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By OnlyOneKenobi - 7 Years Ago
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I guess this is a multi part question, but bear with me...
I've been around on the Reallusion boards for a while now and I can't help but notice that very little of the discussions seem to be dedicated to the process of actually producing animations - aside from the technical "how to's" on the workings of iClone, Crazytalk etc.
I'm curious - how do set out to produce you projects? In my experience, I have a lot of ideas and concepts that I would love to turn into animations or movies, but It can be daunting to handle every aspect of the "production", from writing the story outline, to creating the script, to creating (or buying) the characters, sets, props, and then to animate it and make it into something worthwhile. And that's not even touching on things like finding and casting voice actors, post production and editing, music and audio...
It would be pretty cool if there was some kind of community where one could collaborate in various roles - where a "script writer" would produce the script, the "crew" would handle the building the assets and characters, the director would use the assets, characters and script to "build" the movie - render it out and perhaps hand it over to an editor to refine and add colour grading as well as post effects if required.
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By thedirector1974 - 7 Years Ago
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That's a good wish. Really. A colaboration to do a movie is nice thought, but it will never happen. Even people on this forum tried it last year and they never got pass the "talking about it" stage. Problem is, you will be invested as long it is YOUR movie. To do just a part of movie making creates not much reward in return. That's the sad truth.
But it doesn't mean that no one will help you. That's not the case. If you ask nicely, you'll always get help with your problems and needs. There are a lot of modelers and texture artists you can ask for help. On this level you will get your production done, but you must be aware that only you will do the most work in your movie ... always.
Last year I made a 15min. movie and it took a lot of time and resources. I had help from people of this forum to create this movie and overall it was a very enjoyable production time. Since several weeks I am in preproduction for my next iClone movie project. I will need some more time to have something to show and to talk about, but I will start a kind of journal soon. Stay tuned ...
Direx
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By rogyru - 7 Years Ago
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Think i can count on two hands how many people produce animations with any kind of story on the forum. Most will debate a small tech question for weeks are complain about things they dont have instead of focusing on what they do have . Then when it comes to making the stuff they talk about well that never seems to happen and they offer little feed back on animations . Its where i think RL drop the ball they give no direction to the community and the forums are a mess. People have more to say about still renders than they do animations and storys, you would think its the daz forums .
Forum needs to put its focus back on animations and give some structure given to the forums to encourage this. As it stands your better of on other short film forums are communitys if you want to discuss animation and production are get any decent feedback are ideas. Have RL even created a decent Animation for the launch of IC7? Because all i seen from them is small showcases and short renders . Lots of eye candy but little substance on display tends to be the order of the day .
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By mtakerkart - 7 Years Ago
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Today Du to the DRM protection it's difficult to share a project between users. Iclone is a "one man band" tool and they focused on that. I'm happy with this because the consequence is EZ button for every thing , very fast curve learning. My target is to produce with hiring people (with specific skills I don't have) for MY project.
@rogyrue Iclone was created first for previz. Animation was not the mainstream feature. That's why we didn't see final completion of film.Iclone was used for specific shots. Du to the game market , RL focused on characters creation and loop animation. Money talks. We didn't see animations discuss because The only feedback animations we saw is about to fix the limitness access of features to do it. First This year will be a change with the curve editor plugin and facial mocap. I will be the first to work on it. Second the Game animation look is accepted today as a standard. Have a look at this product made with UDK 4 :
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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It's an interesting discussion, but Director said it best. Collaborative projects seldom work -- there are exceptions that prove the rule (like the Star Trek fan films) but by and large a strictly volunteer effort is so difficult to coordinate, not due to copyright or DRM problems, but due to lack of a common vision.
