[NEWS!] SIGGRAPH 2017 - FACEWARE UPDATE


https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic335452.aspx
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By illusionLAB - 4 Years Ago
I imagine you'll need to capture a "face calibrate" at the start of each video clip... like the T pose for body mocap.  Exciting times!  I see FaceRig has teamed up with Noitom - another (and cheaper) face capture solution could be just around the corner! (pure speculation on my part ;-)
By LP_movies/tvs - 4 Years Ago
if it is in the $1000 can you guy set up a year or a two year plan  or a plan where you can pay off if you can pay for it all at once  it would help a lot of people 
By justaviking - 4 Years Ago
Kelleytoons (8/6/2017)
........ In that case it will be a real slap in the face.

Oh the irony.
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
This is another thing to consider - if the engine itself is not optimized to its best, the real-time tracking of this thing is likely to falter.  Ie - you import an avatar with detailed hair or a lot of materials in a scene with a lot of stuff going on, you might be forced to run dialogues in a separate session and the export them out, and the import them into a scene, so that it all can be 'handled' by the engine.  Unless separately run facial 'instances' can themselves be saved as animations/imotion files, which can be easily reimported to another, or multiple, characters?   I have seen the current iClone 7 slow down with heavier scenes, so it will be interesting to see how taxing it will be on the CPU to compute.  In any event, it looks like the potential is great, but one, for the price, must consider what the road to amazingness will entail. I would like to see the ability to record in one separate project and then have that iMotion file ready to be imported into another one.  Will this be possible..!
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
but0fc0ursee (8/7/2017)
@Kellytoons,

Did you see that?
~ Scan a photo
~ 3D Hair with detailed poly strips. (Solves different hair style request) Wow
~ 3D avatar with distinct features (the mesh conforms to the image)... Cheeks, Forehead, Chin, Nose, Eyes.... all change SHAPE.w00t
~ Facial mocap
Real Time Live

Did I see what?  Watch a 90 minute video?  Sorry, but I have a life.
By justaviking - 4 Years Ago
SIGGRAPH....  Fluid simulations, cloth simulations, and did anyone else see the "wet hair" simulation?  And instant avatars, too.  Always many great technological research demonstrations that are far from being actual products.  You never know what becomes a product of its own, or maybe the technology becomes embedded in a product, or maybe never goes outside the lab.

Will that instant avatar become a product?  Difficult to say.  Very cool, though.  Very cool.


INSERTED...  Didn't mean to sound preachy or like I'm giving a lecture.  Just having conversation.   Okay, now back to the rest of my post......


The wet hair (a bit off-topic from Faceware, but part of SIGGRAPH):

By freerange - 4 Years Ago
Actually that is Hao Li who made FaceShift which was Faceware's only real competitor at their price point. Faceshift was bought by Apple. 

The research project you are seeing here is already existing, as part of his USC research. They are just productizing it now. 

I would love to see what other single image solutions you have seen that are much better than this. Especially as this handles occlusion tracking and generated a fully rigged and accurate performant head from a single image that matched the user.

Kelleytoons (8/8/2017)
Swoop,

It's cute, but as someone who has been around for many, many decades, I will believe this when it is available.  I cannot tell you how many companies, software AND hardware, that ended up as vaporware.  This thing isn't even in beta yet (you can sign up for the beta if you want) let alone how much it will cost, or even if it will be usable in some kind of engine like iClone (right now their target is Unity).

If the company and software is still around a year from now I'll be a believer -- again, I've seen things MUCH better than this never see any commercial release, so we'll have to see what happens (if they are any good Adobe will most likely buy them out and we'll never hear from them again anyway).


By animagic - 4 Years Ago
The last paragraph of the announcement talks about the updated CC morphs. In other words, RL had to make adjustments to make CC work with FaceWare.  It's more than the visemes and standard facial morphs as provided by the Facekey that you need.

We'll see what RL has to say, but I'm doubtful.


EDIT: there is actually more optimistic information in today's RL blog, where compatibility with DAZ is mentioned.

Here: https://blog.reallusion.com/2017/07/31/real-time-face-and-body-mocap-for-iclone-7-at-siggraph-2017/:

iClone 3D Character System with 60 Facial Morphs

In order to fully animate the facial capture detail, iClone 7 updated the Character Creator 3D Character Generation Systems with up to 60 Facial Morph capability. Enhance subtle detail on facial muscle control and make iClone 7 fully-compatible with the professional facial capturing standard provided by Faceware.

iClone 7 Facial Mocap Features

  • Compatible with Standard 3D Characters
    • 60 morph facial mapping ready for iClone, Character Creator and DAZ Genesis Characters
  • Custom Character Import
    • be able to custom import 3D characters via FBX, define facial morph targets using 3DXChange 7.

      etc...
By dr.zap - 4 Years Ago
raxel_67 (8/5/2017)
lp_movies/tvs (8/4/2017)
if it is in the $1000 can you guy set up a year or a two year plan  or a plan where you can pay off if you can pay for it all at once  it would help a lot of people 

I totally agree with this, specially because since the orange nightmare took office my country's currency has gone Down the crapper, so even if it is heavily discounted i wojld still have to make the choice of eating or mocaping my hungry Face, installments for payment would be awesome



LOL, you guys are joking right?  a two year plan?  Do you know how many times this software is likely to be updated in 2 whole years?  And I guess you want to keep the software while you're making payments right?  Because they can totally re-possess it if you stop paying.  They'll just send the repo man after youTongue...... But really, guys, I really don't think you have a handle on this software thing yet, but $1000 professional grade software on a 2 year plan is a hilarious idea.
By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
What is it... 6 or 7 years ago I paid 1K for markerless mocap software.
I'd load it with footage from my camcorder or a downloaded video and it produced very nice results.
For Clean-Up... you needed to have curve editor experience to achieve great results.
No complaints, here.

Today... the "sovlers" are more advanced and you have less clean up...
But...
Technology does get cheaper over the years, but faceware is amongst the latest...
With awesome solving and retargeting results.

I easily see why there highly accurate "High-End" results would cost 1200 bucks.

By justaviking - 4 Years Ago
I declare neutrality in the potential divide (which I sincerely hope does not happen).

I truly understand the value and allure of motion capture, both full-body and facial.  But for me personally, it's just not going to happen.  More hardware (potentially), more software, more money, one more set of skills to master, etc.  iClone is only one part of my "computer" hobby, with "hobby" being the key word.  Sure, some people spend $10k on a boat to support their fishing hobby, but even though I"m not poor, I do keep my hobby budget relatively modest.

I will follow the adventures of the mo-cap group with interest, and maybe a touch of envy, but I will certainly harbor no ill will toward them.  I wish them all the luck and success in the world.  All I ask is they also be respectful to those who do not go down that path.  Our animations might not quite as smooth (though the curve editor - and time spent using it - will help), but we're all here to make videos using whatever we can put in our toolbox.

I predict the adults here will prevail, and the iClone community will be fine.

Peace to all.
By argus1000 - 4 Years Ago
stuckon3d (8/7/2017)
Hi Resolution is not as important as FPS. 60 to 90 fps is preferred for best lip-sync capture


I just bought the Logitech C922x. It's the only webcam that operates at 60fps that I know of. Thanks, stuckon3d.

By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
@Stuckon3d
-Is there any known minimum resolution a video camera stream / file must be at for the plugin to read it properly?  I know you mentioned higher FPS is better, and that resolution was not as critical, so I was wondering is it known yet what the specs were on the resolution.
-Can the recorded motions be exported/saved as a single iMotion, or what is it saved as?  I know the '60 facial' motions thing was discussed as being applicable to CC Character, imported Genesis character, or standard iAvatar, so with a motion like you made at the conference, could you have saved that, and then retried it on different iAvatar types (CC created, from-Daz imported, default) interchangeably?

THX!!!!  
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
freerange (8/10/2017)
Actually that is Hao Li who made FaceShift which was Faceware's only real competitor at their price point. Faceshift was bought by Apple. 

