Brekel Mocap and other recommended mocap systems (besides Perception Neuron) for iClone

Brekel Mocap and other recommended mocap systems (besides Perception Neuron) for iClone

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https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic322211.aspx

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By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

Jasper Brekelmans (Brekel.com) offers well-priced mocap sofware tools which to someone like me, just getting started seem well worth trying.
They include mackerels body motion, face and hand tracking, primarily using the Kinect but also the Leap for hand capture and other tools as well.

The capture of body and face simultaneously will limit the body motion capabilities so separate capture is usually preferable.

How can one most easily and effectively integrate the three separate data streams from body, face and hands to be able to utilize them in iClone?

Any other suggestions for "affordable" mocap techniques besides Perception Neuron would be welcome.

Thanks!

Robert Jaffe

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Ipisoft is by far the best solution outside of a motion capture suit. I've tested all the alternatives, including Brekal and Real Illusion's own offering, and Ipisoft is the only one that really works (I have a review posted somewhere on this forum about this, if you care to search -- I go into details about the three major ones and what are up and downsides).

By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

Hi, I'll gladly search for your posts on Ipisoft. thanks for your response!

Robert

By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

Hi , Is there a way of easily importing separately captured data streams such as body, face and hands into a single character/figure - either in iClone
or another app which primarily serves as a "mocap data integrator" and then import that into an iClone Timeline?
Thanks!

Robert

By hattori kun - 8 Years Ago

Ipisoft is professional grade mocap. The others are jittery and suffer from occlusion limitation.

By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

Hi Hattori, thanks for your opinion on this. Yes ipisoft does look quite good!

Robert

By Grimhilda - 8 Years Ago

Although I haven't tried any Mocap system, the subject is of interest to me. A couple of days ago I came across this:
https://www.fastmocap.com/

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Well, the skeptic in me says it's a bit too good to be true, but even if true you should be aware of one (major) caveat -- this ONLY works with XBox 360 Kinect, which they don't sell anymore. I happen to have one, so no big deal, but I'm guessing that if you don't have one you're SOL (I would not think it would work automagically with the new Kinect, as they use completely different APIs).

By Grimhilda - 8 Years Ago

Thanks for pointing that out, Kellytoons.
I had the impression that the system was only in early development and liked the look of it - even though the video only showed one 360 degree turn.
The other downside was that, for any software I use, I would need to buy the Pro version. It would have seemed a better deal to me if they had sold separate versions for different software packages.
By the time something that will be of use to me comes out I will be the perfect actor for advanced old age motions!

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

After reading their FAQ and thinking about it some more, I'm not so sure that software isn't very, very old (well, at least in the software world -- say two or three years back before XBox One and the new Kinect). Otherwise it's VERY odd they don't mention the new Kinect in their FAQ at least to say something about it. They do talk about the difference between the PC version of it and the one that comes with the XBox, but since that itself changed three years ago or so and isn't relevant anymore (nowadays there is only one version of the Kinect sold, not a PC versus an XBox version) that the whole things just strikes me as one of "aborted software that you could still spend money on with zero support" sort of thing.

And *I* can do all your old motions for you <g>. Even though I do have the ipisoft software, and it works well once it's setup, it's such a PITA to actually setup (getting your two Kinects synced and running your reference stuff, and then the clean up afterwards) that I'm thinking about the Perception at some point down the road (even though I'm on a fixed income and can't really afford it). The good news is the tools for editing motions keep getting better and better (the new Mixmove stuff is really nice now -- if only they could extend this to all other motions) that perhaps motion capture isn't really needed.

Facial mocap -- don't get me started on that (We REALLY need that ASAP).

By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago

be careful lots of scams out there.. first thing i do is look for contact info a real address
their whois is protected under domain privacy .. https://www.whois.com/whois/fastmocap.com
they dont even have a p.o. box mailing address ..
they are also using things like gundam style which is a stock freebie animation.
If i cant figure out who owns the business I tend to not touch.. and i can't find who owns this business..

