What's the gap for iClone 6 users to achieve this?

What's the gap for iClone 6 users to achieve this?

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By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

what I noted..
Technical:
1. Avatar quality (is this about textures only)?
2. Mocap quality - they used ipisoft
3. Render quality
4. Good NLE

Non-technical
1. Art direction & cinematography
2. Camera techniques
3. Script quality
4. Directing quality
5. Use of audio

Watch & discuss.

Behind the scenes

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

if you do a search on youtube for "Mary had a little lamb" - the top video was 103 million. the low videos either had no views or under 100 views, but were pretty much similar to the 103 million. - whats needed to fill the gap between the videos that had like 10 views that looked the same as the 103 million views ?

the point of this post, the video you are praising looks like footage from a bunch of video games you can get on steam for under 10 dollars.

the most important thing you "Need" is for people to feel great about watching your video. - quality, skill, talent ...all fly out the window with good marketing lol

why, i'm willing to bet that people will buy rocks and make pets out of them with a good story!!

This is why all my art is scientifically designed to improve the consumers health! :cool:

By animatom - 9 Years Ago

I dont think it is a gap at all... (if you talking about quality of the video, not about numbers of views) In fact, I think that iClone in right hands, with good post-production, can do significantly better. This video have some very visible problems with textures and shadows, facial animations, with overall visuals.

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

Source filmmaker uses the team fortress and half life game engine enabling video capture and animation like machinima but with more control rather like iclone but using their game models as assets.
You can do the same thing in Unity or Unreal with Matinee.
There was good compositing used, soundtrack and effects but these are basics of any good production.
A hand drawn cartoon animated with CT animator would be just as slick with the right post production, just think SouthPark for example.

By jarretttowe - 9 Years Ago

Yeah this looks good. Great lighting on the red scene. I'm adding unity to my iclone arsenal. The vegetation and pbr rendering are too good to ignore. I know this isn't a unity project, but the unity asset store has won me over. Plus the blender integration is really nice.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

animatom (1/8/2016)

There have been many examples of that over the years. Not making a video at all is the biggest gap, methinks.

By animatom - 9 Years Ago

There have been many examples of that over the years. Not making a video at all is the biggest gap, methinks.

Couldn't agree more...

By alemar - 9 Years Ago

By justaviking - 9 Years Ago

animagic (1/9/2016)

There have been many examples of that over the years. Not making a video at all is the biggest gap, methinks.

+1

True wisdom indeed.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/8/2016)
the most important thing you "Need" is for people to feel great about watching your video.

I agree - but... is that the same as saying...

[quote]
- quality, skill, talent ...all fly out the window with good marketing /quote]?

I think if that statement were true there would be no box office bombs outta hollywood. No?

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

animatom (1/8/2016)

In fact, I think that iClone in right hands, with good post-production, can do significantly better.

Example please? Why is it taking so long for iClone to fall into the "right hands" if I dare ask? Or for the right hands to showcase iClone?

This video have some very visible problems with textures and shadows, facial animations, with overall visuals.

Really? That's a very general critique. Can you be more specific about the problems and how they would impact the average audience (the one that gets you 103 Million views).

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

wendyluvscatz (1/8/2016)

So it boils down to a good story and how its told. I agree with that. I wonder though how to get that Zombie/Vampire look off iclone characters..

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

that's easy, with custom morphs.

I finally figured out why the smiles on iclone characters look so sterile,   there is no cheek animation - without the cheeks curling up, it looks like a robotic smile.

what we need overhauled is better ways to access and animate the morphs beyond the limited sets of profiles we are allowed to create in 3DX5.      it's possible, just severely restricted.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/8/2016)

You surround yourself with as many talented artist as this guy did...
You'll produce an awesome video, too!

Very good point about Team-based workflows. What if iClone had team workflow features (shared repository, edit locking, check-in, check out, versioning etc) to facilitate collaborative effort?

No matter how good one does..... someone will always say, "No, this is wrong and that is wrong."

Indeed! I'd like to see an iClone video with over 37K views. Leave alone 100 million.

At the 4:20 thru 4:27 mark, where he shoots the zombie in the mouth....
I wish the arterial blood spatter, would have spayed onto that couch, or whatever that prop was.

Yah how did he get the gun into the zombie's mouth? Previous scene had the zombie biting his hand...

All in All...I enjoyed it, immensely!:)

Me too and I think that "enjoyment" is what differentiates a good movie from a lousy one. What specifically did you like about the clip?

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/9/2016)

Aha! The gaps do exist!

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

jarretttowe (1/9/2016)

Am curious about this combination of Unity, iClone and Blender. Hope to see some clips to demo the capabilities...

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

it's easy to get the big youtube views with a community effort, organizing animators that love to debate isn't easy though lol.

it's also easy to make amazing videos out of iclone, but at the moment it's super tedious because of the limitations imposed on the people that love to debate, makes it even more difficult.

This place is designed for chaos, maybe that's why i feel right at home. ♥

I have fbx export now, and I sincerely thank reallusion for that!!

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

animagic (1/9/2016)

Not making a video at all is the biggest gap, methinks.

So what keeps iCloners from making tons of "wow!" clips (I have only seen very few). is it tool limitations or has RL marketed to the wrong demographic? Perhaps RL should bring visual storytellers into their marketing arsenal.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

alemar (1/9/2016)

I studied a few Akira Kurosawa movies as well (esp. Seven Samurai & Yojimbo). Great insights & thanks for the clip.

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

pmaina (1/9/2016)

[quote

Indeed! I'd like to see an iClone video with over 37K views. Leave alone 100 million.

I did both of these in iClone

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

I stand corrected. 80K views is pretty good! But when I read the comments...

Fans dont say

"kill me plz....." or.. "what THE FZCK" or "I feel like I'm going to give birth a little devil baby after watching this."

How on earth did "that" get 80K views. I am humbled and amazed. The technique used actually works if youtube views are anything to go by.

OK. Lets get serious, Upping the stakes... How do we get 1 million views?
[YouTube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqSyibSPq5w[/YouTube]

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

Aha! The gaps do exist!

yes, but it might not be the gaps you think, we do in fact have fbx export, and we do in fact have ways to import facial expressions / morphs. The limitations do not stop you from doing great work, they simply add extra work.

So the gap is the user not willing to go the extra mile. I'm willing to go the extra mile, but gas ain't free so I would really like reallusion to address these points so i can spend more time experimenting, and not hesistating that everything is going to take me 6 years because i need to learn 15 other softwares to fix what i could do in iclone with a few sliders if they existed.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/9/2016)

Aha! The gaps do exist!

So iClone (RL) should make it easier and quicker to do facial morphs. I agree.

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

Pmaina I never claimed those were good videos :w00t:
they are crap :P
just the number of views :blush:
you do not have a link like many of in your sigline I see, my portfolio though somewhat ??? is still there for all to see :laugh:

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

on wendy, she is entertaining and loved. She's like a howard stern of animation - i often say i feel like i'm going to die 7 days after watching wendy's videos. I hope it doesn't happen, but if someone did die like that, her views would go through the roof, she'd get her own wiki page, and they'd add her art to museums around the world. She has a great story and works it well!!

serious, every time i see a wendy movie, i remember this....and I don't mean this as a dis either, she really has a great hold on that genre of gothic video ...it is in fact a genre :D

By mtakerkart - 9 Years Ago

@pmania

The exemple you showed have a team of 7 people working on that, each of them have there own skills.That's the only gap with Iclone video vs all others....
I never saw a Team iclone movie since I bought the 4th version....Iclone has the defects of it qualities : you can do all the movie process in a easy way.
I know people working on 3d (Game, movies at Montreal) wich never heard about Iclone but knowing Wendy videos!!!!
I owned a 18 Neuron kit and I assure you that now I can have the same characters animation like the Gambler. You must re-texturize lot
of things like in the Gambler to have the same result and yes the atmospheric iclone engine is lower than all the others... My own problem is....Time!!!
Because for now I'm alone to make my stories and if I take several months to do it , a new tech shows up or an update make me to reconsider what I've done!!
Today I'm comfortable with the render, I made this test yesterday in one hour in a "preview" mode:

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

wendyluvscatz (1/9/2016)

Pmaina I never claimed those were good videos :w00t:
they are crap :P
just the number of views :blush:

Nonetheless, 70K+ views for those videos is truly amazing. It is a genre of sorts and I wonder if there is an unclaimed niche in such genre from a creativity standpoint.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

mtakerkart (1/9/2016)

The exemple you showed have a team of 7 people working on that, each of them have there own skills.That's the only gap with iClone video vs all others....

This is why I keep asking for Team Workflow in iClone. I don't know if its in the roadmap but I think someone at RL should try squeeze it in if it isn't.

Reason being one user can achieve every limited results within the lifetime of a single iClone version - then its time to upgrade. Quite a number of users are caught up in that predicament - and possibly why they blame the tool for lacking this and lacking that...

Hope RL is watching keenly. 1 Million+ views for an iClone movie is massive FREE marketing for Reallusion. Numbers don't lie and the numbers seem to be heavily in favor of team workflows.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

Wendy's Iclone video with 937K Views - despite similar comments! I am speechless! This is definitely a genre.

Another one with 779K views

All made with earlier versions of iClone. So is this solid proof that the gap is in the user and not the tool?

By mtakerkart - 9 Years Ago

This is why I keep asking for Team Workflow in iClone. I don't know if its in the roadmap but I think someone at RL should try squeeze it in if it isn't

I don't understand you point of vue. I think Reallusion is not a problem to build a team to produce movie. Acting performance needs good actors, Good textures needs a good Zbrush , 3coat,
etc user , good editing needs a good Avid , finalcut , davinci resolve etc, user . Lighting in Iclone is the same rules as in every soft but you need a good designer guy.
Of course now it's to know what means "Good"!!

