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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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Hello,
Correct me if I'm wrong - but if someone wanted to hire a freelancer with iClone to make a mini movie, they would be allowed to do that wouldn't they? I want to do the right thing - but I'm not sure on the rules. I've made a little animated person that I wanted to use to introduce a new ball-jointed doll I have made; to showcase her on youtube. I would like to credit reallusion for using their software, and pay a certain amount of money for the pleasure of being able to use their product - however it just wouldn't be viable for me to buy the entire software package for this one project. Am I allowed to hire someone to convert my files? Is there another way to pay a smaller amount of money to reallusion for a one-off job? Like I said, I'm happy to credit reallusion and have a watermark, for example, in the corner - but the trial version plasters it all over the middle, and i just unusable for me in its current state. Any help would be greatly appreciated 
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By luke (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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is it your facebook ?
https://www.facebook.com/legranddoll
impressive !!!
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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No, not mine - but I looovvvee her work - isnt she great! She was actually one of my inspirations.
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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there are no rules to share of rendered movie data.
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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vidi (10/12/2017)
there are no rules to share of rendered movie data.
Thankyou, but I uploaded a topic to this forum last night asking to hire someone with the full version of iClone to convert my .iProjects into .MP4s or .AVIs, and although the post was initially approved, it was taken down before I got a reply. I can only imagine that I was breaking a rule, otherwise why take it down?
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By TheOldBuffer - 7 Years Ago
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I'd imagine it's the fact you used a trial version to create your project and don't intend to purchase thats made RL a bit narked. Regarding the rendering of your project, it's not an impossible ask but a lot is dependent on what props and avatars you are using. If you have purchased anything from reallusion the person rendering your project has to have the same items or they will have to be bought again. Other than that there shouldn't be any problems.
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By Tarampa Studios - 7 Years Ago
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Hi Naomi, that is strange that your post disappeared because there was another post yesterday about hiring which is ok:
https://forum.reallusion.com/343590/Would-like-to-HIRE-character-animating-help#bm344452
Vidi is far more experienced than me but if she is too busy then maybe I can help you? My youtube channel is Tarampa Studios.
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Yes I imagine it was part because you were using a trial version. Plus you wanted a project converted. Which means transfer of items which the receiving party might not own. Although Iclone itself should have taken care of this when the receiving party got the project anything they didn't own should have been water marked anyway. As stated above this is part of the issue with people working on project together everyone has to have same items. But this wouldn't have made them take it down. I think it would be an ethical issue as stated above about the trial version using it then wanting to have someone convert it...
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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@Naomi,
You may recognize me as one of the people who commented in your earlier thread.
I am a bit surprised (but not shocked) that the thread was removed.
Yes, is it okay for people do use iClone "for hire." But that is different from what you were asking yesterday.
If the work is done entirely on licensed (paid-for) iClone installations, that is different from doing most of the work on a trial (free) version.
I was trying to think of an analogy. This isn't great, but it'll suffice:
- You need to drill a hole in your wall at home, but you don't own a drill.
- It seems rather expensive to buy a drill for only one hole.
- So you buy a drill, take it home, drill the hole, and the next day to return the drill to the store to get your money back.
- In that case, you're abusing the store's refund policy.
- However, if your neighbor bought the same drill from the same store, you could hire him to drill the hole for you.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Yeah, I think it goes deeper than that, as I said on that original thread. You used the software to create a project and now you want to pay for "renting" a render license, But RL doesn't sell such a license, and asking others to circumnavigate that is wrongheaded and most likely illegal. Plus, as I said, anyone here would be a fool to do five projects for you and not charge what iClone itself sells for (because you might think it's "easy money" but it's not -- every single thing I've ever done in animation always has consequences and difficulties you can't imagine. I would charge you at least a couple of hundred to do it).
But the bigger question is this: if you created all these projects (and five is a lot) and you recognize the value of having them rendered, why NOT pay the few hundred dollars for a legit copy of iClone? You will at the very least use it again -- no one can say "well, this FIVE is all I need". And you will at least pay $100 or more to someone else to do it for you -- why cheap out and get someone in trouble (and trouble they will get into) when you can just solve it all yourself?
I assume you will be making money off of these (which is why you are willing to pay in the first place to render them) -- don't cheap out and you will be FAR better off.
