that isn't quite right because of the morphed geometry. Adding the ability to correct the morph with a JCM is something I would really like to see going forward. Having a great looking mesh is ruined if it doesn't bend properly. I would even go so far as to say that Joint Corrective Morphs should be universally supported with any figure.
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By mr_vidius - 7 Years Ago
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wires (6/5/2018)
Peter (RL) (6/5/2018)
HeadClot (5/28/2018)
Hey got a question - Will we be able to pre order soon and will CC3 work with Crazy Talk 8?The new CC3 base characters are not compatible with RLHeads from CrazyTalk 8 but you can still use older CC2 characters with RLHeads. Does this also mean that the Realistic Human 100 head pack won't work?
Here is a quote from Miranda :
"In the first version of CC3, CC3 characters are not compatible with RLHeads from CrazyTalk 8, however, users can apply RLHeads on CC1 base in CC3 first, and then click a button to convert CC1 base to CC3 base. The conversion result of this workaround is good. We will make CC3 characters compatible with RLHeads in later version."
hope that helps.. although another good question is.. will CC3 work with iclone 8? now watch.. there will be a announcement around August of a iclone 8 WIP. and goodies, and fixes for 7 will be forgotten about.. because everyone in this forum will be drooling over IC8. and some new and amazing feature. now before you poo poo this. this is a very common drama that happens in this forum. it repeats itself over, and over again. and when IC8 has a ball drop.. and does not meet the expectations of the forum zombies.. then, and only then.. we will repeat the cycle full circle. :smooooth:
only kidding kiddies,
vidius
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By mr_vidius - 7 Years Ago
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Postfrosch (6/5/2018)
so peter that mean crazy talk 9 well work with cc 3
I bet my head, which will follow a Ct 9 pipeline.There will be new additional costs - unfortunately
Or we dispense with personalized heads, buy and learn ZBrush and Co
to do something (I'm too old for that) :Whistling:
Greets from Germany
Postfrosch
my dear friend. this is the very problem that exists in this forum. the focus has become getting things like CC characters to work with other 3rd party programs, that RL has got very lazy!
in order to satisfy the demands of the forum Gods. RL will for go the ever so simple concept of being able to make personalized faces in CC in favor of using other programs like ZBrush .
this effort screws the rest of us in favor of the "pipeline sell". now listen.. to be able to use RL content in other programs for customization, is a wonderful Idea. but let us also get the simple shit like personal face in CC too! not all of us can afford pipelines! and if this route to screwing keeps going.. I will be let with no choice than stop purchasing any content from the content store, or market place for at least 8 months. so my favorite content developers, who I buy from all the time.. will suffer the pain. and starve. and it's all because of the forum Gods and their selfish needs. :D
:D
now, I know I'm not a forum God. so I guess I should keep my mouth shut. and be thankful that I won't get punished. or thankful that things are what they are. and like I was told not too long ago by a forum God.. "just shut up and buy the pipeline.. we don't care what you say. we are professionals." :Whistling: well alrighty then.. :doze:
vidius.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I don't have Z-brush, and I personally would like to be able to create faces within CC3. I just haven't gotten a straight answer yet whether that's possible or not...:crying: I guess we just have to keep asking...:unsure:
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (6/18/2018)
I don't have Z-brush, and I personally would like to be able to create faces within CC3. I just haven't gotten a straight answer yet whether that's possible or not...:crying: I guess we just have to keep asking...:unsure:
I, too, would like a simple answer to that simple question.
Speaking of faces...
The need for CrazyTalk 8 to create iClone faces from photos was supposed to be a temporary solution. It's been temporary for a very long time.
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By Peter (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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wires (6/5/2018)
Does this also mean that the Realistic Human 100 head pack won't work?
The Realistic Human 100 head pack will work if you follow the same workflow as for CT8 heads. That is apply the head to an older CC base character, then click to convert to a CC3 character.
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By Peter (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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lp_movies/tvs (6/5/2018)
so peter that mean crazy talk 9 well work with cc 3
CrazyTalk 9... Do you know something I don't?
