[Request] V-Pose Instead Of T-Pose

[Request] V-Pose Instead Of T-Pose

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https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic312227.aspx

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By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

Hi,

This is, I believe, an underestimated subject and an issue to me, but as usual I think it is interesting to discuss this here before a Tracker Request is filled.

It is a 'best practice' kind of subject, not a technical issue per say, but I think CC2.0 should provide a V-Pose instead of a T-Pose as the default pose and the exported pose (fbx/obj), or at least propose the choice between the two kind of poses.

A V-Pose is like a T-Pose except the arms are oriented down by ~45°, the leg are oriented slightly apart (not parallel) and the fingers are not glued one to each other but also form a 'V' in-between each one (and each finger is not straight but slightly curved). There is another Pose called the 'Relaxed Pose', think about a character riding an invisible bike but we do not need to go that far in CC.

V-Pose, for modeling, is considered since a long time as a better practice than T-Pose (for modeling) by most professionals modelers I know. So why CC would not propose the better practice as a default ? Especially to iCloners developers who want to create custom bodies, clothes and accessories ? The V-Pose is far better for modeling, is more "natural" especially at shoulders areas and is a mandatory pose for Gloves modeling albeit a T-Pose can have finger oriented apart too but this is not the case with the CC2.0 default T-Pose, yet the default hand morphology is incorrect, fingers are parallel to each others and separated by almost the same amount of space which is in reality impossible, but that's another issue.

T-Pose should be considered as a 'technical' pose required by some tools and game engines doing auto-binding/skinning. V-Pose should be considered as an 'artistic' pose when it comes to modeling the actual character or accessories including clothes, and even to create custom morphs.

As CC2.0 allows us to export and re-import obj/fbx so we can create our own clothes, hairs, gloves, accessories, etc.. I suggest that CC2.0 offers at least the choice to export those obj/fbx with a V-Pose instead of the T-Pose, if not the V-Pose by default.

This would be artistically more convenient for modeling/sculpting purposes.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

I just realized/remembered this V-Pose I'm talking about actually exist - kind of - in iClone, in the Animation Template -> Motion -> 00_Pose folder and is called "0_Y-Pose".

This is what we need in CC2.0, except with the legs slightly apart (feet should be spaced by the length of one foot at least) and the fingers slightly curved, not so straight.

By Delerna - 9 Years Ago

I will second that request.
I find modelling clothing around the shoulders to be very frustrating i with a character set in T pose.

Well, not so much modelling the clothes. Its when i bring the character into iclone for animation, thats when it gets frustrating.
Trying to get loose sleeves, shoulder capes, etc to come down correctly with the arms from the T-pose to actual arm positions is very hard.....at least, it is for me. I have tried exporting the character as fbx with a non T pose so i could create the clothing with the character in a more natural pose but it gets exported in the T pose anyway.

I wish for this request

By Delerna - 9 Years Ago

My desire is to create clothes morphs accessories etc etc that are completely useable in CC for iclone users (including myself) who have the desire to create video's with iclone and have little to no desire of becomming expert 3D modellers.
CC is a great tool that gives people the ability to design their own characters without having to become expert 3D modellers and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are other people who can 3D model but still use CC for the time saving abilities it provides.

As far as i am aware, if i go modifying the bones or the characters meshes like that then it will no longer be useable in CC.........Pooof, my desire is gone.

So, i will still second this request if and when the tracker request is raised

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

You can re-pose the skeleton any way you want and save it as the default (rest) pose. Just remember to set the default back to a T-pose before exporting your FBX for CC.

You can also distort the skeleton in all kinds of ways. Just don't re-name or change bone order.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
I believe you don't get it either, it is not a mesh deformation fix problem, it is a convenience for artistic modeling and sculpting. Scripting bones is a technical step that has nothing to do with the request, that's why I said T-Pose is a technical pose and V-Pose an artistic pose.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

rampa (1/13/2017)

You can re-pose the skeleton any way you want and save it as the default (rest) pose. Just remember to set the default back to a T-pose before exporting your FBX for CC.
You can also distort the skeleton in all kinds of ways. Just don't re-name or change bone order.

How ? If you edit the pose from the Edit -> Edit Pose (N) and click "Set as Default", CC will still export a T-Pose.

By Delerna - 9 Years Ago

Thanks Rampa. I will look into that. Dont know why i didnt think of it from that angle. Posing it it Blender Mind stuck on a path i guess.

