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By stuckon3d - 17 Years Ago
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This is an APE (Audience Participation Excercise) BTW, Dulci i love that abbreviation glad you came up with it. :)
So here is the scoop, a very talented icloner here ask me how do we keep the audience's attention from wandering around the images. I mentioned to him that if he would make a list from 1 to 10 of the first things that attracted his eyes the most by taking a look at this image, the answer would be revealed to him. I hope everyone in the forum here will participate. Please post your list and the answer. You will surprised how many of your lists will be the same. Have fun. ;)
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By Alley - 17 Years Ago
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okay, In the image above, I focused on....... 1) Slasher, 2) guy with weapons at front 3) guy on right
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By stuckon3d - 17 Years Ago
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Alley (11/9/2009)
okay,
In the image above, I focused on.......
1) Slasher, 2) guy with weapons at front 3) guy on right
Excellent Alley, thank your for participating. Come people dont be shy, this is for everyones benefit. :)
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By sjonesdc - 17 Years Ago
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stuckon3d, My eyes are first drawn to the blade wiyh the fire relflecting off of it sjonesdc :hehe:
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By afterThought - 17 Years Ago
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For me it was first the fire on the right, then the reflection of the fire off the weapon in the guy's right hand, then the glow on the guy's right arm (and him by association).
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By duchess110 - 17 Years Ago
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1st The Chainsaw Man 2nd The Axe 3rd Looking what was causing the axe reflection - the fire. 4th The guy Holding the axe (nice butt):w00t: 5th The guy stood on the side of the building with two weapons and the mask.
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By stuckon3d - 17 Years Ago
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Great observations guys. So based on all the lists so far, what would you say the answer to the questions is? :cool:
how do we keep the audience's attention from wandering around the images?
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By thebiz.movies - 17 Years Ago
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Its either lighting or nice butts.
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By sumthinwong - 17 Years Ago
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My guess would be foreground objects
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By Paumanok West - 17 Years Ago
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The traditional answers are as follows:
1. Reduce contrast and brightness in the background; increase it in the foreground
2. Use cooler colors whenever possible because warmer colors are thought to approach the viewer
3. Minimize movement in the background; also minimize movement of other characters while any given character has the stage!
4. Avoid clutter and treat the scene as a stage, with empty areas for the actors to move
The tradition of epic anime films over the past decade, however, gets away with violating #4. In big-budget anime films, the backgrounds are virtual characters in themselves. They are extremely rich in detail.
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By aknzrdude - 17 Years Ago
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well this is somewhat of a wierd question
if this scene was in a movie, we notice the highlighted characters first, taking in the conveyed purpose of the characters
as a still picture, to me, the first glance it take gives me the obvious thing - the lit ones - bathed in orange light - my first thought -cool lighting, scene
adding more little details to the characters might help clue us in on who/what they are and possibly keep our attention on the main objects
but having asked the question, you take away instinct and now i look at it with a different eye so you somewhat bias the response
now what i see is the anachronism - a modern urban decayed street with some thugs holding medieval weapons
stuckon3d (11/10/2009)
Great observations guys. So based on all the lists so far, what would you say the answer to the questions is? :cool:
how do we keep the audience's attention from wandering around the images?
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By Paumanok West - 17 Years Ago
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aknzrdude (11/10/2009)
a modern urban decayed street with some thugs holding medieval weapons
OK, aknzrdude, no political punditry in a technical discussion! :P :P :P
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By stuckon3d - 17 Years Ago
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Paumanok West (11/10/2009)
The traditional answers are as follows:
1. Reduce contrast and brightness in the background; increase it in the foreground
2. Use cooler colors whenever possible because warmer colors are thought to approach the viewer
3. Minimize movement in the background; also minimize movement of other characters while any given character has the stage!
4. Avoid clutter and treat the scene as a stage, with empty areas for the actors to move
The tradition of epic anime films over the past decade, however, gets away with violating #4. In big-budget anime films, the backgrounds are virtual characters in themselves. They are extremely rich in detail.
H Paumanok,
you nailed it, the key to guide the audience's eyes is good lighting by doing exactly the points you mentioned above. The only thing i would change from your first point is instead of increasing it in the foreground, which works for this case in particular, it would be to enhance it on the characters you want the audience to look at. And when you combine that with the main character motion (motion, which another thing that attracts people's attention) I can guarantee that the audience's attention will not wander around. ;)
I hope this was helpful for everyone out there,
Stuckon3d
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By stuckon3d - 17 Years Ago
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Dear Gabe,
I fail to see why this hostility/frustration coming from you, this is the second time you try to sabotage something that im doing in good nature to help out here.
So please tell me without getting frustrated what is it that you feel im doing wrong.
