Just Wondering


https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic333625.aspx
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By william.carey30 - 3 Years Ago
   At this point, iClone 6 & 7 are basically just going to sit on my computer as curios to mess around with occasionally, while I continue to use iClone 5 as my main program.  Am I the only one, or would other people have vastly preferred an updated version of iClone 5 with improved physics and resolution, but retaining the avatar compatibility and head creation from photos, to what ended up being released as iClone 6 & 7?
By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
Nice work Jaffa Smile

<Can't imagine why anyone would settle for less.>

I can Kelly. You got to have some qualifications to do certain things. Let aside floor dance, even simplest gestures or movements we see easily performed by professional actors require certain skills.
Now in addition to animation I got to learn how to act, or dance, or become a stuntman?

The heck, I spent 2 hours the other day trying to make a smooth transition between 2 clips.
We the armatures have to sit and wait for someone with great deal of experience to come up with a workaround for us? I just hate the word "workaround". Really!
Not a fine morning for me I suppose... need some coffee.

But I still love IC7 - no going back - not even for the "photoing" faces of the relatives Smile
By thebiz.movies - 3 Years Ago
Hi mtakerkart,
The mocap I've seen from the Noitom suits look great to me but its an expensive alternative.  I seem to remember Jason Brown (I think that was his name) doing some pretty good work with the Kinect but really having to put a lot of work into smoothing and editing the results.  Im not interested in having to do excessive post work to make mocap an option.  Also please note that the dissatisfaction of the kinect results was often noted by the kinect users themselves.  So in regard to my expectations, I would expect to hear Kinect users being satisfied, which I did not (and hence my question to Kellytoon).  Otherwise, the results I expect should be like the motions that RL sells on the content store.

Are you also mocapping with a Kinect mtakerkart?  And are you satisfied with the results?  Perhaps my perception is wrong...
By raxel_67 - 3 Years Ago
I wouldn't even go back to iclone 6 now, let alone 5
By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
Well, yes, that's true.  If your movie requires folks to kick someone in the chin, it's unlikely that most of us could mocap that ourselves (heck, at my age if my movie required someone to kick someone in the KNEE I don't know I could manage it).

But I don't think that's the majority of custom motions needed.  The truly athletic stuff, like dancing and fighting, is readily available for purchase.  I thought the guy I was responding to was talking about custom motions that you could not buy.  Things like your characters making a speech and needing the right motions to go along with it.  Or, heck, any sort of custom movement that's just too time consuming to make manually.

Just this weekend I was putting together a test animation with two anchor folks talking to each other.  I have all KINDS of animations I've bought, and I own MixMoves communication and while I certainly could have used those tools it was just far easier to spend five minutes mocap myself performing both roles.  It was a 60 second spot, and I did a couple of takes, so five minutes max (my setup is always on and it takes only a minute to get it ready to use).  The processing time for the clips was about another five minutes but during that time I did other things.  But, even so, in less than 15 minutes I had custom animation for two characters for a 60 second spot, which is a lot less time than it would have taken for me to get it right with the animation tools.

I think you decide what your needs are and then get the tools to do what you want.  Just like with facial mocap (which I so DESPERATELY desire) I don't think you need to be Meryl Streep in order to get a good performance for what you want, and with most body mocap you don't have to be all that good to get it right.  But if you prefer to do it manually that's up to you -- I was just telling that guy he shouldn't settle, and I don't think anyone should.
By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
thebiz.movies (7/13/2017)
Kellytoons,
Are you mocaping with a Kinect?  Could you possibly share the results?  You might be the first IC user to say that the Kinect gives adequate results.  I watched many of the Mocap Kinect videos and never saw anyone get good clean results that they were happy with.  I would love to have a Noitom suit but I would also love to have an extra 1500$ lying about.


I would strongly suggest you visit the iPisoft web site (google it and it's the first thing that comes up).  They have many examples there to show you what you can achieve.  I have two Kinects and actually bought their "basic" but nowadays I just use the one (so you only need the "Express" or whatever it's called).  It's like $99 for a year, but they always have three year discounts, so you can actually buy it for around $70 or so a year, which is a real steal.

