Face Motion Capture iClone 7

Face Motion Capture iClone 7

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https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic314752.aspx

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By Space 3D - 9 Years Ago

Dear RL or iCloner ,
Face capture is look great on demo iClone 7 ( Episode 2 ).
This reference for Face Capture by Mixamo plugin for Unity.
This plugin only use " Web Camera Computer " . Not expensive but result good quality.
Best Plugin for iClone 7 .

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By eternityblue - 9 Years Ago

Faceware that iClone 7 uses is supposed to work with any video camera or recorded video as well. The bit about the Logitech camera was a bit weird, I truly hope they don't somehow decide to go with some arbitrarily chosen proprietary hardware, but I'm guessing that isn't the case, as it would be a poor move.

My guess: with the wording below from the latest video preview is that marketing didn't really understand the details, and included the test rig details in the advert, as well as mentioning a camera is an additional cost, but conflated that with the cost of the plugin.

https://www.reallusion.com/event/iClone7-preorder/animation.html

*Available in iClone7.1 release, the PC camera and face tracker are additional add-ons requiring separate plug-in purchase that includes Faceware Real-time Animation for iClone.
*The real-time markerless face tracking demo is made by:
- Faceware Real-time Animation for iClone
- Logitec HD PRO C920R PC Camera
*Visual by 3DTest

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

I've been playing with the 30 day demo of Faceware Live for a few days now. I find my phone's front camera is pretty ideal. So now I know there is ONE acceptable use for vertical video!;)

The version RL is getting is custom tailored, and is said to support both live and pre-recorded video. It works much better than that old Mixamo software.

Go download a copy to check it out!
(bottom of the page) http://facewaretech.com/products/software/realtime-live/

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

When you say "playing with it" I assume you can't really export the data to iClone but perhaps could to MotionBuilder or Unity (neither of which do I have). So what, exactly, can you see by playing with it other than the markers tracking your video?

If that's all, I'd rather not play until I can see an actual character result, because that's where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. But it's encouraging, and I would hope the pricing is reasonable. This (facial mocap) is all I've ever wanted out of iClone because so much of my current animation is dialog driven, so I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high.

By VirtualMedia - 9 Years Ago

Kelleytoons: I would hope the pricing is reasonable. This (facial mocap) is all I've ever wanted out of iClone because so much of my current animation is dialog driven, so I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high.

It looks promising, however the pricing and annual fees puts faceware well into 'out of the question territory'. I personally found even the pro demo video rather jittery and prefer a more exaggerated approach to animation. Opinions aside if the plugin is reasonably priced it would certainly be worth considering.

I noticed you have a strong interest in this Kelleytoons and hope it works in your favor. ;)

By eternityblue - 9 Years Ago

Faceware's pricing structure as it appears on their website is confusing. The site licenses are indeed expensive, but then, they are pro licenses for animation shops. The Unreal client license is listed as $1500, but then also it says 3rd party, so that may be from some other vendor's package, but you would need to inquire with sales to even know that. Then Live 2.0 'other clients' is listed as $0 'FREE' so I am just wondering what is going on. I imagine it will cost something reasonable, just I hope it is also economical for my meager budget.

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

Their live clients are free, but unless I'm misunderstanding how it all works (I viewed a few of the demos) it appears you need the Facewear server in order to use the Live stuff. IOW, the Live client only feeds to the online server (which does the heavy lifting). And it's also how they can charge a monthly/yearly/whatever license, for their server side.

It would have to be a TON more reasonable than it currently is for me to be interested in using it. In fact, I can't even imagine it being something ANYONE using iClone would use if the pricing stayed what it is for other software. Those prices are for professional shops, not for prosumer production work, which iClone is squarely positioned for.

And, yes, I am HUGELY in need of this kind of thing, but I can't afford to pay thousands of dollars each year for it (I wouldn't mind paying even up to hundreds per year, but anything over $500 just doesn't make sense. If that's what happens then iClone and I will part company once and for all).

By eternityblue - 9 Years Ago

There's a $20 app on Steam that looks like it does a pretty damn good job. We need that sort of developer connected with iclone. I also am out of the game and waiting on another party if this is more than $100 or so. If RL are hoping this goes over well, I'm guessing it won't.