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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TheOldBuffer (10/12/2017)
I'd imagine it's the fact you used a trial version to create your project and don't intend to purchase thats made RL a bit narked. Regarding the rendering of your project, it's not an impossible ask but a lot is dependent on what props and avatars you are using. If you have purchased anything from reallusion the person rendering your project has to have the same items or they will have to be bought again. Other than that there shouldn't be any problems.
Thankyou, this was very helpful to me. I'm glad I had you around to explain it to me.
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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justaviking (10/12/2017)
@Naomi,
You may recognize me as one of the people who commented in your earlier thread.
I am a bit surprised (but not shocked) that the thread was removed.
Yes, is it okay for people do use iClone "for hire." But that is different from what you were asking yesterday.
If the work is done entirely on licensed (paid-for) iClone installations, that is different from doing most of the work on a trial (free) version.
I was trying to think of an analogy. This isn't great, but it'll suffice:
- You need to drill a hole in your wall at home, but you don't own a drill.
- It seems rather expensive to buy a drill for only one hole.
- So you buy a drill, take it home, drill the hole, and the next day to return the drill to the store to get your money back.
- In that case, you're abusing the store's refund policy.
- However, if your neighbor bought the same drill from the same store, you could hire him to drill the hole for you.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
Hello JustAViking. Thankyou for replying.
Unfortunetly I actually didnt get to read your post yesterday. I uploaded the question, stayed up another 20minutes and fell asleep (whoops), it was 2am here, perhaps I should have already been asleep. I would have loved to have read the replies. By the time I woke up and checked back on the thread it was already gone. Did you (or anyone else) say anything different, not on this thread that I should have read?
BTW I loved your analogy about the drill. I totally agree that returning the drill would be wrong. I wanted to ask my neighbour to give him $20 to borrow his $400 drill for ten minutes to drill my wall, rather than buy the drill myself, or pay him to do it.
I truely didnt know I was doing anything wrong, and it wasnt my intention to. Thankyou for your kind words and finding a good way of explaining it to me
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (10/12/2017)
Yeah, I think it goes deeper than that, as I said on that original thread. You used the software to create a project and now you want to pay for "renting" a render license, But RL doesn't sell such a license, and asking others to circumnavigate that is wrongheaded and most likely illegal. Plus, as I said, anyone here would be a fool to do five projects for you and not charge what iClone itself sells for (because you might think it's "easy money" but it's not -- every single thing I've ever done in animation always has consequences and difficulties you can't imagine. I would charge you at least a couple of hundred to do it).
But the bigger question is this: if you created all these projects (and five is a lot) and you recognize the value of having them rendered, why NOT pay the few hundred dollars for a legit copy of iClone? You will at the very least use it again -- no one can say "well, this FIVE is all I need". And you will at least pay $100 or more to someone else to do it for you -- why cheap out and get someone in trouble (and trouble they will get into) when you can just solve it all yourself?I assume you will be making money off of these (which is why you are willing to pay in the first place to render them) -- don't cheap out and you will be FAR better off.
Hello Kelleytoons. I'm so sorry I didnt get to read your original thread - did you say anything else originally not said here? It was taken down before I got to read it. I truly didn't mean to do anything wrong - and I'm sorry if I got under your skin by asking not once, but twice. (ugh). I'm very new to these programs and i'm working on a lot of assumptions, that could be wrong. I know of some phone apps that allow you to do things such as modify a photo which you can then upload to social media, and you have the choice of either having a logo, or paying to have an individual photos without, usually at an inflated price. I'm not sure if these still exist, but it seemed like a good concept. I hope one day Reallusion allows for one off purchases as such. Oh gosh, no, I dont want to get anyone in trouble - I didn't think it could - my bad.
No, not making any money, I just thought it would look cool. I wanted to present a doll I made to youtube, so the project I made is literally a character talking to the camera, reading the introduction clip with a blank background - nothing fancy whatsoever. One of the videos is 12 seconds long - all 5 together are under 2 minutes. I'm sure there's a way to put them all into the one clip - but then I'd just have to cut the clip back up to add the photos of my doll. I didn't realise it would cost so much money - its just a silly little project just for me to introduce my doll - wow, do i feel silly, I was sooo far off.
