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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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I am looking for more information on face rigging a character? How to attach the bones and where also the face painting.
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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The Gamebone Withepaper is very helpful
https://forum.reallusion.com/159769/Upcoming-G5-Game-Bone-Character-Promotion
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Thank you Vidi, I will read through the information.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625 (10/18/2017)
I am looking for more information on face rigging a character? How to attach the bones and where also the face painting.
Hey paulg625,
What app are you using to face rig in?
It will be extremely EZ to explain the process because have experience.
Clarity:
The Game Bone white paper is an excellent reference to follow,
BUT...
When first learning.... the fbx display of bones IS NOT how the rig is constructed.
(When Exported.... FBX creates NEW connections... Displaying all bones linked to the ROOT.)
Example.
You see all those bones (extending from the Head) to main bone.
When you actually set the bones in place.... it will look something like this:
Note:
Reallusion uses (25) facial bones...
~ I use (33) bones.... (fine-tuning) automated actions.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Then you "Link" the bones to the head.... (To Start).
BUT...
the bones are NOT (Zero-d Out)
In your rigging app..... You click the setting to "Freeze the Position and Rotations."
The bones are (Zero-d Out)..
BUT...
Their (Local Orientation) is NOT (Zero-d Out).
WHAT????
Stop right here and focus on this:
iClone bones (WILL INHERIT)
~ Position
~ Rotation
~ Scale
~ The action of "Freezing Positon & Rotation" ...DOES zero out the bones (LOCAL) transforms....BUT....
It does NOT zero out (LOCAL ORIENTATION).
What this means...
If a bones is "Directly Drawn from the parent to the child."
~ The child (SHARES) it's parents (Local Orientation)
Remember.... These bones are NOT DRAWN directly from it's parent.
~ They are simple placed in space.
~ Then Linked to their parent... (Head Bone).
~ The child (DOES NOT SHARE) it's parents (Local Orientation)
So Far... You froze their "Local" transforms to zero.
but... NOT their Local Orientations to MATCH their parents.
How do you (zero-out) their local orientation TO MATCH their parents????/
1. Give each bones a (New Parent)..... a null object, i.e. dummy or point helper.
2. Link the (NEW PARENTS) to the head.
ALL of the bones now have ZERO LOCAL ORIENTATION.
~ Skin it
~ 3dxch Ready
ROLL 'EM! 
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625,
I trust you clearly understand what I've said... if not.... I'll slow down and show you what I mean step by step.
Assuming you understand... Continuing... (Understanding iClone Rigging)
Look closely at the the Game Bone Lips (They are LINK together).
~ Move one.... linked lip bones follow.
I do NOT do this.
Why???
If you move one (Linked bone).. the other linked bones will follow.
~ What If you DON'T want them to follow.
Fine-Tuning:
I create and XTRA bone.... I call it "Lip Down"
~ I link the lower lip bones to the Lip Down bone.
~ Move the lip down bone.... the linked bones follow
BUT...
Move one of the lips (Parent - Point Helper) and you retain "Full Control"
Create quick and EZ morphs from here.
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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Thank you Vidi, I will read through the information.
Thank you, here is a figure that I had rig with this Guide
https://city.reallusion.com/ContentPreview.aspx?i=JIC8230bdf09cf4886a5
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By tripfreak - 7 Years Ago
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Thank you, but0fc0ursee for your explanations !
Unfortunately, for beginners it still sounds like a chinese menu. 
Recently, I found this new "Auto-Rigger" from Artell for Blender: LINK
At first sight, it looks exactly like Mixamo: LINK
But it also seems to include a relatively easy adjustable Face Rig:
Unfortunately, its not free, but the price already starts from 17.50 (Light) to max 38.50 $ (Pro): LINK
or directly from Artell for just 33 $: LINK
At least another possibility to create a face bone rig.
Leaves the question whether or not the FBX export from Blender will finally work without problems ?
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Hey Tripfreak, thanks for responding. I have lightwave and am dabbling now with Blender for rigging...
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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tripfreak (10/18/2017)
Thank you, but0fc0ursee for your explanations ! Unfortunately, for beginners it still sounds like a chinese menu. Recently, I found this new "Auto-Rigger" from Artell for Blender:
Sigh..... You learn nothing using Auto-Rigger.
paulg625,
How to Create a face bone rig?
You should change this to "How to use Auto-Rigger."
If this is what you want.... I'll step out of your way.
Enjoy
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Sorry ButOfCourse, I was rushing out the door and the way the page opened I somehow scrolled right past this post. Thank you for responding, I think I understand most everything you are talking about. I have a pretty good Rigging tutorial series from Lightwave. But he did a creature not a human. So...
but0fc0ursee (10/18/2017)
paulg625 (10/18/2017)
I am looking for more information on face rigging a character? How to attach the bones and where also the face painting.Hey paulg625, What app are you using to face rig in?
I have Lightwave and am dabbling now with Blender.
I love Lightwave but in some situations it won't play well with Iclone. ( but this could be due to me lacking experience. But, difficult to find others who have answers)
It will be extremely EZ to explain the process because have experience. Clarity: The Game Bone white paper is an excellent reference to follow, BUT... When first learning.... the fbx display of bones IS NOT how the rig is constructed. (When Exported.... FBX creates NEW connections... Displaying all bones linked to the ROOT.)Example. You see all those bones (extending from the Head) to main bone. When you actually set the bones in place.... it will look something like this: Note: Reallusion uses (25) facial bones... ~ I use (33) bones.... (fine-tuning) automated actions. ______________________________________________________________________________________Then you "Link" the bones to the head.... (To Start).BUT...the bones are NOT (Zero-d Out)In your rigging app..... You click the setting to "Freeze the Position and Rotations." The bones are (Zero-d Out)..
BUT...
Their (Local Orientation) is NOT (Zero-d Out).WHAT????
I think I understand this I might have to review my Rigging stuff. as to the Zeroing you have to do this to define the starting point of the local space right giving it a zero point Right?
Stop right here and focus on this:
iClone bones (WILL INHERIT)
~ Position
~ Rotation
~ Scale
~ The action of "Freezing Positon & Rotation" ...DOES zero out the bones (LOCAL) transforms....BUT....
It does NOT zero out (LOCAL ORIENTATION).
What this means...
If a bones is "Directly Drawn from the parent to the child."
~ The child (SHARES) it's parents (Local Orientation)
Remember.... These bones are NOT DRAWN directly from it's parent.
~ They are simple placed in space.
~ Then Linked to their parent... (Head Bone).
~ The child (DOES NOT SHARE) it's parents (Local Orientation)
So Far... You froze their "Local" transforms to zero.
but... NOT their Local Orientations to MATCH their parents.
How do you (zero-out) their local orientation TO MATCH their parents????/
1. Give each bones a (New Parent)..... a null object, i.e. dummy or point helper.
2. Link the (NEW PARENTS) to the head.
So Iclone will accept the null objects as part of the rig? What does it see them as ? is it directly as a Null?
ALL of the bones now have ZERO LOCAL ORIENTATION. ~ Skin it ~ 3dxch Ready ROLL 'EM!