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By Peter (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (6/18/2018)
I don't have Z-brush, and I personally would like to be able to create faces within CC3. I just haven't gotten a straight answer yet whether that's possible or not...:crying: I guess we just have to keep asking...:unsure:
You will of course be able to create custom faces using the built in features of CC3 just as you can with CC2. The use of external software like ZBrush is always optional, not essential. Remember there is still a lot to reveal about CC3 so please hang in there. All will be revealed in time. :)
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By LPmoviestvs - 7 Years Ago
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lol peter just was thinking that would be the next step if you cant use crazy talk8 heads on cc3
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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Peter (RL) (6/18/2018)
animagic (6/18/2018)
I don't have Z-brush, and I personally would like to be able to create faces within CC3. I just haven't gotten a straight answer yet whether that's possible or not...:crying: I guess we just have to keep asking...:unsure: You will of course be able to create custom faces using the built in features of CC3 just as you can with CC2. The use of external software like ZBrush is always optional, not essential. Remember there is still a lot to reveal about CC3 so please hang in there. All will be revealed in time. :)
Peter, what I am trying to get an answer to is if there would still be a need for an external program like CT to create custom faces from photos for use in CC3. It would be a disappointment if that were the case, especially for the paid CC3 version. Like Viking said, at the time the use of CT was to be a temporary solution with a separate head creator being planned at some time in the future.
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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I personally would like to be able to create faces within CC3
Do you not have CT Pipeline ?
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By Mr_Squarepeg - 7 Years Ago
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Peter (RL) (6/18/2018)
animagic (6/18/2018)
I don't have Z-brush, and I personally would like to be able to create faces within CC3. I just haven't gotten a straight answer yet whether that's possible or not...:crying: I guess we just have to keep asking...:unsure: You will of course be able to create custom faces using the built in features of CC3 just as you can with CC2. The use of external software like ZBrush is always optional, not essential. Remember there is still a lot to reveal about CC3 so please hang in there. All will be revealed in time. :)
Willing to wait to hear more :)
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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vidi (6/18/2018)
I personally would like to be able to create faces within CC3
Do you not have CT Pipeline ?
I do, but from what I understand those heads are not compatible with CC3. I also would find it more convenient to have it in CC3 with PBR shaders (which CT doesn't have).
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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Will CC3 be able to produce high quality meshes (not maps, I know 4K is supported), of the likes of 3Lateral's "AndySerkis and Alien" and Cubic Motion's "Siren"?
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By 4u2ges - 7 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (6/18/2018)
Will CC3 be able to produce high quality meshes (not maps, I know 4K is supported), of the likes of 3Lateral's "AndySerkis and Alien" and Cubic Motion's "Siren"?
They mentioned base character mesh optimization (structured quad mesh, edge loops, general shapes improvement,... etc). But back to 4K maps. It would not match DAZ Genesis if character's UV structure would be retained as current one - i.e. 2 maps - head and body. Genesis featuring separate 4K maps for torso, legs, hands.. etc. Meaning CC3 characters would be approximately half as real as DAZ Genesis. It is 1/4 now with CC2
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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4u2ges (6/19/2018)
TonyDPrime (6/18/2018)
Will CC3 be able to produce high quality meshes (not maps, I know 4K is supported), of the likes of 3Lateral's "AndySerkis and Alien" and Cubic Motion's "Siren"?
They mentioned base character mesh optimization (structured quad mesh, edge loops, general shapes improvement,... etc). But back to 4K maps. It would not match DAZ Genesis if character's UV structure would be retained as current one - i.e. 2 maps - head and body. Genesis featuring separate 4K maps for torso, legs, hands.. etc. Meaning CC3 characters would be approximately half as real as DAZ Genesis. It is 1/4 now with CC2
Isn't there a diminished return at some point?
I guess I'm confused, because on the one hand there would be a need for optimizing textures for game character purposes, and, as has been pointed out here, characters rendered in Unity and Unreal can look quite good to excellent. What kind/size of textures are being used?
In my simple way of thinking, if you have a full-sized figure on screen, even at 4k only a small portion would be used by the face. So perhaps you could optimize depending on what body part is in view. It would be a waste of resources otherwise, wouldn't it?
