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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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Thought I'd repost this with a little more dramatic topic title... I can't believe I'm the only one who is trying to use FBX exports - would be nice to have this issue corroborated.
I created a scene in iC7.1 for FBX export and there were several faults. I had not experienced these faults in iC7.0. I made a little demo to illustrate - in a nutshell, the camera framing is way off and there are 'bumps' in the animated camera path. Looking at the co-ordinates of the camera and geo that are being exported, it actually looks as if the camera is correct but the geo is significantly smaller and/or further away - basically nothing like what you're trying to export. Also, attaching individual objects to the floor so they export in the correct position is kind of a pain - but having to 'reset transform' every object that has been scaled is downright rude. This is not the case in any other FBX export capable software I use, so whether it's a bug or another iClone 'quirk' it should be addressed.
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By Jfrog - 8 Years Ago
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Hi guys,
I haven't tried to export in FBX yet, and perhaps you already know this, but there is a nice tutorial from Warlord where he talks about merging sub props (edit menu) before exporting in FBX . You can check from 2:20 to 4:00 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9mQsrxUDL0
This won't solve the camera problem but perhaps might help for props.
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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Merging sub props does exactly that... it makes them all into one prop - so, you freeze all animation you may have had on the props. I have tried various "simple" scenarios with inconsistent results - sometimes the camera is correct, but the prop animation isn't - sometimes the camera is correct, the prop animation is correct but the prop scaling is incorrect. Exporting an FBX scene from C4D opens exactly the same in Fusion and Blender (with lights!) - no extra steps or work around required... I don't recall having these issues with iCv7.0.
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By Jfrog - 8 Years Ago
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Exporting an FBX scene from C4D opens exactly the same in Fusion and Blender (with lights!) - no extra steps or work around required... I don't recall having these issues with iCv7.0.
It seems like a great feature. When it work of course! ;)
Let's hope Reallusion fix this soon.
Thanks again for your export & import camera camera tip and video.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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@IllusionLAB -
If you export the scene Alembic, does the same "bad stuff" happen? I am guessing no, just want to see if you had tried different exports and gotten consistent or different results .
I have gone from iClone to 3DS Max, and it worked fine before, hadn't tried since last update. Usually just avatar stuff, not too much prop stuff.
I know 7.1 is full of bugs, let us know if the alembic one does or doesn't have the same issues as the exported FBX, and I think this is even further instance of bugginess.
I will add it to the list of items I had prepared in the 7.1 thread for us. We are looking for a #8! (or #7, or whatever it is...)
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By Pixtim - 8 Years Ago
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animation transfer problems often come from the fact that your start and end scene are not the same number of frames per second. Software often interpolates this transformation incorrectly. If you go from Cinema4D to Iclone, it's better to bake the animation so that there is an animation key for each frame (there is a function for that). I'm not sure it's possible to ask for it in Iclone.
To go from Iclone to Cinema4D, the solution would be to change the number of frames per second in Cinema4D, after importing the animation (if it is necessary to make this change)
Ogier
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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I haven't experienced any troubles with Alembic, but have yet to try in this situation - primarily as I have no desire to export an entire 'set' and then have to manually re-apply all the textures. I'm not transferring from C4D to iClone - it's the other way around. I'm sorry to say the problem lies completely with iClone - exported FBX from iClone is consistently wrong in C4D, Fusion, Nuke and Blender (I have access to Maya, Max and Houdini too... but don't feel the need to go that far). I don't have time right this minute, but last night I did discover that the problem is "props scaling". The iC7.1 camera export shows the same coordinates in the other programs... and the "floor" object from iC also shows x0y0z0 position in all programs. iClone objects have a series of 'transforms' that conform their coordinates - that is, all objects start at zero with pivot point at the bottom... so, to correct that there is a transform for repositioning the pivot, a transform to transform the position etc. My "floor" object had been scaled to 300% before attaching the other props... this is directly related to the framing being completely wrong in the FBX export. I suggest you try it yourselves to see what I mean. Create a floor and scale it to 300%, add 3 primitives and then move two of them X 100 and X -100. Attach the 3 primitives to the floor. Create a simple camera move and export the "floor" and "camera" to FBX - open in another 3D software... the result will not be what you expect. ;-)
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By animagic - 8 Years Ago
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A scale other than 100% is problematic in some cases, also in iClone. That's why I usually re-scale.
Anyway, it would be great of there was an open-source, generally accepted export format other than FBX, which is proprietary and always seems to give problems in one direction or the other, as we never know how the implementation on the other side is. It like having an interface between two systems without having a proper interface definition.
Blender has had its problems with FBX over the years and so has DAZ.
