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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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Here we go again, RL and their continuous persistence on treating paying customers like thieves.
I updated to the latest versions of IC, CC and 3DX tried to open a character I created in CC and exported numerous times to IC in the past and got an instant nag screen. Tried the 1 click validation and waited 20 minutes on a 100 MB connection which accomplished nothing. Now I can't even export my characters to IC PERIOD!
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Peter provided a solution - a reinstall and overwrite removed the watermark and DRM issues
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By Eric (RL) - 8 Years Ago
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Hello VirtualMedia!
Terribly sorry about the inconvenience, we wish to resolve this as soon as possible. If able, can you please upload a copy of your project file to me, as well as the account name for your member email address.
Please send it to me via pm over the forum and I will see to it with our internal development team.
That being said, our intent was definitely not treating people like thieves, but rather protect the hard work our developer have toiled over in order to build a strong content community that everyone can enjoy. Hope you can understand from our point of view, Thank you!
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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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Eric, I appreciate you taking the time to address this personally. I tried to upload a CC 20.2 MB rar file, I received an error saying file was to large.
With regards to content developers I respectfully ask that a DRM system be put into place that respects the time and patience of the clients as well. I travel frequently and use a laptop with licensed RL products. During these times an internet connection may not be available and often find myself in a position were I can't export a CC character directly to IC without watermarks all over the character.
Please consider how frustrating that would be.
I would suggest a one time content validation on a licensed machine for direct export / imports between RL products, I find content validation between CC and IC for the same content every time a bit extreme.
Thanks you for your time and please let me know how I can send you copy of the 20.2 MB Character rar file
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By Cricky - 8 Years Ago
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I just went through the "One Click Content Validation Process"
This is just the Plain Based, but they all do it!!!
and I still get this on every Item I try to use... even though it appears on the character...
BUG
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By Peter (RL) - 8 Years Ago
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Sorry to hear of the DRM problems.
If you are seeing the Validate DRM window, please try closing the window down and then attempt to load the CC character again. If you have an active internet connection you should find the character will load without the Validate DRM window appearing again and the character can then be sent to iClone 6.
If you do continue to see the Validate DRM window, then you can reinstall the CC Essentials bundle which should resolve the problem. Note you may still need to repeat the first step one more time before the issue is fully resolved.
Please do let us know if this helps.
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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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Peter (RL) (2/2/2016)
Sorry to hear of the DRM problems.
If you are seeing the Validate DRM window, please try closing the window down and then attempt to load the CC character again. If you have an active internet connection you should find the character will load without the Validate DRM window appearing again and the character can then be sent to iClone 6.
If you do continue to see the Validate DRM window, then you can reinstall the CC Essentials bundle which should resolve the problem. Note you may still need to repeat the first step one more time before the issue is fully resolved.
Please do let us know if this helps.
Peter to the rescue again! Did reinstall with overwrite - problem solved!
I'm developing a reputation for being hostile about DRM issues and that bothers me. I've purchased many pipeline and pro versions of RL's programs, I'm a long time loyal customer and not a thief.
I realize RL needs to protect there intellectual property but at what expense? Running a security check every time we send a licensed and validated file from a licensed and validated RL program directly to another licensed and validated RL program? That's overkill by any standard, imagine the outrage if Adobe did this every time someone tried to send a PS file to Premiere.
</rant_over>
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By rampart - 8 Years Ago
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I thought the CC was a tool for us to develop our own unique characters free from DRM or any type of copyright restrictions (unless any copyrights might apply to our own unique characters)
Copyriight license is not required is my understanding, but I don't often read enough of the fine print.
It is possible with all the unique abilities by using CC pre-sets to produce some very unique characters.
That is unless there is some underlying code buried in the CC tools to prevent commercial usage of characters, if created using RL CC.
I would appreciate to know the exact position of Reallusion on this matter for copyright purposes.
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By Peter (RL) - 8 Years Ago
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rampart (2/3/2016)
I thought the CC was a tool for us to develop our own unique characters free from DRM or any type of copyright restrictions (unless any copyrights might apply to our own unique characters)
Copyriight license is not required is my understanding, but I don't often read enough of the fine print.