OK , Semi- clear I will study a few general videos on Rigging in Blender today and get back with questions later.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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This is very interesting here. This creates a controller which will work inside iclone? Am I understanding this correctly.
but0fc0ursee (10/18/2017)
paulg625, I trust you clearly understand what I've said... if not.... I'll slow down and show you what I mean step by step. Assuming you understand... Continuing... (Understanding iClone Rigging) Look closely at the the Game Bone Lips (They are LINK together). ~ Move one.... linked lip bones follow. I do NOT do this. Why??? If you move one (Linked bone).. the other linked bones will follow. ~ What If you DON'T want them to follow. Fine-Tuning:I create and XTRA bone.... I call it "Lip Down" ~ I link the lower lip bones to the Lip Down bone. ~ Move the lip down bone.... the linked bones follow BUT... Move one of the lips (Parent - Point Helper) and you retain "Full Control" Create quick and EZ morphs from here.
This is great if I'm reading this right. Because in Lightwave you create control points I can't bring those in to Iclone but you add these extra bone to create control points.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Your right you don't learn as much with the auto rigging and in the end once you learn how to rig it will be as simple as auto rigging. But I still appreciate the help from all.
I am the guy who 3-4 years back felt like he was cheating using pre-bought motions for a character. So I started learning to do my own motions by hand creating walk cycles and studying every aspect of animation I could get my hands on. learning the twelve principles of animation established by the 9 old men. So I do want to learn rigging fully. But I do like to know all avenues. I do not mind, now using a mix of pre-bought motions, motion capture and hand created motions because I am wanting to tell stories in the end not just animate.
So please continue with sharing your knowledge on rigging....
but0fc0ursee (10/19/2017)
tripfreak (10/18/2017)
Thank you, but0fc0ursee for your explanations ! Unfortunately, for beginners it still sounds like a chinese menu. Recently, I found this new "Auto-Rigger" from Artell for Blender: Sigh..... You learn nothing using Auto-Rigger.paulg625,
How to Create a face bone rig?
You should change this to "How to use Auto-Rigger." If this is what you want.... I'll step out of your way. Enjoy
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625 (10/19/2017)
Your right you don't learn as much with the auto rigging and in the end once you learn how to rig it will be as simple as auto rigging. But I still appreciate the help from all.
I am the guy who 3-4 years back felt like he was cheating using pre-bought motions for a character. So I started learning to do my own motions by hand creating walk cycles and studying every aspect of animation I could get my hands on. learning the twelve principles of animation established by the 9 old men. So I do want to learn rigging fully. But I do like to know all avenues. I do not mind, now using a mix of pre-bought motions, motion capture and hand created motions because I am wanting to tell stories in the end not just animate.
So please continue with sharing your knowledge on rigging....
You words speak for themselves.
Animation:
~ Guilt: You felt bad for using pre-made motions.
~ Pride: You learned "HOW" to do it.
~ Result: You learned to animate.
STOP and really understand "HOW" you learned to animate.
1. You obtained EXCELLENT reference instruction.
1. You used ONE app to do it.
Pick your poison and stick with it.
~ Lightwave is your "Ace-Coon-Boom."...."Your Bees's Knee's.".... Your Cat's AZsprin"
~ Your go to software.... USE IT.
WHY????
...because you spent a lot to time "Learning HER TOOLS."
__________________________________________________________________________________
paulg625,
You are WILLING to get under-the-hood.
You follow directions, very well.
You have only ONE very large hurdle left to jump..... STOP JUMPING FROM SOFTWARE TO SOFTWARE.
....Today, it is TOO difficult. (For You)
It's hard enough to learn one apps tools.... let alone... learning another apps tool usage.
STICK WITH LIGHTWAVE.
_________________________________________________________________________________
paulg625,
Maintain your existing learning methods and apply THIS LOGIC:
Animation:
~ I want to do this and add that.
~ In "Lightwave" I would do this, then do that.
You KNOW how to make it happen because you KNOW how to use Lightwave's TOOLS.
...to be continued.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625,
RIGGING:
(Learn the LOGIC)
(Learn the TOOLS)
.....everything falls into place.
paulg625,
Just as you learned.... a motion is a motion..... how to add or subtract from it requires tool knowledge.
A bone is a bone and here is the LOGIC.
First and foremost.... DON'T JUMP THE GUN.
Yes, control points are created..
NO.... You can NOT use them in iClone (THE WAY THEY ARE)
Remember..... After all this.... you MUST adhere to what ICLONE NEEDS.
That is a simple FK skeleton skinned to bones. (No Control Points..... just FK bones and skin).
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625,
If you have the time to learn how to control (2) bones.... "That are NOT directly connected together...your rigging problems will be solved.
You will be able to rig ANYTHING.... human, creature, robot, etc., etc..
~ Place bones where YOU want them and zero them out for animation.
Logic: (Coordinate Axis)
Control a Parent and Child bone.
Remember, in ICLONE...
The child will inherit:
~ Position
~ Rotation
~ Scale
Example 1 (Easy)
1. Parent - Head bone
2. Child - Eyebrow bone
Link the eyebrow bone to the head bone.
Now if you move the eyebrow bone..... The Head bone WILL MOVE.
Control: You want to move the eyebrow bone and have the head REMAIN where it is.
BREAK the hierarchy.... add a null object.
Give the eyebrow bone a (Point Helper) as its parent.
Link the new parent (point helper) to the head.
NOW you can move the eyebrow and the head will NOT move.
You now have (2) points of control
~ Animate the bone
or
~ Animate the point helper
Let me know if you clearly understand and I'll continue.
NEXT: EYES
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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ButOfCourse: yes it is clear Ready for next step. Thank you this is great...
You are correct I have trouble and couldn't find info about Lightwave: The bad : I love Lightwave it is my go to software. (I want it to be my go to )
The Good: when I was checking out Blender I discovered what I believe is a solution to my problem in Lightwave...
But I agree I need to stick to my main workflow because I'm too old to learn 10 different softwares. Plus don't want to be Jack of all trades just master a couple... I will follow this advice....
Question: About the helper I know It would work in Lightwave as a controller. Will it be usable as controller in Iclone? Or just there in Iclone?
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625 (10/19/2017)
ButOfCourse: yes it is clear Ready for next step. Thank you this is great...
You are correct I have trouble and couldn't find info about Lightwave: The bad : I love Lightwave it is my go to software. (I want it to be my go to )
The Good: when I was checking out Blender I discovered what I believe is a solution to my problem in Lightwave...
But I agree I need to stick to my main workflow because I'm too old to learn 10 different softwares. Plus don't want to be Jack of all trades just master a couple... I will follow this advice....
Question: About the helper I know It would work in Lightwave as a controller. Will it be usable as controller in Iclone? Or just there in Iclone?
BINGO!... ...we are on the same page!
"Huston, Fire Up the Rockets!" 
I'm afraid to answer your question, pertaining to the use of controllers.
YES, Of Course You Can...
BUT....
Not right away..... you need to "Script the Bones."
THIS.... is not a beginner's task.
FIRST, you learn to control (2) bones, then you add (Advanced) functionality to those bones....
Then you embed the functionality into those bones with (Scripting).
Sir. I MUST be careful here or... "I will lose you."
why???
You need MORE Lightwave tool experience.
The only way to achieve it is... More Lightwave tutorials.
I will keep it simple... and the more you LEARN about Lightwave's tools,
The Sooner you advance to "Scripting Bones."
_________________________________________________________________________
paulg625,
Please maintain you course of action..... "Learning to Rig from SCRATCH."
I promise you.... you won't be sorry.
Again.... Controlling (2) bones with Lightwave's tools is the key!
I've only begun showing you "HOW" to control a bone.