The research project you are seeing here is already existing, as part of his USC research. They are just productizing it now. 

I would love to see what other single image solutions you have seen that are much better than this. Especially as this handles occlusion tracking and generated a fully rigged and accurate performant head from a single image that matched the user.

Kelleytoons (8/8/2017)
Swoop,

It's cute, but as someone who has been around for many, many decades, I will believe this when it is available.  I cannot tell you how many companies, software AND hardware, that ended up as vaporware.  This thing isn't even in beta yet (you can sign up for the beta if you want) let alone how much it will cost, or even if it will be usable in some kind of engine like iClone (right now their target is Unity).

If the company and software is still around a year from now I'll be a believer -- again, I've seen things MUCH better than this never see any commercial release, so we'll have to see what happens (if they are any good Adobe will most likely buy them out and we'll never hear from them again anyway).




And didn't you just prove my point, FR?  Apple bought out that product and it's gone...  The same thing could happen here.

And -- look, you're a kid and I understand you're in the industry now, but in decades I've seen TREMENDOUS software, much, MUCH better than what they are showing today at Siggraph, and it never made the light of day.  This particular project hasn't made the light of day (it's not even in beta yet).  Will it?  Perhaps.  Will it actually last or be available?  Perhaps as well, but I don't get excited about ANYTHING I've seen at a trade show until you can pay your money and get the product (the official released and supported project).  If I reported to my boss every breathless piece of wonder software I had seen I wouldn't have lasted long in my job (pretty demos, though).

(And, frankly, like Ani I wasn't thinking it looked any better than what CT can do and that hair wasn't dynamic and they didn't do long hair, which is the real challenge, so, no, it was okay but not great.  Mostly an interesting toy).

By raxel_67 - 4 Years Ago
Damn, too expensive for me, way too expensive, i'm sad
By LarryPlane - 4 Years Ago
Is this the same as the Facial Mocap with 'any webcam' that's supposed to be in 7.1?

If so, that's going to be way out of my price range. I had thought this was something that was just going to be included in 71 that they couldn't get working in 7.01. but now I suspect this is the 'required plugin' I've seen mentioned in the small print.

Someone tell me I'm wrong. please.....



By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Those video files will be *quite* a bit larger than audio files -- I'll be curious to see what folks come up with as acceptable solutions.

I have WD Mycloud drives that anyone can store to so that's one possibility for me.  It still means that folks without high speed internet will have to spend quite a bit of time uploading things, but it's better than nothing.
By kungphu - 4 Years Ago
justaviking (8/7/2017)


I predict the adults here will prevail, and the iClone community will be fine.

Peace to all.




I truly think that will be the case when the smoke clears. I can't think of any of the good folks who post on this board that I don't respect. That won't change. Some people will be angry and unhappy, but in the end some will have it and others won't. This isn't a make or break to simply tell a story. At the end of the day that's all that moviemaking is. Telling the audience your story and entertaining them. FW shouldn't stop me or anyone from making movies.

The biggest complaint will be that we waited this long for it and this is what we get? An overpriced solution? I think there were some unrealistic expectations for facial mocap to be "affordable." I expected affordable anywhere between a $800-$1500 range not a $150-$200 range for a premium product. It looks like they priced it close to the PN mocap solution. And by all the vids and reviews it is a really good solution with little cleanup needed. I've used the Kinect system with external software and had to spend time cleaning up lots of mocap data. It's a pain for sure even just retargetimg is a pain. This solution looks like it eliminates some of the cleanup hassle.

My audio studio is my first hobby and a source of very small income to buy more "toys" with; so I'll have to save up a little or find a paying gig if I want FW. In the meantime if I have to wait and others buy it, I won't be upset or divided. I'll continue making bad Smile movies and telling goofy stories, because that's what iClone lets someone like me with zero animation experience do. I'll be super interested to see how others use the FW plug. Looks like RL are shaking things up at Siggraph!
By ckalan1 - 4 Years Ago
Could you please post some FW iclone examples so we can see what you are talking about. Thanks very much.
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
but0fc0ursee (8/8/2017)
Faceware mocap plugin for iClone doesn't accept video.... image sequences.


Peter(RL) / Stuckon3D,
My question is in fact addressing a "video stream" (which Stuckon3D was using), or "a file", which can in fact of course be an "image file" (jpg, png, tga, bitmap, etc...) as part of an image sequence, and not necessarily a "video" (mp4, mov, wmv, etc...).  
Now, let's say the image file is 256x256, is this okay?  or does it need to be 1280x720, or minimum resolution, or aspect ratio for that matter?
Is there any specific minimum spec that has been identified yet.

As but0fc0ursee semantically interpreted "file" to mean "video", perhaps in fact there may be other semantic interpretation or misinterpretation.  So what exactly does the following mean, as it relates to the plugin reading live video, elements of pre-recorded files....THX!
"Features-based Capture and Imported Image Sequence"

By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago
lp_movies/tvs (8/9/2017)
pater do you know when pricing will be know for just faceware well be  so I can save up before the deal goes so I don't miss the lowest prices 


Unfortunately there are still some things to finalise with Faceware but we getting closer to announcing the launch offer pricing.
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
So if I understand this correctly, the "normal" price for those of us who already have Pipeline would be around $1200, but there will be a special "introductory" price announced "soon" (so sometime before September?  Or at least before release in September?)

Traditionally RL has offered things at around 20-25% off the "normal" price (sometimes MUCH higher, like 50%, but never less than 20).  So I'm guessing we are looking at a starting price around $700 to just under $1K.  I would hope for that price this is STUPENDOUS (certainly much better than anything Adobe has for their own "free" (free with cloud) face capture stuff).  I fully expect this to be a turnkey facial capture system that requires little, if any, post capture cleanup.
By mtakerkart - 4 Years Ago
 will their be an annual licensing fee for continual use? 


I think it's a purchase price not a rental price regarding the Faceware site price list.
By mtakerkart - 4 Years Ago
 I don't make any money with my movies either


That's the Hobbyist paradox Animagic Wink
They want Broadcast and professionnal feature with a "chinese" price.... And when Reallusion propose affordable price
for it (kinect mocap, puppetering facial) they yell that is crap.....
I'm only 5 years old in the Reallusion field and  I understand now their choices . Why spending 300 000$ and 2 years of developpment
with a technology that will be change in 2 years??Today  In my country subsidy are refused to develop tools that exist on the market at an offrdable price for industry.
Why reinventing the wheel??

But for me , what I understood is that the 1200 $ (regular price) Reallusion facial plugin include the Faceware live access. 
After 5 years in Reallusion the only thing I didn't understand is their marketing !! Tongue 
I think it's a cultural Wink
By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
By dr.zap - 4 Years Ago
By the way, for anyone who is squeamish about Faceware's price tag, you need to do some research.  Check out the prices on companies like Dynamixyz, Optitrak and Vicon.  When you're finished counting the zeros on their prices, maybe you will come running to give your wallet to Faceware.  You really don't know what a deal it is.
By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
Kelleytoons (8/7/2017)

Yeah, except most camcorders and such produce MOV files (all Canon and Sony do, for example) .  And at 60fps (apparently the minimum needed for lip sync) even at 720p you're looking at 65mb per 10 seconds.  So these files WILL be big, no question about it (they can't be easily emailed as most email servers won't even allow you to send such large files).

As I said.


I solve this having my clients process the camcorder data with Camtasia Studio and quickly create a HD mp4 that emails easily.

By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
Kelleytoons (8/8/2017)
Actually, I asked RL themselves about the FW plugin and they said it DID accept video files as well as sequences.  Either they were mistaken or someone here is, but in any case I wouldn't worry about it until we get more official news.


Agreed, it is not entirely clear. 
And as such, we need to know and learn as much as we can about how this works now, lest confusion reign!
Plus, I want to know NOW!
All the stuff....
Saved face motion options within iClone (I know the FBX export thing), how is it saved within the iClone prog?  Is it transferrable? 
And the whole image vs video thing...just what is the deal...What is the Deal!?
By dr.zap - 4 Years Ago
 Reallsuion is connecting with the industry-leading motion capture providers to iClone 7 delivering a face mocap solution that is quick, adaptable to existing pipeline and works with specialty pro helmets.