It is possible with all the unique abilities by using CC pre-sets to produce some very unique characters.
That is unless there is some underlying code buried in the CC tools to prevent commercial usage of characters, if created using RL CC.
I would appreciate to know the exact position of Reallusion on this matter for copyright purposes.
The content that comes with the FREE version of Character Creator isn't DRM protected but the CC Essentials Bundle and the other new add-on packs are. This is to prevent the content being shared freely in user created characters. As things stand now if you share a character which has content from a DRM pack, then the receiving user will get a watermark unless they already own the DRM protected content.
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By rampart - 8 Years Ago
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Peter,
I am not interested to produce content to resale. My interest is to produce characters I can use in my videos. If I create a character with clothing and use it in my videos I don't want people to be able to copyright or take some of my characters and use them. I can understand the DRM bit if you produce characters or content that uses base content created by someone else and you sell the characters or content. Using the content in videos, I would think is a different usage.
What if you were fortunate enough to develop another southpark, or similar cartoon syndication. I think it would be important to know before you got involved in such a project to assure protection of your characters, and content before starting out. If that is not possible with RL applications it would be a good thing to know first.
I recently bought 3dcoat. I think I can make CC characters unique enough with some edits in 3dcoat.
I need to clothe the characters of course
My understanding...RL plans to release tools that will allow us to create our own clothing and clothing bases in the near future.
Is this true? If true, any idea for release date?
Up to now I have not produced videos commercially. I have been producing videos now for about 4 years. I am experienced enough to take on some commercial projects.
I am involved with some who are interested to do a few commercial videos. They want unique characters for their proprietary usage only.
My principal interest in IClone has always been production of videos, which is why I have purchased so much content from RL.
It has never been an issue of copyright, because everything I produced was just Indie work.
The release of the CC appeared to me, to have opened IClone for unique character production
I presumed these tools would further allow freedom from copyright restrictions when we produce commercial videos with the characters after editing them to have unique appearance.
I would appreciate to know just what I can or cannot do
Will the RL CC be a finalized tool that will allow us to create characters with clothing so we can produce copyright characters, if we need them?
I started to buy the tokomotion this morning, but I really thought I need to get an answer about this. The thing that registered with me is the ability to create my own sliders, which in effect means I have the ability to make unique differences in characters. I I created a half dozen sliders or more for edits it would seem to me the CC would not be a problem creating unique characters. I guess until we get the ability to create our own clothing bases and clothing would be the only DRM or possible copyright issues.
I'm loving the CC so I'm sure hoping this works out.
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By wendyluvscatz - 8 Years Ago
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Since you have 3D coat, you can sculpt and paint body parts to resmble clothes too and use displacement maps, extra bits like cuffs, sleeves, skirts, capes can be attached as accessories and cloth weighted with physX
CC will even load them if named with the character creator accessory extension and put in the custom folder.
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By wendyluvscatz - 8 Years Ago
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Since you have 3D coat, you can sculpt and paint body parts to resmble clothes too and use displacement maps, extra bits like cuffs, sleeves, skirts, capes can be attached as accessories and cloth weighted with physX
CC will even load them if named with the character creator accessory extension and put in the custom folder.
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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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rampart brings up and interesting point I never really considered. If someone creates a popular iclone show would Reallusion hold a copyright to it?
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By justaviking - 8 Years Ago
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VirtualMedia (2/4/2016)
rampart brings up and interesting point I never really considered. If someone creates a popular iclone show would Reallusion hold a copyright to it?
The official answer must come from Reallusion.
But...
I would assume the answer to that is "No, they do not."
It has been clear that even without "export" licenses, we can create videos and do whatever we want with them. We can make money off our videos. But we cannot sell the props and things.
I would imagine that using Reallusion "tools" does not take away from the fact that the item is still our creative product.
I expect I could create a character, and sell movies featuring that character. I could probably sell plastic action figures of my character. But I might not be able to sell the actual iAvatar.
I hope Reallusion responds. It will be interesting to see how they clarify it.