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (6/19/2018)
4u2ges (6/19/2018)
TonyDPrime (6/18/2018)
Will CC3 be able to produce high quality meshes (not maps, I know 4K is supported), of the likes of 3Lateral's "AndySerkis and Alien" and Cubic Motion's "Siren"?
They mentioned base character mesh optimization (structured quad mesh, edge loops, general shapes improvement,... etc). But back to 4K maps. It would not match DAZ Genesis if character's UV structure would be retained as current one - i.e. 2 maps - head and body. Genesis featuring separate 4K maps for torso, legs, hands.. etc. Meaning CC3 characters would be approximately half as real as DAZ Genesis. It is 1/4 now with CC2 Isn't there a diminished return at some point? I guess I'm confused, because on the one hand there would be a need for optimizing textures for game character purposes, and, as has been pointed out here, characters rendered in Unity and Unreal can look quite good to excellent. What kind/size of textures are being used? In my simple way of thinking, if you have a full-sized figure on screen, even at 4k only a small portion would be used by the face. So perhaps you could optimize depending on what body part is in view. It would be a waste of resources otherwise, wouldn't it?
In the case of the figures I mentioned, it was not only the maps that made them appear realistic, it was in fact the mesh complexity as well. I think in fact then you have multiple 4K maps, (ie over different geographies of the face), as opposed to just one covering the whole face. Or maybe it was 8K in there somewhere, too.
But as far as material maps go, I think we would be looking at it as just an option, to be optimized in both ends of the spectrum.
Sure, if you want an avatar optimized for game, chooser lower scale geometry and lower res maps.
But if you want to have a higher detail character, then select higher geometry and higher-res maps.
But what if the higher detail character is still not detail-potentialed enough, like what if you want to do a character having multiple 4K maps on the body, not for gaming, but for a 'still render'....if then we only have 1 head and one body map, with max at 4K, then it would be limiting. Because in this case, the gaming avatars are coming out fine, but the still-render characters will look weaker, compared to a Daz character, as an example.
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By davood.kharmanzar - 7 Years Ago
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Miranda (RL) (2/14/2018)
*
what are these animation features in the future that mentioned on the roadmap?
means that something like as motion live for CC and an timeline editor like as iclone timeline??
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By Miranda (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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Hi!
This diagram shows CC Characters could be fit in different requirements for its ability in facial morph & body rig, compatibility in game formats, and fine-tuned character base & subdivision technology for 3D visualization. There won't be built-in animation editing function in CC.
davood.kharmanzar (6/23/2018)
Miranda (RL) (2/14/2018)
*
what are these animation features in the future that mentioned on the roadmap?
means that something like as motion live for CC and an timeline editor like as iclone timeline??
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By Peter (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (6/18/2018)
Peter, what I am trying to get an answer to is if there would still be a need for an external program like CT to create custom faces from photos for use in CC3. It would be a disappointment if that were the case, especially for the paid CC3 version. Like Viking said, at the time the use of CT was to be a temporary solution with a separate head creator being planned at some time in the future.
The initial release of Character Creator 3 Pipeline will not include the ability to create faces from photos. You will still need CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline to do that. The "Create Face" feature may be added at a later date but this has not been confirmed yet and is still under discussion.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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Peter (RL) (6/25/2018)
animagic (6/18/2018)
Peter, what I am trying to get an answer to is if there would still be a need for an external program like CT to create custom faces from photos for use in CC3. It would be a disappointment if that were the case, especially for the paid CC3 version. Like Viking said, at the time the use of CT was to be a temporary solution with a separate head creator being planned at some time in the future.The initial release of Character Creator 3 Pipeline will not include the ability to create faces from photos. You will still need CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline to do that. The "Create Face" feature may be added at a later date but this has not been confirmed yet and is still under discussion.
Disappointed sigh.
Oh well, I don't want to shoot the messenger. Thanks for the clear answer.
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By Brisk FX - 7 Years Ago
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I too would like to know when the fingers will not be broken on my fbx 3dxchange exports. Still having to fix the bones manually after export. Really time consuming and impossible to fix an entire animation. Not feeling like we are getting our moneys worth for pipeline.
