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By Peter (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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 Hi Everyone!! We are really excited to let you know you that Reallusion will once again be at SIGGRAPH this year, and we invite you to visit our Booth (# 1219) on August 1st - 3rd, at the Los Angeles Convention Center. This year we will have lots of cool stuff to share with all of you including:
1. iClone 7 - See the amazing new features showcased live.
2. Facial & Full Body Mocap using FACEWARE and XSENS  
So mark your calendars and come visit Reallusion in Los Angeles!
This year you can enter the exhibition with our VIP code: RLICLONE VIP code is for complimentary Exhibits Only Passes!
We hope to see you there! 
Note: There is some updates regarding Faceware, please visit HERE for more details.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Wish I could be there (when I worked in the industry it was one of the highlights of the year -- particularly the after hours parties :> .
Sadly, those days are long past. Have a good time, though (really excited to see the Faceware stuff -- perhaps there will be some videos posted here).
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By mtakerkart - 7 Years Ago
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XSENS ?????
Isn't it in the same buisness like Noitom ?? 
Should we expect an announcement ??? Can't wait to see that!!
By the way , if you can show some particles work in progress... 
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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Will definitely be there and hanging out with the RL folks as much as I can. John and Jimmy better be taking good care of my Xsens suit, haha.
Xsens is similar to the PN suit, but their software and reliability are leagues better. They have REALLY good magnetic interference correction so I can get out of my chair run out of my house and down the street and come back and sit in the chair and hit the mark. PN you are recalibrating pretty much every take and even then it has drift issues. Xsens is the go to suits, I use the fully wireless Awinda suits, for intertial capture for film and TV. We tested a TON of mocap systems and settled on Xsens. That said Xsens is in a whole different ballgame when it comes to cost. You are more in the ballpark of low cost optical capture than low cost intertial suits. Most of the cost is the software license. Xsens is also better support in various software since it is used so much so you have a lot of solution options depending on your needs. If you are using Xsens you are doing professional work so the suit pays for itself over time and you are not fighting with it on set which is embarrasing. It is dead reliable. Xsens is body only and does not do fingers or palms only hand position.
For most users PN is great bang for buck and all it's quirks and foibles are made up in low low cost. Plus it includes hands which actually work as well as some $20K glove systems I have tested.
The good news is you now have choice and that shows a possible willingness to open up to more capture solutions in the future including other low cost ones and more professional ones.
It also shows that Reallusion is going to have a sweet demo with face and body capture using professional tools that will hopefully capture the attention of those who would normally not give iClone a second look.
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By mtakerkart - 7 Years Ago
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Xsens is similar to the PN suit, but their software and reliability are leagues better
I really really hope that 13 000$ for one suit give good result. I'm just curious if Reallusion planned to make a Xsense plugin....
You are more in the ballpark of low cost optical capture than low cost intertial suits
Maybe , but you need empty space to not blind camera. Neuron can be used outside , everywhere in a simple manner.
I'm just little bit nervous about the Reallusion direction with Xsense price range. I hope I have not to do a paralell with faceware price range...
As an Indy producer I can pay the same price as a Neuron suit .
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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The plugins don't raise the price of iClone. They are a separate purchase. With scripting support adding 3rd party integration is much easier.
So as an indie developer you have the choice to select the solutions that fit you budget and needs. No one who does not have revenue to cover the cost would pick an Xsens as MVN Pro license is $20k on top of the suit cost. But if you are on set with a crew and they are standing around waiting for you to troubleshoot a neuron suit that is acting up or having to recalibrate constantly taking the actor out of the moment you are more than burned through the gear costs and they will think twice before hiring you again. If you show up, suit up and calibrate talent in less than 15 min and every take looks great and clean without recalibration breaks then they will pay you enough that the suit pays for itself.
Bonus if you are doing body and face and it works reliably.
I like Perception Neuron, we have 3 to cover spare bits. But using an Xsens suit is a whole different experience, we also have 3 Awinda suits. PN were for testing and Xsens are the production suits.
The short of it is if Xsens and Faceware are not in budget then don't buy those solutions as you have options including just hand animating and saving on buying anything extra.
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By mtakerkart - 7 Years Ago
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Faceware are not in budget then don't buy those solutions
Seriously???? I waited and support Reallusion 4 years for that. That's clearly the last thing I want to read and hear. I really want you're wrong with Faceware.