I have three different Kinect mocap software, and the iPisoft is the only one that works well, and is easy to use.  (I have RL's plugin as well as Brekel and neither one is worth even a dollar).  The iPisoft, even with one Kinect, can do excellent captures with feet firmly planted and even arm exclusions (which others have problems with).  Their cleanup software is superb, taking all the jitter out (again, look at their examples on their site).  The two Kinect version is a bit better for fast turns, but it's such a PITA to calibrate and setup compared to the single Kinect one that I seldom use it.  (You calibrate the single one by simply taking a t-pose -- the multiple one requires more than one computer and a bit more effort, which I kind of hate).  The single Kinect version works fine as long as you don't turn quickly (and won't have any issues if you don't turn at all).

If you have a Kinect they offer a free demo which will answer all your questions and is well worth the time to check out.  Otherwise, if you are on the fence about buying a Kinect and want to see a specific motion, let me know and I'll do my best to perform and show you.  From standing start to having the motion in iClone it rarely takes more more than 20 minutes, even for complicated long form stuff (60 seconds or so).
By thebiz.movies - 3 Years Ago
The render continues to improve and my personal opinion is that the Character Creator is the biggest step forward for this software in possibly ever.  The ability for a non-modeler tech guy to create a character and set him up in multiple outfits easily is a boon.  Also have a feeling that the LUT in IC7 is something of an easy button for getting consistent moody vibes for your project.   The animation process is still difficult.  Hopefully the curve editor will be all some hope for.  If the motion side is "figured out" then the world is our oyster (the ability to create custom non-mocap animations seemingly is still in the land of the ultra professional).

No I don't yearn for the days of IC5/IC6
By but0fc0ursee - 3 Years Ago
illusionLAB (7/13/2017)
The "secret sauce" is Ikinema Webanimate... the ACP (advanced 'smoothing') feature is worth the price alone.  You also get easy retargeting, animation blending - ability to clean up sliding feet!  It's an amazing tool.

Great solution for users with no time or interests in learning how to do it themselves.
iClone WILL have the tools to do this. (one day).

It was initially released at 'yearly' fee, but I guess that didn't work for them...

Easy to see why users won't spend (Yearly) to do this.

so now you can buy the software outright for 99 pounds sterling.

As kellytoons said,
Kellytoons, ...decide what your needs are and then get the tools to do what you want.

By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
I think you'll be real happy with it -- the auto cleanup process they have is VERY good and you may not have to do anything (or very little) to get what you want.

Let us know how it goes (perhaps in another thread -- you could post some sample videos).
By animagic - 3 Years Ago
raxel_67 (7/12/2017)
I wouldn't even go back to iclone 6 now, let alone 5

Same here.

There was a lot of criticism when the head creation was moved to CrazyTalk 8 and rightly so, but with practice the results can be vastly better than with iClone 5. In addition, the facial expression capabilities in IC7 finally put life in the iClone faces (and hopefully facial Mocap will improve on that further).

Also, the visual improvements place iClone at another level.

There is a learning curve obviously with the rearranged user interface of IC6 and 7, but I think after you get used to it works fine. When using IC5, as I do sometimes, I now find myself searching for things...Unsure
By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
Believe it or not I own Perception Neuron Mocap, which I have not fully utilized yet. Sure, it is good for simple things.
But my problem was working with clips more complex, than conversation.
I watched all possible tutorials, tried whole lot of different workarounds, tricks and ended up with a lousy transition. 
Maybe with curve editor it would be a different ball game. Shall live to see.
By 4u2ges - 3 Years Ago
Thank you but0fc0ursee for the workaround and illusionLAB for the tip. Will look into it.
By raxel_67 - 3 Years Ago
GI is awesome, makes lighting so much easier and natural, and combined with glow maps with hdr you can mal some really awesome energy rays and bursts! Only downside is the vram and gpu usage but it is worth it. Which leads me to this: Fuck you RL now i want a new gpu!! Tongue
By illusionLAB - 3 Years Ago
The "secret sauce" is Ikinema Webanimate... the ACP (advanced 'smoothing') feature is worth the price alone.  You also get easy retargeting, animation blending - ability to clean up sliding feet!  It's an amazing tool.  It was initially released at 'yearly' fee, but I guess that didn't work for them so now you can buy the software outright for 99 pounds sterling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY9oPigVQRs

14 day free trial... 
https://www.ikinema.com/webanimate
By JaffaDave - 3 Years Ago
Hey KT,
I have 4 x PS3 USB Cameras at home and just had a look at ipisoft.... what a great bit of software! Thanks for the link, I'm going to purchase and see how I go as i have over 500 motions I need to record so im hoping to get what i need from this, don't mind cleanup work as long as i get the majority of the moves recorded. Smile
By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
raxel_67 (7/12/2017)
I wouldn't even go back to iclone 6 now, let alone 5


Many, many dittos -- can't even imagine using 6 anymore (and it's no longer on any of my machines).

