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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Alright. It's time to get it out there. I purchased iClone and the whole bundle for 600$ looking at the promotions and the trailers. 3DXchange was advertised as this big bridge between iClone and any 3D program out there. I thought I could import and export any model in and out of 3DXchange to ANY 3D program. I bought iClone with the intention of making quick characters for my game, be it the main character or an NPC. Let's be clear, my intention was never to find the perfect model right out of character creator or get the perfect set of morph shapes handed to me by iClone. My goal was simply to have fully customizable characters generated by the character creator which I could then use 3DXchange to export, make modifications like change poly count, decimate for NPC characters etc.
Now comes the part where my hopes have been shattered and my money has been burnt. So, being an indie developer myself and unable to afford a Maya license which costs a whopping 4.500$, I have been using BLENDER for quite some time now learning sculpting, retopology and all the intermediate stuff. Here is the biggest problem that I faced. I exported a basic character that looks like this from CC through iClone to 3dXchange:
Imported this in blender with different 3dXchange export configs and different blender import configs(I tried them all, brute forcing every single combination). The best result I got was this:
Observe the scene objects and how they do not have a parent.
Looks at the hands and the breast area. Also, notice the boots.
Now, one theory was that all of this looked bad just in blender. So, I exported this imported fbx from blender, opened the exported fbx in 3dXchange to get this weird result:
I tried every export configuration in blender for fbx and all of them resulted in the same mess.
So, now tell me if this software should even be sold at any price? The sole purpose of 3dxchange is maintaining compatibility with other 3D programs and there aren't many of them on the market, just about 6-7 programmes. So, why does this half broken crap of a software exist? I request the reallusion team to take a hard look at their bundle and think if they are really doing their best.
P.S. If anyone has a workaround for the 3dXchange to blender pipeline, do post it as an answer.
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By Rampa - 9 Years Ago
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From the image of the FBX import, it looks like your using an older version of Blender. You need 2.77a. Earlier versions cannot handle the FBX import/export correctly for RL products. Blender's FBX was improved for the 2.77 release.
Regarding the invisible face, check the material settings. Sometimes materials import with an opacity setting of zero. Make sure the head material has an opacity of 100%.
EDIT:
OK. I just tested the different options. Looks like a bug! If you export your FBX directly from Character Creator it will work, but 3DX is exporting a bunch of nulls, or combination of nulls and bones, that is a mess in Blender.
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Hi Rampa. I am using the latest version of blender as its installed through steam and auto updates. I have just changed the theme.
I realised now that the head and pant must be set to opacity of 0 since poly count is same as before. Still, this doesn't solve my problem The reexport has changed the body shape especially in the boot, chest and arm region(the same issue present in blender)
I want to add face polys to improve the face morphs and get a more realistic expression. I modified the existing morphs to get the maximum out of the poly count. 3dxchange must have the option to have different sets of poly count for its characters. It has an option to export to unity but reallusion didn't think of the practicality of it. Every PC game must have characters in different LODs and this tool makes it impossible to do that. Someone at the product management level is being lazy and just working for a paycheck.
Edit: Didn't see your edit. I tried that too. Saw your tutorials on export to blender from CC and I was thrilled that reallusion had finally fixed it. I exported the mesh from CC and imported into blender as per your video. I didn't want to do clothing. So, I selected a face loop around the eyes(I know they have been triangulated, I manually selected them) and subdivided them. I checked if corresponding uv , vertex groups had been updated and it was all done automatically. I exported from blender (as instructed in your video)
Now, comes the part where I imported it into CC. I imported ....aaand...... failed to load. I don't know how I am still sane using this software.
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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I don't know why I am replying here. Doesn't look like reallusion team is even bothered to ackowledge these issues. However, if anyone is reading this, perhaps they can help me out. It is a work forward in terms of exporting from blender.
So, remember the best result I had got with one of the export options from 3dxchange in blender. I modified that to make a neat mesh with proper alignment. I got this as a result:
Notice the boots, chest and shoulders have been corrected. Also, observe that the shape keys are present.