The problem with FBX also seems to be that there is a new version every year, which to me defeats the status of it being a standard exchange format; rather it's a moving target.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Yeah, I think there are great points here:
1) Maybe baking the animation by frame will yield better results
2) could be version of C4D, FBX export, and/or FBX export mode
The camera itself seems to be the issue right?
I think some trials with a moving a camera should be easy to replicate and test. I will try in 3DS Max.
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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FBX is evolving, like any software - so hardly a moving target. It's safer for companies, like RL, to develop on older versions as they offer the necessary features and are stable - using the 'latest' FBX is a gamble with "non Pro" software. All the major CG platforms always support multiple versions of FBX export/import to ensure compatibility. I made a quick cross platform video to illustrate... simple animation and geo created in C4D and exported to FBX 7.2 (2012). As expected, there are no issues on any of the other platforms. TDP, if you review my previous posts you will see I have discounted the camera being the problem - it's a scaling issue that iClone creates on exported geometry.
I didn't start this post for 'theories' on why it's not iClone... just try it for yourselves - maybe you don't have any need to export FBX, but I'm sure that I'm not alone in having bought into the full iClone Suite for that very purpose.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Look at this weirdness...maybe ShadowCatcher Prop?
Simple scene exported from iClone to Max using the 3DSMax-FBX-Export setting in iClone.
Same settings I always used for exports, but look at the difference in resulted camera angle of the plane vs the cube when I exported with, and then without, the ShadowCatcher prop from iClone:
FRAME 1
iClone 7.1
3DS Max - FBX with ShadowCatcher
3DS Max - FBX without Shadow Catcher
FRAME 1800
iClone 7.1
3DS Max - FBX with Shadow Catcher
3DS Max - FBX without Shadow Catcher
What the FB-XXX is going on here.
I will try to C4D!
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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OK, just posted another demo illustrating the unpredictable results. Cubes were resized to 50% - this should not be a problem, nor require any extra steps... when working on a big scene you can't be worrying if you "reset transform" on every prop you've touched... especially if they're animated (which doesn't always 'cure' the problem either). It's clearly an export problem - which, I did not encounter with v7.0 - the logical conclusion being that it's a bug.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Same happened with ShadowCatcher on and off in export to C4D. Well, at least it was consistent.
FRAME 1
iClone 7.1
C4D - FBX with Shadow Catcher
C4D - FBX without Shadow Catcher
FRAME 1800
iClone 7.1
C4D - FBX with Shadow Catcher
C4D - FBX without Shadow Catcher
But in my case what I would do would be export w/o shadow catcher as the resulting plane cube and camera angle match iClone 7.1. So I don't see an issue with my simple scene.
Maybe not really an issue, as Shadow Catcher plane in both cases was grey, then is tan, like iClone's, without shadow catcher.
Is it just that the Shadow Catcher is visible in an FBX export?
Anyway, there was no animation other than cam over the 1800 frame test, so it is a basic test.
What is the factor that separates my scene from IllsuionLAB's. Mine has a moving cam, over a prop, like his.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Hey guess what...
I am exporting a moving prop scene now, 3 props with a moving frame. Like IllusionLAB's.
The export to C4D gets all messed up, it seems to locate all props at Geo-center, and if I sub-props to the plane, it is still messed up, as the animation is all over the place.
BUT - I exported to 3DS Max, and what do you know....no problem at all. All 3 props animate fine, and are located just like in iClone.
It seems like the pivot and bones as a sub-prop are located correct and move correct in iClone to 3DS Max export, but not in iClone to C4D.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Okay...So now I export the working scene (originally imported from from iClone) in Max, as an FBX...
To C4D...
Guess what...
Perfect. (actually one material was weird but I fixed by unticking Transparency in the C4D material editor)
(iClone FBX to Max...then the resulting scene is FBX'd to C4D from Max)
So I go back to C4D and directly try to open the iClone FBX to Max version, which imported into Max perfect, and..
No Dice...
still messed up.
What could be making this happen...
Why would the scene from Max go into C4D fine...FBX year/generation?
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Just so I am clear,
1 - FBX export from iClone (in C4D or Max export format) with multiple animated prop, to C4D - no work .
2 - FBX export from iClone with multiple animated props, to 3DS Max - works
3 - #2, then exported from 3DS Max as an FBX, to C4D - works
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By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago
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While I understand the purpose of this thread, I tend to side with those who feel FBX is just a weird, non-standard format. Daz, for one, just can't get the export right either -- don't even want to go into the mess that happens at times with it. While that doesn't mean RL can't continue to strive to make the export as good as possible for those who need it, I also don't blame them for being unable to do so.
I think at this point the best you can do, as you have done, is report the problems and hope for solutions. I also think the expectation must be that the priority may be lower than it would be for other things, as it's certainly not a core aspect of iClone (hell, they haven't updated XChange in so long it's ridiculous, other than making sure it works with the latest iClone formats).