By mtakerkart - 9 Years Ago

Because I've my last child be 4 years old , we see lot of time this kind of video , made with Iclone with dozen of millions vues:

Like I said before : What is good???

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

pmaina (1/9/2016)

no that first one was DAZ studio
and second one some iClone I mostly use Carrara actually

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@pmania
You can't just expect to get lots of views unless you have either :
- A Wendy brain.
- Boobies showing in the YouTube video thumbnail.

Doesn't matter how good your videos are, those are the two ingredients that work, you either need to be a Wendy (offer something out of the norm), or attract via boobies. I've noticed that Wendy is very modest in some of her comments. Her work is not "crap" even if she honestly thought they were. She's lucky in that she has the ability to just go with the flow and not let technical matters spoil her fun.

If you threw her a totally broken software package, she'd still produce a masterpiece with it because she's a Wendy.

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

exactly, every time i watch a wendy video, i can feel the fun she had making it, and you sort of just have fun watching her have fun!

what makes it extra unique, is that she is doing some great shots in the process, if you took any one of her videos and made it a still, it would be very good quality.

By jarretttowe - 9 Years Ago

But does youtube compensate her for these? I hope so.

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

I initially earnt a fair bit on the cat video (the DAZ studio one) that enabled me to buy Zbrush which I still have not figured out, I prefer Carrara vertex modelling
but it soon dwindled
most my stuff not monetised, cannot be bothered with all the issues proving my own work associated with it.
I do this for fun not money and do not take it seriously at all so never going to be the pro user :w00t:
I only posted in response to the comments on views and showing Youtube views does not equal quality

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@Wendy
It would have to be some serious amount of work for me to ignore monetisation on YouTube!

I don't think I'd be able to live with the thought of letting Google away with a single penny that I could have earned on my videos if I had any. Sounds typical of Google-style manipulation, piss-off the uploaders so much that they cannot be bothered to monetise. Makes me wonder what on earth they're asking you to do (and you shouldn't need to prove anything unless there's a complaint). If one video enabled you to buy ZBrush, wow, you must be letting them away with an absolute fortune with the amount of stuff you upload and accumulated views!

Better in your pocket where it belongs, Wendy, and it's your work after all!

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

Yes, but I don't want to create stuff like Wendy, we have a Wendy to create stuff like Wendy!

By VirtualMedia - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/9/2016)

Absolutely 113% agree! There's many valid points on this thread but the sterile robotic open shut mouth and eyes is a believe-ability killer. Continued improvements to the realtime render engine will always be a plus, but lifelike expressions would make have a huge impact on the quality of likable IC movies. Cheek curling, improved jaw movement / rotation, cheek expansion / puff, lip rolls, eye and brow improvements ...

I posted this ex in wishful features, notice there's no great rendering, lighting, texturing... but it's very pleasing to watch.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/10/2016)

pumeco (1/10/2016)

Yes, but I don't want to create stuff like Wendy, we have a Wendy to create stuff like Wendy!

Nobody is suggesting you create anything like anyone else.
You wanted to learn how to fine tune springs.... You can learn a lot from Ms. Wendy. (A Carrara User).

Focus on how things are done and learn your software of choice's TOOLS.... to duplicate the technique.
Get your feet wet.... then take off the training wheels and MAKE IT WORK the way you want it to! ;)

Fine Tuning a spring is very simple.... if you know how to use Blender's TOOLS!
It's not rocket science!:pinch:

I know that, but I don't want to learn blender's rigging tools (not for use with iClone) - I'd be better off learning to rig in DAZ Studio because the Genesis figure I'm importing is native to that program :P
Anyway, I've posted a reply for you in the other thread, so please reply there or we'll both get an arse-kicking for hijacking this one!

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

pmaina (1/8/2016)Watch & discuss.

Swoop and animatom summed up the gist of my view
but here's a light "discuss"...

Technical:
Pluses: audio quality; camera skill
Minuses: SFM render capability is barely exploited
Mediocre facial animation; the usual dead game eyes

Creative:
Pluses: composition, pacing, editing and use of sound
Minuses: shadow-less floaty actors and scene focus objects

Shadow fail is not a technical challenge, but a creative oversight
It is a hallmark of amature productions
In this case, it is not a sloppiness issue (this team is discipline) but a blindspot
In CG narrative it is one of the most common visual fail 'red herrings'
as in distracting nonsensical elements that takes viewer out of immersion

Not important for hobbyists making silly goofy plot-less videos of course
For as a "showcase" art work, it is a testament to the grade of the elusive creative vision

Overall, it's good job within its context (Source community non-commercial project)

Great thread btw. 5 stars. :)

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

pmaina (1/9/2016)

mtakerkart (1/9/2016)

The exemple you showed have a team of 7 people working on that, each of them have there own skills.That's the only gap with iClone video vs all others....

This is why I keep asking for Team Workflow in iClone. I don't know if its in the roadmap but I think someone at RL should try squeeze it in if it isn't.

Responding to two keywords here, team, and skills
Which, to me, defines the gap in your question
What's the gap for iClone 6 users to achieve this...

Community maturity matters...
The whole community as in tool maker policy + users

Game engine filmmaking community evolution...IMHO

primitive: hyper-reactive esp to high end/ skilled users (infant years)
high school: myopic obsession with 1 out of 10 CG film technical disciplines (iClone)
skilled: CG generalist technical hurdles crossed, focus on playing (Source 1&2, Cryeditor 1&2, iClone 5%)
skilled team: committed high discipline users (Source2 thanks to Dota and Garry's Mod, UE4)

Pro level workflow supporting tool upgrade will attract more high end CG users
At current snailtime rate, iClone community will probably turn 20% skilled in 2019

Skilled users could be pro or hobbyists, free garage tools or $$$$ tool users
In more universal term, they are self-taught or schooled CG generalists
Even with a skilled team, doens't mean commerical value grade, nor profit

Even if the goal is a 'non-project non-story vanity project'...

A polished 3D film of Source2/UE4 quality can be done with IC6
doesn't mean it's feasible logistically - even with a skilled team
There remained a HUGE production capability gap between iC6 and SFM
No pro workflow, no WIP road map of pipeline6, no production readiness
As off today it will take longer, more brains
more brute force labor to operate more external supplementary tools
to produce a polished film of the same quality in iClone6 vs Source2

Not to say iClone6 won't mature into am SFM, UE Matinee or Cinebox alternative for polished film making

Carry on... :)

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

mtakerkart (1/9/2016)

Because I've my last child be 4 years old , we see lot of time this kind of video , made with Iclone with dozen of millions vues:

Like I said before : What is good???

12 Million plus views - yes but still it seems like the only way for an iClone video to attract views is to use "shock factor", political satire (hugely connected to current news - and high risk of libel litigation) and/or click-baiting (as appears to be the case in this video - which is illegal if content rating laws that protect kids are applied). This is not sustainable. Not genuine clicks in my view and am sure RL wouldn't want to be associated with inappropriate click-bait videos in their marketing!

Can we have more credible examples please?

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

i find it curious that when it comes to render quality, that for the most part, most animators bee-line for hyper realism. I've been studying a lot of animated videos, and general commercial type videos, and ironically enough, the most commercial style is flash, and most anime are digital hand-drawings done with toon boom. - the only places i see the game engine - hyper realistic renders is either in movies - mixed in with real footage, or game trailers.- stills are a big deal with 3D though, but otherwise there are shorts on youtube, but they get very little views in comparison to the more 2D or anime styles.

I'd love to see iclone claim it's own popular genre, but i really don't think the rendering engine is the most important thing to filling that 'gap'
- granted, it could always be better, i'm not saying it's great - but things like expressions would matter more to me, because these are things that evoke emotions from viewers and directly add to the story. The rendering itself doesn't weigh heavy on me because you can do a ton to the video with post effects and color grading.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

jarretttowe (1/9/2016)

But does youtube compensate her for these? I hope so.

I don't think she monetized her channel. She could have earned about $5000-$10,000? Enough to pay back for her previous iClone investment.

The "borderline clickbait" video (king kong v/s dinosaur) has monetized and is probably earning a fortune already.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

VirtualMedia (1/10/2016)

planetstardragon (1/9/2016)

This is awsome. If iClone could offer better expressions it would be the the most valuable upgrade ever. If I was asked to choose only ONE upgrade feature this year, this would be it.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

pmaina (1/9/2016)

I wouldn't know; I'm not an "iCloner" and I don't know what "wows" you. Obviously iClone is a tool for visual storytelling; that is the part that is of interest to me, and the reason to make movies using the tool. The perceived shortcomings (which are real enough) are often an excuse not to create anything. You see the same in other areas where art and technology meet.

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

yep, that blend shapes video has more entertainment value than how realistic the shadows look. I agree, i'd love control like that in iclone.

By animatom - 9 Years Ago

Well... maybe off the main topic, but I made video-wall animation for song "Handler" of band "Muse" for their world tour (I heard millions saw it) and, based on that video, I made official "Handler" song lyrics video - watched over 7 millions on youtube.
What I want to say, iClone can be used for high-end professional work and that work can be numbered in millions. Of course, it depends on context.. (on how popular train we put our wagon, for example... :) )

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

Bellatrix (1/10/2016)

As off today it will take longer, more brains more brute force labor to operate more external supplementary tools to produce a polished film of the same quality in iClone6 vs Source2

Indeed. When defining priorities, RL developers should wear a generalist producer's hat and map the production process to tool capabilities at each step of the production process (possibly innovating with shortcuts and EZ buttons that will disrupt the industry and bring about a new revolution with regards to production effort, time and cost).