Now, I imported that to 3dx. To my surprise, all looked fine.
Looks beautiful, doesn't it? But wait, there's more...
All the morphs are gone! So, I figured blender must have not exported them correctly. So, I went ahead and imported this exact fbx, that was exported out of blender, back into blender. The shape keys were present there. So, one more major bug in 3dxchange where it's unable to read the shape keys already present in the fbx file.
Conclusion: 3dx is more crappy than I imagined.
In the next episode, I will be exporting morphs one by one out of blender as OBJs and adding it to the morph list.
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By vidi - 9 Years Ago
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Conclusion: 3dx is more crappy than I imagined Absolutly no !!! It works for any rigged biped , But if you use 3Dxchange for a CC Character you loose the CC Functionality . Therefore use CC Export like Pampa describe. Also you can not increase Polycount for Morphing , because you change the vertex order
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By animagic - 9 Years Ago
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gogstudios (9/4/2016)
I don't know why I am replying here. Doesn't look like reallusion team is even bothered to ackowledge these issues.
It's the weekend, and I think even RL employees have a right to some life outside of work. There are knowledgeable members who are willing to assist, if you let them.
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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@vidi
Just to be clear, I know that CC functionality cannot be used after the vertex order has been changed(I have read every single post pertaining to this on this forum). All I want is to add few polys to the face AFTER the character has been created in CC. 3dx is so painful to use with blender. Have you even tried using it with blender? A cross compatibility tool that's meant to be compatible and work OUT OF THE BOX with all the popular modelling programs. It's not like 3dx is new. It's in its 6th version! Forget adding polys, I am even struggling with a simple export out of 3dx to blender, not modify a single thing in blender, re export as fbx out of blender and back to 3dx only to find the model screwed up.
What I am doing is trying my best to somehow establish a workflow between blender and 3dx given its obvious major flaws. I do not wish to pay 600$ and still struggle with this. I would have rather used make human and been a lot less frustrated despite it's inferior model quality.
@animagic
Fair enough. I will wait for monday for a reply from RL team member.
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By vidi - 9 Years Ago
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Just to be clear, I know that CC functionality cannot be used after the vertex order has been changed(I have read every single post pertaining to this on this forum).
All I want is to add few polys to the face AFTER the character has been created in CC..
But that will changing the vertex order and you wrote also
I manually selected them) and subdivided them. I checked if corresponding uv , vertex groups had been updated and it was all done automatically. I exported from blender (as instructed in your video)
Now, comes the part where I imported it into CC. I imported ....aaand...... failed to load.
Because it can not work if you add more vertieces, that is breaks the vertex order
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Hi Vidi. The vertex order CANNOT be changed only in these cases
1. If I want to re-import the character back into CC.
2. If I want to modify individual morphs in 3dXchange.
3. If I want to use 'Replace mesh' in 3dxchange.
Just to be clear, this is what I am attempting:
1. Create character in CC and save as .iavatar
2. Open iavatar in 3dxchange and export as fbx
Once anything is exported out as FBX, it can be modified in any way as long as I am not breaking the morphs or the rig or the UVs. If I modify the vertices, 3dxchange will import it as though it has been created in another program.
So, I click on 'convert to non standard character' in 3dxchange, map the bones to the layout. and click on 'apply to iclone', This should work even if I turn the character into a little ball. So, the vertex order is not the issue in my case. I hope I am being clear enough.
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By Rampa - 9 Years Ago
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To be compatible with the existing CC morphs, the face count and vertex order cannot be changed. The shape can be changed. That is how morphs are made, after all.
If you import an FBX exported from CC into 3DX, it will ask you if you want automatic mapping. If you say yes, you get all the morphs applied, but it is a non-standard avatar. If you make any changes to the mesh or skeleton beyond re-shaping, it will not ask you. If that is the case, you can still import it and convert it manually.
You can also use Makehuman, MB Lab, Fuse, or whatever to make non-standard avatars. You will need to create your own morphs with third party models. I'm pretty sure Fuse has a morph pack you can download with a character from there site.