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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I'm sorry KT but I think RL should be speaking for themselves - especially when it's about their 'core' business. If I wanted a toy to make animations iClone would suffice... but they have made a big deal about content creation for games and previz and so on - at a premium - so paying for the ability to export FBX and OBJ means it should be supported equally with all other plugins or add ons which they sell. If, like DAZ, and many other programs the FBX in/out was included as a standard feature then possibly it would be a lower priority. FBX is a standard format that both the Film and Game industry use and count on daily. I'm pretty sure when Popcorn FX arrives you'll be one of the first to expose a flaw or bug, and other forum members will be appreciative as opposed to saying "it's a low priority for RL so you get what you get". Let's try and help each other and voice our concerns to RL as a community. I suppose I should make a point of repeating what I've said for those who don't read entire threads... FBX export used to work and now it doesn't.
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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For the record... I just exported the same test scene to Maya - different results, same problem. The BIG difference in iClone exports is that all the animation is controlled with armatures (bones, joints). So, it's not just 'rotating a cube', it's got and arm realigning the pivot (from bottom to centre) and a child arm making the rotation etc. Other programs just rotate the cube in world space.
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By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago
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Since you've been around here a long time, I assume you know by now this is a user-to-user forum. RL will NOT "speak for themselves" except on VERY official type "everyone knows this" sort of issues. Everything else has to be reported as a trouble ticket and addressed accordingly.
But you already know this so no real need to point it out.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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So to summarize -
FBX to C4D - Badda-boosh
FBX to 3DS Max - Badda-bing
But in earlier iC7 versions FBX to C4D was also Badda-bing.
PS - If you see any subsequent RL announcement post using the technical terminology "Badda-bosh" or "Badda-bing", you will know they read this thread.
(ie - you might see later this month, "We are pleased to announce today the release of PopcornFx. Users can now enjoy making their scenes go Badda-bing...And as well, Badda-boosh with all those ants going all over the place.")
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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FBX is really a tough nut to crack when going to and from different software especially non Max software. And yes it seems every-time a new version of Iclone is put out someone changes something if the FBX stuff. A problem I have going into LightWave has to do with hierarchy and parenting. do to how different softwares parent things and dealing with world space vs object space. Also if you mess with a graph editor and then try to export in FBX this can cause problems. I've even had trouble re-importing back into the same software.
Here is a way to really tell if its a bug download the FBX REVIEW tool and see how it works there. if it works there it's not really a bug its a compatibility issue between softwares. Unfortunately FBX for other software is Import and eport is written by them using the SDK for FBX. I found this to be the issue with some FBX stuff between Iclone and LightWave. So I started learning about lightWave side FBX import rules so I could correct the problems myself.
Onto alembic export remember this is mesh manipulation meaning its like a baked animation. So you loose the ability to manipulate bones if exporting this way and need to rely on mesh deformation tools.
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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nevermind ......
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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Appreciate the comments, but the first thing I did was post it in the Feedback Tracker as a bug. The export is directly from iClone... if you watch the last video I posted in this thread it doesn't get any clearer. The same iC7.1 gives completely different errors in C4D, Maya, Blender (the worst of them all!), Fusion 9, Nuke, Houdini (although to be fair it was almost correct... but still of no use) and FBX review. While I respect your loyalty to iClone it's clear that anyone 'making suggestions' has not tried it for themselves. Reallusion has used the FBX SDK and created their own "unique" flavour of FBX export, but possibly their choice/need to use bones for all the animation has created a complex beast that is easy to corrupt when adding new features etc. I'm sure this will be quietly resolved by RL... but the project I was relying on iClone for is currently a 100% fail - not a criticism, just a fact. I work in high end Visual Effects for film/TV and, unlike many, I am always looking for 'hidden gems' where most can't see that far down their noses... I think iClone could be a hidden gem, but currently it needs a lot of polishing.
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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illusionLAB (12/16/2017)
Appreciate the comments, but the first thing I did was post it in the Feedback Tracker as a bug. The export is directly from iClone... if you watch the last video I posted in this thread it doesn't get any clearer. The same iC7.1 gives completely different errors in C4D, Maya, Blender (the worst of them all!), Fusion 9, Nuke and Houdini (although to be fair it was almost correct... but still of no use). I have colleagues who use Max, but I don't want to bother them over this as the proof that the error is in iClone's export has been established. While I respect your loyalty to iClone it's clear that anyone 'making suggestions' has not tried it for themselves. Reallusion has used the FBX SDK and created their own "unique" flavour of FBX export - if it truly is bulletproof in 3DS Max, then it stands to reason that is possibly their only 'acid test' (which is most unlikely). I'm sure this will be quietly resolved by RL... but the project I was relying on iClone for is currently a 100% fail - not a criticism, just a fact. I work in high end Visual Effects for film/TV and, like many, I am always looking for 'hidden gems' where most can't see that far down their noses... I think iClone could be a hidden gem, but currently it needs a lot of polishing.
illusionLAB first you are one of the people on here I respect most when it comes to knowledge. My concern isn't for Iclone its because I ran into similar situations trying to get into and out of LightWave which is going to be my core softwave. I am working on a work flow to use Iclone as a poor-mans Motion Builder. So being able to get into and out of Iclone through FBX is important.
