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By rickdarby - 7 Years Ago
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I have some nice models and maps exported from Daz Studio - some HD genesis 3 Characters. When i import them into iClone (i tried in ic 6 and in 7) they all look bad, i mean, not as good.
The characters have iray materials which have a bunch of different maps and apart from the diffuse and specular map, i can't seem to be able to use the others properly. Here's what i'm up against :
1) i have a bump map and a normal map - they are both used at the same time - in Daz, it looks perfect, in iclone, i'm only able to use just one of those maps for the bump channel(i tried using the bump map here - and i tried using the nomal map for displacement but that won't accept the "blue" style normal maps used in most 3d apps (i mean it will accept it but will morph the character beyond recognition). if i use the normal map for the bump channel the results will be extremely weak, no pores or lines are seen.
2) i have SSS maps - don't really know how to use them, on which material to use them
3) the AO material - i could not find absolutely no info or help about it
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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To the normal map issue after applying it use the settings to determine the amount 100% to 0% cut it down until happy with it. As to the others look at the PBR guide from Substance materials they explain the PBR flow and this will help with understanding the different maps. and There is a good tutorial on realllusion Utube about genesis import setting maps (not sure if updated for PBR but good info.
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By rickdarby - 7 Years Ago
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thanks for the reply.
the tuts (watched all of them) are not updated to reflect the pbr materials and there's no info anywhere (anywhere at all) about SSS and AO.
about the normal map, if i apply it to the bump channel, it's too weak, i am already at 100% strength with it and there's no way to increase more.
i had the same problem in unreal engine - had the 2 maps (bump and normal) but there i could overlap them - in iclone, it's just one map per channel.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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iClone does not do Sub-Surface Scattering (SSS), so that map would be extraneous and discarded.
There are ways to fake or simulate SSS, such as adding a subtle glow map in certain places, but that applies better to stills where the lighting is constant, whereas in a video the character (or prop) may move relative to the lighting and it no longer looks correct.
Example: When a person is brightly lit from behind, you can see some light through their ears. So adding some pink-ish glow to parts of their ears can simulate SSS. But then if the person turns his head, or even worse, walks into a dark room, it doesn't look right. You don't want his ears glowing in the dark.
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By rickdarby - 7 Years Ago
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ok that makes sense - i'll have to ditch sss with iclone - not a huge problem.
but what about AO - what maps can i use there?
and what about my bump and normal maps? where can i use them both?
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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rickdarby (10/17/2017)
ok that makes sense - i'll have to ditch sss with iclone - not a huge problem.
but what about AO - what maps can i use there?
and what about my bump and normal maps? where can i use them both?
Hello,
It's important to understand how this works.. then you won't be confused to what goes where.
PBR... remeber this. "All maps are Black to White."
The various maps.... metallic, roughness, etc., etc.. are determined by, "SHADES OF GREY" applied to your map.
Example:
Diffuse Channel:
Diffuse map.... is you "Color Map"
Bump Channel:
To add the illusion of Depth.... 'Use a Normal map" DON'T USE A "BumpMap"
...to add to what paulg625 stated.... Start with a setting of (30).... and increase it to achieve the desired effect.
___________________________________________________________________________________
Render Options:
AO.... iClone uses HBA0+ (Superior Results) 
make sure you turn on "Temperal Anti Aliasing" before adjusting AO.
where is this?
Real-Time Render Options Check Box - TAA (Shf +T)
Important:
Do NOT forget to use the "Bias" setting.... this baby fine-tunes the effect.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Metallic = ability to reflect imagery around it. (Adjusted using "Shades of Gray" Black = 0.... White = 100% ________________________________________________________________________________
Roughness = (Ability to reflect or absorb White light) The more white your map is = Rougher The more black your map is = Smoother
Hope this helps.
ROLL 'EM
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By wires - 7 Years Ago
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Take a look at this video by Stuckon3d on importing various flavours of PBR materials into iClone:
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Very well explained BOC thanks!!!
but0fc0ursee (10/18/2017)
rickdarby (10/17/2017)
ok that makes sense - i'll have to ditch sss with iclone - not a huge problem.
but what about AO - what maps can i use there?
and what about my bump and normal maps? where can i use them both?
Hello, It's important to understand how this works.. then you won't be confused to what goes where. PBR... remeber this. "All maps are Black to White." The various maps.... metallic, roughness, etc., etc.. are determined by, "SHADES OF GREY" applied to your map. Example: Diffuse Channel: Diffuse map.... is you "Color Map" Bump Channel: To add the illusion of Depth.... ' Use a Normal map" DON'T USE A "BumpMap" ...to add to what paulg625 stated.... Start with a setting of (30).... and increase it to achieve the desired effect. ___________________________________________________________________________________ Render Options: AO.... iClone uses HBA0+ (Superior Results) make sure you turn on "Temperal Anti Aliasing" before adjusting AO.where is this? Real-Time Render Options Check Box - TAA (Shf +T)
Important:
Do NOT forget to use the "Bias" setting.... this baby fine-tunes the effect.