A wide range of morphs can be assigned in 3DX for muscles and visemes.
CC is just the latest avatar option RL has made available.
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By vidi - 9 Years Ago
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Hi Vidi. The vertex order CANNOT be changed only in these cases
but in this case
1.All I want is to add few polys to the face AFTER the character has been created in CC...
2. I manually selected them) and subdivided them
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Hi Rampa. What I love about CC is that it creates pretty good quality characters which is sufficient for my needs. This is why I bought the software in the first place. Then I realised iclone is pretty awesome too for animation blending for mocap and facial animation data. What I was not aware was about the step child reallusion has called 3dxchange.
That being said, I think I am close to figuring out a process for importing blender fbx in 3dx. However, I noticed one more bug with 3dxchange. The UI wont let me map the left hand as its out of the layout. Here is the pic. Notice the right most part of the image where the hand is out of the frame. I have no way to reach it.
Must be a bug in the latest update. I think I have to downgrade 3dx for now and continue with my experimentation.
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By justaviking - 9 Years Ago
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gogstudios (9/4/2016)
@animagic
Fair enough. I will wait for monday for a reply from RL team member.
Also please keep in mind that Reallusion monitors these forums, but they are not a replacement for contacting "Support" directly. If you are indeed encountering a bug, contacting Support will be your best option if you're not getting it resolved here.
Good luck. :)
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Hi Vidi.
1.All I want is to add few polys to the face AFTER the character has been created in CC...
but I mentioned
Let's be clear, my intention was never to find the perfect model right out of character creator or get the perfect set of morph shapes handed to me by iClone. My goal was simply to have fully customizable characters generated by the character creator which I could then use 3DXchange to export, make modifications like change poly count, decimate for NPC characters etc.
Also,
Just to be clear, I know that CC functionality cannot be used after the vertex order has been changed(I have read every single post pertaining to this on this forum). All I want is to add few polys to the face AFTER the character has been created in CC.
and..
Once anything is exported out as FBX, it can be modified in any way as long as I am not breaking the morphs or the rig or the UVs. If I modify the vertices, 3dxchange will import it as though it has been created in another program.So, I click on 'convert to non standard character' in 3dxchange, map the bones to the layout. and click on 'apply to iclone'
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Hi justaviking. I will do that tomorrow. I think I am close getting it to work. If I am unable to do so, I will contact them i.e. if I don't get a reply here.
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By vidi - 9 Years Ago
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However In context, you write it contradictory for me. Why subdivide and add points and and you wonder yourself the import to CC does not work ? :Whistling:
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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I never mentioned that I wanted to import into CC. I wanted to import to iclone through 3dx. You can read through every single message to verify that.
I did however try to import to cc too , to see if reallusion had changed something in the latest update. This had been appended to one of the replies to rampa.
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Finally! I got this thing to work! *Patting my own back*
First of all, I couldn't achieve it through blender but I did achieve it with Maya. I know Maya is expensive but MayaLT will do the job too(35$ a month, quite reasonable).
What I was trying to achieve:
Modify poly count for characters created in CC in an external program(preferably blender but that wasn't possible due to 3dx bug). Then import this modified FBX into 3dx and convert it into a character.
How this is helpful:
1. Making game character with different LODs(level of detail).
2. Make mobile ready characters by reducing vertex counts through decimation or other techniques.
3. Modify face morphs to make more realistic face expression.(Higher vertex counts in the face will help model the minute details like wrinkles etc.)
These things won't be useful if they can't be used inside iclone to drive facial and body animation.
Steps:
1. Export from 3dxchange in FBX format with the preset "Maya_win32-bit_Optimized". Basically, delete source morph shapes should be enabled. I am not sure how much the other options affect the next steps.
2. Import FBX into Maya with the options camera and lights unchecked and Animation checked.
3. Go to face select mode and select the faces near the eye or wherever you want. Click on add divisions and make sure mode is set to triangles(not quads).