I dealt with a problem exporting ( out of Exchange mind you) which I was convinced was a problem with Iclone (I put in a Feedback track) then I got the FBX viewer tool because It can also convert to different versions of FBX and I hoped it would help me solve the problem. Funny thing when I imported the mesh I was having trouble with it worked just fine in the viewer.
Odds are the problem is the curve editor FBX doesn't know how to handle some of the spline types. Here is an experiment for you try re-importing the file back into Iclone see if it works. and the other issues of scale might be a parenting issue...
Let me clarify the parenting issue in LightWave in a character with bones the Mesh must be at the top of the structure. Iclone likes to bring it out last putting it at the bottom. Bad thing is Max doesn't seem to care which way it is they know to look for this problem and fix it on import lightWave doesn't
Edit: although this information is pertinent to FBX it is slightly off topic due to missing an updated post clarifying the actual problem. And although FBX can be a mess in any program not Autodesk this problem is on Iclone side and appears even in Autodesk FBX...
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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okay gonna put this down for blender users i will ignore the people playing the "im a pro" card.
Looking at the video the camera is interpreting top and front a certain way. Iclone was built on a max environment. If you are having trouble with your rotations which this is .. its possible its as simple as changing the environment set up to match that of max in blender .. you can do this .. but clicking on this tab. There is also a tutorial series to tell how to match maya there is probably a max one too.. but I just click through this if i notice its a rotation thing and knowing the iclones environment was built on max and that is stuffs bones in everything cause that is a feature of the software its an issue of orientation and rotations unless you linked a bunch of stuff together then its a basic rigging issue so you might need to worry about more then just the camera (this one was the camera). I would start here first because it appears to be a simple rotation of the camera issue in other words the iclone up/front axis is not the same at the axis in blender. Blender is very customizatible that is its strong suite you can probably solve this in blender just by clicking a few buttons. (select the camera first then change the rotational axis of the camera )
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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urbanlamb (12/16/2017)
okay gonna put this down for blender users i will ignore the people playing the "im a pro" card. Looking at the video the camera is interpreting top and front a certain way. Iclone was built on a max environment. If you are having trouble with your rotations which this is .. its possible its as simple as changing the environment set up to match that of max in blender .. you can do this .. but clicking on this tab. There is also a tutorial series to tell how to match maya there is probably a max one too.. but I just click through this if i notice its a rotation thing and knowing the iclones environment was built on max and that is stuffs bones in everything cause that is a feature of the software its an issue of orientation and rotations unless you linked a bunch of stuff together then its a basic rigging issue so you might need to worry about more then just the camera (this one was the camera). I would start here first because it appears to be a simple rotation of the camera issue in other words the iclone up/front axis is not the same at the axis in blender. Blender is very customizatible that is its strong suite you can probably solve this in blender just by clicking a few buttons. (select the camera first then change the rotational axis of the camera )
I hope your not referring to me on the "pro card" because I am far from a pro at any of this. My only deal is for the last several months I have been struggling with FBX files and import and export issues and hoped my limited knowledge might help someone being I have be working of learning about FBX import and export...
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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About having to change your world space aspect. If your exporting for example to the Blender sittings shouldn't it come in in normal world space direction?
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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paulg625 (12/16/2017)
I hope your not referring to me on the "pro card" because I am far from a pro at any of this. My only deal is for the last several months I have been struggling with FBX files and import and export issues and hoped my limited knowledge might help someone being I have be working of learning about FBX import and export...
No i simply get tired of people saying "im a pro" when posting a problem to a forum usually accompanied by lack of answers from the community then when people do answer cause this is a community message board they say" blah blah blah i'm a pro" and then it leaves me wondering why i bothered to answer. You didnt say "blah blah blah i'm a pro".
People tend to post threads on forums because they are trying to have a discussion if they dont value the input of the community then why bother asking? I post like once and then i see that thrown after a post i make i just ... can't be bothered, but in this case I thought better of it.