By eternityblue - 9 Years Ago

http://store.steampowered.com/app/274920/

It's $15, not $20.

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

It is a custom tailored version that RL will sell. Probably very specific to iClone.

There is basically Faceware Live Server, a stand-alone application, that generates a stream of data that the clients in various software can grab. The plugin for iClone uses that data to control the standardized morphs of an iClone character. I am wondering if it will also drive non-CC characters. We currently can drive the face of any character that has bone based or morph based facial gestures assigned to the RL rig. So maybe :)

Yeah. I cannot do much besides watch the tracking happen on my face. There is a default 3d model that you can watch move with your facial input. I wanted to see how well it worked with a small, inexpensive camera. The answer is quite well! :) In fact, a standard resolution video is best. It has plenty enough detail, but is not going to bog down the processing speed.

The sliders for strength and smoothing, and the masking, are part of the RL plugin. Faceware Live Server does not have those as part of its functionality. It is also going to work with video files, not just "live". In the FSL demo, I could not find a way to load a file, and so am using a virtual webcam. That basically takes a video and makes it streaming, like from a desk/laptop camera. If I wasn't so ugly, I would post some video!;)

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

Yeah, after watching all the demos I pretty well figured out I didn't need to see what the demo could do. It *sounds* like it would be what most of us would like for iClone, but the pricing will be something we are all concerned about given the current Faceware pricing. Either that scheme will have to be significantly different, or this will be a VERY niche product that almost no one using iClone would even consider.

So I await word -- most likely many months (although I'd be thrilled if I could get something by the summer) but perhaps before then we'll know at least how much it will cost. As I said, if it's out of my range (which I suspect is pretty typical for most iClone users -- if anything, I'm apt to spend more than the typical user) then I will once and for all abandon iClone. But at least a resolution is in sight.

By VirtualMedia - 9 Years Ago

RL has a solid understanding of what their customers spend and are willing to pay for software / upgrades. With that said I can't imagine RL would want to cripple their loyal customers with so much dept they won't be able to continue purchasing RL products / upgrades...

'Just trying to paint a rainbow'

The open APi is another window, hopefully it will open other options for other MOCAP solutions and affordability.

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

Yes, those are both good points, although I tend to be more pessimistic about this in light of the mocap hardware solution RL promotes. Yes, hardware mocap IS expensive, no getting around it, but so is the Faceware software, and I can see corollaries there. They might just take the position "well, if you want this you'll need to pay big bucks for it just like with the body mocap stuff" which to me is a terrible position to take given how cheap other solutions are.

I thought about the API, and there are other solutions that might make that a viable alternative, but frankly I'm getting less and less interested in programming what I want out of my graphics software (I did that for years with 3DMax, even making some money out of it, and have continued to gain some amount of fame and notoriety with my 2D Moho stuff). I'm an old man who wants a plug and play solution here, and if it comes in at more than the iClone software price then I will abandon it and stick to 2D.

By eternityblue - 9 Years Ago

I do wish Reallusion would at least give some ballpark regarding pricing.

By hattori kun - 9 Years Ago

Price will probably be in the range of the kinect mocap and neuron plugin.
100 to 200? Plus the faceware software.

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

Right, but it's the Faceware software price that's crazy.

So if that's the case, there are unlikely going to be ANY RL users using it (other than those who make money from their iClone animations -- any out there doing that?)

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

Just to give you an example, the Faceware Live (the *cheapest* solution) is $600 per MONTH (or $2500 per year) for the server software, which you'll need to accept the Live client stuff.

I can't see how they will change this, so no matter how cheap (even free) the RL side is, the server side will mean that there won't be ANYONE using iClone that uses this stuff. No one.

Which is why it was insanity to use FW for iClone. What were they thinking, when there are FAR better (reasonably priced) solutions out there. Oh, perhaps the others aren't as robust (although I call BS on that -- I've seen just as good results from Webcam autocaptures from stuff costing $99) but they are priced for the hobbyist, which iClone is definitely the target for.

Unless I see some real evidence this is going to change, I think a lot of folks will abandon iClone for things which integrate more fully with cheaper facial mocap systems.