By Grimhilda - 8 Years Ago

OK, Kellytoons, I'll defer to your wish to perform the old person mocaps. But I reserve the right to creak and shuffle along in real life.
Thanks, Urbanlamb (and Kellytoons) for investigating this further. The thought of a scam would never have crossed my mind.

I actually picked up on this from a YouTube video of something like the top five home motion capture systems and people commenting were blaming the video creator for just assembling video demos from original sellers websites rather than speaking from first-hand use.

It really does pay to be cautious. We really do live in a post-truth age.

By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago

Grimhilda (4/10/2017)

It really does pay to be cautious. We really do live in a post-truth age.

haha yes its true we got those "alternative facts" to worry about. Yeah the video was a bit suspicious to me on the website. I didnt check youtube for comments (dont read comments often anyhow) but if i dont recognize the vendor and i haven't seen em around then I tend to be super careful about these types of sites.

By Rampa - 8 Years Ago

Fastmocap was a real thing, just a long time ago, and for Macintosh only. It's long gone.

By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago

well that would explain that then since i am allergic to macs and apple in general. :)

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Yeah, and that explains the Kinect 360 comments on the web page -- I knew it smelled like very old software (as an old man, I know that old smell WAY too well).

By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago

With reference to mocap and facial expression capture Brekel's stuff does look good and I'll probably end up buying; but then you have to add/layer in the eyeball motion which Brekel's Kinect v2-based capture does not do.

I have some hopes for progress in Facerig which allows the export of animation but not yet in immediately usable form.
Check it out : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XzpSKxWso4
and
https://facerig.com/news/facerig-studio-going-live-annual-review/ (for FBX export sample data)

Home Built in Coolermaster ATX case with GigabyteGA-Z170X-GAMING 7 MoBo, i7-6700 @ 3.4 Ghz, Asus GeForce GTX 970 Graphics Card, 32GbDDR4 RAM, twin HD monitors, Huion H610 Pro Graphics Tablet, Kinect v2, LogitechWebcam, Win 10 64 Bit OS

By Dr. Nemesis - 8 Years Ago

Ipisoft used to be a superb choice before their pricing structure changed. Now it's a service, or software for rent, depending on how you see it. Not sure if it's great value now.

By mtakerkart - 8 Years Ago

@Seanmac

It's exactly what I want to do with Iclone and the incoming facial mocap. I was a indigo facerig backer and it's ironic that
they decide to give what I wanted only now.... Too late for them , I will buy the Iclone facial mocap system.

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

I agree 100%. All I really want is the Facial Mocap that RL is showing on their videos and that's supposed to be available in 7.1 (whenever the heck THAT is coming out. If they are taking so long for 7 I can only imagine how long it will take for the point release. Maybe, just maybe they will allow us early beta access as well if we are willing to buy the mocap stuff).

I know folks will disagree, but story telling is mostly about character, and we humans are programmed to respond to faces. It's VERY difficult to tell a story with just body language, and really hard to get a convincing look to a face without mocap (or spending an eternity animating). If I could get this before I die (and for me it's a very real concern) I would be very, very happy.

By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago

@mtakerkart

Yeah – I backed FaceRig, too. They have an elaborate bonesystem but the animation export system is too difficult for me to use. I washoping that someone on the forum could use the sample FBX data to animate aface. So far, no joy.

@Kelleytoons

I agree. iClone 7.1 recedes into the proverbial Mists ofTime. I am sure that RL want to get the stuff out, but leave us cut them someslack – it is no good getting the software out if it doesn’t work. And all therival facial motion capture software just goes to show that this is a hardproblem.

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

I want RL to get it right -- as a former (long retired) software engineer I am all too aware of the propensity to release stuff that is buggy. But even the samples I've seen so far are convincing and tell me that being allowed to beta (even alpha) test this stuff would be worthwhile. It's particularly frustrating to me since when I was in the industry (a couple of decades ago) I was instrumental in testing and molding such products as 3DS Max (although it was called 3DS Studio and ran on DOS at the time).