"well this is somewhat of a wierd question"
how is this weird, Is the topic of the conversation. Isn't it.
"if this scene was in a movie, we notice the highlighted characters first, taking in the conveyed purpose of the characters" .
Well since iclone is about movie making that is what we are talking about, and as you pointed out, the key to get people's attention is the proper lighting of your main characters.
If your characters are lit with similar values as your background, they will get lost, making your audience to start wandering all over the image looking for clues to where you want them to look at next. While this picture is an oversimplication of the point i was trying to make. I choose this picture for that exact purpose.
Then you mentioned: "as a still picture, to me, the first glance it take gives me the obvious thing - the lit ones - bathed in orange light - my first thought -cool lighting."
Thanks for the compliment, and again, even as a still, the answer is the same, good character lighting.
"adding more little details to the characters might help clue us in on who/what they are and possibly keep our attention on the main objects"
What you are asking here is beyond what the original question was and it would not guide the audience's look at point, Details is something people look for the second time around they watch your movies, not the first, and specially not in an action sequence. This thread is all about how to get people's attention when they are looking at your movies and not get distracted witht the backgrounds.
"but having asked the question, you take away instinct and now i look at it with a different eye so you somewhat bias the response "
Bias in what way, by congratulating people for pointing out the common denominators in their lists. which was what this excercise was all about, By pointing out that everyone was looking at my intended area. Which was by design and not luck, and showing how the image is good example of how to get people's attention to an area of an image?
"now what i see is the anachronism - a modern urban decayed street with some thugs holding medieval weapons"
that is one very fancy shmancy word there Gabe, which of these meanings are you referring to:
"is an error in chronology, especially a chronological misplacing of persons, events, objects, or customs in regard to each other. The item is often an object, but may be a verbal expression, a technology, a philosophical idea, a musical style, a material, a custom, or anything else so closely associated with a particular period in time that it would be incorrect to place it outside its proper domain."
If you are trying to tell me that having medieval weapons in a modern urban city scene is wrong? well... what can I say, it looks cool and it goes with the buttkicking that the main character is going to dishout. Sorry if you dont like my artistic choice.
aknzrdude (11/10/2009)
well this is somewhat of a wierd question if this scene was in a movie, we notice the highlighted characters first, taking in the conveyed purpose of the characters as a still picture, to me, the first glance it take gives me the obvious thing - the lit ones - bathed in orange light - my first thought -cool lighting, scene adding more little details to the characters might help clue us in on who/what they are and possibly keep our attention on the main objects but having asked the question, you take away instinct and now i look at it with a different eye so you somewhat bias the response now what i see is the anachronism - a modern urban decayed street with some thugs holding medieval weapons stuckon3d (11/10/2009)
Great observations guys. So based on all the lists so far, what would you say the answer to the questions is? :cool:
how do we keep the audience's attention from wandering around the images?
PS: I love these artistic debates :P
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By sisch - 17 Years Ago
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Fire reflection on the axe blade
chainsaw guy
building in the middle, background.
Answer to the question?
Mostly through lighting; depth of vision is one of the cruder forms of 'guiding' (more like forcing).
I would say placing the three characters where they are in a triangle is classical, too, whereas the guy with the two blades to the far right nearly escaped me completely on first viewing.
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By aknzrdude - 17 Years Ago
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Chris you surprise me - the word sabotage is a harsh word and is really offensive me - you also mention hostility - where did that come from - nowhere was there any form of hostility - i respect you as an artist and so when you solicit comments - i give you my honest opinion - my comments are not intended to offend or 'sabotage' the thread - next time you solicit comments, be advised that there are other opinions - does not mean yours is wrong, only means other see it a different way - to clarify my points
you seem to take the word 'bias' in a negative way - it is not it just means that by asking the question it changes my frame of mind - it is different from instinct - when i first looked at picture my eyes were drawn to the orange light - having asked the question, i looked again but this time at the background - so my point is by asking the question, you change my frame of mind in that i was searching for other details rather than jsut lookign at the first thing that drew my attention
"anachronism" - again you seem to take this as an offense - when it was a compliment - meaning to say becuase of the disconnect in the weapons and the settings it draws the person's interest more
finally you say "PS: I love these artistic debates"
yes but let's get thick skinned first
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By gizmo - 17 Years Ago
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"when i first looked at picture my eyes were drawn to the orange light - having asked the question, i looked again but this time at the background - so my point is by asking the question, you change my frame of mind in that i was searching for other details rather than jsut lookign at the first thing that drew my attention". I have to agree with akn on this point, because thats exactly what happened to me. On first seeing the pict I was initially drawn to the character on the left, but after reading further and going back to the picture I was drawn to the axe. Or maybe it was just because it was a second viewing. Very interesting anyway.