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By Miranda (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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Brisk FX (6/28/2018)
I too would like to know when the fingers will not be broken on my fbx 3dxchange exports. Still having to fix the bones manually after export. Really time consuming and impossible to fix an entire animation. Not feeling like we are getting our moneys worth for pipeline.
Hi Marcel,
Long time no see! May we know the details of issue, and the process of export? from CC or from 3DXchange? Thanks!
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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We are in Q3 now, right? (Jul-Aug-Sep)
And Q4 starts in October (Oct-Nov-Dec)
Wait, when is CC3 coming out again.....Q5? :P
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By wires - 7 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (7/2/2018)
We are in Q3 now, right? (Jul-Aug-Sep)
And Q4 starts in October (Oct-Nov-Dec)
Wait, when is CC3 coming out again.....Q5? :P
Well, at least you're getting the quarters right this time and RL do have time until the end of September for the release. :):D:hehe::laugh:
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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I was always guessing end of September, beginning of October (I will say one thing for RL is they usually make their release dates, unlike a lot of other companies. Still, having it slide until the fall isn't unlikely).
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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wires (7/2/2018)
TonyDPrime (7/2/2018)
We are in Q3 now, right? (Jul-Aug-Sep)
And Q4 starts in October (Oct-Nov-Dec)
Wait, when is CC3 coming out again.....Q5? :P Well, at least you're getting the quarters right this time and RL do have time until the end of September for the release. :):D:hehe::laugh:
Nice, you agree there is a Q5...Ha, I thought there was. :D
So KT, forget October...we're going extra-extra double OT.
Actually, was RL off on anything with the timeline thus far, I'm thinking they hit everything, with the exception of Python API, iClone 7.3, and Popcorn FX 1.1 (each slated to arrive > Q3)...
But oddly, CC3 was never on the timeline was it....
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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I could have sworn I saw a timeline for CC3 somewhere -- it was hard to reach and even harder to find again, but if it didn't say this quarter I'd eat my hat (good thing I don't wear any :>).
But it will be here when it gets here -- the older you get the faster things arrive (way TOO fast, when you think about it).
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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That's what I've been saying for Iray-
The render will be done when its done :P
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By Brisk FX - 7 Years Ago
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Miranda,
Sorry for the delayed response regarding broken fingers in Cinema 4d. I've been trying to find the time to do a thorough test. I wrote a ticket quite a while back, and this was the response.
12/28/2017 7:47 AM
Thank you for contacting Reallusion.
This is quite complicated & our developer needs time to fix it.
FYI, we've a plan to improve the FBX export including the issue you seen on future patch.
Today's test:
I have updated to the recent version of all programs. Screenshots below.
1) Created a rather stock character in CC 2.3.2420.1
2) Send Character To iClone 7.22.1724.1
3) Added the Fly pose to the character
4) File > Export > FBX > Cinema4D
5) Import to Cinema4d, and fingers still broken
6) Tried the same directly out of CC (although Unity settings due to no Cinema4d option), fingers broken
7) 3DXchange does seem to have different results now, but it is a much longer process and does not have default Cinema4D options
All three programs produce different results, and iClone, which specifically has the Cinema4D option for export produces a broken FBX.
The character test CC to iClone:
iClone File > Export > Export FBX - Cinema 4D:
The result in Cinema 4D
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By Peter (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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Thank you for the feedback Brisk FX. This has been passed back to the development team to investigate. When I have more information I will update again.
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By kmitchell.12catblackstudios - 7 Years Ago
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I noticed on the current characters the shoulders are bery broad even on females. Is there a way to adjust this in the new version? Also can GoZ export in A-pose?
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By Peter (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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Hi Brisk FX,
Just to let you know the cause of the bent finger issue has been identified and we plan to fix the issue as soon as possible, hopefully in the 7.3 update.
Apologies for the inconvenience caused.