1. The Brow example is "Position" control. (The simpliest)
2. The Eyes.... is where you REALLY start learning.
3D Rotation... is a Mother... to FULLY grasp (when you first start)
BUT....
I will make it easy for you.
Note:
If you continue to follow me..... YOU will slowly begin to see (FIX'S) for iClone.
You will solve many problems iClone users have, TODAY.
Simply by learning how to control (2) bones. 
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625,
Crossroads.... there comes a time when serious artist (with a limited budget) MUST decide which way to go.
....meaning:
Goal: (CGI Animated Clip)
You want to save money... You learn to:
~ Model
~ Rig
~ Texture
~ Animate
~ VFX / Post
Use iClone and accept all of the awesome functionality SHE provides...
THEN.... make it better.
How??
I need to put a face rig on this one.
or...
I need to SCRIPT this baby.
Crossroads: "Do you learn a scripting language and script a face rig, or do you learn to Rig and create it yourself???"
First, I am NO programmer.
BUT....
I can script the chit out of bones. (Using MaxScript)
why?
I did it over and over (1 million times)... copying and pasting script.... until it sunk in!
I can briefly explain the function and methods used to achieve an interactive execution of the script,
BUT....
I do NOT get into "SCHEMEA" or whatever the heck it's called.
I can NOT come close to people like "KellyToons", "animagic" and the likes.
I learned to rig for production.
with that said....
3D Rotations:
Certain rules remain constant.... No Matter what 3d software you use.
Bones: Parent / Child relationship (Hands & Fingers)
(X,Y,Z) .... the middle axis is (Y)
Rotate the child (BEYOND 90 degrees) and the bone will FLIP.
One way to fix this.... "Change the Axis Order" (From X,Y,Z) to (X,Z,Y)
Learn your software's tools.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625,
Eye Rotation:.... also introduces you to building Facial User Interface... Like Reallusion's Face Puppet.
...using the previous example, "Brow and Head"
The Eye bone Placement is CRUCIAL. The eyebones (local pivot) MUST be centered to the eyeball.
Question: Is the eyeball round, half sphere'ish or PART OF THE HEAD????
Answer: Is does NOT matter. What matters is "Where You Place the Eye bones LOCAL PIVOT" The eye bone MUST move the eye vertices correctly....
I'm going to show you "The Most COMPLEX situation"
(A once piece mesh) this is how you can properly rig the eye:  This is where many users run into problems. (Exporting OBJ)  Remember: DO NOT DELETE ANYTHING... Do this: ~ Copy / Clone the object. Copy it to prevent mistakes ruining your original.~ Select all of...(ONE EYEBALL FACES) ~ Invert the Selection (In Max its Ctrl +I) ~ then "HIDE UNSELECTED"  Now you need to set the eyeballs pivot (Correctly) from here...  To Here:  Note the "Left Orthographic View"  Now you create an "Eye Bone"  Now "Center" the eye bone to the eyeballs (LOCAL PIVOT) 
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee (10/19/2017)
paulg625 (10/19/2017)
ButOfCourse:
Question: About the helper I know It would work in Lightwave as a controller. Will it be usable as controller in Iclone? Or just there in Iclone?BINGO!... ...we are on the same page! "Huston, Fire Up the Rockets!" I'm afraid to answer your question, pertaining to the use of controllers. YES, Of Course You Can... BUT.... Not right away..... you need to "Script the Bones." THIS.... is not a beginner's task.
I understand
FIRST, you learn to control (2) bones, then you add (Advanced) functionality to those bones....
Then you embed the functionality into those bones with (Scripting).
Sir. I MUST be careful here or... "I will lose you."
why???
You need MORE Lightwave tool experience.
The only way to achieve it is... More Lightwave tutorials.
I will keep it simple... and the more you LEARN about Lightwave's tools,
The Sooner you advance to "Scripting Bones."
_________________________________________________________________________
I will work the next few weeks as I get time reviewing my Rigging tutorials and experimenting with a simple 2 bone rig.
paulg625,
Please maintain you course of action..... "Learning to Rig from SCRATCH."
I promise you.... you won't be sorry.
Again.... Controlling (2) bones with Lightwave's tools is the key!
I've only begun showing you "HOW" to control a bone.
1. The Brow example is "Position" control. (The simpliest)
2. The Eyes.... is where you REALLY start learning.
3D Rotation... is a Mother... to FULLY grasp (when you first start)
BUT....
I will make it easy for you.
Note:
If you continue to follow me..... YOU will slowly begin to see (FIX'S) for iClone.
You will solve many problems iClone users have, TODAY.
Simply by learning how to control (2) bones.
Cool sounds great!!!
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee (10/19/2017)
paulg625, Crossroads.... there comes a time when serious artist (with a limited budget) MUST decide which way to go. ....meaning: Goal: (CGI Animated Clip) You want to save money... You learn to: ~ Model ~ Rig ~ Texture ~ Animate ~ VFX / Post Use iClone and accept all of the awesome functionality SHE provides... THEN.... make it better. How?? I need to put a face rig on this one. or... I need to SCRIPT this baby. Crossroads: "Do you learn a scripting language and script a face rig, or do you learn to Rig and create it yourself???" First, I am NO programmer. BUT.... I can script the chit out of bones. (Using MaxScript) why? I did it over and over (1 million times)... copying and pasting script.... until it sunk in! I can briefly explain the function and methods used to achieve an interactive execution of the script, BUT.... I do NOT get into "SCHEMEA" or whatever the heck it's called. I can NOT come close to people like "KellyToons", "animagic" and the likes. I learned to rig for production. with that said.... 3D Rotations: Certain rules remain constant.... No Matter what 3d software you use. Bones: Parent / Child relationship (Hands & Fingers)(X,Y,Z) .... the middle axis is (Y) Rotate the child (BEYOND 90 degrees) and the bone will FLIP. One way to fix this.... "Change the Axis Order" (From X,Y,Z) to (X,Z,Y) Learn your software's tools.
Sounds good Although not versed in scripting language and will have to learn the syntax. I do program and have for many years so when we reach this crossroad I will be ready willing and able...
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625 (10/19/2017)
Sounds good Although not versed in scripting language and will have to learn the syntax. I do program and have for many years so when we reach this crossroad I will be ready willing and able...
I've met many programmers.... and those whom learn to rig.... Become GODS of CGI
You got this hands down! You just don't know it.
Here's what I've learned....
I do NOT know syntax from Cynthia!
...but I know how to control a bone. 
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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9/2017)[/b]
paulg625,
Eye Rotation:.... also introduces you to building Facial User Interface... Like Reallusion's Face Puppet.
...using the previous example, "Brow and Head"
The Eye bone Placement is CRUCIAL. The eyebones (local pivot) MUST be centered to the eyeball. [/quote]
Yes, I have watched a video on this for lightwave. I will find it and re watch for the specifics for aligning in Lightwave
Question: Is the eyeball round, half sphere'ish or PART OF THE HEAD????
Answer: Is does NOT matter. What matters is "Where You Place the Eye bones LOCAL PIVOT" The eye bone MUST move the eye vertices correctly....
I'm going to show you "The Most COMPLEX situation"
(A once piece mesh) this is how you can properly rig the eye:
This is where many users run into problems. (Exporting OBJ)
Remember: DO NOT DELETE ANYTHING...
Do this:
~ Copy / Clone the object.
Copy it to prevent mistakes ruining your original.