GI to me is worth the price of admission -- SO many wonderful things can be done with it (it's amazing how crazy important lighting is, and I just can't understand anyone who wouldn't want to use the improvements 7 has in this regard).
By but0fc0ursee - 3 Years Ago

4u2ges (7/13/2017)
Believe it or not I own Perception Neuron Mocap, which I have not fully utilized yet. Sure, it is good for simple things.
But my problem was working with clips more complex, than conversation.
I watched all possible tutorials, tried whole lot of different workarounds, tricks and ended up with a lousy transition. 
Maybe with curve editor it would be a different ball game. Shall live to see.

Instead of looking for workarounds  and tricks.... do you know how to get great transitions (using a Curve Editor)?
"A Curve Editor will not fix mocap transition problems."
(Where the feet and root pivots are not the same.)


Here is the same problem....
As iClone users gain tool experience.... there needs change.
I spent 2 hours the other day trying to make a smooth transition between 2 clips.
We the armatures have to sit and wait for someone with great deal of experience to come up with a workaround for us? I just hate the word "workaround". Really!
Not a fine morning for me I suppose... need some coffee.

Transition Blending mocap:
Scrub the animation of the first motion and stop where the (Lead Foot) is "Flat."
1. Pin (the Lead) "Foot" of this motion.

Scrub the animation of the second clip and stop where the (Rear Foot) is "Flat."
2. Pin (the Rear) "Foot" of this motion.

3.Slide the (Skeleton's Root) of the first motion to the second skeleton's pivot.

Until you can do this.... there is no work-a-round that produces "Good Results."
...you splice both clips... blend.
Flip a coin.

"Feedback Traker"
_______________________________________________________________

JaffaDave...Once the curve editor drops i'm one very happy camper

iCloners will finally enjoy x,y,z tracks and learn how the keys accurately adjust motion.

...Then there needs will increase... (Change)... and they'll want to do more.
1.Interchange "Controllers".
2. Interchange "Modifiers" on the x,y,z tracks.

Feedback Tracker.

By mtakerkart - 3 Years Ago
@Thebiz

Unfortunarely I didn't use the kinect mocap. I have only the Neuron mocap. I have  result  i'm expected for the price and 
time consuming. I'm pretty shure that RL mocap from the content store are edited in motion builder for cleaning and precision Wink
By JaffaDave - 3 Years Ago
I've been around since the It's Me software days and I think IC7 is the best to date. Once the curve editor drops i'm one very happy camper. I have no reason to use older version anymore Smile Here are a couple of my latest renders, Oh and the speed... did I mention the speed..https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/db73c14b-d301-4eb7-bcb0-38a8.pnghttps://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/f286ddc8-c785-478c-b72d-dd81.png
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/3cca0d18-1404-49b5-a995-344e.png
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/47a3d0e4-65ee-490a-a7cd-b522.png
By mtakerkart - 3 Years Ago
@Thebiz

Can you show us what kind of result do you expect? Not your work but a mocap you saw anywhere you want to reach. I think 
it will be easier to help you if it's possible or not.
By Kelleytoons - 3 Years Ago
thebiz.movies (7/13/2017)
The animation process is still difficult.  Hopefully the curve editor will be all some hope for.  If the motion side is "figured out" then the world is our oyster (the ability to create custom non-mocap animations seemingly is still in the land of the ultra professional).


But creating custom mocap animations is squarely in the hands of us amateurs, so don't sit on the sidelines.  Heck, with Kinect and $99 iPisoftware you can create just about any custom stuff you want, easily and quickly.  Can't imagine why anyone would settle for less.

By thebiz.movies - 3 Years Ago
Kellytoons,
Are you mocaping with a Kinect?  Could you possibly share the results?  You might be the first IC user to say that the Kinect gives adequate results.  I watched many of the Mocap Kinect videos and never saw anyone get good clean results that they were happy with.  I would love to have a Noitom suit but I would also love to have an extra 1500$ lying about.