If it works with specialty helmets, it should work with any cam.  Those helmets usually have GoPro or similar cameras attached.  Can also use pre-recorded video http://renderositymagazine.com/reallusion-partners-with-faceware-xsens-at-siggraph-cms-1343
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
I think Reallusion would create an excellent self-produced product if they would do it by themselves, I do not doubt it!...  
By raxel_67 - 4 Years Ago
Kelleytoons (8/6/2017)
Raxel,

I hear and agree with you -- and this (the FW plugin) is likely to divide iClone users into two very distinct warring camps (although to be fair that Zap guy isn't even an iClone user -- I like how folks come here to troll and have ZERO understanding of what we do).

We are likely to see a handful (a HANDFUL) of iClone users willing to spend $1K on this.  The rest, the vast majority, will find it a terrible price to pay, all the more terrible in that (for the most part) we had zero idea the promised "facial mocap" solution would be so costly.  I'd have to, myself, consider just whether I would have even upgraded to 7 if I had known (the facial mocap was the ENTIRE reason I upgraded).

To be fair, we still need to see what RL will offer us -- I have some, slim, hope that the initial price will at least be reasonable.  But for others not to understand how much of a hardship this, the thing we had been promised for so long (seems like at least a couple of years) just shows how clueless a lot of folks are.


thank you!
By thebiz.movies - 4 Years Ago
I tend to side on the "jeez this is expensive" side.  I also really wanted to partake in the Noitom mocap software but that outside of my budget.   Such is life.  Businesses make business decisions and the customers react.  Im not going to get out my pitchfork just because the company made a decision without worrying about my budget.  

However, I figured we would see more people selling custom motions via the body suits.  Initially I did not see that ability with facial capture as who would sell premade facial animation.  However, with this video input ability I could potentially pay someone with the software to animate my own (or my voice actors) facial motions which I guess is what swoop is referring to.  Perhaps someone who can afford the software will set up a service that will do just that at a reasonable price for those of us who are not "professionals".  Would be a nice way to recoup their investment....  
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
dr.zap (8/7/2017)
TonyDPrime (8/7/2017)

Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?  Is it on a solutions-specific basis, outside of the scope of normal use type-thing, like consulting?  Or, is it paying, like insurance or a warranty plan on a product, if the product fails?  Like, is the product so riddled with obstacles, issues, and faults that the average user is expected to expect they occur, and thus you get the optimized experience if you have support?  
 


Since you seem to be unaware of how professionals work, I will explain things as simply as I can.  I am not in the 3d/FX business, but most collaborative business works this way:
Faceware is not intended to be a stand alone product.  It is designed to be used in a production pipeline consisting of many different products.  Since technology is always evolving (some product updates are monthly), there is a constant need to adjust your product to a needed pipeline.  There will always be bugs in this process.  In addition, the film industry (and more and more, the gaming industry) are on the cutting edge of technology.  It is their needs and ideas that drive products like Faceware to get better and better.  For example, maybe a company like Disney has developed some software in-house and they want Faceware to connect with it (just an example).  Faceware has a support team that can deal with that because that means lucrative business for them.  Of course they are also on call for indie studios and hobbyists who are having problems making the software do what they want.  Anyhow, I don't know why you ask this question.  Every decent company has support.  I have customer support for my low-tech refrigerator.  It certainly isn't any indication of how faulty a product may be.

--------------------------------------

By the way, for anyone who is squeamish about Faceware'sprice tag, you need to do some research. Check out the prices on companies like Dynamixyz, Optitrak andVicon.  When you're finished counting thezeros on their prices, maybe you will come running to give your wallet toFaceware.  You really don't know what adeal it is.




"I am not in the 3d/FX business"....Don't downplay your talents and skills.  They are great!  You know value vs non-value.
You raise a very good point -  Are we going to be paying a premium price for a low tech refrigerator's 'support'...And, are you (the iClone community) going to blindly "come running to give them your wallet."  


By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
Kelleytoons (8/7/2017)
Did I see what?  Watch a 90 minute video?  Sorry, but I have a life.

Here you go.
You can create unlimited characters and "Hair Styles" in seconds. w00t
Real Time Live Wow


By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Okay, thanks -- (whoever answered on your FB page got it wrong, then, because I specifically asked about that and they specifically said "video OR sequence")
By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago
raxel_67 (8/1/2017)
Damn, too expensive for me, way too expensive, i'm sad


The prices shown are the regular prices. You can expect the early bird promo prices to be heavily discounted for iClone 7 users. Don't give up yet. Smile
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Don't shoot the messenger but, yes, this is indeed the facial mocap RL has promised for iClone for quite some time.

And, yes, the price is outrageous -- but according to the pro here that's seen it (and some scattered reports from Siggraph) this is supposed to be da bomb.  IOW, they did it better than anyone else, even the very $$$ high-end folks.  Of course, that's little solace to those of us who find the price unaffordable.

There's a *bit* of hope -- we know there is going to be an 'early bird" price, much as we get with a lot of things RL offers.  And Peter has hinted that it may well be affordable (I don't think he would have tantalized us with that hint unless it's a big discount -- IOW, my gut tells me that 40-50% off is not out of the question.  That *would* be in line with things RL has done in the past).

Admittedly, even $600 is a lot to ask for a plugin to a program that costs less than that.  But if it's truly an out-of-the-park experience, it may well be worth it.  OTOH, the closer the price comes to the list the less attractive it will be to a lot of us (the core of iClone users who have been asking for this for a long, long time).  In that case it will be a real slap in the face.

Let's wait a few weeks and see what happens.
By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
Kelleytoons (8/7/2017)
Those video files will be *quite* a bit larger than audio files -- I'll be curious to see what folks come up with as acceptable solutions.

I have WD Mycloud drives that anyone can store to so that's one possibility for me.  It still means that folks without high speed internet will have to spend quite a bit of time uploading things, but it's better than nothing.

My 7 year old markerless mocap software accepts (mp4) videos. HD and very small.
I receive dozens of videos a week to process.

FW is newer and it should accept mp4 without problems.



By dr.zap - 4 Years Ago
kungphu (8/7/2017)


My audio studio is my first hobby and a source of very small income to buy more "toys" with; so I'll have to save up a little or find a paying gig if I want FW. In the meantime if I have to wait and others buy it, I won't be upset or divided. I'll continue making bad Smile movies and telling goofy stories, because that's what iClone lets someone like me with zero animation experience do. I'll be super interested to see how others use the FW plug. Looks like RL are shaking things up at Siggraph!


These are the words of a true filmmaker!  Before mocap, people were telling great stories.  If your aim is to tell a story, there are always inexpensive tools to do so.  You don't need the best technology.  Your imagination is your best tool.  We can lust at the latest high-end toys, but in the end, an artist can create his own masterpiece with whatever he has.  Good comment.

By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
but0fc0ursee (8/7/2017)
Kelleytoons (8/7/2017)
Those video files will be *quite* a bit larger than audio files -- I'll be curious to see what folks come up with as acceptable solutions.

I have WD Mycloud drives that anyone can store to so that's one possibility for me.  It still means that folks without high speed internet will have to spend quite a bit of time uploading things, but it's better than nothing.

My 7 year old markerless mocap software accepts (mp4) videos. HD and very small.
I receive dozens of videos a week to process.

FW is newer and it should accept mp4 without problems.


Yeah, except most camcorders and such produce MOV files (all Canon and Sony do, for example) .  And at 60fps (apparently the minimum needed for lip sync) even at 720p you're looking at 65mb per 10 seconds.  So these files WILL be big, no question about it (they can't be easily emailed as most email servers won't even allow you to send such large files).

As I said.