~ Select all of...(ONE EYEBALL FACES)
~ Invert the Selection (In Max its Ctrl +I)
~ then "HIDE UNSELECTED"
Now you need to set the eyeballs pivot (Correctly)
from here...
To Here:
Note the "Left Orthographic View"
Now you create an "Eye Bone"
Now "Center" the eye bone to the eyeballs (LOCAL PIVOT)
Now when you skin the character the eye rotates correctly.
All makes sense Thanks so much, looking forward to more. I appreciate all your help!!!
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee (10/19/2017)
[quote]paulg625 (10/19/2017)
Sounds good Although not versed in scripting language and will have to learn the syntax. I do program and have for many years so when we reach this crossroad I will be ready willing and able...
I've met many programmers.... and those whom learn to rig.... Become GODS of CGI
They quickly become, "Technical Directors."
...because they can read it... write it... walk the walk and talk the talk!
You got this hands down! You just don't know it.
Here's what I've learned....
I do NOT know syntax from Cynthia!
...but I know how to control a bone.
Please understand that I've shown you "some" basic rigging practices, but there is much more to go over.
~ Changing Controllers
* TCB
* Quaternion
* Euler
BEZIER and (3-Point Controls)
....and more.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee (10/19/2017)
but0fc0ursee (10/19/2017)
[quote]paulg625 (10/19/2017)
Sounds good Although not versed in scripting language and will have to learn the syntax. I do program and have for many years so when we reach this crossroad I will be ready willing and able...I've met many programmers.... and those whom learn to rig.... Become GODS of CGI They quickly become, "Technical Directors." ...because they can read it... write it... walk the walk and talk the talk!You got this hands down! You just don't know it.
Here's what I've learned.... I do NOT know syntax from Cynthia!
...but I know how to control a bone.
Please understand that I've shown you "some" basic rigging practices, but there is much more to go over. ~ Changing Controllers * TCB * Quaternion * Euler BEZIER and (3-Point Controls) ....and more.
Yes I understand much remains to be learned. Looking forward to learning... Thanks for sharing you knowledge....
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625 (10/19/2017)
..Yes I understand much remains to be learned. Looking forward to learning... Thanks for sharing you knowledge....
You Welcome!
Are you able to add facial bones to a character?
Example:
iClone requires a simple FK Skeleton.
To add face bones:
~ Set them to fit the area of skin.
~ Give each bone a point helper (as its Parent)
~ Link the helpers to the Head bone.
Skin It...
POOF!
_____________________________________________________________________
EDIT:
The reason you want to add point helpers is for the "Expression Editor."
To raise the inner or outter Brow.... Move the bone.
Please let me know if your able to follow me.
...so I can wrap this up by showing you "The Final Piece." (Jaw and Tongue bones)
If you're able to follow... I can show you how to add "Realism" to the Mouth.
~ When the Jaw opens... the mouth corner bones moves downward (approx. 1/3 the distance of the Jaw's rotation)
~ This enables very nice Phonemes & Viseme morphs.
You add this functionality.... "Weighting" an "Orientation Constraint" (Between 2 Objects)
It's super EZ...
1. You give the Jaw bone a (2ND) point helper.
2. You apply an Orientation Constraint (to the 2ND point helper) and the Jaw bone.
This means you are constraining the (2nd point helper) to the Jaw bone.
When the Jaw rotates open....
~ You WEIGHT the (2nd) point helper = 33.5 percent.
~ You WEIGHT the (Jaw bone) = 66.5 percent.
You can use Orientation constraints in iClone... but you can NOT "Weight" the value between (2) bones or objects.
This opens up a whole new world.
Feedback Tracker
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee (10/19/2017)
paulg625 (10/19/2017)
..Yes I understand much remains to be learned. Looking forward to learning... Thanks for sharing you knowledge....You Welcome!
Are you able to add facial bones to a character? Example: iClone requires a simple FK Skeleton. To add face bones: ~ Set them to fit the area of skin. ~ Give each bone a point helper (as its Parent) ~ Link the helpers to the Head bone. Skin It... POOF!
_____________________________________________________________________ EDIT: The reason you want to add point helpers is for the "Expression Editor." To raise the inner or outter Brow.... Move the bone. Please let me know if your able to follow me. ...so I can wrap this up by showing you "The Final Piece." (Jaw and Tongue bones)
Yes with you so far.
If you're able to follow... I can show you how to add "Realism" to the Mouth.
~ When the Jaw opens... the mouth corner bones moves downward (approx. 1/3 the distance of the Jaw's rotation)
~ This enables very nice Phonemes & Viseme morphs.
Now you place many more bones around the mouth area. Would you only have to influence the two in the very corner bones?
You add this functionality.... "Weighting" an "Orientation Constraint" (Between 2 Objects) It's super EZ... 1. You give the Jaw bone a (2ND) point helper. 2. You apply an Orientation Constraint (to the 2ND point helper) and the Jaw bone. This means you are constraining the (2nd point helper) to the Jaw bone.
Ok This second helper, I think it's helping to move the corners of the mouth. Is this right? So in the bone hierarchy is the helper is it before the Jaw bone to head or between the Jaw and mouth corners? Or outside this to allow you to control jaw separate and the helper is attached to both so when you move the helper it moves both based on the influence of the settings you describe? Want to make sure I understand the placement of the second helper...
When the Jaw rotates open.... ~ You WEIGHT the (2nd) point helper = 33.5 percent. ~ You WEIGHT the (Jaw bone) = 66.5 percent. You can use Orientation constraints in iClone... but you can NOT "Weight" the value between (2) bones or objects. This opens up a whole new world.
Feedback Tracker
I will be studying this entire document for some time as I move forward glad you had me start the post it will always be easy to find and review as I am studying this.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Update: Started re-watching my Lightwave rigging tutorial series this morning. And to reset the local XYZ coordinates in Lightwave it has a short cut so it is a fairly simple process of resetting the local zero and than resting the bone ( as they call it).
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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I will be studying this entire document for some time as I move forward glad you had me start the post it will always be easy to find and review as I am studying this. Create the following bones or use a character with the given: ~ Head bone ~ Neck bone ~ Jaw bone
Create a point helper, also.
Align the "Jaw_Ctrl" to the "Jaw Bone" ....in Position & Rotation (Pivot to Pivot) Pivot to Pivot means from the point helpers pivot point to the jaw bones pivot point.
Link the Jaw bone to the "Point Helper" "Name the point helper "Jaw_Ctrl"
Turn On "3D Snap".. set it to "SNAP TO PIVOT" Change your coordinates to "LOCAL"
Now snap the Jaw_Ctrl to the Head bone. Then LINK the Jaw_Ctrl to the Head bone.
When you rotate the "Jaw_Ctrl".... the Jaw bone follows its Parent.
Now PLEASE F O C U S: When you rotate the "Jaw bone".... the "Jaw_Ctrl" DOES NOT ROTATE.
In iClone you have a "Reach Constraint" ~ You constrain (1) object to another object. ~ You have an adjustment to control the "Value"
Here you learn "New Functionality" You constrain between (2 OR MORE) objects... if you want to.
LOGIC: Remember.... Rotating the Jaw bone... the helper does NOT rotate..
HERE WE GO:
You create another (point helper)... ~ Make it Larger and name it "Jaw_Orient ~ Now Link the "Jaw_Orient to the "Jaw_Ctrl" You rotate the "JAW BONE" ....set a key Reset the Timeline.