A good number of users are saying here that they would like to have their entire 3D animation workflow in iClone. This is a huge long-term business opportunity for RL IMO if they can focus on enhancements that reduce reliance on third party tools.

Priorities being efficient, team oriented workflow and face morphing (wide range of believable expressions. kill the zombie/robot look).

By animatom - 9 Years Ago

sorry, pmaina, didnt saw your previous questions. Very good ones.
Yes, that video have some textures and shadows problems that iClone can make better. I am too lazy to watch video again now to number them all (that money on the bad doesnt have shadow for example), but flaws really arent point now. Specially not in context of numbers of views, what depends of many, many other conditions.
My point is that iClone video can look and feel magnificent. Yes, in right hands. Did I saw right hands in action? Sometimes, but sadly mainly just on parts of videos. Does right hands which can produce full miraculous video exist? O yes. Why they dont do it? Well, that answer is not in iClone.

By wungun - 9 Years Ago

i dont know i think i did a pretty good job with its render engine, why compare and keep comparing iclone to other software any way? I know iclones weakness and its strength, I also know how to compensate and work around to achieve the look i want. That video was not about software it was about talent pure and simple. There is no gap just that person was just really creative and knows how to use other software in their pipeline. There is a gap if you stay confined to one way of thinking and do not try to solve problems.

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

i would agree, but iclone doesn't import facial animation like that other than ct8 - and ct8 doesn't go there either.... so no disney like expressions in iclone unless you custom the morphs and wrestle with your mouse to get a decent performance. - it's not that it's not possible, it's not efficient and very limiting on a crucial element to making good animations. realistic expressions.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/10/2016)

pumeco,
I know that, but I don't want to learn blender's rigging tools (not for use with iClone) - I'd be better off learning to rig in DAZ Studio because the Genesis figure I'm importing is native to that program Tongue

Blender has the tools to fine tune spings.... Daz does NOT!
You DON'T want to learn. You Want EZ Buttons.
I get it now!

I give up trying to help you.
Good Luck!

No you don't get it, I'm not interested in scripting and all that stuff, I'm interested in the moviemaking aspect of it.
I don't expect to have to make a single script to be able to do that!

If getting adjustable spring involves scripting then I won't bother with it, simple as that, I'm into filmmaking, not programming.
Anyway, I'm not replying further in this thread, this is someone else's thread :P

By Kelleytoons - 9 Years Ago

Not going to repeat some of the many good comments here (particularly on the basics of just good storytelling, which by far trumps any technical limitations ANY software might have) but I thought I'd bring up one thing no one has mentioned yet, in regards to facial expressions.

It's quite possible (not a slam dunk, but definitely within the realm of possibility) that facial mocap will solve *most* of the issues folks seem to have getting decent facial animations. It's not a coincidence that this technology has completely changed CGI in the movies, and just as body mocap has made it possible for even those of us with limited resources to produce smooth, natural body movements that would be difficult and time consuming to create any other way, so can facial mocap make possible both more expressive as well as natural facial animations. It *might* even solve such issues as correct morphs not existing (obviously you have to have the ability to morph the face to follow whatever is being captured, but a correct blend might be achieved in a way hardly possible manually).

Although my usual pessimistic nature says that it may not happen this year, I am very hopeful that RL is working on including this technology given its cheapness nowadays. I know all of you have seen other programs that can do this, and I suspect most of you would agree that it would be a hugely powerful tool to add to the RL arsenal.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

Personally I like mouse-based animation, it's great, but it needs ballistics to make it work properly, so that movement has a feel or real 'weight' to it.

Manual keyframing is too tiresome, mocap is too problematic, but mouse-based animation is a good idea. Like I said though, it needs lazy-mouse features and ballistics that are adjustable, so that if you shake a head for example, it feels like you're shaking a head that has some real weight behind it (all adjustable with a parameters like acceleration, damping, inertia etc). In laymans term, what I mean is there needs to be adjustable paramaters that make it feel as if you're wading through treacle when you move the mouse, and the thickness of the treacle needs to be adjustable (ballistics, inertia, etc).

Right now, it's pure mouse movement with no refinement, so it's nowhere near as nice as mouse-based animation would be if it had ballistics applied to it while you're actually recording the movement.
We need some treacle, that's all!

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/10/2016)

Actually most animtors dont go for hyperrealism. The people who use iclone do and gamers do but animators dont lol. Beware the issues on uncanny valley.
Animators have learned that doing the opposite is the best approach. Game makers often go for hyper realism because the gamers want it. I would argue that the people wanting hyperrealism in their videos are more into machinima then actual animation. That is why the requests are the way they are I think. There is a group of icloners that dont go for hyper realism but oddly they are often ignored as iclone moves towards accomodating this hyper realism type stuff which ironically is for the gaming market and.. that is why we have so much export etc etc and the reason why the CC is based on reasonably realistic looking characters. They did it for the gaming market export part. The also market iclone as a previs tool for live action movies. So there is another reason why reallussion focuses on realism. The market share that would use iclone for gaming exports and previs is a lot larger.

Now I sit with CC characters and am busy sculpting them into cartoons LOL. Not a big deal I am having fun doing it although I create a fair number of characters from scratch still because sculpting CC characters to fit my idea is not nearly as rewarding as making them from scratch.

The reality is that "animators" the movie making kind outside of places like iclone dont want hyper realism.

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

There is a big gap when it comes to blending motions together. It is actually impossible to blend motion files that have been re-aligned (had their rotation and translation adjusted). They can be aligned beautifully without blends, but the blend never works right, even if a motion clip is collected and broken at the transition. The blend still goes berserk, even in the new motion!

These are motions where the character is moving around the screen.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

I think the whole "hyper-realism" thing can be summed-up in one sentence :
It's just good to know the capability is there, cause if it's capable of that, then it's capable of anything you throw at it - no matter what the style.

I'd rather have a more than capable tool than one that's not capable enough. I've noticed from comments on here that people think my own wish for a better renderer is based on an obsession for realism, but it isn't. I just want to know that I'm not going to be hit by technical barriers such as seriously poor reflection, no volumetric atmosphere, no SSS, no motion blur, I could go on.

I reckon most iCloners would be happy just to be able to create soething that they feel is reasonably believable, I don't think the goal is hyper realism. There's a danger with hyper-realism in that you become obsessed with making it look ultra-real, and in the process of doing so, you never get anything done. A person could get obsessive over the realism of the texture on a wall, while another person could knock-out a complete animation in the time it took them to complete just the texture. So for me presonally, I just want the ability, to know it's there so that I won't come up against technical barriers, cause really, the built-in renderer is the biggest barrier of all in iClone as far as I'm concerned. Others would disagree because their projects aren't as reliant upon it in the same way.

Point is, better it is capable than not capable.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

Not true, sw00000p, it hasn't stopped me learning anything.
What it has done is stopped me producing anything, there's a big difference ;)

Apart from the spring bone blending thing, I can do absolutely anything I want even in iClone 5.5.
The only thing stopping me is the built-in renderer: it's simply not suited to the projects I have in mind, it just gives me a 'can't be bothered' attitude about it all.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

pumeco (1/10/2016)

sw00000p (1/10/2016)

Blender has the tools to fine tune spings.... Daz does NOT!
You DON'T want to learn. You Want EZ Buttons.
I get it now!

I give up trying to help you.
Good Luck!

Pumeco, I agree with your point as well. Its why I use iClone (and not Blender - which is free). I have no interest in learning intricate technicalities across multiple 3D tools, I just want to tell a story and if I can get an EZ tool that helps me focus on THAT, then that will be my dream tool and I will invest whatever it takes (time & money) to master it. I love EZ buttons.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/10/2016)

On Topic: The GAP
Fool yourself, as you will..... iClone will NOT produce an animated movie no where near the Quality of that video.
Why?

iClone's Facial Animations is created by (Moving Your Mouse).
1. All animation keys (X,Y,Z) are ALL placed on ONE TRACK.... NOT 3.

You can NOT match that videos animations....Using a Mouse to animate.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Filling the Gap:
Reallusion MUST trash the (Mouse Animation) and let you animate a (SPLINE RIG).... as seen in that video!

Facial Spline Rig: Jason Osipa from "Stop Starring!"

Using ONLY iClone..... there is a HUGE gap that'll NEVER be filled because of....
10 year old (Outdated tools).
____________________________________________________________________________________

IMO:
It will take a few more versions of iClone before Reallusion.....
Abandon's the Chitty Animation Method of Moving the Mouse to control facial animation and placing (X,Y,Z) keys on ONE TRACK.
Chitty.... period!

Don't let this stop you...... keep practicing.
...because if you tweak anything.... LONG ENOUGH.... it becomes acceptable.

iClone DOES do it's job of creating quick animated movies.... but don't compare it's animations and lighting to High-End software.

Excellent points Sw000p and I sincerely hope RL will have a good surprise for us with facial animation enhancements and it really should be a 6.5 thing so that iClone 7 can focus heavily on peformance, stability, robustness and team workflows.

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

rampa (1/10/2016)

yes if the motions are not from the same package often its impossible. I call this the "anti twirl" option because this is what happens when you try to place motions they just suddenly change direction. This is more of a bug to me that seems to be going unfixed, but I know not why. I keep thinking it has to do with the work they are doing on their mocap stuff because they have to fix the broken stuff, but they have the fix its just slated to go with certain features still under development.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@pmaina
Thanks, and I totally agree, I like EZ too and I'm still prepared to dig deeper now and then if I have to.
The problem with sw00000p is that he's correct and he knows he's correct, but unfortunately, he forgets in which context he is correct.