By animagic - 4 Years Ago
I would think that the resolution in part determines how fine a distinction the capture software is able to make. So for very subtle facial changes you would want a higher resolution. Another question is the relationship between resolution and tracking capability.
By LP_movies/tvs - 4 Years Ago
thanks for getting back to me peter
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Yeah, but that's not really my question -- what I want to know is if it will work with any VIDEO.

All the examples of FW head mounted  GoPro cam show it hardwired into the computer.  That is NOT what I want -- as I said, if we only have one license linked to a machine (which will be my desktop) I will have problems recording stuff remotely.  What I want to know is if it can take a video that has been pre-recorded.
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
You're probably right, Tony, but I understand completely why they wouldn't want to invest a lot of programmer time for this until and unless they knew the market size.  Partnering with FW they will at least get a guesstimate and, who knows, perhaps they will also offer their own plug-in down the road.

I am awaiting with baited breath (but I can take a mint :>Wink to see what the "early bird special" price on this will be.  No one pays list price on anything anymore, so just because the announced price is $1200 doesn't mean RL will *ever* sell it at that price (has anyone here really bought iClone at list?  I didn't think so).  So you figure that "normally" they'll sell it perhaps bundled up so you can discount at least a few hundred off of it.  But the early bird price?  That could be as heavily discounted as 50%, although my gut tells me 40% if the max they will go.  If they can get the price *close* to $600 it will be a lot more palatable to those folks not making money from their animations.

Remember this, too -- as folks have noted here many times before, there aren't a whole lot of videos out there on the web that really show off what iClone can do other than in a "demo" mode.  The number of truly immersive things you can watch, those with a story that would be compelling even without quality animation, you can probably count on one hand.  The more of those things that proliferate the better RL will be, and getting this mocap software in the hands of as many as possible will facilitate that.  And that will NOT, by and large, come from those making games or VR stuff, but rather from the hobbyists that make up the core of RL's market.
By animagic - 4 Years Ago
Kelleytoons (8/6/2017)
I hear and agree with you -- and this (the FW plugin) is likely to divide iClone users into two very distinct warring camps (although to be fair that Zap guy isn't even an iClone user -- I like how folks come here to troll and have ZERO understanding of what we do).

Let's hope it doesn't come to that. Most actual iClone USERS are quite reasonable and helpful. We certainly don't need another conflict such as ensued when IClone 6 was introduced. That was a very unpleasant time on the forum.
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
And that's where we get the great divide (trust me, I'm old, I've seen this many, many times).

Soon it will be the haves and the have nots around here.  It will not be pretty.
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
but0fc0ursee (8/7/2017)
TonyDPrime (8/7/2017)
Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?

You regularlly hear: iClone Real Time Live....

When you enter the realm of "High-End".... "Professional Grade"....Top of the Line software....this is what you get:
~ Copyright Algorithms
"Marketed for Professional Use"

Real Time Live

From this point forward..... "They got you and they know it." You want THIS?.... PAY THIS!
Don't like it?.... don't buy it?

Reallusion teaming up with Faceware and XSens provides iClone with "PRO TOOLS."
Pro Tools cost big $$$.




None of the video was iClone!  The face thing with the flashlight was awesome though!
BTW - in the music production industry, 'ProTools' is the most over-priced and over-hyped hardware-software package ever!
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Swoop,

It's cute, but as someone who has been around for many, many decades, I will believe this when it is available.  I cannot tell you how many companies, software AND hardware, that ended up as vaporware.  This thing isn't even in beta yet (you can sign up for the beta if you want) let alone how much it will cost, or even if it will be usable in some kind of engine like iClone (right now their target is Unity).

If the company and software is still around a year from now I'll be a believer -- again, I've seen things MUCH better than this never see any commercial release, so we'll have to see what happens (if they are any good Adobe will most likely buy them out and we'll never hear from them again anyway).
By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago
Kelleytoons (8/9/2017)
Okay, thanks -- (whoever answered on your FB page got it wrong, then, because I specifically asked about that and they specifically said "video OR sequence")


Hi KT...

Video support may possibly come in the future but the version I'm using can only use camera input or sequence images.
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
Here is one group of questions, for me, that if answered will either make this of value, or not of value.  I would want to hear an answer from RL, itself. 

Daz character, brought into 3DXchange and made into an iAvatar, with no issues and under all the optimal circumstances (exported from Daz with Facekey, etc).

Will this iAvatar character have, through use of the Faceware plugin:
(1) Facial Mocap abilities identical to that of CC iAvatar
(2) Facial Mocap abilities not same as that of CC iAvatar 

And if #2, what are differences?  Workarounds?
By raxel_67 - 4 Years Ago
lp_movies/tvs (8/4/2017)
if it is in the $1000 can you guy set up a year or a two year plan  or a plan where you can pay off if you can pay for it all at once  it would help a lot of people 

I totally agree with this, specially because since the orange nightmare took office my country's currency has gone Down the crapper, so even if it is heavily discounted i wojld still have to make the choice of eating or mocaping my hungry Face, installments for payment would be awesome
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
LOL.
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
See, Dr. Zap....with stills you don't have to worry about any of this....Wink
By kungphu - 4 Years Ago

BTW - in the music production industry, 'ProTools' is the most over-priced and over-hyped hardware-software package ever!




Ha! Sounds like you're an audio guy like me. I was going to bring up Pro Tools. They charge support as well. They have tons of third party apps and they aren't always coded well to play nicely with pro tools and it isnt uncommon to have a crash or two working in PT. Hence the support. I never pay for it. I've hated PT forever but have finally come to peace with it. For mixing it's tough to beat. But yeah, I have so many work arounds it's kinda funny. Avid as a whole is terrible treating their customers. I'm not sure if FW has that reputation.

I think what RL is asking us to pay for is simply a lowered but premium price for a premium professional tool. It may rub people the wrong way that wanted a cheaper less professional tool. Since RL main business is previz it makes sense them partnering with professional companies. It does put the squeeze on their other market, the hobbyist who does t make movies for profit. But you can see the logic there.
By TheOldBuffer - 4 Years Ago
There's certainly some cool stuff at Siggraph, hope some of it makes it onto the market
By animagic - 4 Years Ago
freerange (8/10/2017)
Actually that is Hao Li who made FaceShift which was Faceware's only real competitor at their price point. Faceshift was bought by Apple. 

The research project you are seeing here is already existing, as part of his USC research. They are just productizing it now. 

I would love to see what other single image solutions you have seen that are much better than this. Especially as this handles occlusion tracking and generated a fully rigged and accurate performant head from a single image that matched the user.

What was missing though was a full view of the head (side and back). It was now sort of the same as you get with CrazyTalk 8 3D heads. CT head creation is not fully automatic, obviously, but that is not such a big deal. Hair was nice, but is it dynamic?
By kungphu - 4 Years Ago
First off... take my money please! Great news!!! I have a project kicking off first week of October. Hopefully the kinks are worked out by then. Eager to try this out!
By mtakerkart - 4 Years Ago
Scuze me guys but I'm very confused of what  I saw on this thread and what I saw on the Faceware page pricing.
So can some one explain me what all of Faceware wrote on their site because English is not my mother language
and I think Google translate need more AI to be accurate.

First Faceware said:
Software Pricing   All of our software licenses require a simple flat license fee and annual support subscription.  There is no cost per second to use our software.


I understund that it is a permanent license and you  rent a support if you want for resolving issue , hotline,update , etc....


 Am I wrong when I interpret this picture of faceware for Unreal Client???


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/793371d0-1e70-45dc-bd13-1938.jpg
By argus1000 - 4 Years Ago
Faceware RT's price is a little steep, of course, but --after seeing their regular software price on their site-- I kind of expected it.

For my previous movies (made with Carrara), I used  to hire different voice-actors through the Internet, and they would record their lines at home and email the MP3s back to me from all over the continent. I would then put a voice to my characters.

For the facial capture, I thought I would have to have the actors come to my home. That would severely limit my range of actors. Faceware RT SOLVED that problem. The voice-actors just have to own a webcam, film themselves recording their lines at home and send the video back to me through the Internet.