Did you read JustAVikings analogy of the drill? When I said I wanted to pay, I meant $20 to borrow the drill, and not just ask my neighbour and offer nothing in return. I realise now, from everything you said how far off this was. Thankyou for your time and effort in writing to me Best wishes Kelleytoons - you have educated well today.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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naomi.kendall (10/12/2017)
I truely didnt know I was doing anything wrong, and it wasnt my intention to. Thankyou for your kind words...
I will take you at your word.
The short version of what I wrote yesterday is that the purpose of a trial license is to evaluate the software, not to make a finished product. Since you want a final render, you are apparently satisfied with the results (otherwise you wouldn't want it rendered). Thus you should pay for the software.
As before, best wishes and good luck.
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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Hello Ani, is that what you prefer to be called? - Wow, I'm blown away - I love your work on youtube - not to mention your other work aswell - I've been bouncing around the web checking out all your different mediums of artistry I feel like I've just uncovered a hidden gem, and I'm so excited to get started reading one of your books for the first time. Also, congrats on winning the Norma K Hemming Award. Your official video for diamond eyes gave me shivers up my spine. Keep up the great work!
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By Kevin.S - 7 Years Ago
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Here is Reallusions policies about the use of software pictures and animations 
Policies
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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There's a lot there, but I think this part is the relevent one:
You may not sell, sub-license, loan, give, or transfer any part of the CrazyTalk,CrazyTalk Animator, iClone, and/or 3DXchange or a copy thereof to another personor company.
In essence, by asking others to render your projects, you are asking them to "loan" you the program (it could also be construed as a sub-license). Now, if you wanted to pay someone to create an animation FOR you (the animation itself), complete with render, that would be fine. I know the distinction seems small, but it isn't (and a paid animation IS an expensive proposition -- even 60 seconds of animation in my world goes for $100 on up, and usually FAR up: the last paid gig I did was around $500 for a 60 second spot).
Perhaps you'll never use iClone again, but you still might consider picking up a copy. you can pick up iClone 6 Standard for around $50, and Pro for $115, which is dirt cheap and I can't imagine anyone here doing these animations for less for you anyway. It's a valuable tool and you never know when you might need it again (and you can always upgrade to 7 down the road).
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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Kevin.S (10/12/2017)
Here is Reallusions policies about the use of software pictures and animations
Policies
Thankyou so much - this is exactly what I needed. Cheers
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (10/12/2017)
There's a lot there, but I think this part is the relevent one:
You may not sell, sub-license, loan, give, or transfer any part of the CrazyTalk,CrazyTalk Animator, iClone, and/or 3DXchange or a copy thereof to another personor company.
In essence, by asking others to render your projects, you are asking them to "loan" you the program (it could also be construed as a sub-license). Now, if you wanted to pay someone to create an animation FOR you (the animation itself), complete with render, that would be fine. I know the distinction seems small, but it isn't (and a paid animation IS an expensive proposition -- even 60 seconds of animation in my world goes for $100 on up, and usually FAR up: the last paid gig I did was around $500 for a 60 second spot).
Perhaps you'll never use iClone again, but you still might consider picking up a copy. you can pick up iClone 6 Standard for around $50, and Pro for $115, which is dirt cheap and I can't imagine anyone here doing these animations for less for you anyway. It's a valuable tool and you never know when you might need it again (and you can always upgrade to 7 down the road).
Oh wow - really? I only ever saw the price of the iClone7, so i thought everyone was telling me to spend $400 and up - Thankyou so much for clearing this up for me. Oh, you've just put a massive smile on my face That's a Huge difference! I'm only on a disability pension, so although $400 might not seem much to some people, thats so so so much money to me.
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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Hey Kelleytoons - where did you say you could find iClone6 for sale? I'm only finding iclone7 on the main website.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Standard:
http://www.studica.com/us/en/Reallusion/reallusion-iclone-6-standard/ic6-esd.html?ex_ref=google_feed&gclid=CjwKCAjwpfzOBRA5EiwAU0ccNzhEog-4aqmk1-04OtceqRkPI-IYyPm9GACnWW-Znx7Jwpr3qbY9VxoCcJgQAvD_BwE
Pro:
http://www.studica.com/us/en/Reallusion/reallusion-iclone-6-pro/ic6pro-esd.html?ex_ref=google_feed&gclid=CjwKCAjwpfzOBRA5EiwAU0ccN1uaS-zrgk6zZLA59jMzVQfvjP8aDbTtUP-zWCIy-y61AwqyibK4qxoCHrEQAvD_BwE
And when I get to that site I also get a $10 gift certificate for first time purchasers, which would bring it down even more.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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And you can also get it through Amazon (a bit higher but then the download is direct from Real Illusion):
https://www.amazon.com/Reallusion-iClone-6-Standard-Download/dp/B013S94QFO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1507824988&sr=8-2&keywords=iclone+6
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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Wait ? What? Are you saying that is unethical? My whole paradigm will have to shift now,,, LOL
justaviking (10/12/2017)
@Naomi,
You may recognize me as one of the people who commented in your earlier thread.