People who chose iClone are generally one-man/woman bands. It's totally awesome when they all come together on joint projects on occasion, but in general, I think iClone is more of a loner kinda thing. So iClone appeals to those who have something in mind and want to get it out there without being reliant upon anyone or anything. In sw00000p's Max and Maya world however, he's so blinded by the possibilities of those programs that he forgets that masses of people are usually involved in making those projects happen. Those things are aimed at a completely different market to those who use iClone. One is designed for teamwork (Max and Maya), and the other is designed to liberate you by making things easy and accessible to the indie (iClone). That's why I prefer iClone and have no time for things like Max and Maya.

I've owned Lightwave, Cinema4D, and ZBrush, all of which I sold :
- Sold Cinema4D because they got greedy by breaking the paint package for no reason other than to sell you it again.
- Sold Lightwave mainly because it felt kinda messy, the way things were arranged.
- Sold ZBrush because I've never known a more incomprehensible workflow in my life, and blender replaced what I used it for anyway.

As for the stuff sw00000p loves (Max and Maya), I'm perfectly happy to admit it is totally awesome stuff, and I've nothing against the software itself, but honestly, I'd rather lick a plague-infested rats-ass than buy anything from Autodesk with those prices and policies of theirs. Same goes for Adobe as well, never in a million years :Wow:

When people get pissed-off with what they've got these days, they don't go running to Autodesk and Adobe anymore, they go running to blender and hitfilm - always improving, always willing, always up for it.

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

urbanlamb (1/10/2016)

rampa (1/10/2016)

The motion twirl can be eliminated, but it introduces the blend-failure. I'm still learning so...... But anyway. iClone has root tracking turned on by default, and it can be turned off. If you add a clip without the root tracking, it can be re-oriented, and play out in the new direction. But, then the root is not under the character to blend properly with the next motion you insert. This is really problematic when you have motions from different packs, as you mention. RL motions all start at 0,0,0. A lot of mocap files do not, and so pose extra problems.

Here's a brief clip I discovered the blend issue on. I found cutting at clip transitions to be mandatory in some places.

We need a "drop root at this frame" button! :Wow:

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

rampa (1/10/2016)

yes if there is any single thing that they ever do like ever this needs fixing or whatever you want to call it... because it makes movie making very nearly impossible if your combining motions from different sources unless you strategically do camera work to avoid the twirls as I call em which seems to me a bit of a problem if you want to make a movie (or even with previs). Now they are introducing mocap and showing how to previs with mocap and occulis glasses.. this is why I am thinking there is something they will need to add somewhere along the line to fix this ...

anyhow.. lets hope this is coming soonish ...

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

You want to learn how to use blender for real time engines or just like all of it..
This is a place to learn it. They introduced a couple of new courses that will make you a 'pro' for 23 bucks a month (well 23 bucks in my money) https://cgcookie.com/

Take the blender course on how to use blender and the unity how to make assets for unity using blender and you probably will know more then you really needed or wanted to know LOL.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

Name anything you want to do in blender, and it's very likely there'll be a tutorial for it - go on - try it.
I just searched blender on YouTube, and it threw-up almost four million results :w00t:

I think you're playing a dangerous game, sw00000p, one where you get so confident in what you have that you don't bother looking into what else is out there!
That can be dangerous to your horizons and a very expensive mistake ;)

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

My videos are in that youtube pile LOL. However its often good to take courses that are given that are up to date and I support these guys because I think they do a wonderful job. I went through the unity course quickly to see if there is anything new to pick up its got everything in there. Alas there are no new secrets for me but always nice to see what others are up to just in case. Plus I like their art courses real life sculpturing and such and so this is what I like to watch on their site but even if i run out .. I keep on paying them :)

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/10/2016)

Over 4 million tutorials and you ask how to fine tune a simple spring effect.
....ummm! doesn't make much sense to me!

That's because you're so set in your ways that you're missing what I actually said.
I said time and time again that I don't want to use blender to do it, so I haven't bothered looking for blender tutorials, I want to use DS to make those bones.

Seriously sw00000p, no offence meant here, but you really need to look at the advanced rigging and set-up tools in DS even if you have no interest in it.
I'm not surprised Reallusion chose to support the DAZ figures with 3DXchange like they have, and thumbs-up to them for doing so, and doing it so well.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/10/2016)

LOL! :P Ooops! Forgive Me! :blush:

Ah alright then, seeing as it's you, sw00000p :D

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

urbanlamb (1/10/2016)

My videos are in that youtube pile LOL.

Which ones are yours?

I looked to see if you had a YouTube account some days back.
Was gonna add you to my Who's Who thread the same day I added Kelley, but couldn't find anything.

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

pumeco (1/10/2016)

urbanlamb (1/10/2016)

My videos are in that youtube pile LOL.

Which ones are yours?

I looked to see if you had a YouTube account some days back.
Was gonna add you to my Who's Who thread the same day I added Kelley, but couldn't find anything.

I have stuff on the forum figured you saw it anyhow I have a lot of blender tutorials at this point some are outdated but still useful and others are newer.

here is the latest one. I basically when I am doing stuff for myself say "oh that might be useful for others to know" and then stop and make a tutorial. Some are more coherent then others but its just for fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNYcaHBW_pA

I didnt post to that thread because well my videos are all over the place the channel is basically animation theme of sorts but its not dedicated to any single software. There is some stuff from iclone and some from crazytalk and then there is the tutorials and then there are some other small movies/videos done in whatever there is out there :)

here is the channel videos really its got all kinda stuff on there.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

Dammit swoop, I deleted that :D

It sounds like you're explaining how to do spring bones in that software, but that's not what I mean. I just want to know what it is I have to do or create in order to be able to control the blending, cause once I know that, I can go about trying to make it work - I can figure it out from there onwards. I want the spring bones, but I want them added to a Genesis figure in iClone. I'm pretty sure I know how to do that part. The only bit I don't know is how to control how the blend between the rigid part of the skin and the springy part of the skin. I know it's linked to a bone, but how do you control the blend between it, what is used to control the blend, what's it called?

Is it a technique, a feature, a method, if so what is it?
If you know, please tell me in my own thread though :cool:

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

pumeco (1/10/2016)

I didnt read the entire discussion but if your talking about associating mesh with a skeleton inside daz or whatever software I think this is what you mean that is called weight painting and "weighting" mesh to bones and reading around I seem to remember someone saying daz is very bad at that (i think it was vidi). I think she found a solution elsewhere but I dont know what it was. However she was also talking about designing her own characters and rigging them to conform with daz stuff so not sure if the weighting methods are any good or not for what you speak of.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
Of course I did, but I thought he was talking about a "mass" setting inside iClone6 or something (a setting for the spring).
Anyway, I'll look into that then, see if DAZ rigging can somehow support that thing, cheers both!

@urbanlamb
I look forward to watching that first link later, I didn't think they had that feature yet, so it's a relief to see it actually :)
I didn't think there was any way to load custom shapes into CC, never seen a video about it that's for sure!

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

Yes blender has had those features for a very long time. Its a full 3D suite for CGI if max and maya can do it .. Blender can to for the most part. In some cases there are tools in blender that work better then anywhere else and developers take from blender and add to their tools so it goes both ways. :)

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

No I meant I didn't think there was a to bring externally sculpted morphs into CC!
I thought you were limited to what they supplied in the morph dials.

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

pumeco (1/10/2016)

No I meant I didn't think there was a to bring externally sculpted morphs into CC!
I thought you were limited to what they supplied in the morph dials.

Yes you can via 3Dxcjange6 replace mesh so long as you do not change the vertex order.
You can morph the clothes too a bit.

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

oh yeah that its been fully usable since they launched it. What we are waiting for is the ability to make clothes etc for them. The pipeline tools are not finished yet, but the replace mesh has been working from the start. The clothing is a bit cheesy right now lol but if you can stretch the character mesh far enough to make the shape .. you can do it. The clothing options are limited until they finish the pipeline and/or introduce more base meshes for it.

By JC Weatherby - 9 Years Ago

I've read a little over half this thread and decided to wade in. iClone aesthetics, skill requirements, etc... are well covered in this forum. It's the stuff about Social Media and Youtube I wanted to comment on, having wrestled with this beast for over a year on Evocronik.

1. Yes, team and community do matter alot, in helping drive views on YT. But unless you've got an army, 1 Million strong, don't expect to be raking in $$$ (anyone know where I can get one of those, please let me know :)
2. The economics of YouTube are terrible for most people. Even the top earners (mega pop stars) make $.003 - .004 (three to 4 TENTHS of a PENNY) for ONE VIDEO VIEW. This I've been able to work out studying metrics from Social Blade and Virool.
3. Your earnings will be impacted by a lot of nebulous factors, like seasonal viewership, and declining ad rates (CPMs or "cost per mille" - what YT charges an advertiser for 1,000 views), which can cost anywhere from $.02 - .07 cents PER AD VIEW.
4. So if you're a video producer paying $.02 to advertise a video and the best you can do is earn $.003 cents - well - you can see where that is going.

In 2015, I spent nearly $6,000 promoting Evocronik on Facebook, primarily, because it's much easier to use their ad tools and target an audience. Evocronik got over 11,000 page likes. And thousands of video views. But then I realized that over HALF of my fans were non English speaking Portuguese from Brazil. Whoops! And those video views? Facebook counted counted 3 seconds as a view.... Not exactly the metrics I was hoping for. So now I make sure I get Portuguese subtitles for my videos - thankfully Youtube makes that really easy. And the videos, I'm whittling down to no more than a minute.

All of this is a long way of saying that getting a good video is only half the challenge. The much bigger challenge is bringing an audience to the work, and then monetizing that audience. Even with something that's GOOD, you still have to figure out how to get it in front of people. And there's so much content out there, I liken it to throwing a spit ball into a tornado.