This is a curve editor they see things in a very specific way in x,y,z terms and so when you set up things to animate them especially in blender which has its own way you actually have to tell it which coordinates to use for animation this is .. well basic animation and math which makes my head hurt, but this is what this is. I can't remember what xyz max uses but i know its not the default blender euler set up, but I can't even remember what that is right now because i am working on something for which I had to change it. If i remember rightly since my default is set by me when you open up blender its using quaternions or did i set it that way?
so you see the problem in blender. I know for a fact the default blender set up is not the default iclone set up (well it has only one set up its whatever the chose when they built the thing) :)
I am just looking at this one example which is the camera.
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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urbanlamb (12/16/2017)
No i simply get tired of people saying "im a pro" when posting a problem to a forum usually accompanied by lack of answers from the community then when people do answer cause this is a community message board they say" blah blah blah i'm a pro" and then it leaves me wondering why i bothered to answer. You didnt say "blah blah blah i'm a pro".
People tend to post threads on forums because they are trying to have a discussion if they dont value the input of the community then why bother asking? I post like once and then i see that thrown after a post i make i just ... can't be bothered, but in this case I thought better of it.
This is a curve editor they see things in a very specific way in x,y,z terms and so when you set up things to animate them especially in blender which has its own way you actually have to tall it which coordinates to use for animation this is .. well basic animation and math which makes my head hurt, but this is what this is. I can't remember what xyz max uses but i know its not the default blender euler set up, but I can't even remember what that is right now because i am working on something for which I had to change it. If i remember rightly since my default is set by me when you open up blender its using quaternions or did i set it that way?
so you see the problem in blender. I know for a fact the default blender set up is not the default iclone set up (well it has only one set up its whatever the chose when they built the thing) :)
ggggrr tried to quote you sorry i can't but no i haven't said that to you ... i just run away from this forum a lot because everytime i post i get told to shut up basically LOL.
I understand where you are coming from. . I know what you mean about the curve editor My reference about the curve editor comes from an experience I had trying to tweak a motion in Lightwave before Iclone got their curve editor. and it was adding all sorts of extra movement to the movement and I was sure it was an Iclone problem. Then I decided to re-import the motion back into LightWave and all the problems were in the FBX file i believe it had to do with the type of Curves I was trying to use FBX had all the frames baked and I reduced the keys and made adjustments using curves (splines) and this the FBX didn't seem to understand. And as you said each software translates there curve editor their way so these things don't come out in FBX correctly and with him saying no problem in 7.0 I was wondering if he was using the Curve editor and FBX doesn't like it...
Reread your post and I know exactly what you mean now.
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By 4u2ges - 8 Years Ago
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What I am about to say, might or might not relate to the camera problem guys are having. It is about importing FBX to iclone and trying to spin it (I describe the problem in a thread "Reinventing the wheel").
But that is not the point...
So I believe that iClone was built on max environment (I am not a pro - just leaning, researching, making logical conclusions).
But there is something conceptually wrong with the way it was built. I believe nothing is going to help here, until RL fixes it.
Hear this. I downloaded a car model built in max in 2 formats - 3DS and FBX. So what are the chances that FBX from the package was generated outside of max? Slim, none?
Now, I opened 3DS in 3DX and imported the wheel only to iClone. Then I opened FBX and did the same. Now I have 2 identical wheel models - side by side.
I do apply the same animation to both - a simple spin by 1000 degrees.
The animation for 3DS version is working but for FBX version is NOT... Why?
Should I make another video? :hehe:
lol Some people are way too sensitive :)
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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I dont know about anymore videos or care i simply was looking at the camera issue which is an envrionment one and related to 3dsmax and there are bugs most definatly. Anyhow I said what I needed regarding the evironment issue which is actually from eons ago when they started advertising this stuff and.. it only worked in max... they started advertising that in iclone 5.
However if you post to a forum i dont know what the purpose of posting is if you already know the answer are these like trick questions? Anyhow the info is up for anyone who cares. The rest not truly intersted in.
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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Well I put a few objects in a scene ( a garage, canopy, bench, and camera) made a simple camera move (no curve editor adjustment) and other than world space being sideways (on the Max export setting) and the camera movement matched.
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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paulg625 (12/16/2017)
Well I put a few objects in a scene ( a garage, canopy, bench, and camera) made a simple camera move (no curve editor adjustment) and other than world space being sideways (on the Max export setting) and the camera movement matched.
You might need to just change that but that example given its pretty simple fix I think. If I remember the iclone 5 ads they had all the characters using paths to get it to work and there were no cameras.. and it only worked in max. :)
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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Well just did a more complex camera move other than frame rate and (world space being sideways but when in camera mode cant tell) every thing works right gonna do it again with out changing the frame rate and see how well it matches when running both programs. I laugh because I usually have so much trouble with FBX and here its actually working right...