I certainly have both the chops and now, the time, to do a thorough testing of such stuff, at the same time being able to take advantage of it. But I worry it may be nearly a year (if that) before I'll see it and I truly do have a limited amount of years left. For those of you much younger you will be in good shape to reap the substantial benefits of such development.

By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago

Bear up, Kelley - be sure to take your vitamins, now!

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

LOL -- I'm trying my best (it's hell to get old, though).

(This was a VERY early attempt at generating my own heads with CT8).

Mike "feeling sorry for himself because he hurt his leg and can't play tennis for many weeks now" Kelley

By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago

Re: "It's hell to get old". Listen Kelly, I'm old, and I reckon it is better than the alternative.

But I like the clip.

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Yes it is <g>.

By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (4/16/2017)

lol your always good for a chuckle thanks hehe. :/

By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago

@urban lamb

No probs, struggle on...

By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

Hi, hate to disregard your request to not get you "started on mocap" but how about FaceShift for iClone?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the necessary details but I get the impression that one could purchase a relatively inexpensive camera like the Intel RealSense or even a Kinect and get high quality facial data. Could that data be integrated with previously captured full body motion in some other software package which functions like Motionbuilder but is less expensive?

Thanks!

Robert

By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago

@rjj1234

Faceshift - Each seat of the software costs $1,500/year.13 Mar 2015

Relatively inexpensive? You got rich relatives ;-)

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Supposedly (and rumors are all we have right now) the Facial Mocap part (add-on?) in iClone 7.1 is from FaceShift. Equally supposedly, it's NOT supposed to cost an arm and a leg (I guess FS can license its technology as long as you can't export it from iClone and use elsewhere). So we should be getting the same great facial tracking, but not at 1.5k a year (which is more than I could have afforded even when I was employed in the industry).

I assume that price is for professionals doing work for hire and yes, in that case, it's pretty reasonable. Not for hobbyists, though (the vast majority of iClone users).

By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago

You could well be right since FaceShift - now owned by Apple and seemingly changing its name to FACEWARE - has a peculiar item in its product pricing where it cites a zero cost for non-professionals.

By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

Yikes. I must have seen an ios app related to Faceshift. No that would not be relatively inexpensive regardless of one's "relatives." Does looks like great software but I'll be searching for alternatives. Still I'd love to check it out more carefully. Does anyone have a link for Faceshift Studios? Thanks!

By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

Thanks for that reminder about iClone's promise of Facial mocap!!! :-)

By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

I replies to your earlier post a bit too soon. I'll check this out. Many thanks!

By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago

@rjj1234
I think I may have conflated Faceshift and Faceware. Both similar I plead.
https://techcrunch.com/2015/11/24/apple-faceshift/
[Detailed report on apple's acquisition and its backstory as a start-up in Zurich.]
I'll look some more to see if apple have a web page about it.
My apologies to all.
Damnit I was thinking of Faceshift as the company that RL was dealing with rather than Faceware. Thanks Rampa.
So the price schedule above is correct as is from the Faceware site where they are asking visitors if they are coming from Faceshift

By SeanMac - 8 Years Ago

There's an interesting conversation about facial mocap including faceshift on

https://communities.intel.com/thread/110944

The interest is at the tail end where it says: "

There doesn't seem to be a reputable source remaining forthe Faceshift installation files - it looks like Apple scoured it from theinternet after their purchase. That is generally the modus operandi forcompany purchases where you are buying the tech for your own use - to shut offsupply of a product to new licencees as soon as purchase of a company iscomplete.

". So how RL is dealing with Apple's newly bought Faceshift clearly bought for the in-house purposes of Apple I am mystified to work out.

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

Apple (and for that matter, a lot of major companies) sometimes buy software companies both for their own use as well as to "freeze out" any competitor using that technology whether they intend to use it or not. I think Apple is notorious for it but I also know Adobe has gone this route as well.

Bad for the rest of us and, I assume, bad for a company like Real Illusion, but I'm hoping they already had a deal in place if this is the case, and Apple (or whoever) will have to honor it regardless. But I've said this on more than one occasion: Brekal (which I'm fairly sure is a one-man shop) could EASILY be incorporated into iClone and it would do Facial very well indeed and I suspect that RL could offer enough money for that developer (who can't be making a lot) to jump at the chance. So there are certainly opportunities beyond what they might have already explored.