4. Go to edit->delete all by type->non deformer history and click on it.
5. Click export all, select FBX under type and uncheck camera and lights and check animation.
6. Import this into 3dxchange. It will automatically ask if you want to convert it into a character. Click yes and you are done.
In another example you could remove vertices as opposed to adding them in this example. Here is a crappy quick morph modification I did for my new mesh in under 2 minutes. This wouldn't have been possible with the low poly count around the eyes in the default CC model.
I will be posting an in depth facial morph modification with realistic wrinkles in a few days.
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By Peter (RL) - 9 Years Ago
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gogstudios (9/4/2016)
I don't know why I am replying here. Doesn't look like reallusion team is even bothered to ackowledge these issues. However, if anyone is reading this, perhaps they can help me out. It is a work forward in terms of exporting from blender.
Hi.. As others have mentioned, the forum is intended for user to user discussion. It is monitored but if you require Technical Support you should use the support form below. Please don't post support requests here as you may not receive a reply. If you use the support form you will normally receive a reply within 48 hours during weekdays. Thanks.
http://www.reallusion.com/CustomerSupport/UserEx/QForm.aspx
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Hi Swoop. I didn't know this was used by others. My first problem was that I couldn't find any answer to polycount issues raised by others. Reallusion has never addressed this major concern in an official tutorial. Hence, I went through the pain of finding out. Also, compatibility with blender is 0 so that delayed it by a lot.
By wrinkles, I mean wrinkles only when the character winks. Not always. I tried to do this with substance approach. I modeled a quick sbsar which generated wrinkles but iclone doesn't bake these substance animation. So, the only other option was to change poly count.
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By Blazoneer - 9 Years Ago
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Wow--this forum is a gold mine for iClone and 3D Exchange problems. I'm pre-shopping, so this is saving me money. For $600, Blender compatibility and other 3rd party-program compatibility should be a given--it's the core feature of this suite.
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By animagic - 9 Years Ago
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Blazoneer (11/18/2016)
Wow--this forum is a gold mine for iClone and 3D Exchange problems. I'm pre-shopping, so this is saving me money. For $600, Blender compatibility and other 3rd party-program compatibility should be a given--it's the core feature of this suite.
You can't blame 3DXchange for poorly implemented FBX functionality of other software. DAZ FBX import doesn't work although export seems to be finally fixed. Also, since FBX is Autodesk proprietary and Blender is Open Source, there are philosophical conflicts...:unsure:
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By Mr_Squarepeg - 9 Years Ago
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Hey Sw000p -
So I use Unreal Engine and Blender frequently. That said - I am very much in tune with blender community and it's development.
Calling the Blender .FBX Exporter crap is very short sighted and disrespectful.They literally had to remake the FBX api for blender because Autodesk does not like the blender foundation and Blender. Plain and simple. There was a time where the blender devs were ready to give up on the .FBX format. Keep in mind that Autodesk does not cooperate with the Blender Foundation.
Autodesk is in the business of making money. When a competing product comes up and is offered for free and open source.
This case Blender you bet Autodesk is going to do everything in their power to prevent that tool from taking off. Same with preventing them from using their file formats.
The blender devs are some of the best in the space when it comes 3D modeling apps, computer graphics, etc.
Personally speaking I just wish that Alias continued to develop Maya opposed to Autodesk. Same goes for the Developers behind 3DS max and XSI.
Because if Autodesk ever goes under which is a possibility considering they have laid off 10% of staff in favor of cloud based solutions.
Allot of people are SOL and will be looking for a new 3D package. Meanwhile I see Blender getting ready to crank things up to 11 with their 2.8 update.
As for 3DXchange I do not like it. Paying for the ability to export is just silly. Especially in this day and age when export licenses exist. I do not know just me tho.
sw00000p (11/24/2016)
animagic (11/23/2016)
...FBX is Autodesk proprietary and Blender is Open Source, there are philosophical conflicts...:unsure:I won't "Sugar Coat" it... Autodesk has a long history of gobbling up the BEST...software, tools, algorithms and more. ~ Autodesk FBX.... Copyright and Production Proven (World Wide) ~ Blender's FBX.... chitty code If Blender programmers COULD create their FBX code to run as smooth as Autodesk's fbx does...