I saw on their site that a one UDK seat is 1500$. I can deal with that. I don't know who you are but I think you know some informations that we want to know....
I hpe too that we'll have more info about pricing at the Siggraph Demo.
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By mtakerkart - 7 Years Ago
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But if you are on set with a crew and they are standing around waiting for you to troubleshoot a neuron suit that is acting up or having to recalibrate constantly taking the actor out of the moment you are more than burned through the gear costs and they will think twice before hiring you again
And you don't use Iclone for this tasks. Because for now, Iclone have to be improved in the broadcast field. Using Indie tools in big productions is murderer for your reputation.
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By dwacon - 7 Years Ago
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I clicked the link in the email for a FREE ticket. I landed here, but don't see how to get the ticket.
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By dr.zap - 7 Years Ago
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I'm going all in with iKinema's Orion and HTC Vive. I loved what I saw with the demos and it looks like it's possible to do hand mocap as well (you can add extra sensors). iKinema says they will offer ways for iClone can access the data in the future which is encouraging but I can use the fbx data the software provides now. At $450 or so + the cost of the Vive, this quality is really a bargain. The only thing I dislike is being confined to a 13 x 13' space.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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mtakerkart (7/22/2017)
Faceware are not in budget then don't buy those solutions
Seriously???? I waited and support Reallusion 4 years for that. That's clearly the last thing I want to read and hear. I really want you're wrong with Faceware.
I saw on their site that a one UDK seat is 1500$. I can deal with that. I don't know who you are but I think you know some informations that we want to know....
I hpe too that we'll have more info about pricing at the Siggraph Demo.
Let's not get our panties in a bunch just yet -- if RL thinks that they will sell even more than a handful of Facial mocap plugins at a cost of more than twice what iClone costs they are delusional. Yes, folks like Freerange will buy, and PERHAPS some other larger shops, but those are a pittance compared to the thousands of iClone users RL caters to.
Freerange represents a VERY distorted picture -- iClone is aimed directly at hobbyists and while they don't mind also offering some abilities for higher end folks to use it the market isn't there for them. That market is VERY niche -- the higher end studios will ALWAYS use their own software, the hobbyists can't afford $$$, and the very few in between couldn't possibly justify the development costs RL is putting in to this. Remember that all other products, like Maya and Max, have gone to subscription models on their $$$ core software just to make ends meet (and are failing in that regard -- I have many friends still at Autodesk that tell me they are having problems).
As long as the face capture stuff remains firmly inside of iClone (with no ability to export) I think RL can keep the prices reasonable for ALL of us. They won't be shooting themselves in the foot (but if they do I'll eat my words and end my relationship with them, as will MANY others).
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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I have no info on pricing whatsoever outside of pricing listed on faceware's website.
I am hopeful they will have deals with the release so even hobbyist can try it out. I think we will find out at SIGGRAPH.
mtakerkart (7/22/2017)
Faceware are not in budget then don't buy those solutions
Seriously???? I waited and support Reallusion 4 years for that. That's clearly the last thing I want to read and hear. I really want you're wrong with Faceware.
I saw on their site that a one UDK seat is 1500$. I can deal with that. I don't know who you are but I think you know some informations that we want to know....
I hpe too that we'll have more info about pricing at the Siggraph Demo.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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That is why I think Reallusion needs to cater to professionals while keeping ease of workflow for indie and hobbyist users. We proved it can work in a professional pipeline, in fact it worked better than some pro tools, there are still rough edges but they are on the right path too have a turn-key solution for virtual production a market Autodesk gave away. If studios had the choice of having a turn-key solution or having to custom build on top of Unity and Unreal they would choose the turn-key solution.
SIGGRAPH will show to their market they have professional chops.
mtakerkart (7/22/2017)
But if you are on set with a crew and they are standing around waiting for you to troubleshoot a neuron suit that is acting up or having to recalibrate constantly taking the actor out of the moment you are more than burned through the gear costs and they will think twice before hiring you again
And you don't use Iclone for this tasks. Because for now, Iclone have to be improved in the broadcast field. Using Indie tools in big productions is murderer for your reputation.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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Good choice, Ikinema is a fantastic solver. I introduced Reallusion and Ikinema so I am hopefully for further integrations between the two companies. I would absolutely love to have the LiveAction solver running in iClone. That would also open up iClone to more optical capture solutions.