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By chadfranklin47 - 6 Years Ago
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Hello, I was wondering if it would be possible to add an Alpha Injection Mask to the list of exported textures. I would like for there to be a black and white map showing which sections of the character texture are hidden by each clothing item (black for hidden, white for visible). This allows us to cutout parts of the mesh behind the clothing to prevent it from clipping through. The reason why the "Delete Hidden Mesh" option is not enough is that the change is permanent and does not allow clothing to be disabled or else have an invisible character. Having an option to export alpha injection masks would allow us to disable and enable clothing.
As of now, it is necessary to export 2 versions of the character, one with the "Delete Hidden Mesh" and one without. Then, we are still left with the problem of finding on our own which sections of the texture are hidden and which aren't. Would adding an option to export Alpha Injection Masks be possible? I understand that not everyone would need this level of customization which is why it should be an option. Thank you very much.
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By Peter (RL) - 6 Years Ago
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chadfranklin47 (1/1/2019)
Hello, I was wondering if it would be possible to add an Alpha Injection Mask to the list of exported textures. I would like for there to be a black and white map showing which sections of the character texture are hidden by each clothing item (black for hidden, white for visible). This allows us to cutout parts of the mesh behind the clothing to prevent it from clipping through. The reason why the "Delete Hidden Mesh" option is not enough is that the change is permanent and does not allow clothing to be disabled or else have an invisible character. Having an option to export alpha injection masks would allow us to disable and enable clothing.
As of now, it is necessary to export 2 versions of the character, one with the "Delete Hidden Mesh" and one without. Then, we are still left with the problem of finding on our own which sections of the texture are hidden and which aren't. Would adding an option to export Alpha Injection Masks be possible? I understand that not everyone would need this level of customization which is why it should be an option. Thank you very much.Hi Chad For any requests and improvements to our products or services, please can you use our Feedback Tracker. The tracker is monitored directly by the relevant departmental teams and you will get feedback from the team there. In addition it allows other users to support your request with the most requested suggestions getting priority.
To use the Feedback Tracker, please click the link below.
Thank you.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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Peter (RL) (1/1/2019)
For any requests and improvements to our products or services, please can you use our Feedback Tracker. The tracker is monitored directly by the relevant departmental teams and you will get feedback from the team there. In addition it allows other users to support your request with the most requested suggestions getting priority.
@Peter(RL),
a) Be careful about setting expectations.
b) I agree that Feedback Tracker is the best place to officially request enhancements and report bugs.
c) However, it is EXTREMELY RARE to actually get feedback from your company, other than non-technical, user-level responses from moderators on the forum.
d) See the three most recent comments here: Issue #262
e) If you think my example is an exception, you are correct. Usually you don't get any feedback.
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By chadfranklin47 - 6 Years Ago
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Thank you, Peter.
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By chadfranklin47 - 6 Years Ago
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Thank you also for the insight, justaviking.
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By Peter (RL) - 6 Years Ago
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justaviking (1/1/2019)
@Peter(RL),
a) Be careful about setting expectations.
b) I agree that Feedback Tracker is the best place to officially request enhancements and report bugs.
c) However, it is EXTREMELY RARE to actually get feedback from your company, other than non-technical, user-level responses from moderators on the forum.
d) See the three most recent comments here: Issue #262
e) If you think my example is an exception, you are correct. Usually you don't get any feedback.
Hi Viking
I understand what you are saying. We hear the frequent calls for more direct contact with the development teams and we are trying to improve in this area. However when it comes to the Feedback Tracker, the important aspect is that it is still monitored closely, even if you don't get a personal reply from the team. If you look at most recent product updates you will see many of the improvements and fixes have come from the Feedback Tracker which proves my point that the FT is the best way to get fixes and improvements implemented even if you don't always get a personal reply.
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By justaviking - 6 Years Ago
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@Peter,
No argument there.
I already agreed that Feedback Tracker is the best way to report bugs and request enhancements.
I was merely cautioning against setting an expectation that "you will get feedback." It might happen, but it's rare.
Peace and joy to you for 2019.
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By bcollins - 6 Years Ago
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I agree with Illusion Lab: I have paid $2300 so far and freaking eyelashes and eyes are combined into the body texture type uggggg -- same mistake adobe fuse did
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