Select the "New" Jaw_Orient helper.... Give it an Orientation Constraint. Constrain it to the "JAW bone"
What occurs now? Remember.... when you rotate the jaw bone... the Jaw_Ctrl does NOT transform.
The new jaw_orient WILL be automatically set to a (50-50) weight value. This means it will STAY 50% between each object.
This is where you FIX ICLONE ANIMATION. how?
The new Jaw_Orient helper is constrained to (1) object.... the jaw bone  Give that baby ANOTHER object to constrain to. Make the (2nd) object the.... JAW_CTRL.  Set the weight to as follows: ~ Give the Jaw bone (66.5%) weighting ~ Give the Jaw_Ctrl (33.5%) weighting  Now LINK the mouth corner helpers to the.... Jaw_Orient.  The mouth corners now move 33% of the jaw's rotation.  |
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Still with you ... Master Rigger... I'll hold questions because seems the next step would have answered them anyway...
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625 (10/20/2017)
Still with you ... Master Rigger... I'll hold questions because seems the next step would have answered them anyway...
Please.... DON'T hesitate asking questions. The more you clearly understand.. the easier it gets.
PLEASE learn LightWave's tools.
...because some complex steps are coming up soon and "I DON'T" know how LightWave or Blender's tools work,
Example: (Once this is understood.... Your EYES will open really WIDE with excitement)
NOT NOW, but soon.... I need to you to link two objects (PARAMETERS) together.
~ This is NOT the same as linking objects together.
Clarity: (Advanced Steps).... slowly creeping in. "I DON'T want to overwhelm you."
Bone Transform TRACKS (X,Y,Z)
Goal:
Rotate (1) bone on it's... for example....(LOCAL Y_Rotation track) and MAKE another bone transform / move on it's (LOCAL X_POSITION) track.
....think..... we are discussing "How to make the eyelids follow the eye's rotations"
1. The Eye bone rotate's...say Look Up...
2. BOTH EyeLids... MOVE slightly (CONTROLLED BY YOU)
~ Get it. 
_________________________________________________________________________________________
PRO TOOLS: (Move one object and control numerous ACTIONS)
Terminology is different, but THE SAME RESULTS are achieved.
~ In Maya.... this is known as "Event Driven"
Object Moved... known as the "Driver"
Objects controlled actions.... known as "Driven"
~ In Max.... You use "Reaction Manager."
Max terminology.... Master and Slave.
BUT... Max has a alternative way known as "Wire-Parmeters"
...Where you control one objects TRACK and transform other objects.... TRACKS.
"Wire-Parameter" is super EZ to use.
I have no idea how LightWave or Blender does this...
BUT...
I know both programs.... EASILY perform the SAME operation.
For now... I will keep it very simple.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee (10/20/2017)
paulg625 (10/20/2017)
Still with you ... Master Rigger... I'll hold questions because seems the next step would have answered them anyway...Please.... DON'T hesitate asking questions. The more you clearly understand.. the easier it gets.
I will definitely ask questions.
PLEASE learn LightWave's tools.
...because some complex steps are coming up soon and "I DON'T" know how LightWave or Blender's tools work,
Yes, diving back into Lightwave, especially on the rigging side. I have bounced around a lot (sometimes to much) (I thank you for the slap back to reality) I have a ton to learn but believe I have a good set of tools for a work flow just need to focus on a few tools. Right now will focus on lightwave and especially rigging.
Example: (Once this is understood.... Your EYES will open really WIDE with excitement) NOT NOW, but soon.... I need to you to link two objects (PARAMETERS) together. ~ This is NOT the same as linking objects together. Clarity: (Advanced Steps).... slowly creeping in. "I DON'T want to overwhelm you." Bone Transform TRACKS (X,Y,Z) Goal: Rotate (1) bone on it's... for example....( LOCAL Y_Rotation track) and MAKE another bone transform / move on it's ( LOCAL X_POSITION) track. ....think..... we are discussing "How to make the eyelids follow the eye's rotations"
1. The Eye bone rotate's...say Look Up...
2. BOTH EyeLids... MOVE slightly (CONTROLLED BY YOU) ~ Get it.
_
I think I understand this is a layer between scripting and objects or bones, pre-built scripts which we access as functions. When I'm working with a touch screen it has certain features built into it. Example I drop a button on the screen I don't have to create a script to tell the button to turn on a bit. I find the function and just tell it what bit to turn on. this way I'm not having to code a simple function over and over. and only writing code for special or out of the box stuff.
________________________________________________________________________________________ PRO TOOLS: (Move one object and control numerous ACTIONS) Terminology is different, but THE SAME RESULTS are achieved. ~ In Maya.... this is known as "Event Driven"
Object Moved... known as the "Driver"
Objects controlled actions.... known as "Driven"
~ In Max.... You use "Reaction Manager."
Max terminology.... Master and Slave.BUT... Max has a alternative way known as "Wire-Parmeters" ...Where you control one objects TRACK and transform other objects.... TRACKS. "Wire-Parameter" is super EZ to use. I have no idea how LightWave or Blender does this... BUT... I know both programs.... EASILY perform the SAME operation. For now... I will keep it very simple.
Ok Still looking through Lightwave materiel, and a few videos, to find what they call these functions. I have found a few possibilities I am researching.
Funny it is a lot like what I do for programming a controller and touch screen set up. I can write code to do complex tasks but certain functions are pre-built and can be used with setting parameters or writing an expressions or both.
I know lightwave as a place for expressions but until i read about this don't want to assume it is what I am looking for. I also found some pre-built functions it can use on object one is a follow function but again I need to read and study more to make sure I am looking at the right thing.
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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If you want rigging for iClone, follow the RL whitepaper, no matter which program you use. Controller, driven, helper or whatever is not needed in this case .and will not work in iClone. Even it would be created extra Nodes without functions
In the Whitepaper you get a feeling of the Bone Hirachy and how you can connect it to the iClone system. It works! I think the guide will more help than any phrases.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Thanks Vidi,
I plan on looking at all the options suggested here and decide what works best for my work flow. I need to know what will get me the results I want and need. Iclone fits into this work flow but I also want to explore how to use it with other options. For example we don't have a graph editor. ( I know this is coming) Lightwave does and I know some of the basics how to use it. Another function in Lightwave has is Motion Mixer. Iclone doesn't have this function.
Now I'm not griping really just stating a fact. Iclone is a tool like others it has its strengths and weaknesses. I want to capitalize on all my tools strengths and use them the best way possible.
The information ButOfcOurse is sharing flows directly into what Lightwave is capable of and I am wanting to learn to use it and find ways to use it in support of and together with Iclone. As these are both programs which are part of my work flow.
I understand what you are saying about the possibility of Iclone not being the end of the workflow is all possibilities. My question is does it have to be at the end of the workflow in every situation?
Honestly for me I doubt either of these two programs will ever be my end of workflow anyway. As mine will typically be AE and Premiere Pro...
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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What I say is, why start more complicated than needed .the Guide will give you a Idea in General.and will not overwhelm you with tech blablub.
Only a novice would be by swooopish impressed,
No worrie you will no missing a part.
A rig created for iclone is compatible with another 3D Aplication.
That is not only specific Knowledge only for iClone
If you then want connect Bones with Controller or create a GUI ,,,, , it is not helpful to get Informations about 3D Max if you want use Lightwave. That are native Program functions and workarounds and depends which Programm you use.
Therfore start simple and understand first the the basic of the concept behind.