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By planetstardragon - 8 Years Ago
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the concept goes....
You can sell the painting, but you can't sell the paint.
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By bluemidget666 - 8 Years Ago
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Isn't it covered by everything being royalty free...
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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when in doubt reread the eula. They updated it and pinned it to the top of the forums but here it is to check again. Also check the text info that comes with the downloads its all in there as well in the readme file
http://www.reallusion.com/Reallusion_Content_EULA.pdf
You can use the content in videos, but when it comes to reselling it they have rules and no no's.
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By bluemidget666 - 8 Years Ago
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The pictures, videos are yours but the content you made it with is not unless you made the content.
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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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urbanlamb (2/4/2016)
when in doubt reread the eula. They updated it and pinned it to the top of the forums but here it is to check again. Also check the text info that comes with the downloads its all in there as well in the readme file http://www.reallusion.com/Reallusion_Content_EULA.pdfYou can use the content in videos, but when it comes to reselling it they have rules and no no's.
So if someone was paid to syndicate a series that was created with iclone could they?
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By rampart - 8 Years Ago
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When a person writes a book or document there are many things in common for all writers, including words, grammar, spelling, etc.
It would not be too difficult if you compared many books to realize there are even paragraphs with the precise wording used in other books or documents.
Every posting on this forums is a unique document and copyright protected as I understand. Why is that... because the complete document is the protected document.
Authors can apply for copyright protection by government authority that has jurisdiction
It is also my understanding it isn't necessary to make a formal copyright request unless there are real possibilities of plagiarism.
http://www.plagiarism.org/
I am interested to read Reallusion answers to this thread. It may seem strange to some persons, but printed terms and conditions can be illegal.
Yet, it is easy to make declarations and warnings about content. We see FBI and other warnings frequently in the opening frames of videos.
I doubt many of those warnings could be enforced, because of "commons interest" protections.
I understand also that parody is a broad and open door that defeats copyright protections.
The ability to create our own unique modification of characters and clothing should provide no copyright or DRM protections for anyone.
I say that because the CC presets use multiple sliders with a huge number of permutations for editing portions of the content.
Using these tools effectively provides the ability to create unique characters and clothing.
I conclude the ability to create unique characters and clothing means there is no way of using copyright protections even if persons use RL basic core characters to start.
The providing of those tools by RL should preclude any protections of any part of those characters when modified.
Just the nature of the application itself should rule out any protections and that should include DRM as well.
I suspect core characters and core clothing that allow for modification within the CC application have no basis authority for DRM protections, and RL is over-reaching on this.
Daz3d does things a bit different .
The artist create and sell complete content items often with minor expansions to those items.
The artists also produce expansion packs that embellish or improve the content items.
There is no DRM protection and there is no way to easily edit the actual content items to create unique content.
There appear to be a number slippery slopes when artists try to sell their work and then inhibit the buyers use of items they buy.
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By justaviking - 8 Years Ago
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I can purchase blueprints for a house. With them, I can then build the house and sell the house. But I cannot sell the blueprints.
That's how I look at it.
It is getting muddy now if I need special licensing to move content from one application to another... CrazyTalk 8 heads to Character Creator to iClone. Do I need a "license" to move it to myself, and does that mean I can also give it to someone else or not?
Reallusion, what say you?
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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VirtualMedia (2/4/2016)
urbanlamb (2/4/2016)
when in doubt reread the eula. They updated it and pinned it to the top of the forums but here it is to check again. Also check the text info that comes with the downloads its all in there as well in the readme file http://www.reallusion.com/Reallusion_Content_EULA.pdfYou can use the content in videos, but when it comes to reselling it they have rules and no no's. So if someone was paid to syndicate a series that was created with iclone could they?
are you making a movie ? or selling the assets used to make the movie?
If your making a movie,series, poster you hold the rights to that movie you paid them to use their "actors" and make your movie/series/ poster. Your not selling the actor (i think that if he was a real actor he would take issue with being sold lol sorry my wierd sense of humour just kicked in). so your fine. If you make a game you can distribute assets in that game as part of the game, but they request you contact them with the game first and they check it out and then give you the license needed so you can distribute the finished product.