That's what's so wonderful about Faceware RT.

By dr.zap - 4 Years Ago
I'm sorry if I ruffled the feathers of some of you here, but I was giving you a dose of clear reality.  What you are asking for is humorous..... and dangerous.  You want Reallusion to become a bank do you?  You don't know it, but what you are really doing is inviting them to start charging rental fees for their software.  Do you really think they will add more complexity to their business for the sole purpose of "helping you out"?  That is delightful naivety.  They are a business.  Business requires steady income to grow and innovate.  Maintaining a system such as you are suggesting won't happen unless there are financial rewards.  This means a software rental structure.  Be careful what you wish for!

To look at things more realistically, you are asking for advanced technology when you are not able to pay the very reasonable price.  Why not be your own bank?  If I can't afford to acquire something that I want, I put my monthly payments aside (do you have a piggy bank?) until I have enough to purchase it.  Then I can buy it without asking for the retailer to loan me the money.  This is a more reasonable way to buy a Cadillac on a Pinto budgetTongue  I believe this is called "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps"?   So you see, I am very aware of the limitations of hobbyists (I myself am a hobbyist) but I am also very aware of the real world.  If you want the best,  you have to pay for it.  Either with your time or your money or both.  If it is worth it, you should be glad to sacrifice for it.  If it isn't worth it, maybe you can find another solution at a dirt cheap price that is as good as Faceware.
By kungphu - 4 Years Ago
stuckon3d (8/7/2017) I will ask RL if I can post some videos of the raw capture so that you can see the quality of this product, it really is worth it and the price is unbeatable considering the quality. There is nothing out there at this price point/quality. Hope this helps. 

Cheers,

Stuckon3d
  




Yes please, that would be awesome. The quality may sway some of those on the fence. Sounds pretty amazing!
By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
Faceware mocap plugin for iClone doesn't accept video.... image sequences.
By freerange - 4 Years Ago
What's your point, Reallusion could be snatched up but another company. Doesn't make the software any less relevant. Is in beta now, tried out the alpha a while ago. Pinscreen does do hair reconstruction though it is not a full fiber based sim, Hao Li has a lot of publish papers in hair capture as well Once again name one software that can generate a full performant head from a single image and handle tracking with occlusion like theirs can. 

A kid, seriously? Obviously you are coming here to be contrarian and condescending and really just to complain. I get it, you are playing grumpy old man stereotype. Pointless trying to have a discussion.

For the rest of the users, Reallusion had many choices to pick from, but Faceware was a company that was no only willing to partner with them but provides a very good solution that is considered very cost effective by those who know face tracking and works with standard hardware. Simple as that. Those of us that have used it, know it works very well and is reliable. It costs no more than iClones PN body tracking solution so fits an existing pricing model. The fact that Faceware was willing to partner with them on a solution might be 75% of the reason Faceware was chosen, I don't know. Could also be Faceware is heavily used in the game industry (also TV and film) which Reallusion would love to have strong foothold in. Whatever the reasons this is the solution that Reallusion has been able to give to their users and it is a very good one. 



By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
raxel_67 (8/1/2017)
Damn, too expensive for me, way too expensive, i'm sad


I'm afraid that will be true of a lot of folks who otherwise would have bought this.  Hopefully the "special introductory price" will be low enough for you to consider it, at least.

Oops, Peter was cross-posting --  but that's extremely encouraging to have him say so.  We *have* seen early bird prices as cheap as 50% off the regular ones, so there may well be hope (and hopefully we'll know soon, as I suspect a lot of folks would be glad to hop on pre-buying, particularly if the price is right).
By LarryPlane - 4 Years Ago
Thanks my friend for stating the facts for me. I am disappointed that none of the promo videos mentioned the plugin price would be sooooooo high, but I guess that's marketing for you!to

To be honest, at my level of use, anything north pf 150 dollars needs to be thought about carefully. anything around 600dollars won't be thought about at all.

Sorry! I just thought a plugin that used a webcams would be around a hundred bucks or less. I guess I am living in fantasy land. back to hand crafting those facial animations.
By CaseClosed - 4 Years Ago
Facial mocap is crucial for getting those magical results in your project. When I first got involved with iClone just over two years ago, I spent a lot of time researching facial mocap software, and methods for getting facial mocap into iClone. I got trial versions of multiple facial mocap softwares, including Faceware RT. Faceware RT, by far, by a landslide, by all measures gave the best results, and was easiest to use. I could use my iPhone to record my face, and it gave incredible facial mocap results, easily. After the initial process of making Faceware RT familiar with my face the first time, I could record my face with new performances, and Faceware remembered my settings and produced super high quality facial animation.

The problem was, I had to use the 3D software Maya to put the results to an avatar. Reallusion Character Creator came out soon after, and I wanted the facial mocap all in one suite of products... Reallusion. I talked to both Reallusion, and to Faceware to try to get it to happen. At the time, it couldn’t be done.

Now it’s happening. I’ve been checking in on the forum for the past 2 years to see if Reallusion created a facial mocap solution, and I just found this topic discussion. I couldn’t have asked for anything better. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that the quality is as good within iClone as it is within Faceware RT. If it is, then I advise everybody who has trouble paying the price to do what they can to collect the money and pay the price, because it will be worth it. The price they already suggested is so much lower than a Maya user has to pay for Faceware RT (about $3500) to get the same results. 

This news is HUGE for iClone users. I’m currently seeing what I can do to budget time on my other creative projects so I have time to rejoin the fun with iClone with Faceware.

Peace.
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
I think the group is making some great observations.  Here are some very recent that I think should totally be taken into consideration if a premium price.  It is not me asking each person to justify or explain the comment further.  Rather, I think they are making valid points for the rest of us to consider:

(1) Rampa - "Add a zero! (Wink) That's pro equipment."

Consideration - does the pro equipment yield 'best' results.  If 'yes', then what are the non-best results from non-pro equipment going to look like.  And is it to you justified that you pay a premium for that. 


(2) Kungphu - "I've used the Kinect system with external softwareand had to spend time cleaning up lots of mocap data. It's a pain for sure evenjust retargetimg is a pain. This solution looks like it eliminates some of thecleanup hassle."


Consideration - on the videos posted by a couple users in this topic, RL itself does address that the viseme and the face motions can be layered and tweaked for perfection.  Is this - cleaning mocap data and retargeting - the necessity though?  If it is, Is this worth a premium price


(3) Dr.Zap - "If it is worth it, you should be glad to sacrificefor it.
  If it isn't worth it, maybe youcan find another solution at a dirt cheap price that is as good as Faceware."

Consideration - did the product "Wow" you?  Are you not glad to just
sacrifice for it?  If not - What in fact would have made it worth it at premium price?

By mtakerkart - 4 Years Ago
Deleted post
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Actually, I asked RL themselves about the FW plugin and they said it DID accept video files as well as sequences.  Either they were mistaken or someone here is, but in any case I wouldn't worry about it until we get more official news.
By LP_movies/tvs - 4 Years Ago
thanks for getting back to me peter
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Perhaps either Joe or someone at Siggraph can comment on this: do you HAVE to use a "PC Cam" in order to do the mocap for iClone, or will a video source (pre-recorded) be acceptable?

I'm guessing this will be a case where the FW plugin can't be installed on more than one machine (like iClone can -- you can have it on your laptop as well as your desktop).  If so, those of us that will normally use it on our desktops will have a PITA when it comes to trying to record actors remotely (out and about).  It would be nice for that much money to be able to use *any* video source for the capture.
By freerange - 4 Years Ago
They were in the booth today at SIGGRAPH doing live performance capture with both Faceware and Xsens smoothly (even with all the radio interference) running off a single box. Every other solution on the expo floor was a multi-box setup. The Meet Mike one I think requires like 5 systems to capture everything. 

This is a game changing solutions for independent content producers and the cost savings are use when compared to the alternatives. Like I said in the linked articles it is the best implementation of Faceware I have seen. 

This setup was by far the cheapest facial performance capture setup in the expo and the quality was equal to solutions costing significantly more. 