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

grabiller (1/13/2017)

rampa (1/13/2017)

You can re-pose the skeleton any way you want and save it as the default (rest) pose. Just remember to set the default back to a T-pose before exporting your FBX for CC.
You can also distort the skeleton in all kinds of ways. Just don't re-name or change bone order.

How ? If you edit the pose from the Edit -> Edit Pose (N) and click "Set as Default", CC will still export a T-Pose.

Sorry. I wasn't very clear. :blush:
I know Delerna is a Blender user, so I meant to say change the rest pose in your external editor. In Blender it's a couple of steps, but easy enough to do.

By CtrlZ - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/13/2017)

Delerna (1/13/2017)

I prefer the TPose... for 2 reasons:

1. That problem are you guys express....."mesh deformation problems."
Reallusion has given you the tools to "fix it".... use it. :pinch:

"I add Roll Bone(s) and adjust the "Vertices" of the Shoulder and UpperArm to transform properly."
Result: Arm raised 90 degrees.... Perfect Mesh look.... whether its Cloth, Armour, etc., etc.

2. Scripting bones is far easier when they are at 90 degree angles.
Example:
Creating an "Auto Clavicle" where... when the arm is raised (to its highest point)...
the clalvice follows it upward (ONLY 30 to 40 degrees) "Realistic clavicle movement!:rolleyes:
___________________________________________________________________
Real problem is most iClone users have little to no modeling experience.
...so used to CC scaling mesh's for them.

It's EZ... <Soft-Select a few vertiecs).... slight movement...
Poof!:)

lol swOOOOOp:
I have to tell you I enjoy your post mostly because they make me laugh and I have to admit I have gleamed some good information from a very small sample!
You are absolutely right most iClone users have no 3D skills! Most just want to make movies. Some actually make money with it!
I'm a Butcher by trade (an old dog trying to learn new tricks) I want to make movies and leaning a few 3D skills (with Blender) can help me obtain some of the assets I need to make that happen.

You are VERY intelligent but I can walk a steer out of your back yard and have it on your dinner table by supper time. I'm not going to brow beat you for buying your steak at a meat market or a fine restaurant lol no I need you because that is how I make my living!

I guess what I'm saying is any information I can obtain from you will be greatly appreciated and if you need any information on how to process a deer I'm your man just ask!

CtrlZ aka Gary

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/13/2017)

../..In this case:
~ TPose
~ VPose
~ Relaxed Pose
(None of them are Right or Wrong).... it's a matter of preference.
Yes, it's far easier to model in (V) posture.
but....
Most modeling / animation and Game Engines.... prefer (TPose).

Come on sw00000p, you are smarter than that.

Modeling in V-Pose does not mean you won't provide a T-Pose to a Game Engine.

Those 2 poses are not antagonists, one is better for modeling/sculpting, the other one is mandatory (note I didn't say 'better' here, it is just a legacy 'obligation') for certain tools. That's it.

What's 'Right' is to have access to both poses instead of T-Pose only, hence the request.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
You are not constructive enough here, you don't give solid arguments why having the ability to export V-Poses would be a mistake or a bad thing or even counter-productive.
Doing beta testing is not only for discovering bugs or issues but also to suggest good practice workflows, propose more efficient technologies, etc..

Delema find it frustrating to model with T-Pose and he is right and as I said, most professionals modelers I know never use T-Pose for modeling for a reason.

You don't do much modeling/sculpting, fine, you have access to zillions of external 3d DCC tools, that's fine too. So what do you care having V-Pose ?
Will it ruin your daily work with CC ? No because you won't use it. Fine too.

So stop thinking from your high ground and start thinking for the new users and for the hobbyists too.
If they are invited to follow good practice workflows then they will probably better enjoy the experience and commit less mistakes.
Advanced users and professionals will benefit from that too: less time wasted at finding workarounds, and a better sense of simplicity which iClone is all about after all, compared to well known DCC tools.

By CtrlZ - 9 Years Ago

sWOOOOOp Say's (Why bother RL with such simplicity. Let RL finish the new motion graph editor and the api.) If it is that simple sounds like it could be done easily and would not even involve the TEAM working on the motion graph editor!
sWOOOOOp do you even have cc2 beta, maybe you do?
RL is asking us (the USER), for our wish list and suggestions. Delerna, grabiller and other iClone 7 purchasers are simply fulfilling their request!