I so desperately need this stuff I don't want to think about the possibility I may never have it.

By Rampa - 8 Years Ago

From the iClone 7 page:

"The iClone 7 Face Motion Capture uses a PC camera or pre-recorded video files to lock control points to the real actor’s face and drive 3D characters' facial performance in real-time. Not only it can instantly represent natural real-human expressions for standard or stylized 3D characters, head rotation, and agile eyeball movement. Capture mouth shapes for talking animation that can be used alone or blended with lip-synch.

*Available in iClone7.1 release, the PC camera and face tracker are additional add-ons requiring separate plug-in purchase that includes Faceware Real-time Animation for iClone."

By Kelleytoons - 8 Years Ago

There ya go -- if Rampa says it, it's true!

(Now if only 7.1 would get here. Heck, we don't even have 7.0 yet and already I'm dissatisfied :>).

By animagic - 8 Years Ago

As others have pointed out, Faceware is not Faceshift, so I believe you can relax: http://facewaretech.com/faceshift-to-faceware/.

Apple acquired Faceshift in Nov 2015, before the iClone 7 announcement. You wouldn't want to really on Apple for your product development.

By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago

animagic (4/17/2017)

oh gosh yes they would not lock us into apple. Everything reallusion creates is geared towards workhorse pc's.

I would like to see the iclone version be economical, but we will need to see. One thing is for sure it will be created for the animation/cgi world which is all pc based.

By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

"Teasers" for iClone 7.1 mocap and the ability to toggle between characters looks pretty great but I'd love to learn what the process/mechanics would be to either simultaneously capture two characters for iClone 7.1 etc. (the simultanity of their capture would seem to make the INTERACTION between those two characters a lot easier and more accurate than if we had to capture them one after the other separately and somehow EDIT that interaction together so we could see the two of them "Interacting" in one frame/scene (would that even be possible in iClone?) And if that is possible will there be a way for us to simultaneously capture multiple characters in one "frame" or "scene" rather than merely cutting back and forth between multiple characters (possibly using multiple Sony Eye cameras the way ipiSoft does? Very important questions for me.

By mtakerkart - 8 Years Ago

@rjj1234

Yes you can record 2 characters performing at the same time. This is an old video I made to
explain a performance with two characters in the same time. (sorry for my poor english)

The procedure from Noitom

By rjj1234 - 8 Years Ago

Hi Mtakerkart
Sorry for the delay in responding. Thanks so much for sharing that animation your created using your Perception Neuron Suits. I thought it looked great and I was amazed at how much detail of
articulation there is in the characters.
A few questions:
I would love to know if there is a way of creating a "scene" involving two characters interacting with each other in the same "physical" space by doing the mocap ONE CHARACTER AT A TIME separately
(using only one P.N. rig)

I'd also love to know if there will be any other ways of doing SIMULTANEOUS two character mocap (in the same scene) directly from within iClone 7 with any other capture
systems besides Perception Neuron.

If you later wished to add facial and hand animation data to these animations/characters, would Motion Builder be the way of currently doing it?
(I know that soon (hopefully) we'll have facial mocap from within iClone)

FYI absolutely zero trouble understanding your English.
Thanks very much for your reply!

Robert

By mtakerkart - 8 Years Ago

I'm trying to answer because I'm not sure I understand well :ermm:

Yes you can record one character at a time and each time you add a character and hit record , the previous character
will play what you recorded and you can react/interacter with your previous performance.
You can make 10 times if you PC is enough strong and interact with the 10 characters.
BUT to do this you MUST Broadcast from Axis when recording , you can't do that only in Axis.
You can mocap the fingers too if you have the 32 Neurons kit. Sorry I never use Motionbuilder.
I don't know other System of motion capture.

And if you see this video , you can "reshoot" your scene with a virtual camera.
I create a cameraman and my shoulder is the camera.