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By stuckon3d - 17 Years Ago
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aknzrdude (11/11/2009)
Chris you surprise me - the word sabotage is a harsh word and is really offensive me - you also mention hostility - where did that come from - nowhere was there any form of hostility - i respect you as an artist and so when you solicit comments - i give you my honest opinion - my comments are not intended to offend or 'sabotage' the thread - next time you solicit comments, be advised that there are other opinions - does not mean yours is wrong, only means other see it a different way - to clarify my points
you seem to take the word 'bias' in a negative way - it is not it just means that by asking the question it changes my frame of mind - it is different from instinct - when i first looked at picture my eyes were drawn to the orange light - having asked the question, i looked again but this time at the background - so my point is by asking the question, you change my frame of mind in that i was searching for other details rather than jsut lookign at the first thing that drew my attention
"anachronism" - again you seem to take this as an offense - when it was a compliment - meaning to say becuase of the disconnect in the weapons and the settings it draws the person's interest more
finally you say "PS: I love these artistic debates"
yes but let's get thick skinned first
Dear Gabe,
just like you have your opinions I have mine, and we are here to share them, in a nice and polite manner of course. ;) The way you phrased your post felt like you were challenging the way I was trying to teach my point. therefore challenge = aggressive. If that was not your intention fine, if it was, well that is fine too. Like you said we are all entitle to our own views and opinions. And i respect that. That's why when i replied to you, i did it in a polite way and not start yelling at you. I also try to clarify the points you looked confused or felt weird about. Again, in a polite manner. BTW the fact that I replied in this way shows that I'm plenty thick shinned. FYI
Also, sorry if the the word sabotage offended you and it felt harsh, so how about i call it focus shifting intead. Becuase that is what your post was, so much so that you got now someone else second guessing himself, and I was not the only one thinking that, because someone posted right below you , in his own words of course, to stay with the thread.
However lets get back to the heart of your post, this is what it sounded like to me:
The fact that I asked the question, made you second guess yourself, and made you start looking for a different answer beyond the obvious. Is that what you were trying to say?
My question to you is why? This is the post where "the question" in question (pun intended :D ) came in:
"Great observations guys. So based on all the lists so far, what would you say the answer to the questions is?
how do we keep the audience's attention from wandering around the images?"
I highlited the "so based on all the lists so far" for you because if you missed that i could see why things got weird for you. However, I also was reassuring people that their lists had enough commonality that they were ready to answer the question. And please noticed that i waited until enough people gave their lists before asking the question.
By doing this there was no second guessing involved. The answer was obvious. "Lighting" is a great tool to guide the audience's look at point. One of the many ways available.
After people posted their answers, I was going to mentioned why and how to achieve this using iclone. Because even if people know the obvious answer sometime they just dont know how to apply it correctly in their projects. Does the answer mean by putting a spotlight on your character, no. Sure this works if you are doing theater and the likes, but what about if your are trying to do a day time scene where both the actors and the background share the same lights? what can you do?
This is where Paumanok answer comes in, minus a few minor details he nailed it:
1. Reduce contrast and brightness in the background; increase it in the foreground
2. Use cooler colors whenever possible because warmer colors are thought to approach the viewer
3. Minimize movement in the background; also minimize movement of other characters while any given character has the stage!
4. Avoid clutter and treat the scene as a stage, with empty areas for the actors to move
And he was the originator of this question. He was the reason i started this thread. When I saw his answer, it put a big smile on my face cause i knew the wisdom I was trying to share has been passed. He saw deep into the answer, past the obvious meaning and nailed it. Bravo man! :D
I know from now on he will never see an image the same way again and his art will benefit that much more from it.
Sure , i could have just given the answer out without using an APE(audience participation excersice) but it is my experience that if you learn things through self-realisation and doing, you tend to embed the answer better in your brain and really apply what you learn, instead of going: "oh that makes sense" and then forget to apply what you learned.
This was the methodology behind my training on this post and the result is the reason I enjoy teaching.
This all happen before your post. Perhaps if you would have worded things difrerently, like saying : hey cris what did you mean by this.... Instead of saying: look at what you are making me do by asking this question... i might have been able to explain all this before the drama. thats all im saying. I have no ill will towards you. But I will stand by my methods unless you can prove them misleading. And then of course i will apologize. And say thank you.
Peace brother in arts,
Stuckon3d
PS: I trully live by my signature "the way is in training". It really is.