My advice to young filmmakers starting off is to start SMALL. Do a 60 second project -- if you can't tell a compelling story in 60 seconds you can't tell anything longer. That is plenty of time to develop characters and learn all the other aspects of filmmaking no matter what the medium. Once you've master three or four of those you can step up to larger projects, but I would ALWAYS go in stages (so after 60 seconds, try a 10 minute animation, for example). Keeping your project and aspirations down to a smaller, manageable size, will allow you to work out your project workflow (and everybody's is different -- I've worked for large shops, run smaller ones, and done the one-man thing as I do now that I'm retired, and I've yet to see two workflows that were the same, although most follow similar processes).
For me, since my background is writing and directing, it always starts with the script, and then the actors voicing it. Once I have those tracks recorded I can concentrate on getting the assets together and so on. But in my retirement I often just play around until I get a visual I like while I'm also working out the script, because I let it drive the concept. Not a good way to work if you're trying to make money, or under time constraints, but the important thing if you're doing it for fun is to HAVE fun. And not fall down the rabbit holes (but I could write many, many paragraphs on that pitfall).
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By rogyru - 7 Years Ago
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mtakerkart (7/6/2017)
@rogyrue Iclone was created first for previz. Animation was not the mainstream feature. That's why we didn't see final completion of film.Iclone was used for specific shots. Du to the game market , RL focused on characters creation and loop animation. Money talks. We didn't see animations discuss because The only feedback animations we saw is about to fix the limitness access of features to do it. First This year will be a change with the curve editor plugin and facial mocap. I will be the first to work on it. Second the Game animation look is accepted today as a standard. Have a look at this product made with UDK 4 :
Thanks for the info i tend to forget iclone was a previz creation. But as yous say the tools are in place to do a great deal more now
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By paulg625 - 7 Years Ago
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I don't think it"s impossible to collaborate on Iclone project. But problem is looking here you find so many who want it to be their project. It would be like asking a group of actors to take on the role of creating sound, or FX, or directing. Now a few could and would take on the Directing role because it's close to something they know as an actor .
As to quality of productions you have to be willing to study as much about multiple disciplines as you try to learn about Iclone. But the draw back their is you end up like me studying everything but not producing anything. The collaboration would be a learning curve, as to the asset restrictions you would have to figure away around this (legally) by doing what Hollywood has done for a long time. Have different people shoot different parts then use editor to put images together. Interestingly the new camera matching could help in this endeavor. Allowing one person to shoot background plates and someone else to shoot character shots for example and having the camera moves needed to accomplish this being exported.
It is an interesting question though.
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By Delerna - 7 Years Ago
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Even people on this forum tried it last year and they never got pass the "talking about it" stage.
Just commenting my view of why that died here.
If its the one I think your talking about then it got a bit further than just talking about it but unfortunately a "professional" came and killed it. At least that's how I see it?
It was going quite well and participants building fairly well up until the professional came an told us how silly the majority of us are.
It died very quickly after that persons comments which kind of proved what was said I suppose.
I for one know that I am a noob video animator but I saw it as a great way to improve. Sad it died.
How dare noob's try and do something like that.
I have considered adding some extra videos to that post but........?
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By Pitapan - 7 Years Ago
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It is so so sad, I must say. I have been using Iclone for the past 5 years and I look back, since then I can't see a decent movie that was made with Iclone.
As a CG Artist I started with Blender and every now and then the community there create a short animated movie and the movies are always inspirational. It encourages people to see the possibilities in Blender.
A friend told me last week that ICLONE has made its users lazy to the extent that they want Reallusion to develop Iclone to the point of just talking on the mic and the characters will do whatever is been said.
Maya is also a decent software, difficult to learn, but the quality of the animation is always superb, that's because Maya users undergoes the nitty gritty of animation.
Iclone users can do the same if we stop been waiting to be food-fed by daddy Reallusion, and stop concentrating on PBR, Material, Substance.
I just want good animated STORY
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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It's always just been about the story -- you can use even single images, cross-faded, and tell a great story. Conversely, the best software in the world won't make a bad story worth watching.