By mtakerkart - 9 Years Ago

There is 2 markets.Market "in" and market "export". Using Faceware tech INSIDE Iclone and ONLY INSIDE Iclone take very few Royalty for the compagny developping facial algorythm.
So the plugin ,wich will integrate Faceware algorythm, will cost not so much.
NOW if you want using facial mocap to send animation with character for selling OUTSIDE iclone or use in the video game , that's an another story.
I was scam with Facerig that I back 2 yers ago because they have made believe that there will be a version that could be export the facial mocap animation
for use in other 3d app. It will never happen because they use a non house owner algorythm, Royalty are tremedous for this ability.

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

I understand (I think) what you are saying, but it doesn't reconcile with their current pricing scheme (which charges money even for "inside" technology inside of Motionbuilder or Unity.

Now if you are extrapolating and saying that because such capture (inside of Unity) could then be exported out as facial animation used elsewhere, I'd argue the same is true inside of iClone. Can't you export, now, using XChange animation you create inside of iClone? I don't use the full version of XChange to do any of that so I'm not sure, but I thought that was how it worked.

I'm fine with ONLY having facial animation inside of iClone for a reasonable price (less than $500, say). But the fees for the server prices they are showing (and so far I don't see there is a way to use this without the server side) are so ridiculous I can't even imagine it. But I will remain (reasonably) calm until I hear the official word.

(Oh, and if I'm sounding a bit panicked for something that won't even come out until version 7.1 -- this is ALL I've ever wanted from iClone. With it I can finally do the animations I want to do, which are all dialog driven. I'd LOVE to have the capability shown at a price I could afford in my lifetime, which is rapidly getting to the end).

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

I don't have enough information and don't see the point to jump to any wild conclusions. I think mtakerkart's view is interesting and would be OK for me, although it's not very hopeful for those who want to export facial animation.

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

You're right, of course -- I am TRYING to remain calm (if only this wasn't the holy grail for me. Sigh).

On the optimistic side, such a capability, reasonably priced so that most iClone users could afford, would rocket iClone into surpassing almost any sort of animation software out there. Just think of it, iClone stuff has been pretty impressive for a long, long time and it's (mostly) only been body and/or long range stuff. *Most* significant animation revolves around humans or humanlike creatures and their facial expressions. You'd be hard pressed to name even one major animation film or tv show that didn't feature extensive facial animation. Heck, that's all Crazytalk is, really. So for iClone to offer this would be world changing.

By freerange - 9 Years Ago

Faceware support is an add-on. You still have face puppeting and MUCH better face keying with 7. If you want to use Faceware you can use any version.

Faceware Live Server is $2500 to buy plus $500 for yearly support, you do not pay $2500 every year you pay $500 which includes updates and phone support, etc. It is professional software that caters to a professional market. We use it a lot, and it supports any camera though some work better than others. They are just showing the Logitech because that is a cheap camera that actually works VERY well with faceware. We got better tracking with it than their ProHD camera. You can also buy kits that include a helmet and wireless video. Faceware Live will also take a pre-recorded clip and we have had very good luck with standard cell phone footage. With pre-recorded footage have a little roll up like 10 seconds of neutral face, it helps faceware lock on beter.

It should also work with Analyzer and Retargeter. Probaby even the free PLE version. This is a video pre-process solution and face training solution (FACS system) Live and Analyzer come with preset learning but with Analyzer you can do face specific training so if you record yourself most the time you can train it to your face. You need both Analyzer and Retargeter (Retargeter is where you set up your face data to work on the characters face)

Most people will be happiest with Live Server and an HD webcam. You can have 30 day full working demos of all the software to try before you buy. Also add that ALL facial capture systems are jittery and we have used depth based ones, marker solutions, luminescent paint based ones, as well as video based ones like Faceware. They all require some cleanup. Notice on the upcoming feature list is a Curve Editor and face keying is on it's own separate layers. you can get VERY professional results with this despite what sw0000p says.