How much do you think it would cost if Reallusion had to develop a quality facial tracking system (that didn't get them sued) from scratch or what sort of quality do you think they could get with a janky cheap solution that would give you results that needed more work in fix than just doing it by hand?

Reallusion is instead giving their users feature film quality performance capture for indie prices. 


By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Raxel,

I hear and agree with you -- and this (the FW plugin) is likely to divide iClone users into two very distinct warring camps (although to be fair that Zap guy isn't even an iClone user -- I like how folks come here to troll and have ZERO understanding of what we do).

We are likely to see a handful (a HANDFUL) of iClone users willing to spend $1K on this.  The rest, the vast majority, will find it a terrible price to pay, all the more terrible in that (for the most part) we had zero idea the promised "facial mocap" solution would be so costly.  I'd have to, myself, consider just whether I would have even upgraded to 7 if I had known (the facial mocap was the ENTIRE reason I upgraded).

To be fair, we still need to see what RL will offer us -- I have some, slim, hope that the initial price will at least be reasonable.  But for others not to understand how much of a hardship this, the thing we had been promised for so long (seems like at least a couple of years) just shows how clueless a lot of folks are.
By Rampa - 4 Years Ago
TonyDPrime (8/7/2017)
Was that Stuckon3D, it sounded like it could be him doing the "hello...Zane...insane..." bit?

The boxer part was pretty impressive, although the facial mocap itself had some latency, is that the case in Faceware live as well?...
Did it look that convincing to you?  If that was in a video game I would say it was so-so motion capture...
I never really considered how that might take some getting used to if you would be speaking at the same time.   
The whole gear was the faceware helmet and then the xsens suit. about $2K-3K?


Add a zero! Wink That's pro equipment.

By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
@Kellytoons,

Did you see that?
~ Scan a photo
~ 3D Hair with detailed poly strips. (Solves different hair style request) Wow
~ 3D avatar with distinct features (the mesh conforms to the image)... Cheeks, Forehead, Chin, Nose, Eyes.... all change SHAPE.w00t
~ Facial mocap
Real Time Live
By justaviking - 4 Years Ago
but0fc0ursee (8/7/2017)
Here you go.


Your video is "Private" and we can't watch it.
Change it to "Unlisted" if you don't want it publicly discoverable.
By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago
Kelleytoons (8/8/2017)
Actually, I asked RL themselves about the FW plugin and they said it DID accept video files as well as sequences.  Either they were mistaken or someone here is, but in any case I wouldn't worry about it until we get more official news.


The Faceware RTiC plugin supports camera or image sequence input only. You will need to convert video to image sequence first.
By toystorylab - 4 Years Ago
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/299d151a-7e5e-4dd5-a48c-5393.png

So, you will have to convert your video into an image sequence...
But that should not be the problem BigGrin
Sounds good but the costs are for the moment too high for me...

By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
For high accuracy and "Little Clean-Up:"...
....at the end of the day.... You're paying for (FW's) (High-End) algorithms.  (Analyzer & Retarget)

Special offer...you'll be lucky to get it for 1,000 usd.
By raxel_67 - 4 Years Ago
That is why i think the payment plan would be a great solution, it puts the plugin at everybody's reach without being financial suicide and we can avoid dumb and divisive discussions. $1200 too much for you? Don't worry you can make 2 600 dollars payments, or even pay that in six months. RL has the drm to protect themselves, and they can sell more copies of the plugin. To me this sounds like a win win for both the users and RL
By Rampa - 4 Years Ago
Here's another video that's pretty interesting.


By mtakerkart - 4 Years Ago
I will ask RL if I can post some videos of the raw capture


Oh Yes! Ho Yes!!  w00t

Thank you Stuckon3d
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Swoop -- it's ALWAYS vaporware until it's released (you'd be amazed at how much great code is out there, never released.  It's not enough to be good, or even first.  You have to be in the right place, at the right time.  And Adobe is well known for buying and killing stuff like this.  We shall see).
By LP_movies/tvs - 4 Years Ago
pater do you know when pricing will be know for just faceware well be  so I can save up before the deal goes so I don't miss the lowest prices 
By mtakerkart - 4 Years Ago
Thank you Joe! Can't wait the pre-order ! Have a nice Siggraph show too!!
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
animagic (7/31/2017)
The last paragraph of the announcement talks about the updated CC morphs. In other words, RL had to make adjustments to make CC work with FaceWare.  It's more than the visemes and standard facial morphs as provided by the Facekey that you need.

We'll see what RL has to say, but I'm doubtful.


EDIT: there is actually more optimistic information in today's RL blog, where compatibility with DAZ is mentioned.

Here: https://blog.reallusion.com/2017/07/31/real-time-face-and-body-mocap-for-iclone-7-at-siggraph-2017/:

iClone 3D Character System with 60 Facial Morphs

In order to fully animate the facial capture detail, iClone 7 updated the Character Creator 3D Character Generation Systems with up to 60 Facial Morph capability. Enhance subtle detail on facial muscle control and make iClone 7 fully-compatible with the professional facial capturing standard provided by Faceware.

iClone 7 Facial Mocap Features

  • Compatible with Standard 3D Characters
    • 60 morph facial mapping ready for iClone, Character Creator and DAZ Genesis Characters
  • Custom Character Import
    • be able to custom import 3D characters via FBX, define facial morph targets using 3DXChange 7.

      etc...


Now that is very exciting! BigGrin
By raxel_67 - 4 Years Ago
dr.zap (8/5/2017)
raxel_67 (8/5/2017)
lp_movies/tvs (8/4/2017)
if it is in the $1000 can you guy set up a year or a two year plan  or a plan where you can pay off if you can pay for it all at once  it would help a lot of people 

I totally agree with this, specially because since the orange nightmare took office my country's currency has gone Down the crapper, so even if it is heavily discounted i wojld still have to make the choice of eating or mocaping my hungry Face, installments for payment would be awesome



LOL, you guys are joking right?  a two year plan?  Do you know how many times this software is likely to be updated in 2 whole years?  And I guess you want to keep the software while you're making payments right?  Because they can totally re-possess it if you stop paying.  They'll just send the repo man after youTongue...... But really, guys, I really don't think you have a handle on this software thing yet, but $1000 professional grade software on a 2 year plan is a hilarious idea.


First of all, thanks for making fun of our situation, something we have to live with everyday, so I guess we can appreciate someone making fun of this because it is just too damn funny, the 2 year plan was a suggestion by one poster,could be done in several ways. and yes I expect to use it while I pay, because the repo man is called DRM and will probably come in the shape of a serial number which can be invalidated remotely in case of lack of payment, I'm sure you know this with your inmense and vast knowledge of software. Our point is that for us paying a thousand dollars in one sitting is not a viable option, but please forgive us for not being loaded with cash.

Next time you decide something is funny, take two seconds and practice some god damned empathy before posting.
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
Was that Stuckon3D, it sounded like it could be him doing the "hello...Zane...insane..." bit?

The boxer part was pretty impressive, although the facial mocap itself had some latency, is that the case in Faceware live as well?...
Did it look that convincing to you?  If that was in a video game I would say it was so-so motion capture...
I never really considered how that might take some getting used to if you would be speaking at the same time.   
The whole gear was the faceware helmet and then the xsens suit. about $2K-3K?
By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
TonyDPrime (8/7/2017)
Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?

You regularlly hear: iClone Real Time Live....

When you enter the realm of "High-End".... "Professional Grade"....Top of the Line software....this is what you get:
~ Copyright Algorithms
"Marketed for Professional Use"

Real Time Live

From this point forward..... "They got you and they know it." You want THIS?.... PAY THIS!
Don't like it?.... don't buy it?

Reallusion teaming up with Faceware and XSens provides iClone with "PRO TOOLS."
Pro Tools cost big $$$.


By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
...delete duplicate video
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
TonyDPrime (8/8/2017)
Kelleytoons (8/8/2017)
Actually, I asked RL themselves about the FW plugin and they said it DID accept video files as well as sequences.  Either they were mistaken or someone here is, but in any case I wouldn't worry about it until we get more official news.