For a single character setup you would be surprised what you can achieve in a small capture space. I have not seen Orion in person so I would love to see how you get on with it once you get it setup.
We did some IKinema WebAnimate tests and they went well coming to iClone. Perception Neuron users would do well to push for integration with Ikinema as it would help solve some suit issues.
dr.zap (7/22/2017)
I'm going all in with iKinema's Orion and HTC Vive. I loved what I saw with the demos and it looks like it's possible to do hand mocap as well (you can add extra sensors). iKinema says they will offer ways for iClone can access the data in the future which is encouraging but I can use the fbx data the software provides now. At $450 or so + the cost of the Vive, this quality is really a bargain. The only thing I dislike is being confined to a 13 x 13' space.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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Let us not forget integrations in no way change the price of iClone. They are a separate purchase so they do not affect iClone's current hobbyist market. It is simply a matter of if you can't justify the price of Faceware then don't buy it, but if you can you now have the chance you use it with direct integration. Same goes for Xsens, you have the choice of Perception Neuron and if that is still too expensive you can now actually do keyframe animation with the curve editor that won't make you pull your hair out. All will give you great results and it opens iClone to a wider market. Higher end studios use plenty of off the shelf software. Higher end studios also use niche products if they fit a need and fit into their pipeline as well.
I think people are missing the fact that the development costs are dramatically less with python and QT support added. The SDK's are already there for easy integration into studio pipelines so development for adding Faceware or Xsens or anything else they want to add is now dramatically easier. Users can now easily add their own integrations if they having the coding chops. The development cost for Reallusion is adding scripting support and a graph editor but that benefits everyone and opens iClone up significantly for further integrations and customization.
Faceware is not THAT expensive that even small shops wouldn't pick it up. One job more than covers the cost of the software. It is the hardware were things get more expensive but the hardware is completely optional, as an RGB capture tool it works with any video source and a cheapo Logitech webcam works great with it. Most people don't need the hardware bundle even if they want a helmet setup as you can achieve pretty much the same results with a bike helmet and GoPro or Yi Camera especially if you can skip on of the most expensive bits of that kit which is the digital video recorder.
Reallusion could have worked out special pricing for users which would be great, but even if they didn't it isn't like they are forcing it on their users, it is a choice. I already own Live and Analyzer so I am just happy to have the integration.
Reallusion couldn't block export. Faceware is just driving blendshape animation so no different if you use the puppeting tools or keyframe it. Maybe they have a special paired down version which I could see bringing down the cost. I have no clue. I only tested with full Faceware Live.
Once again, you have bought iClone 7 these do not affect it's price in any way, these are separate purchases, they are in not in any way forced on you. They open up iClone to the most popular inertial capture suit used by professionals and the most popular facial capture software used by professionals and a setup that is significantly nicer to use than other professional software solutions. Not sure why people are getting up in arms about this since it in now way affected their purchase of iClone.
I would think users would be thrilled that iClone could gain traction on higher budget projects and the benefits of that would carry over to their core base. iClone has had integrations in professional tools for a while. Easy Maya/MotionBuilder HIK rig round tripping, Max Biped, CC export to Zbrush or other sculpting software.
So no Reallusion is not delusional which is why they are not cramming it down your throat and they didn't develop it themselves so cost to them is low. They would be delusional if they stagnate their product and didn't try and expand their user base. At least that is my distorted view of things.
Personally I applaud what they are doing. When you see them do a demo that equals the quality of $250K+ capture setups for a tiny fraction of that cost that will catch the attention of game devs, previs studios, production studios. And it did not cost you a dime, because you didn't have to buy it to still enjoy using iClone. Hows that for win win.
Kelleytoons (7/22/2017)
mtakerkart (7/22/2017)
Faceware are not in budget then don't buy those solutions
Seriously???? I waited and support Reallusion 4 years for that. That's clearly the last thing I want to read and hear. I really want you're wrong with Faceware.
I saw on their site that a one UDK seat is 1500$. I can deal with that. I don't know who you are but I think you know some informations that we want to know....