As someone who uses Faceware with both MotionBuilder and Maya I can honestly say iClones is better. We have a lead mocap artist on our team who worked on The Jungle Book who was blown away by the demos we have seen. I have worked on over 50 major feature films including being a part of the Oscar winning team on Interstellar and Star Wars: The Force Awakens and I am very excited about iClone 7 and even more excited as to the potential moving forward.

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

Thanks for that Freerange!

No one rush out and buy the full version thinking it will be a solution for iClone though! The version for iClone is a customized version. That was mentioned in the comments on the WIP2 video. Very likely that the full version works fine, it just is not needed if your only going to use it in iClone.

By mtakerkart - 9 Years Ago

Wow! I don't know who you are Freerange but I'm very happy that kind of people working on broadcast field come in the Reallusion forum! :)

But the price range you mention is clearly not the majority of Iclone users ;) because 3000$/year to produce Iclone movie ???
Of course it won't be. As I said , a Inside build plugin is a paid royalty on each plugin sold but export facial for third party app is not
the same buisness.

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

I dont think they are going to make us pay that much for inside iclone. I can see this price if someone is moving it out into one of "them other softwares" LOL but it would make no sense for inside iclone. Myself I am looking forward to a facial mocap and the curve editor only (not a the neuron mocap suit thingy) because for some reason i get a kick out of manually making full body animations but the absence of a curve editor makes it well difficult.

If you look at the price of the perception neuron set up its a good price so I would expect the facial solution to be proportional to that and not anywhere near 2.5k inside iclone :)

By mtakerkart - 9 Years Ago

Don't mix things swoooop. Neuron perception is expensive only because it's Hardware. AND you can use it
in any other app with their Axis app to export in fbx format.No need Iclone at all, No royalty.
The Neuron Iclone plugin price is accessible.
We certainly don't need all the faceware software stuff to make Facial animation in Iclone . Just the plugin and a webcam.
No need to go to a server or whatever..... If it's that this feature will be dead before born.

By hattori kun - 9 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (2/3/2017)

Not from homebrew movies or posting "stories" on youtube. There's no audience for that. The views don't even reach more than 10000 from the most popular Icloners.
There are practical uses for Iclone outside of making homebrew movies. Previz for CG department makes a lot of money. And some clients will pay for animation which can be done in Iclone. So its the pro segment which RL is actually targeting with neuron and faceware.

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

But iClone isn't designed for that -- clearly the pricing and general overall strategy (from putting the emphasis on facial stuff in Crazytalk, something no pro would ever use) is targeted squarely at the home user market, regardless of what that home user will eventually do with it. To put it another way, for RL to devote even a small part of their limited development resources for integration with something as crazy expensive as FW currently is just wouldn't make any sense (they couldn't possibly sell enough of the add-on software to make it worth the development time).

So either they've gone off the deep end or they do have some sort of deal with FW to offer a much cheaper solution. I have to believe this, because they COULD have (and still can) integrate facial mocap with MUCH cheaper solutions (costing less than $100). Perhaps one of the other posters here was right in that somehow the iClone facial stuff won't export, so that FW can still charge their prices for Pros who then would have to use FW in a different environment, but still get some kind of royalty from iClone users. What worries me is the "server" side of this equation: it looks like that's what does the heavy lifting and thus what FW can charge so much for. Perhaps they'll have a special iClone server fee of $300 a year (which might work for many folks, including myself) knowing that this will give them revenue they couldn't possibly get otherwise.

Because this is the final missing piece for iClone becoming huge I want to believe they've considered all this. Again, they just don't have the programmers to offer solutions that won't work for most folks (while you might argue the Neuron mo-cap is also expensive, RL does offer a much cheaper solution for even that, using the Kinect).

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

I think people need to remember that Iclone (the actual iclone piece not the other bits and pieces) is a real time engine very similar to most game engines. They have also said if you have read Peter's posts over time said that they were not trying to make it into something to have a price tag of say an autodesk product and their solutions were going to be different as a result. You can only look at how popular the indigo plugin was to get a sense of how valuable it was to a lot of iclone users. They are also opening up the code to plugins.