I always tell beginners to try and put together a short (60 seconds but no more then 2 minutes) story and animate it. FAR too often I see failure when their grandiose plans don't see fruition because the will leaves halfway through the project. I have no idea what the collaborative project was here, but I will guess it was far longer than that. A short project, using limited resources, should be able to produce a really nice animation.
(You need to crawl before you can walk, but too often animators want to fly before they can even crawl).
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By Delerna - 7 Years Ago
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https://forum.reallusion.com/283225/so-how-about-a-community-story-line-?PageIndex=1
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By Kelleytoons - 7 Years Ago
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LOL -- yeah, I'm not about to read a 17 page thread, but just from glancing at the first page it seems to me the real issue is it wasn't well defined. And, again, a time limit should have been applied. Perhaps everyone do a 60 second story (the reason for shortness is twofold -- not only can it be readily accomplished, but it forces you to have a laser focus on what you want to say AND you need to keep it simple).
When pitching a movie you can end up with a dozen different ideas and as many (or many more) characters. With 60 seconds you are lucky to have more than two (two is ideal, though).
I've been through this on our own forum (for 2D animation, which I run) and it worked for a while, but in reality any such idea will run out of steam. That isn't to say it's not a bad thing to try it, only that you need to be aware it won't live long. This is another reason I love those animation contests (and length is almost always 60 seconds or less) that give you a week or two and then end ("Make an animation 60 seconds long about a new superhero origin story"). Those are fun because the very constraints make it liberating (it's why such things as iambic pentameter were so popular a form of poetry -- constrain brings out the true creativity).
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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I have to disagree with the statement that iClone was first and foremost software for pre-viz. When I bought iClone for the first time in 2006 (this was version 1.52), it was definitely marketed as a "movie-making machine" or something like that. If it had been marketed just for pre-viz, I would not have been interested. Pre-viz came later, as that seems to be another use for iClone.
I found version 1.x was hard to use, because animation had to be done in a separate tool, but with version 2.x everything was fully integrated. It may have been clumsy, but you could make movies with it. It took me a while to get used to the program, but after that I have created a number of movies (all narrative) and so have others. I think there are more than a handful creators, but not everyone posts on this forum. It's regrettable that discussions are mostly technical, but that's the way it is.
As has been pointed out, productions take a long time. In addition, with iClone 7 there is a lot of new stuff to learn, and old assets need to be converted to fully benefit from PBR.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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To also add something to the original question, unless the movie is very short, and I have already a clear idea, I'll write a screenplay. I also keep a Word document with notes. While working on an idea, I may change direction, as has happened with the film I'm currently working on.
To keep inspired, I may already develop some characters and create some primarily sets and even animate some scenes. The advantage of working on your own is that you can do things the way that suits you.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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I would love to see a group project succeed, but here are some major obstacles I see (some already mentioned)...
TEAM ASSEMBLY:
Most of want to be the one making the movie. Call it writer, producer, or director, we like "making the movie" so it will be difficult to assemble a team on this forum. Who here wants to do just the music, just the lighting, just the body animation, just the lip sync, just the facial expressions, just the physics, just the clothing, just the set, just the props, and on and on?
I'm not saying nobody would contribute, but most of us here, I think, are quite used to making the entire movie ourselves. You have to let go a lot of control, and /or you have to be willing to take direction and play a supporting role.
SCHEDULING AND AVAILABILITY:
Will Mr. X really spend 20 hours on the musical soundtrack next week? Will Ms. Z really get the lip sync refined by Thursday? Many of us work on a project between other activities (work and family) and don't always work under a schedule. By joining a team, you are making a commitment to others. Does the fun hobby start to feel like a second job rather than relaxation and entertainment?
 COLLABORATIVE AND TECHNICAL WORKFLOW:
I see this as the greatest obstacle. How do we work on an iClone project in parallel?
Two or three people might be able to take turns checking-out a shared copy, working on it, and uploading a new version to a shared drop-box site. But iClone doesn't really let us (effectively) export and import portions of a project. It's close in many ways, but I think that would be a significant challenge.