I am a bit surprised (but not shocked) that the thread was removed.
Yes, is it okay for people do use iClone "for hire." But that is different from what you were asking yesterday.
If the work is done entirely on licensed (paid-for) iClone installations, that is different from doing most of the work on a trial (free) version.
I was trying to think of an analogy. This isn't great, but it'll suffice:
- You need to drill a hole in your wall at home, but you don't own a drill.
- It seems rather expensive to buy a drill for only one hole.
- So you buy a drill, take it home, drill the hole, and the next day to return the drill to the store to get your money back.
- In that case, you're abusing the store's refund policy.
- However, if your neighbor bought the same drill from the same store, you could hire him to drill the hole for you.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
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By naomi.kendall - 7 Years Ago
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Thankyou for that - unfortunetly though that US$50.95 is only for students, faculty members and non-profit organisations. The other two are too far out of my price range right now, but I'll see if I can save up some, or find something to sell...
I'm going to grab some shuteye (its 3am here) and then come back to it with fresh eyes tomorrow. Thankyou again for all your help.
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By vidi - 7 Years Ago
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Thankyou, but I uploaded a topic to this forum last night asking to hire someone with the full version of iClone to convert my .iProjects into .MP4s or .AVIs, and although the post was initially approved, it was taken down before I got a reply. I can only imagine that I was breaking a rule, otherwise why take it down?
I had the impression from first posting and title
it was a question for hire a freelancer with iClone to make a mini movie.
To hire a freelancer that make the movie for you, or you want only a Guy that convert a projectfile, are different things for my taste.
That sound other
asking to hire someone with the full version of iClone to convert my .iProjects into .MP4s or .AVIs,
than this
to hire a freelancer with iClone to make a mini movie
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By michael7 - 7 Years Ago
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Naomi do you remember if you saw my post to you on your original thread?
The reason your thread was probably taken down, my guess, is that you hit a legally sticky situation for Realluslion. If it was black and white, cut and dry, they would have provided you an answer. It looks like it isn't. For instant Kellytoons wrote:
( "You may not sell, sub-license, loan, give, or transfer any part of the CrazyTalk,CrazyTalk Animator, iClone, and/or 3DXchange or a copy thereof to another personor company.
In essence, by asking others to render your projects, you are asking them to "loan" you the program (it could also be construed as a sub-license)" )
This isn't being done in this case. Let's say I were to do what she was asking ( I'm not ) I am neither loaning her, selling, transfering etc, ANY part or ASSET of those stated PROGRAMS. It could be argued that she would be doing that, if she was attempting to transfer a model provided by Reallusion. But she never specified.
As a licensee I have a legal right to do whatever I want with any animation I render on Reallusion products, provided I haven't stolen those products from Reallusion. It would be cut and dry if there was a contract rule that stated as a user of the trial version you may only test and play and not use what work you do on the trial versions of those programs. I don't think that rule exists. I'd like to see if it does. I don't think that rule can be made and legally put to use without a contract being signed. Which usually requires a transfer of money. Of course if that rule exists then there's your answer right there.
Sorry - but this is how this all looks.
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By Tarampa Studios - 7 Years Ago
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naomi.kendall (10/12/2017)
Hello Ani, is that what you prefer to be called? - Wow, I'm blown away - I love your work on youtube - not to mention your other work aswell - I've been bouncing around the web checking out all your different mediums of artistry I feel like I've just uncovered a hidden gem, and I'm so excited to get started reading one of your books for the first time. Also, congrats on winning the Norma K Hemming Award. Your official video for diamond eyes gave me shivers up my spine. Keep up the great work!