If they make the internal iclone solutions too expensive then iclone users wont be using it. They also seem to be aware of it if you read what Peter says over time. I like the perception neuron package I think its cool and considering what it does its a fantastic price. I would think that the iclone solution will be affordable since the mocap suit was incredibly affordable. Anyhow we shall see I guess. If they make their price tag too high they will push users like me onto blender or maya or something so I would think they are aware of that as well.

Anyhow we shall see. There is little point into them making iclone into well one of those their strenght is that they hold a slightly different niche.

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

Yeah not gonna get into one of those "im a pro" arguments. So you think what you want swooop it really has no bearing on actual iclone users which I am. I only know what will happen if they try to turn iclone into something else other then what it is now... which is the gist of this discussion. (I wont be using it anymore because I will be using blender)

If I want my workflow and price tags to resemble "them other softwares" I simply will go use them.

By eternityblue - 9 Years Ago

Yeah, I'll start taking 'pro' users seriously when they display pro quality film, otherwise it is all talk.

Facial mocap is a tool, and if the tool costs too much, few will buy it. I could care less if people use it for previz or sending things to Grandma, I just want a solution that doesn't cost more than iClone itself. I really do hope there is some wonderful arrangement with Faceware, I am fine with limiting output to iClone, but if not, the open API might allow room for competition, I'm really curious to see what gets developed once that is live.

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

I'll say it again. :)

RL is using a customized version of Faceware Live Server. Faceware Live Server is a stand-alone application, not a cloud based service. The plugin is able to use the data stream that FLS streams.

By hattori kun - 9 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (2/4/2017)

It wasn't before, but its getting there. With improvements to Iclone it is becoming a pro tool and with it a higher price tag. And they could potentially make more on that or lose some like indigo plugin which sucked big time. There's no point for hobbyist to buy neuron or facepalm. Its a luxury.
But if you make money out of it the price is probably alright depending on the projects you work on for clients. .
Think about Hitfilm. The pro version basically subsidizes the express version. They're able to provide the express for free because enough users are buying the pro version.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

You are all talking about a facial motion capture solution that has not been released yet. iClone7 has not been released yet, the facial plugin has not been released yet, no price tags have been announced.
So why bother speculating ?

@hattori kun
I try not to compare iClone with well known DCC tools. Whether iClone is used by hobbyists, prosumers, professionals, what counts is its different approach, ergonomy and philosophy. I do not expect to see iClone evolving into a Blender bis, or a 3dsMax bis or worth a Maya bis, and be called a "pro" version of iClone. That would be a complete waste of time. I expect iClone to evolve into iClone, with its specificities, ingenuities, etc.. A different "spirit" than DCC tools.

Regarding hobbyists and neuron I disagree. See how a lot of photography hobbyists do not hesitate to invest in high-end Nikon or Canon cameras and lenses priced way above $1000 or $1500. Being hobbyist does not mean you don't have money. I would not be surprised if some hobbyists would invest in the neuron mocap solution, some already have (fi: mtakerkart).

By Space 3D - 9 Years Ago

Remember about " Speed Tree " .
iClone make " Speed Tree " inside system .

I hope " Face Motion Capture " -----------> inside iClone system like speed tree. ( part of Face iClone Puppet )
I think , this solution for iClone user .

By Space 3D - 9 Years Ago

Microsoft Kinect Camera is Power Tool .
Microsoft support this tool with SDK 1.8 and 2 version.
RL should evaluate and maximize kinect plugin.
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/jj130970.aspx

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/f17a8959-991f-4812-b138-4849.png

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By hattori kun - 9 Years Ago

grabiller (2/6/2017)

Nothing wrong with speculating about price point imo.
Also bad analogy on neurons and cameras. I have lots of friends into photography both professionals and hobbyist. Those kinds of equipment are highly resellable. And easier to make money with than making your own IP animated movies. Good luck making money off self made animated movies. Also a neuron suit or most software have very low resale value, if they even allow selling 2nd hand software license. Its a niche in a niche.

I think you missed the point though. When people complain about the price because Iclone is targetted for a market with people on a budget, that's what I was replying to. Iclone is not just for hobbyists anymore so the price is going up especially for these specialized plugins like facemocap. If someone can't afford it, its a luxury.
RL can earn more money or lose some money with their decision.