The Rest will grow automatically with Experience.
btw I start with this Guide as a novize and now I get even money for Rigging
Also these Book is a must have
https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Staring-Facial-Modeling-Animation/dp/0470609907/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1508592718&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Stop+Staring%3A+Facial+Modeling+and+Animation+Done+Right+3+%2C+Kindle+Edition+von+Jason+Osipa+%28Autor%29
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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vidi (10/21/2017)
What I say is, why start more complicated than needed .the Guide will give you a Idea in General.and will not overwhelm you with tech blablub.
Only a novice would be by swooopish impressed,
As I said Thank you for you input. I just think we have different perspectives here. Because what I have been told isn't to me a lot of tech Blablub. It has been pretty clear and simple. I know I'm no expert but I have understood what I have been told and it seems clear to me. I also hear what you are saying to. But I have rigged several characters in the past it has just been a while. and even in the end if this is above my skill levels it won't always be and here it is a record for me to follow. and I can tell you It has helped me discover several tools and ways of doing things I have done in other programs I used in the past but didn't know were available to me in the ones I'm using now...
No worrie you will no missing a part.
A rig created for iclone is compatible with another 3D Aplication.
I know Iclone rig is compatible with other software. But bringing them out can be a problem due to differences in how FBX works in the program. So for example this is one of the things I have learned from all of this is a work around to one of the problems I was having during this...
That is not only specific Knowledge only for iClone
If you then want connect Bones with Controller or create a GUI ,,,, , it is not helpful to get Informations about 3D Max if you want use Lightwave. That are native Program functions and workarounds and depends which Programm you use.
I disagree with on this because Lightwave does have similar functions as to what I have been shown in 3D max. I Don't see a problem with getting it to work with Lightwave in a similar fashion.
And above all I will always go my own way and make my own decisions about information... For example the book you recommend I will be adding it to my library (Thank you)
But on the same note your making a pretty big assumptions of what I know and don't know...
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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It is allowed what pleases
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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It's interesting to see the different philosophies revealed in this thread... I leave rigging to others...
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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I understand, I don't plan on doing rigging for everything I do either. But I like to know and understand how to Because sometimes things don't work the way you want. For example when I first started learning through learning I discovered I could modify a rig to make more usable. Now I haven't messed with rigging in some time ( nor was I ever an expert) But knowing some Ideas on the how it works provides available options.
I did the same thing when learning to animate I felt weird (like I was cheating) when using a premade animation. So learned to create my own. Now as I moved forward learning more and knowing my goal was to tell stories more then just to animate. I said it's ok to use premade animations as long as the story was mine. But knowing how to animate by hand allows me to make the motions unique to the character and work on between motions. So in the end it still makes my animations better IMHO. I am approaching rigging the same way....
animagic (10/21/2017)
It's interesting to see the different philosophies revealed in this thread... I leave rigging to others...
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I'm with you on the animation. I use a combination of clips and key-framing and possible Mocap in the future. I also like to tell stories, but as there are only so many hours in the day, I leave some stuff to those more capable.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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...delete duplicate post.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625,
You are a Programmer... and once you learn what I have to share... using LightWave's tools...
You will do what 99.9% of us.... CANNOT do. (SCRIPT).
Example:
I think I understand this is a layer between scripting and objects or bones, pre-built scripts which we access as functions. When I'm working with a touch screen it has certain features built into it. Example I drop a button on the screen I don't have to create a script to tell the button to turn on a bit. I find the function and just tell it what bit to turn on. this way I'm not having to code a simple function over and over. and only writing code for special or out of the box stuff.
Your response is EXCELLENT (SPOT ON!)
The (Pre-Built) functionality is what you use in ANY GAME ENGINE OR 3D APP to "Raise-the-Bar."
I must copy and paste what others do to complete this.
YOU.... simply need to learn "What's Available" and WRITE IT YOURSELF!
....amazing results "When you learn LightWave's Tools."
Ms. Vidi pointed out Jason Osipa's Rig... Stop Staring.
My rigs are all built this way:
NOW.... you will see what I asked you earlier.... How to Connect THIS?
Remember, I am NO programmer... you are.
PLEASE find LightWave's method of doing THIS!!!!
Logic:
Move the Jaw (CIRCLE) "on its LOCAL (POSTION) Y AXIS.... and make the Jaw BONE... rotate "with PRECISION" on it's LOCAL (ROTATION) Z AXIS.
You assign the Jaw_cir local Y track:
Transform - Position - Y Position TRACK.
Assing the Jaw_bone Z_Rotation Track.
Assign a (2-Way) Connection: Move either object and the other follows.
Now move the Jaw (circle) UP... in its LOCAL Y Position Axis and what happens???
The MOUTH rotates in the wrong direction. 
Fine-Tune Control:
Add a (- "negative sign") in the expressiion)
The mouth and cir control transform correctly..
BUT....
The mouth rotates WAAAY too fast.
Fine-Tun Control:
Add a "Multiplier" in the equation."Multiply it by (.2)"
Now SHE works beautifully.
I take this a step further and MATCH ICLONE'S "Expression Editor"
~ Pose to Pose
~ Phoneme to Phoneme
~ Viseme to Viseme
DON'T listen to them when they say... this is NOT needed.
You are learning "FINE-TUNE CONTROL"
Ready for Motion Mixing and FACIAL MOCAP!
Hope this Help
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625,
Look closely.... this is NOT simple morph animation..... THE BONES FOLLOW THE MORPHS.
You can export this ANYWHERE.
~ After Effects
~ HitFilm
~ Premiere Pro / Vegas
~ Game Engines
ANYWHERE!
..and they tell you... the steps I explain are not necessary.
Your choice.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625,
If you have time to learn how to make bones... properly follow morphs/Blendshapes....
FACEWARE...
You break out the curve editor and simply copy each FW morph animation TRACK (Position & Rotation).
~ Paste it (as an INSTANCE) to your morphs.
...Remember, you made the bones follow your morphs.
Result:
POOF! ...you just re-targeted FW mocap.... to BONES.
A professional technique use throughout CGI.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Thank you very much butOfcOursee. This is really cool. I know it will take time to learn the ins and outs of how to do in lightwave but now I see a goal. And I'm not afraid because it is amazing how much this is like setting up a control software system. It makes sense of course because it is based on modern OOP programing which is one of my stomping grounds. I will continue working on reviewing rigging basics and start looking into creating facial rig controllers in Lightwave it will make a great compliment to Iclone and my work flow...
but0fc0ursee (10/21/2017)
paulg625, Look closely.... this is NOT simple morph animation..... THE BONES FOLLOW THE MORPHS. You can export this ANYWHERE. ~ After Effects ~ HitFilm ~ Premiere Pro / Vegas ~ Game Engines ANYWHERE! ..and they tell you... the steps I explain are not necessary. Your choice.
I do see the potential because I have seen a few cool characters which have no rigging or morph which I would like to use for one reason or another. Now (when I get up to speed) bang drop in a bone rig and like you said copy the curves over and this non morph prep character is talking and expressing!!!
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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Sir,
You are most welcome.
Quick Question:
Rigging: "What's you ultimate goal?"
~ Animate using only iClone?
~ Blending Motions using only iClone?
Rigging for iClone is very EZ
~ Draw out an FK Skeleton
~ Add facial bones and point helpers
~ Link the bones
~ Zero them Out
~ Skin it
Then you:
~ Select all of the bones and point helpers and (Set A Key).
...this maintains your starting pose... TPose
Move away from your first frame (where the TPose key is set) and....