In spite of all this, I'm still committed to the show. I'm hoping this year I can develop a big enough audience I can start selling subscriptions through the evocronik site, because that's where the money is.

Maybe by then we'll have physically-based rendering going on, and a rock-solid Perception Neuron integration. Oh yes, and that sticky customization feature I've been complaining about for CC.

Wouldn't that be nice?

Happy New Year Everybody! :)

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@Wendy
Great stuff, but can all the CC morphs be used over it and do the CC clothes still conform to the custom shape you import?

@urbanlamb
Just added you to my thread, I hope you like the generic description, I wasn't really sure what to put with you having such a diverse amount of stuff on your channel.
Anyway, off top watch that tutorial of your now!

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

@JC - i've put in a thesis worth of research into that area also....

I've come to the conclusion that the best way to capitalize on that scenario is to change your perception of it.
Instead of looking at it as a main stream of revenue, consider the intrinsic value of the marketing power that comes from being on the webs largest video platform, it's larger than traditional television.     When you consider that uploading and hosting a video for free, is already a massive advantage ( in contrast to pre-youtube, where you had to pay monthly to upload a video, and then get throttled for bandwidth - the more popular the video, the more expensive it became to host )

Today the game has changed, you actually get paid to market your work for free on the worlds largest video platform.

While this won't help you make more money on youtube, it will help you properly re-assess it's value to your workflow and utilize it more effectively.    Basically, don't work for youtube, let youtube work for you. Thinking like this should make you reconsider what kind of content you post, where it's posted and it's purpose. - it's the difference between throwing a dart at a bullseye, and throwing a rock into an ocean.

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

pumeco (1/10/2016)

@urbanlamb
Just added you to my thread, I hope you like the generic description, I wasn't really sure what to put with you having such a diverse amount of stuff on your channel.
Anyway, off top watch that tutorial of your now!

haha thanks

I just refer to myself as 'the old bag' :) so whatever is fine.

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/10/2016)

these guys have youtube figured out. https://www.youtube.com/user/simonscat/about

I am not into drawing revenue for things if i few pennies fall my way that is good I can put it back into more toys LOL but if you want to make a living from this stuff looking at youtube as a true full revenue stream in itself is probably a mistake. It has always been a piece of the pie even for the "big guys". I dont think drawing revenue of googles ads is a recipe for long term success. If it pays a few bills and helps you on the way that is fine. In the end most "successful" youtubers will tell you that as well.

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

yes, absolutely,   but trying to make youtube happy, is like trying to make the world happy - good luck with that lol...

if you put youtube in it's place, and focus on seeking out your niche outside of youtube, the youtubers who enjoy that niche will follow.
The youtube algorithm is a rich get richer scheme,   so if you can get a burst of attention on your video, it will help put you in a higher visibility bracket in youtube and naturally call the attention of others on youtube that are into your niche.

Focusing on youtube isn't the way, focusing on building your brand and honing in on your audience IS the way - but you don't do that by throwing rocks into the ocean - ie - trying to please youtube - aka the world ...... You do that by making videos for your favorite communities and forums, and catching youtube's attention from doing that effectively.

looking to work for youtube is an auto-fail process. - youtube is designed to seek out new viewers and rewards those who bring them in.

also, not all demographics pay the same, if you study your adsense, some of the ad's pay 70+ dollars pcm - if you wanted to make money, you would find those niche demographics that advertisers are willing to pay that amount of ad money.

But just making videos like ''yehaw" wont work, unless you are lucky, like justin beiber - but you can make more with the powerball lottery with those odds :w00t:

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@urbanlamb
Really, you don't sound like an old bag, I'd put your voice around 45 years :P

@Wendy
Ignore my questions, both were answered in the tutorial.

Wow, CC really is very nice, I was amazed that is still worked even after shortening the limbs!
Very tempted to buy now but I'll have to resist until iClone7 (renderer).

@JC
That looks pretty cool, can I add you to the Who's Who list?

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

here's an interesting case study on how to succeed in youtube,

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

pmaina (1/10/2016)

Bellatrix (1/10/2016)

As off today it will take longer, more brains more brute force labor to operate more external supplementary tools to produce a polished film of the same quality in iClone6 vs Source2

Indeed. When defining priorities, RL developers should wear a generalist producer's hat and map the production process to tool capabilities at each step of the production process (possibly innovating with shortcuts and EZ buttons that will disrupt the industry and bring about a new revolution with regards to production effort, time and cost).

Well summarized... I shall expand further... :)
warning to the forum: wall of text + hard-to-digest mind food coming...

RL will wear a CG generalist producer's hat when they see that MOST of their users are ready
Ready for the truth...
The game cinematic producer needs to wear multiple CG-disciplinary hats
Keyword: discipline. Not one, but multiple CG disciplines.
Currently, stagnation is the order of the day, for few reasons:
denial, lack of discipline, lack of perspective on which discipline should be next priority
not sure if an 'as above so below', or 'as the customers, so the tool maker' ;)

Recurring myth...iClone6 is the "3dsmax for the masses"
Truth...not even 15% capacity lol
Not to say, iClone6 won't one day get some UE4 modeling or Cryengine Cinebox voxel
Even then it's 18% 3dxmax.
But even today, iC6's main bragging points (Animation toolsets, Timeline) are not half way near Source 2012 or Cryeditor 2008!

RL's product dev looks like they're just throwing stuff on a buffet spread..
Yes the labeling is convoluted and self-sabotaging
But they are not trying to mislead the novice from believing in fantasy
They are just giving the market what the market SEEMS to want!

How does a buffet vendor get ACCURATE FEEDBACK? :)
the buffet vendor takes the cue from the leftovers.
And ACCURATE CUSTOMER FEEDBACK.
If most of the customers don't finished the best dishes (Substance power tools etc...)
If people only eat the fast food crap...and deny those are crap...
and never notice the advertised goodies are missing...well...
If more only a few people complain about food quality...lack of filling
If more people complain about having to GO TO DIFFERENT ROOMs to get drinks, utencils
When fewer fast food zombies bite or censor "demanding" customers
When fewer fast food addicts champion the greatness virtues of toxic sugar bombs...
Until then...

Why hyper-reactive fast good addicts trying to hide from...
Hard truths.

Technical Disciplines
Solo: Mastery of all trades: Writing/ Acting/ Multi CG/ AV Disciplines; time/ hardware/ software budget, in that order
Team: Jack of all trades: above CGAV disciplines, leadership, CASH, TIME to coordinate grunt workers

Creative Talent
Soloist: creative vision, narrative talent, musical ear, voice talent, self mastery
Team: creative vision, self mastery, a skilled community of CG generalists

For any Team producer, the task is daunting enough.
The solo producer...has to be a super-disciplined, multi-talented CREATIVE GENIUS
All need supportive family members ;)

A good number of users are saying here that they would like to have their entire 3D animation workflow in iClone. This is a huge long-term business opportunity for RL IMO if they can focus on enhancements that reduce reliance on third party tools.

IClone (even Source/ UE4/ Cinebox) is a mere subcategory under Multiple CG disciplines
Modeler
Sculptor
Texturing
UV
Rigger
Animator
Sequencer
Editor
Replicator
Shading
3dVFX
Rendering
Workflow design
Optimization mastery
Game engine specific pipeline processes
Etc
I'm not even going into AV technical specifics, or the HUGE Creative Talents areas
Just saying: for POLISHED 3D films (hyper-realism or not)
- the technical mountains alone remain under-estimated.
- even if iClone6 evolves to 30% Source SFM/ Cinebox capacity
users still have to drastically upgrade multiple CG disciplines!

RL is not fooling users with "we are the sub-$1000 3dsmax".
USERS ARE VERY CAPABLE OF FOOLING THEMSELVES! ;)

And, that is what Swoop has been whispering all along... :)
And what the time-rich one-trick-ponies are trying to deny and deny...
and why the fast food addicts kneejerk pull trigger on high skill CGgen messengers...

Priorities being efficient, team oriented workflow and face morphing (wide range of believable expressions. kill the zombie/robot look).

They could start with efficient...and a 90% functioning asset pipeline...

Efficiency, and Time, is the most under-estimated department.
the largest COST PERCEPTION GAP between iCloners and SFM users

Hobbyists - even the top 0.5% of the skilled hobbyists - have retiree time budget
Time-rich people are zen, and enjoy clicking 1 EZ button at a time, 23 clicks to switch a tv channel
Zen users don't know don't care about custom hotkey, macro, batching, LUA, or SDK
will gladly take 3 zzzzzen years to walk a zzzzombie eyes (with no shadow) actor from one room to another
just a get some fast food, brain-cell-killing dessert
and then act like some kind of RL zombie patriot, who just hate and bite fellow humans

Don't worry, this super quiet community is still alive, evidently ;)

One day...it will gain enough skilled rational customers and outnumber zzzzen users...
Then skilled HOBBY team will be possible
For now, there's always the cash + leadership + 85% external tools route

Meanwhile...
IClone6 face morphing still overshadowed by consumer toy sibling Crazytalk 7.
(Yes Daz3D & pro tool new arrivals, CT7 has better face morph workflow!)
FWIW I've made some suggestion for improving face morphing process

It's a huge image so I leave it as a link

image

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

JC Weatherby (1/10/2016)

In 2015, I spent nearly $6,000 promoting Evocronik on Facebook, primarily, because it's much easier to use their ad tools and target an audience. Evocronik got over 11,000 page likes. And thousands of video views. But then I realized that over HALF of my fans were non English speaking Portuguese from Brazil. Whoops! And those video views? Facebook counted counted 3 seconds as a view.... Not exactly the metrics I was hoping for. So now I make sure I get Portuguese subtitles for my videos - thankfully Youtube makes that really easy. And the videos, I'm whittling down to no more than a minute.