By mtakerkart - 9 Years Ago

I think you missed the point though

I think YOU miss the point Hattori. Today buying a camera is completely out of the market one year later.Today I never never never will buy any digital used camera.
May be a panavision or Arriflex with argentique film but this item is clearly not for hobbyist.
May you can sell some old lens and may in your country that's the case for used cameras but What I see here is that you can sell 10 or 20% pourcent the price you paid.
When I said to swoooop that high price of Neuron is du because you have no royalty to pay for a tool usable for any other 3rd software.
It's not the case for Faceware.
My point of vue is that a motion capture systeme is NOT a pro consumer item. Cause mocap is not a comon behavior like filming , shooting, recording audio etc....Not yet.
Hobbyists can use Kinect , it's low price and you have for what you paye.

By Samuraisouru - 9 Years Ago

Every one talk about that, and no body think to crate a basic video tutorial or a simple tutorial for that !!! I porches iclone 7 in special for this reason of facial mocap, because I see on youtube when they introduced iclone 7 , but look like any thing in this world CANT be compatible with iclone in the gfacial mocap subject !!!! Not even faceshift !!! I try in faceshift a daz character figure , and I export that in fbx ifor 3d exchange pipeline !!! The head motion is the same , but the expressions r off totally !!! Even poser or daz studio have some facial mocap software, and works fine , but if you try to export that facial animation together with that character in 3d exchange pipeline, will take only the body animation, but not the facial expressions..... Is a big SHAME for iclone of 2017 ....

By Samuraisouru - 9 Years Ago

The iclone 7 is already on sale , but the facial mocap for it , is a BIG MINUS !!!! Shame for realussion !!!!

By Alasandro - 9 Years Ago

Does anyone have any idea "WHEN" we can expect the facial mocap plugin to be avilable for purchase? We are moving into the month of September and I was under the impression that the facial mocap plugin would be available earlier this summer.

Anybody???

By freerange - 9 Years Ago

Facial Mocap is most likely tied to iClone 7.1 release. So I would not expect it before 7.1 comes out. I think, but not sure, there were footnotes for things like the curve editor and face mocap on the iClone 7 pre-launch pages that indicated they would come after 7 was released. It is definitely there on the current product pages but remember it too from the preview pages.

It is a HUGE update and probably the most significant in the product's history so I expect they are working hard to make sure it isn't a buggy minefield at release.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

silviucaraba23031973 (8/26/2017)

The iclone 7 is already on sale , but the facial mocap for it , is a BIG MINUS !!!! Shame for realussion !!!!

If people would read the announcements instead of starting yelling when something is not to their liking, this forum would be a lot more meaningful and have less noise.

RL has stated from the beginning that not all new features would be available with the first release.

Also, why are we discussing this in the iClone 6 forum?

By Alasandro - 9 Years Ago

Received a response from Reallusion about "when" we can expect to be able to purchase the facial mocap plugin:

"Hi Alasandro, thank you for contacting us. If no delays, then the “Faceware Realtime for iClone” plug-in will be launched at the end of September, 2017. (or earlier)"

YEAH!!!!!!

By Alasandro - 9 Years Ago

Also, why are we discussing this in the iClone 6 forum?

Because there is no Iclone 7 forum?

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

https://forum.reallusion.com/iClone/General

By justaviking - 9 Years Ago

Yeah, it's sort of a weird thing Reallusion does.
They don't number the "current" forum, but then the give it a number after a new version comes out.
It's almost like archiving it.
Why they don't just give it a number to start with is beyond my ability to understand.

"iClone-->General" is always the current release.

Someday when iClone 8 is released "iClone-->General" will be renamed as "iClone-->iClone 7 Forum" and they'll start a fresh "iClone-->General" for iC8.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

Alasandro (8/31/2017)

Also, why are we discussing this in the iClone 6 forum?

Because there is no Iclone 7 forum?

Yes there is; it's here: https://forum.reallusion.com/iClone. The top level forums are always concerned with the latest release of the product.

EDIT: Sorry, Kelley already told you, as did Viking...

BTW, it doesn't bother me, the way RL does it.

By Alasandro - 9 Years Ago

Thanks... I learned something today. :)