When you go to a store and want to make a painting or a pair of pants yourself .. you go and purchase the bits and pieces and sell the painting or put it on your wall and same with the pants..(okay well maybe not identical with the pants.. you would not hang them on your wall.. maybe if they were very special pants.. lol but normally you wear pants..) In this case the rules if they were adapted it would be "you can sell or use the pants or do whatever you like with the painting.. just dont sell our supplies" Of course in this case the supplies are consumed and non duplicatable so once you use them they are gone LOL but its the same thing really
pardon my sense of humour but this issue has been discussed a lot on these forums so this time I am being silly in my analogies 
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By justaviking - 8 Years Ago
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urbanlamb (2/4/2016)
When you go to a store and want to make a painting or a pair of pants yourself .. you go and purchase the bits and pieces and sell the painting or put it on your wall and same with the pants..(okay well maybe not identical with the pants.. you would not hang them on your wall.. maybe if they were very special pants.. lol but normally you wear pants..) In this case the rules if they were adapted it would be "you can sell or use the pants or do whatever you like with the painting.. just dont sell our supplies" Of course in this case the supplies are consumed and non duplicatable so once you use them they are gone LOL but its the same thing really - I can purchase blueprints for a house. With them, I can then build the house and sell the house. But I cannot sell the blueprints.
But it's only an analogy, not to be confused with an official EULA.
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By rampart - 8 Years Ago
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EULA are often abused and often have incoherent terms or conditions.
The software industry in all manner of situations have restrictions in EULA that cannot be justified legally.
Basically, the EULA is to make it clear you don't own the software you are leasing or renting it.
Enforcement of EULA is very quiet, because software developers don't really want people informed of EULA legality.
That is certain, when they go to far with restrictions on the use of their software.
Just because the EULA, terms and conditions are documented doesn't make them legally enforceable.
That is even when you agree to them. It isn't possible to agree and be bound by a document that is illegal even in part.
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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Just remember "their house their rules" and by clicking to purchase content or software from them .. well
BY CREATING A MEMBER ACCOUNT OR PURCHASING CONTENT FROM REALLUSION YOUACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, UNDERSTAND THEM, ANDAGREE TO BE BOUND BY THEM. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH OR UNDERSTAND THESE TERMS ANDCONDITIONS YOU SHOULD NOT USE THE REALLUSION MEMBER SERVICES OR PURCHASE CONTENTFROM REALLUSION.
but most people dont read the fine print before purchasing even the first time. Me I usually when dealing with a new company read the fine print. Once I have decided its the usual fine print and I can live with their rules.. I give them my money.
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By rampart - 8 Years Ago
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It doesn't matter what they say or how they say it. If there are illegal requirements you are required to accept in the document it is not binding, nor enforceable.
It may be you can be intimidated by things you have agreed, but in a court of law...legality is at the core of complaints.
Bankers are notorious for making illegal contracts and they get away with it because the majority of people are intimidated or ignorant of their legal rights.
In this situation with RL it is not a big deal, but I would think they would have enough respect for this community to do things properly and legally.
Personally, I care less about whether there is DRM or not.
If I don't like something I don't buy it, especially if I know something is contrary to my needs.
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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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I guess what concerns me is how RL is borderline militant on DRM. I own many software licenses however none of them come close to the enforcement of DRM requirements as RL does with their software / content.
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By planetstardragon - 8 Years Ago
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look, when you make enough money doing anything, you will have a lawsuit from someone that believes their are entitled to a share of your money. I've seen this many, many times.....you have people that make a career out of suing, others that make careers out of stealing, and others that make careers out of price gouging. - the rest are the monkeys in the middle giving them money to sue each other :p
I've seen enough to feel nauseous at will! lol
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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I dont know if i would do business with a company that I feel is breaking the law. If people do feel strongly about it contact support for clarification and don't spend money. I dont think I have ever signed an illegal contract and said "I will sue you later but take my money now" lol I just dont give them my money.