~ Move the bones and helpers to create your first morph target.
~ Then move back to your starting frame (to RE-GAIN your TPose)
..then move to frame 2 or 3 and create your 2nd morph target.
....repeat until finished.
~ Off to 3dxchange.
______________________________________________________________________________
The above is all you need to import characters to iClone.
BUT....
If you plan on: (Adding functionality that iClone can NOT do)
~ BLENDNG IK-FK
~ Using LightWave's "Motion Mixer"
~ Orientation constraining (2) or more objects.
Please say so, now.
why?
I will show you how to "Isolate" your rig.
LightWave's Mix Motions:
You may want to change one arm or leg motion to another one.
This is (Re-Targeting) animation.
An iClone avatar bones:
~ Shoulder
~ Upperarm
~ Forearm
~ Hand and Fingers
....are all linked (Directly) together.
__________________________________________________________________
Changing that limbs animation WILL cause undesired reslults.
why?
Remember: Parent - Child
~ The child inherits Position - Rotation - Scale.
The Shoulder and Upperarm bones do NOT have the SAME (Local Orientation Axis)
Negative scale WILL transfer from the shoulder to the upperam.
(chitty result) 
______________________________________________________________
The iClone bones are directly linked together and WILL "Transfer Negative Scale."
You inhibit this behavior with Rigging. You break the FK hierarchy with point helpers.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee (10/22/2017)
Sir,
You are most welcome.
Quick Question:
Rigging: "What's you ultimate goal?"
~ Animate using only iClone?
~ Blending Motions using only iClone?
Rigging goal: Understand rigging well enough to build or modify a rig in order to accomplish or speed up my work flow.
Animation: Although I want to limit the programs in my work flow and Iclone is a major part of my work flow I plan on using which ever tool I have available to accomplish my goal.
Blending motions: Same as above which ever tool gets the job don in the end. No single program is a Swiss army knife... But still want to limit my work flow to a few main programs. Iclone, Lightwave, Adobe and in a pinch Blender.
Rigging for iClone is very EZ
~ Draw out an FK Skeleton
~ Add facial bones and point helpers
~ Link the bones
~ Zero them Out
~ Skin it
Then you:
~ Select all of the bones and point helpers and (Set A Key).
...this maintains your starting pose... TPose
Move away from your first frame (where the TPose key is set) and....
~ Move the bones and helpers to create your first morph target.
~ Then move back to your starting frame (to RE-GAIN your TPose)
..then move to frame 2 or 3 and create your 2nd morph target.
....repeat until finished.
~ Off to 3dxchange.
______________________________________________________________________________
The above is all you need to import characters to iClone.
BUT....
If you plan on: (Adding functionality that iClone can NOT do)
~ BLENDNG IK-FK
~ Using LightWave's "Motion Mixer"
~ Orientation constraining (2) or more objects.
Yes this part interests me.
Please say so, now.
why?
I will show you how to "Isolate" your rig.
LightWave's Mix Motions:
You may want to change one arm or leg motion to another one.
This is (Re-Targeting) animation.
Re-targeting This I want to understand, this seem vital to know. Through my recent study I have touched on this...
An iClone avatar bones: ~ Shoulder ~ Upperarm ~ Forearm ~ Hand and Fingers ....are all linked (Directly) together. __________________________________________________________________ Changing that limbs animation WILL cause undesired reslults. why? Remember: Parent - Child ~ The child inherits Position - Rotation - Scale. The Shoulder and Upperarm bones do NOT have the SAME (Local Orientation Axis) Negative scale WILL transfer from the shoulder to the upperam. (chitty result) ______________________________________________________________ The iClone bones are directly linked together and WILL "Transfer Negative Scale." You inhibit this behavior with Rigging. You break the FK hierarchy with point helpers.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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Re-targeting This I want to understand, this seem vital to know. Through my recent study I have touched on this...
What did you learn?
_______________________________________________________________________
Note:
My animation question was to explain that "Animating" and "Blending Motions" are two different things.
If you really intend on "Animating".... you need to build "Controllers & Advanced Functionality" on you rig. (To speed up production)
...if not..
Create a simple FK skeleton and blend motions in iClone.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee (10/26/2017)
Re-targeting This I want to understand, this seem vital to know. Through my recent study I have touched on this... What did you learn? _______________________________________________________________________ Note: My animation question was to explain that "Animating" and "Blending Motions" are two different things. If you really intend on "Animating".... you need to build "Controllers & Advanced Functionality" on you rig. (To speed up production) ...if not.. Create a simple FK skeleton and blend motions in iClone.
Yes I understand what you mean. I want to do the job which would require a dozen animators. I don't know how to do that much using just animation skills I need to cheat and use Mocap and pre-created animation and then use my animation skills to make it flow correctly and also to look correct for an animated character. Because sometimes mocap looks fake when applied to an animated character, Disney found this when trying to use roto-scoping and the characters seemed to float which is were some of the 12 rules of animation came from.
So I believe to do what I want to do. I have to use this workflow to create what I want to accomplish. What I need to have is a bit of both worlds due to my intended goals. I need to be able to use some blended motions and do some animations. So I need good controllable rigs but also need to be able to use some of the retargeting functions. So I can use each tool I have to the fullest in my intended workflow, to produce the best animations I an capable of. When I was learning to animate it was slow process and would have been quicker if I understood then how to create controls and functionality.
Due to my current goals which is to tell stories and I'm working primary on my own. I say primary because I do purchase assets from other artist. But in the end it's just me. So with the scope of my Dreams I need to be able to animate dozens or more characters.
So I feel I must use pre-packaged or Mocaped animations as a skeletal base then tweak this to an acceptable level of realism and I don't want it to look like packaged animations. Plus for example in the animation I currently working on I am animating a cat. I will have to create a lot of the specific animations myself.
Right now I am looking at 3 primary avenues of getting into lightwave animation: The first and My primary interest is to bring in my Mocap animations as FBX re-target the data onto a well rigged character so I can refine and tweak the motions. Or build the motion if needed on a good rig.
If I was 20 and looking for a career I would just study rigging and animation. Not 50 looking to chase a dream and have a indie hobby business. I need to be able to wear all the needed hats required to create a full animated short. My actual goal is to create a short series or one really good movie length item a year. But I must learn to crawl before learning to fly.
If you have methods using only animation skills to accomplish these goals and would be willing to share. I am willing to learn as my cup is empty and ready to be filled. As I am trying to learn as much as I can to help achieve my goals. I truly appreciate all you have shared with me so far.
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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I need to cheat and use Mocap and pre-created animation and then use my animation skills to make it flow correctly and also to look correct for an animated character. That's.... NOT cheating.... that's how we learn. Note: I'm not foolish enough to call myself an "Animator." ~ I blend mocap ...a.k.a. "Mocapper!"
WE.... have the same goals. ~ Animate when absolutely necessary, otherwise blend mocap.
The first and My primary interest is to bring in my Mocap animations as FBX re-target the data onto a well rigged character so I can refine and tweak the motions. Or build the motion if needed on a good rig.
This is how I accomplish "EXACTLY" that:
~ Build (1) Humanoid Rig for Production. This baby has "embedded functionality" for "Animation - facial mocap" and more.
Jason Osipa Rig.... from "Stop Staring" ~ With "Poses" - "Morph Targets" - "Phonemems" - "Visemes" Not simple morph animation.... "The BONES FOLLOW THE MORPHS!"