_______________________________________________________________________________ Metallic = ability to reflect imagery around it. (Adjusted using "Shades of Gray" Black = 0.... White = 100% ________________________________________________________________________________
Roughness = (Ability to reflect or absorb White light) The more white your map is = Rougher The more black your map is = Smoother Hope this helps. ROLL 'EM
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By rickdarby - 7 Years Ago
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thanks @but0fc0ursee and @wires for your replies but i still have a problem - in daz studio i have a bump map and a normal map, they're used both at the same time. the normal map (blue one) and the bump map (grayscale). in unreal engine (which has identical pbr materials as iclone) i was able to combine the 2 maps and get the same effect as in daz studio.
but in iclone i can only use one map at a time - if i used the grayscale map i get some niche shadows and depth onto my character - but no fine details (scars, pores, etc), if i use the blue channel map i get the fine details but no shadows and very little depth on those details.
and for the actual normal map (the blue one) - it's already at 100% strength and the details are extremely weak - is there a way to go over 100%?
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Are you applying the normal map as a Normal and adjusting it or as a bump? Because I usually, as ButOfCourse Said, when applying a Normal have to adjust it down to 30 to 40%. at 100% it's usually to strong. And I wonder if you put the Bump map in as a displacement map to get the scaring?
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Right -- pay attention, as you cannot adjust the bump/normal maps up too high (as a very general rule Daz maps coming in need to be no higher than around 12 -- any higher actually goes *lower* on the details). Adjust VERY carefully and you should be okay.
Also lighting can be deceiving -- make sure you aren't using the default iClone lights (which are pretty horrible) but setting up your own lights, particularly if you are trying to evaluate shadows. Adjusting the lights in iClone also takes a delicate hand, and there are LOTS of different controls there. Make sure you watch all the tutorials on the various aspects of PBR and GI (for one thing, the default IBL lighting in iClone is also terrible -- crank that down to around 7 or 8 and add and adjust your lights accordingly). Without good lighting it will be almost impossible to see your materials properly.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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An expansion on an earlier statement of, "PBR... remeber (sic) this. 'All maps are Black to White.'"
To be clear, it is many, but not all.
COLOR:
The Base Color, of course, is normally a color image, not grayscale.
The Glow map is typically going to glow in a color, not grayscale.
The Blend map is typically going to be in color, just like your Base Color map
GRAYSCALE, OR NOT:
The Bump map is grayscale if a simple "bump" texture, or that strange bluish color if you're using "Normals"
Displacement - Can be grayscale for simple displacement, or a "strange color" if you're using a "Vector Displacement" map for tessellation
GRAYSCALE:
Opacity will be grayscale - White is fully opaque, black is transparent (zero opacity)
AO (Ambient Occlusion) will be grayscale, darker in the recessed (occluded) areas
Roughness is grayscale, as described before - White is all rough, black is smooth (no roughness) - not to be confused with bumps (this is a "microscopic" surface roughness)
Metallic - Grayscale, but typically just black and white (white where bare metal, black where painted - the visible surface of the object is metallic or not, rarely anything in between, per PBR best practices)
There are some good pictures here, but sadly it's for the traditional shader, rather than the PBR shader:
https://manual.reallusion.com/iClone_7/ENU/Pro/Default.htm#iClone_7/Pro_7.0/15_Multiple_Channel_Texture_Mapping/Types_of_maps.htm?Highlight=blend map
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By rickdarby - 7 Years Ago
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i am applying the normal map (blue one) as normal in the bump channel...
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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rickdarby (10/17/2017)
...about the normal map, if i apply it to the bump channel, it's too weak, i am already at 100% strength with it and there's no way to increase more.
Please....
Consider what others have told you.
"WHAT".... can cause a "NormalMap".... to display (WEAK) at a setting of 100%.... 
~ Maps that are "Poorly Constructed"
...and / or
~ Incorrect Light (settings)
The effect is an optical illusion and if the following maps are poorly constructed (and / or used with improper light settings).... you obtain poor results.
~ Diffuse
~ Normal
~ Specular
paulg625.... clearly explains "Normal" maps
KellyToons..... "NAILED IT" ...explaining iClone "Lights."
Pay attention to when KellyToons and Paulg625 both stated..... "Turn It DOWN to..."
the tuts (watched all of them) are not updated to reflect the pbr materials and there's no info anywhere (anywhere at all) about.. AO.
Consider searching (YU-Bah-Tuba) again. 
.... and GO SLOW.
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By rickdarby - 7 Years Ago
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i did some more testing and here's what i found out (in case it will help anyone) :
1) the normal maps from daz were to weak (so to say) for iclone - i had increase the strength / depth of the normal map in photoshop in order to get it to add some details (i doubled the strength of it in photoshop and in iclone it's still at 100% in order to show the fine details).
2) not all PBR's are created equally - i tried importing my daz characters in various other PBR based engines (unreal engine, marmoset toolbag) and the characters look amazing in there. in iclone, there's a lot of stuff missing - it's like watching a SD res movie vs a 4k res movie.