Thanks Naomi.
I only glanced at this thread initially, so I just assumed you were using a trial version or basic standard version of iClone with your own original doll content.
It's perfectly okay to share projects between friends or associates who both have legitimate copies of the software, so long as it's not sharing materials in the specific project that are "copyright compromised". So everything in the file needs to be either original, licenced appropriately by both parties, or free for commercial purposes. (Important in your case, because presumably you are wanting to show your doll for the purposes of gaining a market for it...?)
It's completely understandable that as a newbie with trial or standard software that you may not have understood that Reallusion need to be very wary and careful to ensure that nobody is promoting the use of cracked software- which it kinda, may have sounded like in your original post.... But at the other end of the scale, my failing is that I presume everybody to be innocent so it honestly never occured to me that you might be using "pirated content"- which can be as innocent as using a Pinterest Pic as a background without checking that it's available for commercial as well as private purposes.
There are still unlimited legitimate versions of iC5 and iC6 for sale via Amazon - in Particular, iC5 is still the preferred version for teaching animation in primary schools, so it's still perfectly possible to get a good cheap version of the software for $99US (or as low as $49 if you have an Amazon coupon code). . and then contact Reallusion directly for an upgrade price to the pipeline pro versions, if needs be. Reallusion are terrific to deal with like that.
https://www.amazon.com/iClone5-Pro-Win-Old-Version/dp/B00AEDXMGC
So any potential copyright compromises can be avoided in many ways.
Easiest way is to just find a reputable iClone animator, as you're attempting to do, and then just send them an image with dimensions of your doll, and let them start the project from scratch... or send them a few screenshots of whatever you've done using your trial software - and letting them start from scratch using properly licenced content of other assets (like background images or props from 3DWarehouse etc) or from their own libraries, or any other content that is free in the public domain for commercial purposes. They certainly can't share the content back to you if it is copyright to a third party, but they are perfectly permitted to render a video of it and grant permission for you to share it as far and wide as you wish for commercial purposes....
and yes, it's perfectly okay to post a pic in this forum and say "hey guys, I'm using this copyright thing as inspiration, does anybody know where I can get permission to use it, or download something similar that's free or cheap for commercial purposes?" Creators use copyrighted works as reference images for new and original work all the time. Reallusion even hosted a character creator contest a while back which publicly listed that as a step of the process to be judged.
And of course collaboration is perfectly okay, under similar circumstances. There's a group of founding members here who collaborate on "Pinhead" projects all the time. I think they have one at the moment for the theme of Halloween... (usually hilarious to watch what they come up with every year in their forum thread), but it's also highly informative to watch how they deal with the copyright sensitivities by collaborating using the "Pinhead" character which was created by one of more of them and donated to the community - so that's another way to avoid trouble, if you "donate" the use of your doll to the animator you choose.
I've actually been to court to defend my own copyright - and won - so I know the international copyright laws inside out, if you need to clarify anything else.
Always more than one way to tenderly groom a cat, as they should say, LOL
Best of luck either way. Doll making is a fabulous skill and a truly wonderful way to brighten a child's life.
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By Tarampa Studios - 7 Years Ago
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justaviking (10/12/2017)
@Naomi,
I was trying to think of an analogy. This isn't great, but it'll suffice:
- You need to drill a hole in your wall at home, but you don't own a drill.
- It seems rather expensive to buy a drill for only one hole.
- So you buy a drill, take it home, drill the hole, and the next day to return the drill to the store to get your money back.
- In that case, you're abusing the store's refund policy.
- However, if your neighbor bought the same drill from the same store, you could hire him to drill the hole for you.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
Actually that's a brilliant analogy.
It's also sad to give up on iClone when it could help your doll achieve stardom with its own webseries. I'd encourage you to consider an old pipeline pro version thru Amazon, but if you've done it in a trial version of iC7, then your project won't be backwards compatible in 5 or 6. You'd need to start from scratch, same as hiring somebody to start over too.
But it's also understandable to give up on animation, if your first love is doll making. We all know how hard it can be to find spare Time for anything.
Good luck either way.
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By michael7 - 7 Years Ago
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Kellytoons, Mike, I just saw some of your animations on your you tube channel. Nice work man!
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Thanks for the kind words, but I hope to have a TON better stuff soon (now that I have all the great tools I need).
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