THEY WOULD....but they can NOT! :crying:_______________________________________________________________________________________ 3dxchange works as advertised!
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By animagic - 9 Years Ago
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@HeadClot: When I mentioned philosophical differences that is what I meant. Open Source requires the source code of the software to be available to all for inspection. A lofty goal, but you can't blame Autodesk for not participating in that. There are other proprietary interfaces that have widespread use and that is where Open Source software is in a bind. This is just an observation, but it is a reality.
As to 3DXchange, it is much more than just an exporter. It is valuable for those who know how to use it.
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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As for 3DXchange I do not like it. Paying for the ability to export is just silly. Especially in this day and age when export licenses exist. I do not know just me tho. Welcome to BigDaddy RL's HOUSE! The truth is, "What BigDaddy RL says it its!" :P
Well then BigDaddy RL better prepare for a sales dip.
When the bridge software between proprietary iclone format and external software does not support 1 out of 4 softwares it is supposed to bridge, you cannot exactly call it a bridge. Of course blender has implemented maybe in a poor way, isn't that why bridge softwares like 3dxhange exist: To make sure they are compatible no matter how the other software like blender has implemented.
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By Rampa - 9 Years Ago
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RL works pretty closely with Autodesk, I believe. You can be assured that they are using the "authentic" stuff. Blender FBX was crap until 2.77, so if your using an older version of Blender, it has a higher likelihood of failure.
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By eternityblue - 9 Years Ago
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It should be noted Blender is not wholly incompatible with iClone, it is still incredibly useful even if the scenario mentioned here doesn't work well. Regarding 3DXchange, I see it this way, which benefits people on meager budgets like myself: I got to buy the whole app in stages. I see it as a suite, and you can get the starter package or get the whole bundle. With other 3d apps costing a lot more than the cumulative cost of the suite, I can't complain. And iClone it pretty ideal regarding complexity vs. functionality for me. I do wish you didn't need to bounce between the three apps plus CT8 for the face mapping, but after working in software QA I do see the wisdom in it: the development of the components, though related, are not pearls on the same string, and if an issue arises in one technology, it won't necessarily break something in another app. Now that 3DXchange 7 is on the way, I would love to hear what changes we'll see in that. I'm disabled and often any work on the computer is tedious, so any more streamlining of the conversion process they can achieve the better. I just preordered, so hopefully a build will be in my hands before too long :)
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Do you see the logical flaw in your statement? If 3dx doesn't support blender, then of course no one will be using blender + iclone to make a living. They would switch over to Maya because they have no other choice. If blender was supported, you would see the blender pros using it.
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By gogstudios - 9 Years Ago
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Your unfounded bias towards maya is clouding your logic. Good luck using Maya. I will stick to blender.
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By eternityblue - 9 Years Ago
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I'm wondering if anyone has had better luck exporting from Blender to .3DS then 3DXchange. I am clueless of the issues with doing that though.
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By Rampa - 9 Years Ago
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Blender FBX export of boned skinned models works quite well. Myself, and others, have used it quite successfully for making clothing to be imported into CC, and for characters imported into 3DX.
Don't get misled by the cynicism of non-iClone users! ;)
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By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago
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rampa (11/24/2016)
Blender FBX export of boned skinned models works quite well. Myself, and others, have used it quite successfully for making clothing to be imported into CC, and for characters imported into 3DX.
Don't get misled by the cynicism of non-iClone users! ;)
...as a software holic I can say that I have not have had all these huge issues .. it seems to work for me i press the buttons and it goes..
I am not a huge user of the CC cause I like to make wierd things, but I did play with it and it worked.. I love the 3dexchange its the cats meow.
sincerely,
ultimate blender and 3dx fanperson
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By animagic - 9 Years Ago
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There are people who make money with iClone. (Now wait and see. I won't say nothing.)
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