I was hoping iclone (got a 30 day trial) would be the all in one solution (animating + rendering) but it seems not (at least for my needs).
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By wires - 7 Years Ago
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Pity, but I hope that you find something suitable, and as feature packed as iClone, to suit your needs.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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rickdarby (10/19/2017)
i did some more testing and here's what i found out (in case it will help anyone) :
1) the normal maps from daz were to weak (so to say) for iclone - i had increase the strength / depth of the normal map in photoshop in order to get it to add some details (i doubled the strength of it in photoshop and in iclone it's still at 100% in order to show the fine details).
But keep in mind this is due to what ButOfCourse said: "poorly constructed Normals map" from my experience and as you can tell from the others here it's not "the Normal" for the Normal map to be to low...
2) not all PBR's are created equally - i tried importing my daz characters in various other PBR based engines (unreal engine, marmoset toolbag) and the characters look amazing in there. in iclone, there's a lot of stuff missing - it's like watching a SD res movie vs a 4k res movie.
I was hoping iclone (got a 30 day trial) would be the all in one solution (animating + rendering) but it seems not (at least for my needs).
Iclone like any software requires a bit of time to learn and remember with PBR it's about speed as much as quality. Take a look at Kevin S.'s work he posts a lot of 4K resolution stuff really shows where Iclone shines. Plus look at Reallusion videos of all the new features...
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By rickdarby - 7 Years Ago
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you guys are totally right, iclone is feature packed - in terms of animation it's really good - although the one big drawback for me would be the lack of character collisions
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By but0fc0ursee - 7 Years Ago
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rickdarby (10/19/2017)
you guys are totally right, iclone is feature packed - in terms of animation it's really good - although the one big drawback for me would be the lack of character collisions
iClone 7 has a multitude of collision functionality.... Many are set up for you....
But...
To enjoy the full power of IC7's Collisions...
You got to get under-the-hood and "Set Them" according to your needs.
You could ask Reallusion to automatically enable (Your Needs)
ES-PLAIN.... SPLAIN.. 
Explain yourself.
....Feedback Tracker. 
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By rickdarby - 7 Years Ago
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so i found the problem to my details looking weak - it seems the normal map was fine, but it also seems i need to use a proper roughness map - i have the specular map i use with the traditional material (btw, with traditional materials and specular / reflection maps add all the details), unfortunately, for PBR materials it seems i cannot change the strength of the metallic / roughness map - is this a bug in iclone or there's a reason it should be like this? i could eventually get it to look right by tweaking the map in photoshop, but it would need too many tweaks and it would not be the ideal thing to do...
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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If the material is a Substance you can change the various settings in the parameters section, including Roughness. If the material has been flattened to textures you can click the slider button underneath the mapping icon to make changes. The only time you can't edit is when the textures are referred to (there will be a changelink icon on the image for the map) rather than loaded. I don't have iClone in front of me so I'm doing this from memory...  To make look things amazing, you also have to pay attention to lighting. |
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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rickdarby (10/17/2017)
i have a bump map and a normal map - they are both used at the same time
I would try using the bump map in the Displacement channel and the Normal map in the Bump channel. I didn't see this suggested.
BTW, remember also that Iray is a completely different render engine from the one iClone uses, so PBR materials from DAZ will most likely be optimized for Iray.
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By stuckon3d - 7 Years Ago
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rickdarby (10/19/2017)
so i found the problem to my details looking weak - it seems the normal map was fine, but it also seems i need to use a proper roughness map - i have the specular map i use with the traditional material (btw, with traditional materials and specular / reflection maps add all the details), unfortunately, for PBR materials it seems i cannot change the strength of the metallic / roughness map - is this a bug in iclone or there's a reason it should be like this? i could eventually get it to look right by tweaking the map in photoshop, but it would need too many tweaks and it would not be the ideal thing to do...
to adjust the metallic and roughness maps, double right click on the respective icons to bring up the "adjust color" panel. there you can increase or decrease the strength/brightness of the maps. Iclone's PBR system is very powerful. Also for the normal map you can increase the contrast on the normal maps even further using "adjust color" if you need to increase beyond 100% of the strength slider max value.
A far as the specular map, that goes into the roughness channel and then you need to inverted. That is something iclone does automatically then you switch from traditional to PBR shader. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Stuckon3d.
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By rickdarby - 7 Years Ago
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to adjust the metallic and roughness maps, double right click on the respective icons to bring up the "adjust color" panel. there you can increase or decrease the strength/brightness of the maps. Iclone's PBR system is very powerful. Also for the normal map you can increase the contrast on the normal maps even further using "adjust color" if you need to increase beyond 100% of the strength slider max value.
A far as the specular map, that goes into the roughness channel and then you need to inverted. That is something iclone does automatically then you switch from traditional to PBR shader. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Stuckon3d.
I just found that i need to embed the roughness map (i'm using the old specular map for it) and then i can actually edit the colors (and invert it to properly use it as a roughness map)
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