When re-targeting animation and or "Fixing animation." ....I add the functionality that ICLONE does NOT have.
~ BLEND IK-FK This alone will speed up production ...twice as fast, because you have the ability to "Blend" instead of tweaking.... bone by bone.
Now Quickly Switch to "FK MODE"
iClone Blending Problems: ~ Add functionality to the "FEET" to automate the process. Now you can match ANY motion for smooth blending.   Today.... I do a lot of "Drag 'N Drop... Poof! Are you able to learn Lightwave's tools to accomplish this?
Have you created the face rig, yet?
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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paulg625,
I created this rig (5) years ago and use it over and over and over.
...I also have (1) rig for quadrapeds and (1) for robots, too.
Re-Purposing a rig really pays off.
Did you create the face rig, yet?
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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but0fc0ursee (10/26/2017)
paulg625,
I created this rig (5) years ago and use it over and over and over.
...I also have (1) rig for quadrapeds and (1) for robots, too.
Re-Purposing a rig really pays off.
Did you create the face rig, yet?
No haven't created a facial rig yet. But am following your advice.
I have been studying aspects of Lightwave animation and Rigging looking at how to do the things you showed me in lightwave.
The time I have spent "hands-on" in Lightwave have been spent working on FBX import
This seems to be the Achilles of many programs. Due to the fact that everyone goes there own way when using the SDK for FBX.
Example : Daz characters transfer fine into Lightwave (depending on version of Daz)
Iclone currently : does not. One reason is they place the mesh at bottom of the hierarchy which confuses Lightwave.
I have studied many videos and have crossed a few hurdles. I can now get the mesh working with the bones in Lightwave.
But as you said
" When first learning.... the fbx display of bones IS NOT how the rig is constructed.
(When Exported.... FBX creates NEW connections... Displaying all bones linked to the ROOT.) "
Why does it do this? I noted it when bringing in a character into Lightwave. and How will it affect if going back and forth between two applications ?
Here is what I am thinking I need to do for my work flow now : What do you think?
- Create a rig which works well in Lightwave and has all the controls i want.
- Export this rig to Exchange get it working there (skinned of course)
- apply the motions I want to this rig.
- export the FBX motions ( Including facial because bone facial will transfer and allow me to do my fine detailing in Lightwave)
- motion blend the file.
- tweak the motion to what i want.
Then back in Lightwave where I will have much greater control over my rig.
"First and foremost.... DON'T JUMP THE GUN.
Yes, control points are created..
NO.... You can NOT use them in iClone (THE WAY THEY ARE)
Remember..... After all this.... you MUST adhere to what ICLONE NEEDS.
That is a simple FK skeleton skinned to bones. (No Control Points..... just FK bones and skin)."
So this is why I'm looking at Lightwave work flow options before committing to absolutes. I don't want to jump the gun.
" Place bones where YOU want them and zero them out for animation."
This seems to be part of the problem when coming into Lightwave the bone orientation is incorrect. Lightwave can bring in as Bones or Lightwave Joints. But I was told joints create an offset problem. So trying to work out Bone issue which is where the idea of trying to bring a rig out of lightwave into Exchange came from Plus your info.
Sir. I MUST be careful here or... "I will lose you."
why???
You need MORE Lightwave tool experience.
The only way to achieve it is... More Lightwave tutorials.
This and the FBX import is what I'm working on I have found a couple of Lightwave guys who have helped me fill in a few lightwave gaps.
Plus watching all I can on rigging for lightwave.
Please maintain you course of action..... "Learning to Rig from SCRATCH."
I promise you.... you won't be sorry.
This is what I think will work best for what my goal is anyway. Build a rig which works in Lightwave then get it to import into Exchange then should come back correctly.
ButOfcOursee: Do you agree?
So this is where I am: I have a training series from a Rigging guy who uses lightwave. Going to spend the next few days as I have time looking at it...
Then on to Rig Building !!!
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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Yes, build a complete rig in LightWave. Get Her working "Just Right"...
Then...
Rigs.... Importing / Exporting:
~ "MATCH" the export setting for ICLONE'S needs.
~ Make sure your "ROOTS Up Axis" matches iClone.
Hopefully you find the "Correct" settings for 3dxchange import.
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I found this on CG Society. Hopefully it helps you. Question: "Is it possible to arbitrarily reassign the rotation axes of a lw bone without moving it?"
Answer: You can definately produce good rigs here but you have to think about it in a diff. manner than you do in say Maya. As for switching Axis. --- You can change Heading and Pitch around fairly easy, but not bank. Grab your bone you want to change Rotated till the Pitch and Heading are in the right direction and Items>Pivot>RecordPivotRotation. Then fix your skinning by hitting "r" ... I know sux you have to rotate the bone to do that and thus screwing up the rest of your rig maybe. I dont know a safe way of doing it without rotating the bone. I suggest going back to skelegons and change the lollypop thing to face the way you want pitch to be and things will go much smoother. Im going to paste part of a previous post for ya dunno if it will help but i hope so. i wrote it for somebody a whle ago. Its my bible i use when riggin hehe and seems to work well. ITS mega important you do these things in the right order. ------------------------------------- 1. Make Skelegons Make all your skelegons in modeler dont worry about parenting at this point. (make the root 1st) the better the order you make em later it will help so you can just hit up and down arrows to walk up and down your skeleton. 2. Detail>Edit Skelegons Edit skelegons on ALL of your bones, and make the lolly pop point in the direction you want pitch. Remember bank is always the twist of the bone and Pitch and Heading are determined by this lollypop looking thingamagig. Do this to every bone (pitch should go in the direction the joint bends the most i would say. Cause say on the fingers you make pitch the rotation that rotates your fingers then you can use "Joint Compensation" (which only works with pitch) to help with pinching when you start SKINNING 3. Convert to Bones Put everything you want skinned on layer 1... Put ALL your bones for that skin in Layer 1.... Put any object you want parented in its own layer. Say you parent a hat to your head. Put that in layer 2 and go to DETAIL>Layer Settings and name it "HAT" so in layout you will see HAT, not Layer 2 etc. After loading up your ready to go model go ITEMS>ADD>BONES>CONVERT SKELEGONS INTO BONES... and then move to step 4 4. PARENTING NOW its ok to parent anything But you have to make sure you parent everything at this point if you forget something and try to do it later you might run in to big problems as i did, and they are killers. So parent all face bones like eyes if you do so to the head, head to neck. Something i forget sometimes is the Collars to the 3rd back bone, or 4th whatever you prefer. Both thighbones or your twist bone whatever you do fer your legs to the hips... so after all parenting is done and your sure move to 5. 5. RECORD PIVOT ROTATION now for everybone .. EVERY bone hehe ITEMS>PIVOT>RECORD PIVOT ROTATION i coudn't do all at once so you kinda have to do every one, one at a time. And you will know you have em all when you hit UP arrow fast on you bones and you see in the Numaric display that there are ALL 0, 0, 0 for all rotations on all bones You do this step because it Zero's out your rotation.. now if you want your back at its original spot just pick the bone and hit "n" and type 0 0 0 and woot back to original rest spot. OMG don't forget to have AUTOKEY ON. won't work without. Trust me 6. Now you can either start your skinning or continue with the rig. I think i just made my IKs here and all my little null objects and special things, like i have a null object ring around the waist and i hit that and it redirects my selection to the root, so i dont have to go looking for it and my mouse stays at my character. As for skinning read Timothy Albee's book hes perty much right on i think.
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