I hpe too that we'll have more info about pricing at the Siggraph Demo. Let's not get our panties in a bunch just yet -- if RL thinks that they will sell even more than a handful of Facial mocap plugins at a cost of more than twice what iClone costs they are delusional. Yes, folks like Freerange will buy, and PERHAPS some other larger shops, but those are a pittance compared to the thousands of iClone users RL caters to. Freerange represents a VERY distorted picture -- iClone is aimed directly at hobbyists and while they don't mind also offering some abilities for higher end folks to use it the market isn't there for them. That market is VERY niche -- the higher end studios will ALWAYS use their own software, the hobbyists can't afford $$$, and the very few in between couldn't possibly justify the development costs RL is putting in to this. Remember that all other products, like Maya and Max, have gone to subscription models on their $$$ core software just to make ends meet (and are failing in that regard -- I have many friends still at Autodesk that tell me they are having problems). As long as the face capture stuff remains firmly inside of iClone (with no ability to export) I think RL can keep the prices reasonable for ALL of us. They won't be shooting themselves in the foot (but if they do I'll eat my words and end my relationship with them, as will MANY others).
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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Except you miss the basic point, Range -- Facial Mocap was at the top of MANY of our lists here, and RL listens to its users. Perhaps you haven't been on the forum long enough to know, but they wouldn't take an idea we (and by "we" I mean the majority of hobbyists here whom RL makes a living from) and come up with a solution that wouldn't work for us.
So I totally reject your argument that facial mocap is okay if it's $$$ -- and for one thing, there are FAR cheaper, proven solutions out there that RL could have chosen to go with. The fact they went with FW tells me they have worked something out to make it affordable to all of us. Because it would be the biggest slap in the face to our requests if that were not true.
The direct analogy would be if the curve editor they have promised all of us was some expensive plug-in that only indie producers could afford, and they took the attitude of "well, you don't HAVE to buy it." We already know that's not true, that it will come in very reasonably priced (IIRC $150) and "free" to those of us who bought XChange Pipeline. So they listen to us, they respond, and do not insult us with things we can't possibly justify.
Time will tell -- I do NOT think pricing will be announced at Siggraph -- again, that would be contrary to how RL has treated us. (They might make a simultaneous announcement, perhaps). As I said, if I'm wrong I will be the first to admit it (and the first -- of MANY -- to jump ship).
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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User requests have indeed been a driver for a lot of the new features in iClone. As I have said elsewhere, user requests are encouraged and appreciated. RL has proven to be a company that listens. Things may not always be there the same day, as they take time to develop, but if it fits within the overall development plan, it will be there eventually.
The curve editor is a case in point, as it was at first dismissed as being to complicated for the target users, according to a RL Facebook post, but I think that the continued push for it from the users did have an effect on a positive decision.
Facial Mocap is another one that has been on the wish list for quite some time.
Even hobbyists and indie moviemakers want to produce quality and the tools to accomplish it with, and RL does it good job in making it affordable.
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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In addition, what would happen if you wore the Perception Neuron strap-on kit PLUS an XSens suit...at the same time...while recording with the XBOX One mocap plugin...
Can iClone 7 handle this?
I hope this is both explored and covered at SIIGRAPH, in detail, with multiple examples.
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (7/23/2017)
In addition, what would happen if you wore the Perception Neuron strap-on kit PLUS an XSens suit...at the same time...while recording with the XBOX One mocap plugin....
Um... the world would end? (I dunno, just guessing :>.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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Completely agree they do listen, and like I mentioned I have no clue what pricing will be I am just going off what Faceware lists as pricing. They may or may not have worked a deal, won't know till pricing is officially announced. I was just saying pricing is relative to value. RL chose Faceware for a reason, maybe user requests, maybe a company that was willing to work with them, SDK, development costs, choosing the most popular solution, whatever.
With the python and QT support coming, pretty much any solution could be added from open source to uber expensive Vicon kits. Faceware and Xsens could be the tip of the iceberg.