Agreed, it is not entirely clear. 
And as such, we need to know and learn as much as we can about how this works now, lest confusion reign!
Plus, I want to know NOW!


And we want the software... NOW!!

Two years ago I started this thread on the forum:  https://forum.reallusion.com/261937/Real-Illusion-REALLY-needs-to-get-Facial-Mocap-NOW?Keywords=facial%20mocap

That's how important facial mocap is to me.  It was all I really wanted out of iClone, all I have been waiting for all these years.  So, yes, I want to know everything about it, I want to know the actual cost to me, and (most importantly) I just WANT IT NOW!!!!  <bg>.

For an old man, two years is about 50% of my lifetime (that which is left).  So they had better release this soon.

By kungphu - 4 Years Ago
Yep! Let's hope the early bird special hits that sweet spot as far as price point. This is a big one many people have been waiting for. Love the excitement in the air for this one!!!
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
When it was first announced (not the FW but the idea of a facial mocap plugin) I was thinking along your own lines.  A few hundred would be in line with most of the stuff iClone has done like this (for example, their Kinect mocap plugin).  And there are a lot of facial capture things out there that are either free (like Adobe's, although it's 2D and works with a cloud subscription) or priced in that range (like Brekel's Facial Capture program).

Apparently, RL decided to go the Rolls Royce route (or perhaps nowadays it's a different car -- I'm an old man and can't spell Lamborghini anyway :>Wink.  It's a departure from their client base, but I do understand in some ways they wanted to do it as right as possible, and as someone else has pointed out here, just because they have a FW implementation doesn't preclude other possibilities down the road (although my hunch is they won't spend any more time now that they have any solution in place).

The list price is staggering to any hobbyist -- there are some here who don't flinch, but I can assure them they are in the minority.  I'd guess 98% of iClone's marketshare is folks who don't make a dime with it.  Those who do are thrilled, but they won't number in the hundreds, let alone thousands, so RL will be leaving money on the table.

Again, I hope it's closer to $600 than $1200, but I do understand how even THAT price is a lot.  The gold standard for most software in this range is $500 -- that's a magic number that a lot of folks can justify, even if it's more than they really want to spend.  Psychologically it's a LOT harder to get folks to spend more than that on something that isn't a core function (not the software itself -- I worked in the industry for many, many decades and I know this stuff backwards and forwards.  I used to get paid quite a lot of money for exactly this kind of analysis).  Perhaps $600 is the new $500, but any more and we are going into the "Well, forget about it" territory.

Let's see how willing RL is to show us long-time users they really care about us.  Part of the problem, I'm sure, is they don't have a lot of wiggle room after paying the license to the FW folks.  If THAT takes up the majority of the price, we are unlikely to see heavy discounts at all.  If you get in bed with the devil, you need to pay the piper (or some such thing).
By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
High res videos are NOT needed for facial mocap.
A simple Standard Definition camcorder.. 10 feet away will provide very accurate results.

FW takes it to a new level with ease of use.
...can't see how some think it'd be sold for $600 to $800.
By TonyDPrime - 4 Years Ago
More philosophizing, rhetoric, and sophistry - 
looking at Faceware's own existing product line.  There is an emphasis on 'Support' costing more.  You pay more for support.

Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?  Is it on a solutions-specific basis, outside of the scope of normal use type-thing, like consulting?  Or, is it paying, like insurance or a warranty plan on a product, if the product fails?  Like, is the product so riddled with obstacles, issues, and faults that the average user is expected to expect they occur, and thus you get the optimized experience if you have support?  

If the cost is a premium cost, is that 'support' one of the justifications for the premium price.  
2 considerations then- Why are you paying more, ie a premium, for a product that is broken, incomplete, has bugs, requires support, etc...., or for consulting that you will not have direct access to.

Now, one can argue - It's a business, nothing is free, I worked for x-years and you don't know what it all entails, it's the best there is, see if you can do better on your own!  
This is a logical premise, having > have not .  And by that logic anything can theoretically cost anything, and be justified.  

So then worth looking at is the timeline, or track record of other similar plugins:
-Perception Neuron, Indigo Renderer - are all issues addressed in advance of updates, or are they only dealt with when a user finds one and lists it in Feedback Tracker and it gets enough votes..  Are there any outstanding issues with either of these plugins, or have they been brought up to their full working optimized potential at current.  Is the attention to making the customer's experience with the product 'premium'.  
Is your $ worthy of a premium experience, or not?
 
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Sorry, but you don't know a thing you are talking about (and I refuse to respond to you on these forums anymore -- if there was a block button I'd use it).
By duchess110 - 4 Years Ago
I have just been watching a gopro faceware video on Youtube and the guy used 1280x720 settings
edit - and 60fps
this is the video that I got the info from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNK9ORbc9Hs&list=PLPa47iSnj6x4zE9zlXIaxVupSyQfX-pzt&index=6
By Peter (RL) - 4 Years Ago
Rampa (8/9/2017)
I downloaded the FW demo a couple months ago. To use a pre-recorded video, I found a virtual webcam application. There are actually quite a few if you google it.


Rampa is right, there are other options available if you want to use video.

Although you can't load a video file directly (MP4, AVI, WMV etc.), you can even cheat by pointing your camera towards a video playing back and grab mocap from that.
By illusionLAB - 4 Years Ago
Looks like it... I imagine there will be a "calibrate face" you need to record at the start of all clips, like the T pose we do for body mocap.
  • Live Face Capture and Imported Image Sequence
    • Use PC cam, GoPro or ProHD cameras to capture face motion
    • Record actors remotely via video camera and use for the face mocap source
By animagic - 4 Years Ago
There was a combination of facial Mocap with CrazyTalk some years ago (it was never marketed in the US), but I don't know if that was their own or whether they used a third party product.

I think Mocap is pretty specialized and RL is not a huge company, so at the moment it's wise for them to look for external solutions.

Anyway, it's good to hear that they are doing so well at SIGGRAPH!
By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
Yes, I hope so as well, Ani.  I do enjoy all the dialog here, and as you say, most are understanding and reasonable.

But I also see a vast divide here -- it's one thing to pay for the Neuron Mocap suit, when no one had their hopes up for a cheap hardware solution.  It's quite another for this, that uses your own webcam and is JUST software -- and without even a heads up there are likely to be a lot of folks feeling used by RL.  But I really want to hold off making any kind of judgement until we see that early bird price.  Perhaps even *I* will be surprised (although I kind of doubt it).
By kungphu - 4 Years Ago
That vid was just WOW!!!
By stuckon3d - 4 Years Ago
Hi guys,
  I have been using the FW rt for iclone plugin for a while now, and i have been demonstrating its power at siggraph all three days at the show floor as well. The quality of this product is fantastic. Even with the horrible lighting conditions at the show, it still performed like a champ. I have tried many face capture solutions before and they all failed because of my goatee. They could not figure out where my lips start and end. With FW rt for iclone I did not have that issue as long as i had my face evenly lit. Even when i rotated my head away on purpose to lose the tracking, it would lock on right back after i looked at the camera straight on. And before you ask, yes you can rotate and record your head rotation, but not so far out that your nose occludes one of your eyes, as soon as that happens it will lose tracking which is reasonable. 
  The capture quality is really fantastic, very little clean up is necessary. It all depends what kind of perfectionist you are.  Wink  As far as hardware, any webcam will do, however the higher the fps you can get out of your camera the better the capture. Resolution is not as important as FPS. 60 to 90 fps is preferred for best lip-sync capture. Of course you can prerecord video and bring it in as a sequence of images as well. Just make sure the face is centered in the video and it is evenly lit with soft lighting. You don't want hard shadows on your face. I will ask RL if I can post some videos of the raw capture so that you can see the quality of this product, it really is worth it and the price is unbeatable considering the quality. There is nothing out there at this price point/quality. Hope this helps. 