All of this is a long way of saying that getting a good video is only half the challenge. The much bigger challenge is bringing an audience to the work, and then monetizing that audience. Even with something that's GOOD, you still have to figure out how to get it in front of people. And there's so much content out there, I liken it to throwing a spit ball into a tornado.

Happy new year JC Weatherby! I stopped advertising on Facebook due to similar challenges, Youtube Trueview ads seem like a much beter option. My strategy is to use no more than $100 for a test campaign then i switch it off. If the video has viral features, I expect the viewership numbers to continue on their own. If they dont, I pull the plug.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/10/2016)

I totally agree. I see youtube as a runway to test the airworthiness of a video. You pay only for ads (fuel) necessary to clear the runway, after that the video should show signs of taking off by itself (with increasingly less fuel) if its viral enough. Otherwise, accept that its not the hit you thought it will be and get back to the creative drawing board to come up with a better version of the same - or something totally different.

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

urbanlamb (1/10/2016)
these guys have youtube figured out. https://www.youtube.com/user/simonscat/about

Indeed! 700 Million views is no joke. I look at it differently. To me its proof that it CAN be done. I have seen channels with over 1 Billion views as well. The thing about youtube is we all get an equal chance. No excuses about Million dollar marketing budgets of the big studios.

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/10/2016)

yes, absolutely, but trying to make youtube happy, is like trying to make the world happy - good luck with that lol...

Can't agree more...

The youtube algorithm is a rich get richer scheme

Not that different from traditional music industry 'winner takes all' algorithm...is it?

Focusing on youtube isn't the way, focusing on building your brand and honing in on your audience IS the way - but you don't do that by throwing rocks into the ocean

But just making videos like ''yehaw" wont work, unless you are lucky, like justin beiber - but you can make more with the powerball lottery with those odds :w00t:

What's luck got to do with Miley's success?
Kardashian and Kanye are the new gods of artistic expression!
And Pewdiepie? One calculative cunning bedroom marketing genius! :)
Or is he?

I like this thread, it is so all-encompassing, almost impossible to be OT ;)

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (1/10/2016)

many good comments here (particularly on the basics of just good storytelling, which by far trumps any technical limitations ANY software might have)

I held myself back from elaborating on story telling
The alpha and the omega of iClone conception
The whole reason why I put myself through the hell of technical disciplines
To tell stories.

One can be a master tech smith of Max/Maya/C4D
or CG gen masters of Source/ CE/ UE/ Unity
They may not know how to tell a simple story
Never mind a good story

Story telling is like MBA for CG generalist
CG Generalist with semi-mastery of multiple CG disciplines = University level
iClone users are mostly CG high school kids (imaginative, fantasy prone, potential creative geniuses)
but also have limited attentions span and possibly, button/ slider numbers phobia
Narrative structures...huh....zzzzzzz...
JUST GIMME EYEBALLS and LIKES!!! :)
Right now the obsession is YouTube eyeballs and fantasy $ numbers
Something for nothing...

Hopefully soon, the various ceilings will become clear...
After that, the issue of Originality and Voice will emerge...
Then perhaps there's a point to talk narrative structures
IF iClone's university wing will ever complete

Back to Jlaw vs Hathaway and female body parts shock values! ;)

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/10/2016)

i find it curious that when it comes to render quality, that for the most part, most animators bee-line for hyper realism.

Another good point being raised.

Hyper-realism, and "science fiction" problem.
Most CG novice have no idea how much work 3D production is.
3D movies is hard enough for traditional tools, Max Maya C4D Blender.
3D movies are even harder to make in game engines!

To be fair, most game dev novice also have no idea how much work their cool "Sci-Fi hyper realism game" is
Until 20% of the way, when they hit multiple technical ceilings
But at least game devs are techies, HAVE TIME CONSTRAIN
so they hit the ceilings earlier
which allow them to change course earlier

ICloners with hyper-realism amazing vision project have no idea what is going to hit them 15% down the road...
They will take their sweet hobbyist time...one EZ button at a time...
By that time the Truths arrive, they have over-invested in the wrong stuff.

If I could, I would advice most iCloners to stick with CrazyAnimator.
Especially those who think critique of shadow fails are being fussy...
And definitely, those who cannot see their shadow fails!
Like American idol singer who cannot hear their tone deafness...
And try to kill Simon Cowell for not praising them... :)

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

Bellatrix (1/11/2016)

The game cinematic producer needs to wear multiple CG-disciplinary hats
...
For any Team producer, the task is daunting enough.
The solo producer...has to be a super-disciplined, multi-talented CREATIVE GENIUS
All need supportive family members ;)

Efficiency, and Time, is the most under-estimated department.

Absolutely! Not only that, the skillset needs to extend beyond CG technique into visual storytelling (general film making) skills & editing skills. This is MASSIVE amount of knowledge that only very few highly talented individuals can master on their own - and even then, as you very rightly put it, the time/effort element will hold back even the most talented from producing anything that is perceived as a fairly credible shot by the global; film making community.

Solution: RL to expand vision of iClone to include team workflows & collaboration. Urging RL to kindly consider giving us the power of parallel workflows via a Server Based iClone "Enterprise" so we can organize as teams working on a single iClone project over a LAN. Its amazing that iClone is so ripe for this and RL is not capitalizing!

RL's product dev looks like they're just throwing stuff on a buffet spread..
...
How does a buffet vendor get ACCURATE FEEDBACK? :)

Very essential question that RL should consider. What does the customer use the tool for and why is the customer asking for what he/she wants? How does it play into the strategic direction of the software? How do you weigh customer request - is it by the loudest voice or is there a strategic path to which requests need to be aligned in order to get priority. How valid and how current is the strategy?

Time-rich people are zen, and enjoy clicking 1 EZ button at a time, 23 clicks to switch a tv channel
Zen users don't know don't care about custom hotkey, macro, batching, LUA, or SDK
will gladly take 3 zzzzzen years to walk a zzzzombie eyes (with no shadow) actor from one room to another
just a get some fast food, brain-cell-killing dessert
and then act like some kind of RL zombie patriot...

I wonder how sustainable it is to please this time-rich demographic while still aspiring to win acceptance in the pro / semipro / serious hobbyist community (that values Time & Efficiency above many many things).

IClone6 face morphing still overshadowed by consumer toy sibling Crazytalk 7.
(Yes Daz3D & pro tool new arrivals, CT7 has better face morph workflow!)

The good news is that RL has developed the technology and all they need to do now is to organize it for more intuitive and sensible workflow. Instead of multiple tools, have one server based multi-user tool!

FWIW I've made some suggestion for improving face morphing process

Would love to hear RL's comments regarding the many well argued suggestions that have been put forward in this thread.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

Bellatrix Wrote:
"RL is not fooling users with "we are the sub-$1000 3dsmax".
USERS ARE VERY CAPABLE OF FOOLING THEMSELVES! ;)

And, that is what Swoop has been whispering all along... :)
And what the time-rich one-trick-ponies are trying to deny and deny...
and why the fast food addicts kneejerk pull trigger on high skill CGgen messengers..."

Just in case that one was aimed at me, there's two things I should point out :
- What I said to sw00000p wasn't knee-jerk reaction, it was a considered and factual remark (The likes of Max and Maya are designed for teamwork production, iClone is designed for the individual).
- Anyone who knows what iClone is capable of isn't fooling themselves of anything (I choose iClone over the likes of Max and Maya because it's a more productive, accessible tool for the individual).

I had, and sold, high-end packages so it's not as if I'm not aware of what those things are capable of (and I've been playing with CG for quite a while now). I agree with sw00000p in that iClone needs a curve editor, but what it also needs, is a way to keyframe all those sliders in CC, after all, we already have CC so that essentially makes it only a half-baked feature of the program right now. So it's not that I don't agree with what the high-end users say, it's just that their priorities are often screwed-up for a program like iClone. Having those CC sliders keyframable is going to be much more useful than a curve editor, even though a curve editor is desperately needed as well. And then there is the need to understand the iClone users, a market where quick and easy is an attraction, but it seems sw00000p would be happy to see mouse-driven animation go out of the window.

If mouse driven animation ever disappeared from iClone I'd drop it like a bad smell, cause it's one of the features that make it fast and easy to work with. I'd rather move a mouse around than mess around with doing it manually, so again, it's all about understanding the market and how people use it. A much better suggestion was treacle, because all iCloners use mouse-based movement. The problem is that the feature we all use in iClone is not refined enough to look professional, hence the requirement for treacle. It's about getting the right features for the product and understanding why people need certain things. It's no secret that Reallusion themselves messed-up big-time when they spent time and resources messing around with Indigo. The result of that bad decision can be seen all over the forum.

Whine whine whine ... WTF ... this is supposed to be realtime!!! ... that sort of thing.
So it's not just users who don't always consider the role of the program, sometimes Reallusion themselves slip-up too.

Does that mean Indigo was a bad idea? No, of course not, it just means it was a bad idea to prioritise it over getting the realtime renderer up to date, cause iClone is about features relevant to realtime (not snailtime). So as far as I'm concerned, the Max and Maya addicts can whine their heads off, I couldn't care less what they're whining about unless it is relevant to a product like iClone. For Max and Maya addicts, there is Max and Maya, but I want iClone to be focused only on well-designed and implemented "realtime" tools. I doubt I'm the only one here who hopes that the whole Indigo thing has taught Reallusion a lesson or two (iClone is for realitme, so naturally that's what it's userbase expects of it).