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By aknzrdude - 17 Years Ago
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ok let's call in a misunderstanding and move on
now a non offense intended question
when doing a daylight scene and without using dof - what is the best way to draw attention/hold the attention to a specific object
i find easier to do dark/.night scenes because you can use lighting to draw the focus - but i always find it difficult for daylight scenes
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By Teviniii - 17 Years Ago
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Stuckon3D, I love your still imagery and set design.
Do you, by chance, have any work online with motion and contiguous events?
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By stuckon3d - 17 Years Ago
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aknzrdude (11/11/2009)
ok let's call in a misunderstanding and move on
now a non offense intended question
when doing a daylight scene and without using dof - what is the best way to draw attention/hold the attention to a specific object
i find easier to do dark/.night scenes because you can use lighting to draw the focus - but i always find it difficult for daylight scenes
Now that sounds like a mighty fine idea brother. :cool:
Now to answer your question. While I will be teaching this in depth on my intro to lighting and advance lighting class, ill give you a few tips here. Just because i like you. ;)
When lighting a day time scene try this:
1) Use foliage if you can, to cast shadows on the background. This will make your character stand out more in full light.
2) Using Rim lighting on the character. This will give you an extra light to make it stand out. Rim lighting= a source light that gives your character an outline, usually coming from one side.
3) Using bounce lighting on the character. Bounce lighting= a source light imitating light coming from the ground. this is yet another light you can add to your character to make it stand out.
I hope this helps you out a bit, and like I said, all these lighting techniques will be cover on my intro to lighting and advanced classes. I hope to see you there.
Stuckon3d
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By stuckon3d - 17 Years Ago
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Teviniii (11/11/2009)
Stuckon3D, I love your still imagery and set design.
Do you, by chance, have any work online with motion and contiguous events?
Hi teviniii,
Thanks, and to answer your question, the quick answer is no, not at the moment, however my goal is to make a few more still from different movie styles and make them all come to life in ten to twenty second shots, so that I can make then in to a powerful showcase of what iclone is capable. :)
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By aknzrdude - 17 Years Ago
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thanks good points on the foliage and lighting will try those
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By CRAIGSLIST-04 - 17 Years Ago
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01 - Street Lines 02 - Blade and Fire 03 - Guy with PickAxe 04 - Guy with Two Cleavers 05 - Guy with Chain Saw 06 - Blood on Apron 07 - Bottle on Ground 08 - Beverage Can on Ground 09 - Buildings on Left 10 - Sky :cool:
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By stinkyu111 - 17 Years Ago
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hi all i love this thread and the topic itself. visual impact IS the most important area of making a movie/video. i'll list what i think is important ( in general ) 1. motion...if you have 15 different things moving at once, the idea of motion is reduced and what is not movig is important. 2 eyes....we look for signs of life and the eyes have it... at this image the chain saw guy is more important ...not only do you see his eyes but also the man in the forground is looking at the chain saw guy. 3 placement we read left to right and will scan the image the same. 4 tones (light and darks) 3 and 4 is shown with the placement of the fire coming out of the can...the can being light and looking like is forward and if you place the can anywhere else would have made it look "out of place" this is just the tip of the ice ...you could get in to design and composition :) Steve
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By stuckon3d - 17 Years Ago
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stinkyu111 (11/23/2009)
hi all
i love this thread and the topic itself.
visual impact IS the most important area of making a movie/video.
i'll list what i think is important ( in general )
1. motion...if you have 15 different things moving at once, the idea of motion is reduced and what is not movig is important.
2 eyes....we look for signs of life and the eyes have it... at this image the chain saw guy is more important ...not only do you see his eyes but also the man in the forground is looking at the chain saw guy.
3 placement we read left to right and will scan the image the same.
4 tones (light and darks)
3 and 4 is shown with the placement of the fire coming out of the can...the can being light and looking like is forward and if you place the can anywhere else would have made it look "out of place"
this is just the tip of the ice ...you could get in to design and composition :)
Steve
Hi Steve,
those are excellent points, however if you dont have the proper lighting, those things would easily get lost imho. For example:
Motion: If you have an evenly lit scene and just a couple of character on the scene, them motion would be the correct answer, but if you have a lot of characters, like you said motion would just be confusing. In the case of a battle, how do depict where your hero is in the middle of that chaos, to me the answer is proper lighting. And please, im not saying motion is wrong by any means, IMHO is just secondary to proper lighting. On the plus side, the motion of all the characters moving towards a single target will make the audience look at where they are running to. :)
Eyes: For me, unless we are dealing with a close up , Line of sight is more important than the sign of life on the eyes. But again this is only secondary to proper lighting. On the plus side, when you can see the characters line of sight and see that they all converge into the main hero character, it will make the audience look at where they are looking at too. :)
Like i said, those are great tools as well, thank you for sharing your views, im sure this will help everyone.
Take care,
Stuckon3d
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