Cheers,

Stuckon3d
  
By but0fc0ursee - 4 Years Ago
Kellytoons,
I'd be excited to just click a button and have unlimited hair styles. Poly strips.
It will definitely catch on.... Adobe or Autodesk.
...no vaporware here.
By Rampa - 4 Years Ago
I downloaded the FW demo a couple months ago. To use a pre-recorded video, I found a virtual webcam application. There are actually quite a few if you google it.
By Joe (RL) - 4 Years Ago
Good News! The iClone 7 Facial Mocap Plugin - Faceware RT is finally available in September. 

Partnership between Reallusion and Faceware Technologies Inc
Reallsuion is connecting with the industry-leading motion capture providers to iClone 7 delivering a face mocap solution that is quick, adaptable to existing pipeline and works with specialty pro helmets.

Faceware Live & Faceware RT
Faceware Live is the real time facial motion capture software which is developed by Faceware Technologies Inc, it is used for tracking performer's face and instantly applying that performance to a custom character. 
  • Faceware Live - local ($2,745)
  • Faceware Live - server ($4,125)
Faceware RT for iClone 7 is a totally independent face mocap tool that uses a PC Cam and iClone 7 to achieve real-time facial motion capture recording. 
Notwithstanding, Reallusion will provide special discount to its member exclusively:
  • 3-in-1 Bundle: Faceware RT + iClone Facial Mocap Plugin + iClone7 Pipeline  (Regular price $1,500)
  • 2-in-1 Bundle: Faceware RT + iClone Facial Mocap Plugin (Regular price $1,190)

iClone 7 Faceware RT

Actually, there is many functions could be find in iClone Faceware RT, and below is some of the key features:
  • Compatible with Standard 3D Characters
  • Custom Character Import 
  • Two Face Simultaneous Capture
  • Features-based Capture and Imported Image Sequence.
  • Face Mask for Selected Capture 
  • Optional Mocap Mouth Blend with Audio Lip-sync Viseme
  • Refinement & Face Key Timeline Editing 
  • Export Character Morph Animation via FBX
The iClone Facial Mocap Plugin will be launched in September, please stay tune with Reallusion for the introductory special offer to RL members.

For more detail, please refer to the blog link: https://blog.reallusion.com/2017/07/31/real-time-face-and-body-mocap-for-iclone-7-at-siggraph-2017/


By VirtualMedia - 4 Years Ago
Will this be a one time purchase with options for future upgrades? Or will their be an annual licensing fee for continual use?

Thanks for the encouraging words Peter the current listed price would put this in the no-way category.
By animagic - 4 Years Ago
I guess to do facial Mocap right is in the same line as regular Mocap for which RL choose Perception Neuron. The "cheap" solution of regular Mocap with Kinect never panned out. FW will be an investment for sure; I don't make any money with my movies either...Crying
By kungphu - 4 Years Ago
Well... it looks like the price will be kinda high for this one. TBH, It does stink that it'll be expensive, but I do see the price point given FWs pricing on its website. This is premium software not some stop gap. The price reflects that sadly.

I'll defend the "troll" a bit that chimed in earlier. I don't think he was laughing at the situation of others (or a troll), but stating that a payment plan type thing would be quite a stretch as a feasible option for the software. Could it be done? Absolutely... but aside from subscription services, I don't know of any payment plan for professional software. Half now and half later seems like a loan at a bank may suffice if that is the case. And to have to do that for a hobby seems like a less than ideal situation. I don't believe anyone is laughing at the devaluation of currency abroad or anyone's financial status. That's no laughing matter. Quite the opposite actually.

It's the great dilemma; hobbyist software or professional software? Reallusion could have come up with a cheap solution (and perhaps they will later). But you get what you pay for. A cheap solution would produce cheaper results. Perhaps we'd be happy with that? I personally wouldn't. I'd probably be using the animation tools instead to get better results. With open scripting maybe someone comes up with a cheaper solution later down the road?

Reallsion is at an interesting crossroads, it's been a low cost hobbyist, previz software. Now more and more pro aspects are being incorporated and we applaud them. With those new features come slower renders, higher costs and more powerful gpu requirements. They are really pushing boundaries with what they're doing. I do hope they are able to keep the core user base intact. I don't personally think and certainly do hope this doesn't divide the community. Like Ani mentioned above, most people here on the forum are pretty level headed. I think we can all respectfully discuss and even help one another out. Perhaps I'm just too much of an optimist Smile I hope not!
By dr.zap - 4 Years Ago
TonyDPrime (8/7/2017)

Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?  Is it on a solutions-specific basis, outside of the scope of normal use type-thing, like consulting?  Or, is it paying, like insurance or a warranty plan on a product, if the product fails?  Like, is the product so riddled with obstacles, issues, and faults that the average user is expected to expect they occur, and thus you get the optimized experience if you have support?  
 


Since you seem to be unaware of how professionals work, I will explain things as simply as I can.  I am not in the 3d/FX business, but most collaborative business works this way:
Faceware is not intended to be a stand alone product.  It is designed to be used in a production pipeline consisting of many different products.  Since technology is always evolving (some product updates are monthly), there is a constant need to adjust your product to a needed pipeline.  There will always be bugs in this process.  In addition, the film industry (and more and more, the gaming industry) are on the cutting edge of technology.  It is their needs and ideas that drive products like Faceware to get better and better.  For example, maybe a company like Disney has developed some software in-house and they want Faceware to connect with it (just an example).  Faceware has a support team that can deal with that because that means lucrative business for them.  Of course they are also on call for indie studios and hobbyists who are having problems making the software do what they want.  Anyhow, I don't know why you ask this question.  Every decent company has support.  I have customer support for my low-tech refrigerator.  It certainly isn't any indication of how faulty a product may be.
By stuckon3d - 4 Years Ago
argus1000 (8/7/2017)
stuckon3d (8/7/2017)
Hi Resolution is not as important as FPS. 60 to 90 fps is preferred for best lip-sync capture


I just bought the Logitech C922x. It's the only webcam that operates at 60fps that I know of. Thanks, stuckon3d.



Cool! That cam will serve you well.  btw, the BRIO webcam can do 60 fps at 1080p and 90 fps at 720p (i tested it and the software does support them) . However it is a bit more expensive and you need a machine that can keep up the frame rate. 

Cheers!

PS: do not rely on "rightlight" Logitec feature,  it sucks up the frame rate by half, make sure to turn that feature off, and just put better lighting on you instead. LED Selfie lights work great, it gives you nice diffuse lighting and they are very inexpensive.  Wink

PPS: @ kelleytoons, 60 fps is not the minimum for lipsync, 30 will work, just not as crisp as 60, 90, or 120. Of course.  Wink
By stuckon3d - 4 Years Ago
TonyDPrime (8/8/2017)
but0fc0ursee (8/8/2017)
Faceware mocap plugin for iClone doesn't accept video.... image sequences.


Peter(RL) / Stuckon3D,
My question is in fact addressing a "video stream" (which Stuckon3D was using), or "a file", which can in fact of course be an "image file" (jpg, png, tga, bitmap, etc...) as part of an image sequence, and not necessarily a "video" (mp4, mov, wmv, etc...).  
Now, let's say the image file is 256x256, is this okay?  or does it need to be 1280x720, or minimum resolution, or aspect ratio for that matter?
Is there any specific minimum spec that has been identified yet.

As but0fc0ursee semantically interpreted "file" to mean "video", perhaps in fact there may be other semantic interpretation or misinterpretation.  So what exactly does the following mean, as it relates to the plugin reading live video, elements of pre-recorded files....THX!
"Features-based Capture and Imported Image Sequence"



640 x 400 worked ok, specially if your face is close to the camera, however if you are farther away , higher res will work better.  From the testing I've done so far, 720p is a good sweet spot to be in. You get pretty good res for shape details and fps. 

Cheers,

Stuckon3d. 
By freerange - 4 Years Ago
Haha, that is hilarious. Now you are going to have a bunch of folks pointing their webcams at their TVs and iPads for face capture. That is awesome