There are indeed businesses I have either not done business with or terminated business with as a result of terms or policies or happenings i felt were not legal, but in the case of reallussion I went in eyes wide open probably because I have encountered issues before and in my case find their terms quite reasonable. In fact they could refuse to allow the amount of adapting and derivatives of their content at all but instead let people use their stuff as a base to build new content on and make money from. I think their terms are quite acceptable. Although I rarely make derivative content and usually own all my own pixels when selling it. I do find the character creator quite fun and probably will make a few silly characters to sell, but reallussion could prohibit me from selling them but instead say "hey sure put them up on the market place and if people buy em great here keep 60%" or whatever it is .. i forget right now.
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By rampart - 8 Years Ago
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The fun part will be when one of the RL users really taps into something and makes real money or is damaged in some fashion.
All it takes is one lawsuit that drags out for four years across multiple jurisdictions and the lawyers' retainage and fees keep piling up every month.
Not only are lawsuits expensive, but they can be demoralizing....because they just go on and on....like it seems forever.
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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VirtualMedia (2/4/2016)
I guess what concerns me is how RL is borderline militant on DRM. I own many software licenses however none of them come close to the enforcement of DRM requirements as RL does with their software / content.
The DRM is for content not software. If you use content you have not paid for they will plaster it with watermarks. This is not a bad thing. If you dont want to run into this drm then dont use things like this in the software. I have never had an issue with these watermarks because I never download something that might have a watermark unless its a trial then I expect a watermark. However its easy to avoid this by simply using your own assets.
They do plaster the iclone trial of software with a watermark which of course disappears if you purchase it. They mark things so you cant use it without paying the creator its only fair. In theory money is an invention of man, but until they dispense with it like they did in star trek we have to pay for things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
Anyhow the way to remove these watermarks is to pay for the level of rights you desire.
If its an movie using iclone you pay for the iclone license to use the assets/content
If its a movie/game whatever made outside of iclone you pay for an export license to use said content/assets.
All bugs aside you should not encounter them unless its content you have not purchased the proper rights for (same with their software really but in this case its content that is your issue)
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By VirtualMedia - 8 Years Ago
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All bugs aside you should not encounter them unless its content you have not purchased the proper rights for (same with their software really but in this case its content that is your issue)
Not necessarily, as I've posted earlier, issues arise when you don't have internet access or secure access such as a hotel or public wifi. I've been in a number of situations when it would have been foolish to disable my security software just to validate for 137th time content I've paid for the rights to use.
Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way and should just start making content and putting it up in the Marketplace. What has your experience been selling content in the Marketplace? Is it profitable?
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By urbanlamb - 8 Years Ago
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I am not really a huge seller I just put a few things up I make for my movies that others might want and most stuff I give away lol. I am assuming it is profitable for many lol. I guess it would depend on what you make and if people need it and whatnot.
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By rampart - 8 Years Ago
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The solution to DRM problems. All developers that sell stuff should be required to LOUDLY tell buyers their content requires DRM content items.
Developers should not be allowed to sell in the stores unless limitations for use of the content are disclosed LOUDLY.
Something like this...
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By animagic - 8 Years Ago
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There is no need for all this drama. If you buy content then the prerequisites are stated as to what is needed to make it work. This has been like this for years. The issue put forward by the OP is something different altogether.
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By Peter (RL) - 8 Years Ago
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rampart (2/3/2016)
I would appreciate to know just what I can or cannot do
Will the RL CC be a finalized tool that will allow us to create characters with clothing so we can produce copyright characters, if we need them?
With regards to video, the EULA states the following:-
"Reallusion grants you a non-exclusive, worldwide, Royalty-Free license to display Content within your iClone and/or CrazyTalk and/or CrazyTalk Animator movies. You may generate, sell and redistribute your movies created with iClone and/or CrazyTalk and/or CrazyTalk Animator with full ownership and use-rights to the output media in Image or Video format within the output guidelines of this agreement."
So this means simply that you own the movie and have full usage rights commercially. However the license remains non-exclusive because your video will contain iClone content and that obviously can't be exclusively yours.
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