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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I have already stated that the camera exports are actually not the issue. It appears to be a geo scaling issue. The first problem I had was because I had scaled the 'floor' by 300% - the camera was actually correct except for the bumps which are intermittent and most likely linked to the new curve editor). So, Paul625, if you repeat your simple scene with a floor that's been scaled, and also scale one of the props, let us know if the FBX export is faithful... and, if so, the steps involved for an accurate result.
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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illusionLAB (12/16/2017)
I have already stated that the camera exports are actually not the issue. It appears to be a geo scaling issue. The first problem I had was because I had scaled the 'floor' by 300% - the camera was actually correct except for the bumps which are intermittent and most likely linked to the new curve editor). So, Paul625, if you repeat your simple scene with a floor that's been scaled, and also scale one of the props, let us know if the FBX export is faithful... and, if so, the steps involved for an accurate result.
Ok sorry missed your clarification working on scaling things now.
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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4u2ges (12/16/2017)
lol Some people are way too sensitive :)
Im assuming that your talking to me since i am the one that removed my post. Its actually a question I have about this forum and its not about being upset I just find it odd so since I am the one that brought it up I thought I might as well ask.
I kinda use this forum like once every 6 months with the same results a) either someone says the information is not needed or b) the guy is saying I dont need your answers cause *rolls eyes* "i'm a pro". So what's the point of asking?
so I am running under the assumption at this point that the people who ask questions here dont really want answers or that the forum is not meant for the sharing of information because (and its not just me that experiences it) when people try to share info they basically get told to go away LOL. So I would think a feedback tracker is what they are after since they dont want any input (not really) and so just put it on the tracker and if its not a bug it will get closed and if it is a bug it will get fixed. Would save everyone some time.
Its just an illogical thing that is occuring so I thought I would say something. I withdrew the information because he didnt want it LOL. Am I upset? nope I am however puzzled. Cause if you wanted an "official" answer then just send in a support ticket or open up an issue on the tracker. The camera issue interested me I didnt see anything else happening in that clip other then a camera wizzing around a scene. MY biggest beef with the exchange is the fact it has no memory and I can't export a file with all the animations attached and textures it poops out on me, but alas this is also not a bug.
So far my trick question hypothesis is sound I have had the same result 100% of the time. hence its a pointless waste of time. So there now you know if that pink was meant for me that nooo has nothing to do with that. Some people though I am convinced dont want answers or input. This i am quite sure of.
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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OK took a while to get set up because I was also working on checking different formats for correct world space orientation to work in Lightwave. Found Cinema4D worked but started having other problems and wanted to make sure it wasn't me because they were weird different problems than what you had I think need to watch your videos again especially the second one. So had weird duplication problem when I scaled stuff so decided to open the file in FBX viewer and see what happened same weird duplication issue. So going to try a few different things go back to beginning and see if back to working at base scale and the strike out again with scaling...
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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Ok got on same page definitely a problem on export side of Iclone. I have a prop with a lid but all part of the same geometry. I have it start scaling down to 50% then move. the video plays as if its always 50% scale and the lid appears to be where it would be if object was 100% and I'm using FBX viewer which is part of the FBX converter tool made by Autodesk to view and convert FBX files. This should be fixed and I do need FBX export ability....
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By 4u2ges - 8 Years Ago
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urbanlamb (12/16/2017) Im assuming that your talking to me...
I updated the post since I did not want to interrupt people from having a conversation here. I just stated my point of view about this whole ordeal with FBX import/export - I figured it might be relevant. "Why?" was a rethorical question and a joke about another video. I did not expect anyone to respond. But somehow you determined it was addressed directly to you and gave me some cold response. So lets not continue with this and give people a break... Peace? :)
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By animagic - 8 Years Ago
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It makes sense to assume that the curve editor has something to do with the problems. I believe the data structure for the motions has changed somehow to accommodate the curve editor, so that might affect the FBX export as well.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Does anyone have thoughts on exporting scene with multiple moving props as FBX from iClone 7.1:
1) no issues with the scene root bones moving the props when exported from iClone 7.1 in Max format to 3DS Max
2) issues with the scene root bones moving the props when exported from iClone 7.1 in C4D format, or Max format, to C4D
3) no issue if exporting from iClone 7.1 to Max, then exporting that Max scene itself, from Max, as an FBX, to C4D
Seems like Max can do something that iClone can't do when it exports to C4D. What might be a variable in Max that would be making the difference?
Because it seems like a workaround to exporting to C4D, would be to export to Max first, then export that to C4D.