I would definitely be interested in what other facial performance solutions you like that are proven and cheaper than Faceware because Faceware is FAR from the most expensive. I have tried Brekel Pro Face and Hoa Li's Faceshift before Apple bought it, most the other ones I have used are actually more expensive than Faceware. I have also used developer kit versions but they need a ton of coding to actually be a real facial performance solution. Some needed a depth camera like an Intel Realsense camera. Faceware is about the same price as a 32 neuron suit and the RL neuron duo plugin ($2500) so it isn't like the pricing is super crazy since Live Studio is $2500, do you feel the PN integration was a slap in the face to iClone users? Cheapest you are getting into the PN setup is the 18 neuron kit and RL neuron solo plugin at $1500. Maybe the have a custom version of Faceware or a special Live Studio deal that is closer to that. Who knows.
Not trying to be contrarian I am just saying I am excited iClone is opening up in this way and I think even pro integrations will benefit hobby users in the long run as projects done in iClone are a big reflection on the software. We were not the only studio or professionals using iClone on professional work so I am sure other professionals won't mind seeing professional solutions coming to iClone.
Kelleytoons (7/23/2017)
Except you miss the basic point, Range -- Facial Mocap was at the top of MANY of our lists here, and RL listens to its users. Perhaps you haven't been on the forum long enough to know, but they wouldn't take an idea we (and by "we" I mean the majority of hobbyists here whom RL makes a living from) and come up with a solution that wouldn't work for us.
So I totally reject your argument that facial mocap is okay if it's $$$ -- and for one thing, there are FAR cheaper, proven solutions out there that RL could have chosen to go with. The fact they went with FW tells me they have worked something out to make it affordable to all of us. Because it would be the biggest slap in the face to our requests if that were not true.
The direct analogy would be if the curve editor they have promised all of us was some expensive plug-in that only indie producers could afford, and they took the attitude of "well, you don't HAVE to buy it." We already know that's not true, that it will come in very reasonably priced (IIRC $150) and "free" to those of us who bought XChange Pipeline. So they listen to us, they respond, and do not insult us with things we can't possibly justify.
Time will tell -- I do NOT think pricing will be announced at Siggraph -- again, that would be contrary to how RL has treated us. (They might make a simultaneous announcement, perhaps). As I said, if I'm wrong I will be the first to admit it (and the first -- of MANY -- to jump ship).
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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TonyDPrime (7/23/2017)
In addition, what would happen if you wore the Perception Neuron strap-on kit PLUS an XSens suit...at the same time...while recording with the XBOX One mocap plugin...
Why would you even consider Xbox One Mocap if you have Perception Neuron? I don't see a use case for that.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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Yeah that is definitely an end times solution right there, haha
Kelleytoons (7/23/2017)
TonyDPrime (7/23/2017)
In addition, what would happen if you wore the Perception Neuron strap-on kit PLUS an XSens suit...at the same time...while recording with the XBOX One mocap plugin....Um... the world would end? (I dunno, just guessing :> .
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By TonyDPrime - 7 Years Ago
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Peter(RL) - I think it is amazing that Reallusion continues to broaden the creative horizons for iClone! I hope both of your mentioned Xsens and Faceware tool displays are a huge success for your teams.
I don't believe that anything is beyond the potential of this software. Most noteworthy, I continue to see that Reallusion takes great pride in its product offerings.
I know iClone is in great hands and have no doubts that it is quite capable of radical things!
Thanks for the invite to the community!
-Tony D.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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Completely agree and sorry if my posts came off as argumentative, was not trying to be. There is a great niche that Reallusion hopefully can dominate that is at the intersection of virtual set/previs, game dev, and indie filmmaking. Their software is incredible bang for buck and now that they are ticking off some much needed basic features like pipeline support and an actual curve editor a lot of the limitations are melting away. The team has been some of the best folks to work with. Really excited to see what the users start putting out after 7.1 comes out and they can really refine their animations.
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By Ola(RL) - 7 Years Ago
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dwacon (7/22/2017)
I clicked the link in the email for a FREE ticket. I landed here, but don't see how to get the ticket.
Hi dwacon
We are so glad that you are interested in joining us in Siggraph.
Please visit both #1219 and say hi.
As to your question about tickets.
You DO NOT need one.
VIP code is something new this year.
According to Siggraph website, they said: "Invite Your Customers and Guests!!!!! This year you will be able to create your own VIP code for complimentary Exhibits Only Passes!"
You can enter the EXHIBITION by providing this VIP code: RLICLONE at the registration counter.
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By Joe (RL) - 7 Years Ago
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Please note we have new information updated regarding the Faceware, please check HERE for more detail!
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