- Curves?
- Yes please, but not prioritised over being able to keyframe the CC dials we already have (it's an animation package for crying out loud).

- Indigo?
- Awesome, but it's not realtime so it's a waste of time, they could have added something useful to realtime instead, like adding treacle to the mouse recording system.

- Stability?
- Essential, otherwise everything else is pointless.

- High Quality Realtime Renderer?
- Cannot come soon enough, biggest barrier by far in iClone as a moviemaking tool when you consider that everything we do in iClone has to be seen!

PRIORITIES, COMMON SENSE PRIORITIES!

:Whistling::Whistling::Whistling:

:P

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

seriously though, if they fixed indigo to render animation efficiently, it would blow iray away, i was just playing with iray before, it's insanely slow! Indigo isn't bad, the workflow to render animation is bad, i'm enjoying the indigo stills very much and they render out pretty fast for me. - so I can't agree with it being a disaster, that is not completely true for me, granted i would like animation too though. So i can't fully disagree. what reallusion needs to do is stop introducing new elements till they fix all the kinks and bugs. lots of great stuff in the software now plagued with bugs and limitations!

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/efe986ae-c19b-4263-bdc9-9d0f.png

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

It's awesome Ricky, but you're forgetting priorites!

Indigo is great, but it should not have been prioritised over the realtime renderer cause iClone is about "realtime" production.
If Indigo was realtime I'd be using it myself right now, but unfortunately it isn't.

I would have at least some love for Indigo if it were built in to the iClone viewport, but it isn't even that.

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

the regular renderer did get better but they'd have to go to a linear workflow to get the look you want. ( as originally pointed out by Grabiller )
the only reason I don't jump for that idea, is not knowing the repercussions of such a move. it's apparently more complex than it seems because i do believe reallusion would have done it already. something about such a change made someone cringe at reallusion lol.

it's one of those things that seems easy enough to change in theory, but in reality it causes a domino effect with the lighting and texture system. remember, originally they announced pbr for iclone 6.5 - and then they ran faster than a chicken with it's feathers on fire from the topic, ....something spooked them about it!! My guess is lighting and textures and all the merchandise made for a non linear workflow.

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

pumeco (1/11/2016)

Nope...definitely not aiming at you and anyone specific...
"all along" is more "over a long long period on this forum space", definitely not "here and now in this thread"
not even referring to really skilled, really creative one-trick-ponies here or elsewhere
but hyper-reactive over-defensive one-trick-ponies in iClone space
who attack "RL criticizing" iCloners usually on the fake pretext of patriotism
or poopoo other CG disciplines (modeling sculpting rigging rendering) on the basis of their one-trick (greatest animation skill ever)
etc ;)

Oh, btw I also think mouse puppetering is intuitive and under-estimated
iClone puppet sets needs drastic upgrade
Yes even if I wish they continue to develop Indigo
I will agree native render can be streamlined further
after all I'm here for realtime workflow
I only encourage that more realtimers push the limits of native renderer so RL has no excuse to stall progress

still it is not a curve editor vs puppeteering thing
or Indigo vs Native render thing
or ZBrush vs whatever sculptor, Max vs iClone thing
The black OR white, all or nothing kind of battles is counter-productive to community evolution
it's time to not see threats anywhere

Swoop/ punchy talkers including my straight-talking self do get flake for not mincing words
Do take into consideration...
Skilled CG users criticize each other's work with far harsher tones
and then we thank each other for the generosity
(visit CG pros forums like polygon.com or ZBrush forums sometimes)
Try to focus on positive traits (still rare around here)
Notice it's the skilled users who are capable of apologies and giving credit where it's due
With self-respect, comes respect for others
and low reactivity...

But carry on your debate with Swoop... :)
Cheers

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@Ricky
I had a feeling something might be spooking them, I also had a feeling that Indigo could be their way of compensating for it (at least for the time being).
Sorry to hear it, but it's something they're going to have to grit their teeth and bear it - they have to sort it out.

I'm not a programmer so I have no idea of the implications, but in laymans terms, I don't understand why implementing Unreal Engine for example would be a problem. Reallusion already had the good sense to add Substance support, and Unreal supports that perfectly. Add to that the Unreal Licence Agreement is perfect for iClone, then all you're left with is coding the connections between iClone and Unreal Engine, bringing it into the viewport. It's not like Reallusion would have to concern themselvs with the engine itself, Epic see to that, that's their job, it's what they're good at.

If it really is a problem though, then Reallusion really should instead tackle the current renderer in an iClone 6.5 update :

- If they added good reflection, that would help massively.
- If they added blurred reflection control to the reflection, it would allow sophisticated surfaces, it would even be possible to fake very nice global illumination effects (providing it blurs enough).
- If they added a volumetric atmosphere, that would put the look on a whole new level.

So if they at least fixed those for now, and added keyframing to the CC dials (cause it's a bit pointless not being able to keyframe the dials), then personally I'd be tempted to buy a copy of iClone6.5. No matter what though, they have to do something about the state of reflections in iClone cause it's just completely unacceptable to have such limitations in 2016. Even DX9 does nice reflections, so there's no excuse for this in a DX11 renderer. It should also be capable of doing a mirror without that pixelation problem.

If they added stuff like that, it gives them plenty of time to play around with a new renderer, and in the meatime, make a heck of a lot more people happy with the current one.

By sbaerman - 9 Years Ago

Hi all,

I think, that Iclones renderer for realtime is pretty ok and sufficient. I don't need anything better to observe how an animation is working out or not. It would be great to have a rendering solution for the final version then (for export) directly from Iclone that can achieve something like 1-5 sec per frame on a decent machine. That would make a 1 minute video in 1-4h. I can wait that long for a good quality. As mentioned before Indigo 3.8 is no real feasible solution for 5 reasons :

a) There is a bug in the Iclone exporter to Indigo that makes the computer crash for heavy scenes (e.g. if you export the abandoned house scene from Iclone) it will fail after 70-150 frames in the exporting process
b) The exporter produces pretty heavy files (which is ok, but it needs extra handling effort)
c) The Iclone Export plugin is relatively slow depending on heavier scenes. Eg. the abandoned house scene needs roughly 1h for exporting 100 frames
d) Indigo rendering speed is limited for multiple frames, even in a mini render farm, you need time and even if you can afford multiple machines, not to foget the costs
of energy if you have 5 Machines running full steam that can be easily 1$/h. Now it seems they develop a version 4 currently, which is supposed to be much faster
and fully support GPUs. Maybe this will speed up speed 5-10 times.

e) Different behavior between Indigo and Iclone to handle light. e.g. lights become visible in indigo, whilst not visible in Iclone (there is a workaround, as Indigo handles self illumination differently), but this also needs continuos test renders to compare what you animate in Iclone and how it looks in Indigo.

Summary :
- The best option would be, if Reallusion can either improve the internal render engine
- or at least would program it's own Render-Engine as a plugin in that does not need to achieve Indigos quality but achieves a good relationship between time and quality (and they could charge a premium for that :-), instead of giving the business to Indigo :-)

My 20 cents.

By sbaerman - 9 Years Ago

planetstardragon (1/11/2016)

the regular renderer did get better but they'd have to go to a linear workflow to get the look you want. ( as originally pointed out by Grabiller )

Hi planetsardragon, I think the render in IClone did not improve since version 4. When Iclone6 came out, I did render some scenes in 5.5 and then in 6 and it was exactly the same result.
What has changed is the quality of the content. Avatars nowadays look much better due to higher polygon count and nicer textures etc. But at the end it is still the same engine running in behind then for Iclone4. It's the content that makes it much better. Imagine now Iclone with an up to date render engine ! WOW !

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
No, I'm not confused, I know what I bought into iClone for and that's the bottom line here (what I bought it for).
What I bought it for is it's realtime production qualities.

If there are limitations then they need to look at the current renderer and fix that up instead of wasting precious time on non-realtime stuff like Indigo.
Priorities ... sw00000pie baby ... priorities :Wow::P

@Bellatrix
Yeah, well you still sound as if you're having a sly crack at me, made all the more amusing by the fact that neither yourself or sw00000p have a clue as to my animation or general CG abilities :D
I could be crap, but then again I might not mind being crap :w00t:

There's even sw00000p who thinks SSS would be too much for me to handle, not realising that I created a perfeclty believable SSS in a renderer that didn't have the feature around 10 years ago!
Back then, most people didn't even know what SSS was, they'd never heared of it, didn't stop me from creating my own effort :laugh:

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

pumeco (1/11/2016)

@Bellatrix
Yeah, well you still sound as if you're having a sly crack at me, made all the more amusing by the fact that neither yourself or sw00000p have a clue as to my animation or general CG abilities :D
I could be crap, but then again I might not mind being crap :w00t:

Me, sly cracks? Nah.... ;)
Me, straight slaps to stupid attackers, totally. :)
Seriously, nope, not at anyone, certainly not you - you're so right I've no clue to your skills (or anything about you)
In fact I haven't even read your debate with Swoop!
There are more important things I need to attend to now so excuse moir
Peace and light etc :)

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

pmaina (1/11/2016)

Bellatrix (1/11/2016)
[quote]
Time-rich people are zen, and enjoy clicking 1 EZ button at a time, 23 clicks to switch a tv channel
Zen users don't know don't care about custom hotkey, macro, batching, LUA, or SDK

I wonder too...
Is pushing content to users with no time constrain a sustainable thing?
How much will non-commercial users invest in their hobby projects, plugins or content?
Which market is more expensive/ higher maintenance - novice users or pro users?
Which demographics is more growth-fostering to the whole organism?
Etc...

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
Yeah but what's so hard about what I just asked ... what?