It's like 3DS Max is the real estate agent, or attorney, for iClone. It even charges an 8% fee :angry:
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (12/17/2017)
Does anyone have thoughts on exporting scene with multiple moving props as FBX from iClone 7.1:
1) no issues with the scene root bones moving the props when exported from iClone 7.1 in Max format to 3DS Max
2) issues with the scene root bones moving the props when exported from iClone 7.1 in C4D format, or Max format, to C4D
3) no issue if exporting from iClone 7.1 to Max, then exporting that Max scene itself, from Max, as an FBX, to C4D
Seems like Max can do something that iClone can't do when it exports to C4D. What might be a variable in Max that would be making the difference?
Because it seems like a workaround to exporting to C4D, would be to export to Max first, then export that to C4D.
It's like 3DS Max is the real estate agent, or attorney, for iClone. It even charges an 8% fee :angry:
Tony,
Be advised I had problems with sizing and moving object even going into the Autodesk FBX Converter tool. (Don't know if you have seen this tool) it is made by Autodesk to convert FBX files to different versions. It also has a viewer so this should match 3D max file input. I use it to tell if an FBX issue is on the Import or Export of a function (Cause I don't have Max)
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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I'll have to 'second' that TDP... I had a colleague open a couple of iClone FBX exports in 3DS Max, and unsurprisingly, it was consistent with Maya and Autodesk's FBX player. So, 3DS Max... Badda-Boosh! In summary, currently an animation involving props, where some have been scaled, causes abnormal FBX exports with unpredictable and inaccurate results in the following: Cinema 4D, Maya, 3DS Max, Houdini, Blender, Fusion 9, Nuke and Autodesk FBX player. I'd say the results are pretty conclusively "serious bug". Of course, being a "peer to peer" only forum it would be most helpful if everybody who needs FBX animation export (and those who want iClone to deliver on a key feature they are selling us) to "vote" on the Feedback Tracker. cheers, Mark
https://www.reallusion.com/FeedBackTracker/Issue/FBX-export-camera-bumps-and-scene-geometry-placement-issues
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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Vote added,
Thanks for posting the link Mark. Can be a real pain sometimes to dig through the tracks to find a specific tracker.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Vote added.
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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Thanks TonyDP! I'm not quite sure the comment you added is correct as the 'crucial factor' is the serious madness brought on by animating scaled props - the problems have nothing specifically to do with C4D, Max or any of the other CG programs I've tested. I have uploaded an "control test" example for anyone interested in seeing how the FBX export results from an iC7.1 are nothing like expected. No voodoo going on, not even a camera move... just three cubes and a floor with synced animation (not copied, but individually keyframed to avoid copying the 'same fault' to each cube). Basically, the green cube was scaled to 500% and then animated - the red cube was scaled 500%, animated and then "reset transform" to commit the scaling to 100% - the blue cube was scaled to 500% and reset to 100%, then scaled to 200% and reset to 100% before finally reducing to 50%. The floor was scaled to 300% but not 'reset'... this causes the scene to appear a third of the size in the exported FBX camera. The exported camera is correct, 50mm lens 36mm gate.
my "scientific control test" iClone project can be downloaded from here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dhgvejnfqizjaxy/fbx_exp_anim_test.iProject?dl=0
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By paulg625 - 8 Years Ago
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Decided to see what would happen if I exported a character from within Iclone and it came into LightWave with about 40 extra bones it calls floor bones each grouping is attached to an extremely each hand and foot has 10 extra bones. Now I have trouble exporting from exchange but this is a whole new weirdness. Problem also exists in FBX viewer, crazy part is the motion actually works and animates properly despite the extra bones
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By animagic - 8 Years Ago
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@4u2ges: I don't have any of the external programs. but I took your project and exported from iClone to FBX and then opened it into the Autodesk FBX viewer.
What I see is that the blue cube is elevated to the correct height and fully rotates once as it should, but the red and green cubes are elevated twice the distance and rotate two times...:unsure:
If I then import back into 3DXchange I see the same, as when I re-import back in iClone. It comes back as a merged prop, which makes me wonder if it is exported merged, which could cause problems in itself.
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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The three cubes are "attached" but not merged... my experience is that it's the only way to export a 'set' from iClone and maintain each object's relative position. The entire process seems flawed to me... having everything rooted at 0,0,0 and then a series of armatures to offset the pivots, scale and transform objects is three times the work (and potential for errors, gimbal lock etc.) There may be some "game" logic involved... foreign territory to me, but at least a potential reason for such a complicated rig. Trying to edit the exported FBX animation is far more complicated too - also far more work than standard exports from other 3D animation programs.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Yes, my note in the FBT was to describe the inconsistency of a same iClone scene with unresized animated props going to 3DS Max vs C4D.
The armatures for the 3 props had differing results (Max works, C4D doesn't). And, resizing the prop didn't even have to take place for it to be off in the case of C4D.