This portion of the forum is for us!

If you do not have early access to cc2 beta your suggestions aren't really needed here don't you agree?

It's a free forum so in reality you can do whatever you want and I do believe you have value to the community at large!

OK back on topic! I have limited skills but I would also find it useful to have an alternative pose and have actually tried to export in a v pose so If it's as easy as sWOOOOOp say's it is sounds like a reasonable request!

CtrlZ

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

You can apply custom iMotion poses in CC to use for calibration, which can be further edited in CC. All that's needed is an option to export the character with the currently applied calibration pose instead of the T-pose.

By freerange - 9 Years Ago

I agree, there should be an V-Pose export option. You can create a pose and attach it as motion on export with a FBX but why not just include it since it is a much better way to do clothing with characters. There is certainly no harm in adding the option.

By luke (RL) - 9 Years Ago

dear developers,
how about export V-pose in frame -1 and T-pose in frame 1? Is it help ?

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

waveact (1/24/2017)

dear developers,
how about export V-pose in frame -1 and T-pose in frame 1? Is it help ?

That would do for me, yes.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

waveact (1/24/2017)

dear developers,
how about export V-pose in frame -1 and T-pose in frame 1? Is it help ?

Shouldn't that be frame 2 for the T-pose...:unsure:

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/24/2017)

animagic (1/24/2017)

waveact (1/24/2017)

dear developers,
how about export V-pose in frame -1 and T-pose in frame 1? Is it help ?

Shouldn't that be frame 2 for the T-pose...:unsure:

Using (-1) is a viable solution, because when loaded...3dxch / CC / iClone...
doesn't support negative frames, therefore... it will show TPose.

Ooops, I missed the minus sign...:blush:

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/24/2017)

Please allow Reallusion to focus on the "complicated... long-awaited" tools.
~ Motion Graph Editor
~ Facial Mocap
~ API
"Are you too lazy to rotate the arms (45 degrees) to model, then export it in (TPose)?"
(VPose) Pure waste of (Reallusion's) time. :pinch::pinch:

Please allow other users to do what they want and don't try to make them do or think what you think is right from your biased point of view especially on things you don't understand or practice every day on your own.

[switching to sw00000p mode]:
- Motion Graph Editor ?
What ? Are you too lazy to bring your animations into Motion Builder and use state of the art motion curve editor there ??
- Facial Mocap
Why don't you use existing solution ?
- API
Why would you customize iClone when you have access to all the other state of the art DCC tools out there ?

[switching to 'normal' mode]
See how silly your comments can be ?

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
Then why do you complain about other's requests, especially those for THEM TO ACTUALLY USE ?
Plz do not interfere anymore with other's requests if it is not to give constructive comments, ideas or suggestions.
ps: I think rampa is wise and mature enough to handle his own needs and requests.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/25/2017)

grabiller (1/25/2017)

I'm not complaining. I'm stating that when you continuously add to Reallusion's (To-Do List) with minor functionality...
Like (VPose).... is a waste of time.

Let RL complete what has been needed for years.
Don't slow them down.

First, you don't tell me what I have to do or not.
Second, adding V-Pose is certainly not a waste of time.
Third, the Reallusion team is smart enough to handle priorities.
And if they are willing to fix 'minor' issues and add 'minor' suggestions it is because they have estimated it is worthy.
'Minor' functionalities are often the details that make your daily work painful or comfortable, and ultimately these often make all the difference in terms of productivity and efficiency.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/25/2017)

grabiller (1/25/2017)

...I think rampa is wise and mature enough to handle his own needs and requests.

rampa is very sharp. All he needs is the Tool. He will teach you a thing or 10 when ic7 is finished.
Mark my words.;)

Everyone can teach things to everyone, even newcomers or hobbyists can teach things to veterans or professionals.
We don't need your "revelations" to understand and be aware of that.
Really I didn't realized before how stupid you consider peoples on this forum are!

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
Leave rampa alone lol, he did nothing wrong, you are just hiding behind him to give yourself some kind of credibility. It does not work with me.
Anyway, this is going nowhere, you are right, people like you, I don't get it.
So don't try too hard wasting your time with me.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
Good for him. We all have dreams.

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
Indeed.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

Guy, this is a recurring theme: we're not worthy...:doze: Fortunately for us, RL has a much broader view...:w00t:

By GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS - 9 Years Ago

@animagic
Fortunately ^^