A real production house as a technical team dedicated to making the collaborative workflow function.
We have Alembic export, and we have the ability to save motions, and we can export cameras, but how do we export lighting? And import all those parts into the master project?
I did one large (solo) project, and the bookkeeping became quite a challenge even for myself, trying to keep straight all the different files for all the different scenes. Dialogue, music, iClone output, NLE files, and so on. I tried not to let my naming conventions evolve too much, because I knew consistency was important. I eventually created an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of what was the latest version of everything, and keep notes of what needed to be updated. Was my latest animation change rendered, and was that rendering reflected in the NLE file yet? We'd need to have very solid configuration management.
BUT IT CONTINUES TO BE ALLURING:
I have written a short script and had someone else animate it. (It was like a movie trailer, but for a book. Any my son did the "trailer voice" narration for it.) That was a very interesting and enjoyable experience. Some parts were exactly as I imagined it, and some others were a surprise in how it was interpreted and realized on the screen. I have also done voice-over work (for the tolerant and gracious Animagic). That, too, was fun and I was pleased to be able to lend a hand.
I am always willing to consider a community project, but it would definitely have to start out as a very short project while we work out the logistic and prove that it's possible.
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By animagic - 7 Years Ago
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justaviking (7/25/2017)
I have written a short script and had someone else animate it. (It was like a movie trailer, but for a book. Any my son did the "trailer voice" narration for it.) That was a very interesting and enjoyable experience. Some parts were exactly as I imagined it, and some others were a surprise in how it was interpreted and realized on the screen. I have also done voice-over work (for the tolerant and gracious Animagic). That, too, was fun and I was pleased to be able to lend a hand.
There was also the Halloween project we did together, where you had the idea, and I made something out of it, resulting in The End with you voicing Pinhead.
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By freerange - 7 Years Ago
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Agree with Kelleytoons to keep it under a minute. Think of it more like making a commercial than a film. You want to capture your audience quick, wow them and not let things drag on so they get bored.
Pretty much flesh out the script yourself, it is your baby, then recruit volunteers around the script.
To get around DRM you will pretty much need to make a lot of your own assets. You can collaborate using Nimble Collectiive's cloud pipeline so the team is sharing similar workflow. I have also used regular cloud sharing as well, even for professional work. My last company was cloud based and I did hire some iClone users. It worked very well collaborating on a cloud platform.
Lots of artists do this in the VFX industry so it happens quite often. You will need to be very flexible because when people get busy they will disappear on you.
If it is something with some market appeal your can crowdfund it and then that gives some monetary incentive for people to stay on.
If people drop out on your then finish it yourself, if anything it will be a good learning process especially since you will have a well defined goal.
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By justaviking - 7 Years Ago
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animagic (7/25/2017)
[quote] There was also the Halloween project we did together, where you had the idea, and I made something out of it, resulting in The End with you voicing Pinhead.
Yeah, that was a lot of fun too. You did a great job of taking the story idea and turning it into an actual script. I remember exchanging a few ideas back-and-forth too, as you shared WIP videos with me. I really enjoyed working on it with you (you did the vast majority of the actual work) and just now watched it again. You did a great job.
For those that might not know, there were serious rumors that we had reached our last Pinhead project, but all his fans campaigned for another one. That's the backstory for the death of "The Committee" and the hope for more in the future.
freerange (7/25/2017)
Agree with Kelleytoons to keep it under a minute. Think of it more like making a commercial than a film. You want to capture your audience quick, wow them and not let things drag on so they get bored.
I have a Pinhead story for that, too. We once had a "One-minute Challenge" and what a challenge it was! It is stunning how quickly one minute passes when you are trying to tell even a simple story. It made me truly appreciate a well-written TV commercial, and I marveled at how a good one tells a story in 60 (or even 30) seconds while attempting to sell you a product.
So not only is a 1-minute project a good writing challenge, it is a great way to work through the challenges of a collaborative project. Then we do a 5-minute one. And after that, we conquer the film industry.
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