The problem is there even without resizing.
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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Speaking of mayhem,
I tried this- I had a moving sphere, box, and cylinder, over a floor plane.
Instead of attaching props directly to a floor plane, I attached each prop to a respective same prop, like a dummy, and then attached those to the floor plane.
No resizing.
Look at the FBX exported to both Max and C4D...
Additional props, armatures all over the place...
In the case of 3DS Max, I can actually delete the resulting extra props I didn't want, as the moving props actually match that of iClone.
Whereas in the case of C4D, some of the props are misplaced from the start, and others don't move properly.
You do not need any understanding of FBX....just eyes. How do you get 6+ primitives from a 6 primitive scene...
Might be the way iClone communicates prop attachment, or the way the program interprets it, but either way, Mayhem.
iC7
3DS Max
C4D
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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I next tried each prop individually as a sub prop of the floor plane into C4D, and it worked in each separate case. This showed it may be the combination of moving props and sub-props which gets things screwy.
(What I dd in iClone was I unattached the not-to-be-exported props, and found each time the single attached prop exported separately would import into C4D with movement perfectly.)
So, instead of trying to combine all in an export, I imported one FBX in C4D, then Merged (as opposed to Opened) the other 2 separate FBX exports, in C4D.
And Voila!
The scene in C4D now had all 3 props working, animating and located properly, matching that of iClone.
So - Workaround may be to export each animated prop individually as an FBX and then merge all the FBXs into one, in C4D.
(BTW - I am not using Blender at all, just C4D here.)
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By illusionLAB - 8 Years Ago
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Thanks TonyDP, I appreciate the effort but it's clear that the FBX export is broken so the only workaround for guaranteed results is to not use iClone until they fix it. Exporting individual animated props is not practical for complicated sets, and the relationship to the camera is still affected by scaling props in the scene. The workflow I was attempting required rendering the scene in iClone and then making an FBX export of the camera and 'set' which needs to overlay with the iClone render exactly. Having the camera and animated geo in Fusion 9 gives me access to the Z depth, World Space, Motion Vectors etc. For me it's a quick and more flexible way to add depth of field, motion blur, 3D atmosphere, particles etc. without long render times. I've been using that workflow with iClone for a while... it's only since the latest update it's all gone to pot.
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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animagic (12/19/2017)
If I then import back into 3DXchange I see the same, as when I re-import back in iClone. It comes back as a merged prop, which makes me wonder if it is exported merged, which could cause problems in itself.
I haven't looked at the curve editor yet but the merging of stuff would change the behaviour most definately because of the fact that a root has been chosen etc. Is the curve editor dumping all the information into a single timeline? if so then this might be the cause of how its trying to solve this problem. (having not had a chance to play with it yet i am guessing but in knowing how iclone does the rest of things I am wondering if its dumping all the info into one giant timeline) Meaning that its one object one skeleton with one root and so everything is moving in relation to the root. Maybe the bones can be unparented from each other then and made into their own skeleton for each object and then it might work. If they are all linked to one giant bone make each object have its own skeleton and leave the bone big bone in (but unlinked) and experiment to see how to parent stuff to it or maybe you can remove the bone I dont know only some rooting around would let me figure it out .
I dont know if its merging them because they are all joined together or its merging a scene. If they are joined together in iclone well unjoin em and see if it behaved differently as well because if its seeing a main object as its parent in iclone well its gonna see it outside of it too.
The other issue might be you can figure out what is the root bone and change the euler on the entire skeleton and see if that changes the behaviour since the x.y,z is not the same in all platforms.
I dont know if this is a "bug or feature" though only playing with it will decide..and I am not in a position to play with it right now..:/
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By TonyDPrime - 8 Years Ago
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illusionLAB (12/19/2017)
Thanks TonyDP, I appreciate the effort but it's clear that the FBX export is broken so the only workaround for guaranteed results is to not use iClone until they fix it. Exporting individual animated props is not practical for complicated sets, and the relationship to the camera is still affected by scaling props in the scene. The workflow I was attempting required rendering the scene in iClone and then making an FBX export of the camera and 'set' which needs to overlay with the iClone render exactly. Having the camera and animated geo in Fusion 9 gives me access to the Z depth, World Space, Motion Vectors etc. For me it's a quick and more flexible way to add depth of field, motion blur, 3D atmosphere, particles etc. without long render times. I've been using that workflow with iClone for a while... it's only since the latest update it's all gone to pot.
I hear ya. I have my own scenes I like to export so seeing this post has given me a head start on some issues I may have encountered later. By no means EVER does a workaround = problem solved.
Just FeedBack Tracker is too slow, but everybody knows that. That is why the knowledge coming from these forums is so useful.
It is FAST!
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