- Fix reflections in the curent renderer (was possible even with DX9 technology).
- Add adjustable Blurred Reflections (was possible even with DX9 technology).
- Add keyframing for the dials (it's not rocket science).
- Add Treacle to make mouse recordings look infinitely more professional.

What ... whats so hard about any of that, sw00000pie?

And like I said earlier, it's mainly a case of breaking down technical barriers, and those above are barriers that are easily breakable, so why not break them and sell more copies of iClone in a 6.5 release?
It's not rocket science stuff, sw00000p, no matter what way you look at it or no matter what the reason!

Believe me, nothing I'd like better than to buy I copy of iClone and support development, but I'm not supporting stuff that isn't giving me what I need.

- Character creator is awesome but let down by lack of keyframing the sliders (an easy fix)!
- Current reflection is crap, let down further by not having a blur control and not even fixing it (an easy fix)!
- Mouse-recorded movement looks robotic, let down by lack of adjustable treacle (an easy fix)!
- Cloth is awesome, let down by lack of an in-built tool for painting live dynamic maps (an easy fix)!

As for learning blender, I'm always learning blender, cause blender is going to be my salvation if Reallusion don't wake-up and start prioritising what needs prioritising in iClone. I would much rather work in iClone because I love the way they've designed it. Reallusion are truly top-dog when it comes to designing an accessible product. I just wish they'd start prioritising based on what the program is all about, and where it is lacking. It's not impossible for them to do that in iClone 6.5, so hopefully they will - I'd buy in a heartbeat if only they fixed the above :)

Anyway, just going round in circles here, but that's the way I see things personally.

@Bellatrix
No worries ;)

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

pumeco (1/11/2016)

Indigo is great, but it should not have been prioritised over the realtime renderer cause iClone is about "realtime" production.

Personally, I am not to keen on a real time renderer. I think it would be a distraction for RL and, like swoop alludes, possibly a waste of time and resources for RL to reinvent the wheel.

Would rather have:
1. Predictable mapping of lighting/materials etc so you know that a "look" achieved in iClone will render as you want it (not necessarily as it looks in iClone).
2. Options for render especially if such options result in highly efficient utilization of available parallel computing power (GPUs & Muticore CPUs). I don't like buying hardware that is underutilized.
3. Renderer that predicts how long it will take to render a scene at specified quality levels before I start rendering - with option to increase/lower the quality.
4. Ability to pause-suspend (save "state" to hard drive) & resume rendering (even after reboot of render machine)
etc.

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

I would be happy just to have a spherical camera and image series with alpha channel instead of video files for textures etc, I use both those features to composite a lot in Carrara already and would do so in iClone too, I do now but it means a heap of video files including black and white masking ones for alpha channels we have an image layer feature, image series would make it so much more useful.

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

And looping gifs with alpha
Sooo useful for billboards
If the grass brush could load them we could paint proper crowds, not just swaying cut outs, they could move

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

pumeco (1/11/2016)

- Character creator is awesome but let down by lack of keyframing the sliders
- Current reflection is crap, let down further by not having a blur control and not even fixing it
- Mouse-recorded movement looks robotic, let down by lack of adjustable treacle
- Cloth is awesome, let down by lack of an in-built tool for painting live dynamic maps

These points I support 100%

By pmaina - 9 Years Ago

If RL does enhance the renderer, I hope they will include Match Moving / Camera tracking features as well. The better the render quality the more there will be need for such features.

By Bellatrix - 9 Years Ago

wendyluvscatz (1/11/2016)

And looping gifs with alpha
Sooo useful for billboards
If the grass brush could load them we could paint proper crowds, not just swaying cut outs, they could move

Both high on my wanted list...

I've asked for a iSpeedTree in the customer feedback email
Basically a SpeedTree plugin for iClone, like SpeedTree for UE4
Custom anything...spray gazebos or bus stops, snap to terrain
Output only usable within iClone, so it won't cost as much as other SpeedTree plugin
It will be iClone's own replicator
even as a 3D particles alternative
Having true instancing will save SO MUCH render resources
And brushing instances will be so FUN too...

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@pmaina
I'm glad someone agrees with me, was beginning to think I might be retarded for wanting this essential stuff :P

@Wendy
Don't know if it would work, but if you look into using chrome spheres as probes, you might be able to fake that spherical lens effect using Indigo :w00t:

@sw00000p
I could be wrong (and probably am), but I think what happened is that Reallusion overestimated how long they could get away with their current realtime renderer. If a whole new realtime renderer is off the cards for the time being, then they desperately need to do something about reflections and add stuff like blurred reflections (and blurred refractions if possible) to the current realtime renderer. Adding blurred reflections opens up a whole world of possibilities, not just in the surfacing, but also the lighting of a scene. They might seem like just another innocent feature, but blurred reflections (especially when added with blurred transparency), can create a whole manner of stuff that isn't immediately obvious. You can do anything from illuminating a room to creating fake SSS skin, all because those essentials are there to be used in inventive ways.

But without them, if they're not there to be used, you're left with what we have right now ... and it's not pretty :(

By thedirector1974 - 9 Years Ago

15 pages of discussion about pro tools, render quality ... we need this, we need that ...
I watched that steam movie from the initial post and it has it's qualities. That's for sure. I am really sure i could this redo in iClone and you won't see much difference. Some lighting would differ and some animations would be not as smooth as it is seen in this little movie. But i think iClone 6 could get there.

I am working on my first iClone 6 movie. And it will be a real movie, not such clips like - a person walks from A to B ...
Here are two screens. This is the unaltered render which i get from iClone 6. Decide for yourself ...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73498405/bild05_0200207.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73498405/bild06_0100332.jpg

Direx

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

@sw00000p
Sorry, I don't see what the problem is with adding working reflections to a DX11 renderer, I mean bloody hell, even every DX9 renderer I know of had it over a decade ago :Wow:

There are endless products out there, both paid and free that have no problem implementing it. The only thing it would cost Reallusion is to give it the priority it needs and to sit down and code it into iClone. But what you're saying here is that I'm being unrealistic to expect reflections in iClone's realtime renderer. lol, I hate to break this to you sw00000p, but I'm a fraid reflections are a major part of visuals in moviemaking, whether that be real-world or CG. The reason is because reflections are a big part of the real world too, sw00000pie baby :D

OMG, I just realised this is one of those hidden camera shows isn't it, go on admit it sw00000pie, you're just pulling my leg now :w00t:
Stop it, dammit, it tickles :D

@Rene
Looks aweseome as always with you, still need reflections in the renderer though :cool:

By JC Weatherby - 9 Years Ago

@Planetstardragon - "Paid to market work for free." That's a good way of looking at it.

@Urbanlamb - As far as virality goes... Admittedly, what I'm doing is outside the envelope of what's 'mainstream' on Youtube. If it's not music or humor or something reality based that shocks or inspires an instant emotional payoff, it isn't 'popular.' All of the top channels are musicians or talking heads or PewDiePie. Simon's Cat is probably the top film/animation channel...

I am not in that field... It just doesn't interest me at all. What I'm trying to do is take the idea of the newspaper comic strip or comic book and serialize a story with animation, combined with adult drama and absurd humor, and do a science fiction show - which if you look on Google Trends is not a high volume search term, even though Star Wars 7 is the highest grossing film, now, and the cable 9-10 o'clock hour is littered with psychopaths, dragons, sexually abused ballerinas, extreme violence, gore and kinky sex. By contrast "Evocronik," marketed and distributed via social media, which has a perverse fixation with cat videos and Minecraft, is a tough sell. Haha. The big problem I have is people just don't expect to see this kind of content on Social, and I haven't yet told enough of the story for people to really get what it is. But when I look at the metrics, I see - yes, over 50% of people who see one of the videos on a page or as an ad click to watch it, and as long as I keep the videos short, the rate of retention is about 50% as well. Obviously I want to boost that as well as engagement overall. The advantage I have is that I can develop this over time, so I'm not worried about making a one-off video and hoping that it hits. We'll see. Doing this work is what I love most.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

JC Weatherby (1/11/2016)... and the cable 9-10 o'clock hour is littered with psychopaths, dragons, sexually abused ballerinas, extreme violence, gore and kinky sex.
By contrast "Evocronik" ...

By contrast Evocronik ... what was that?

The first video I watched of yours the other day featured gore, there was a guy dipping his hand into someone's side if I recall, so what's the difference? Seems odd that you crearte that in the video but don't want to publicise that aspect of it. If the whole idea of an advertising campaign is to get people to watch it, and gore is a crowd-puller, what are you waiting for, and perhaps more importantly, why on earth are you paying for advertising? There's a reason for all that stuff being on the 9-10, it's becuase like it or not, it pulls-in the viewers. If it didn't, trust me they'd filling the news with whatever did.

Personally, if I wanted to publicise a specific type of series, I'd really go to work on getting it noticed among communities that are specifically into the stuff I'm producing. The funny thing is, you're paying for ads that aren't going to be as effective as free publicity would be in the right place, so even if it starts to take off, you still have that money to make back before you even start to break even. Swallow your pride, and realise why the saying "sex sells" is a popular one. I even penned a term myself long ago - it's called 'Boardroom Syndrome' and you suffer from it just as many do.

Boardroom Syndrome is the practice of over-analyzing to the point that the result is not effective - picture this ...

There's a huge corporation having a meeting around their fancy boardroom table, it's a meeting to discuss what they should put on the front of their Woodworking magazine, something to make it stand out on the shelves. The CEO spends a fortune, pays for all his top executives to be there on time, pays their hotels, pays for a fancy projector to look at, has the cleaner come and polish everything before it starts, even pays for them all a fancy lunch before and after the meeting - all done proper like. So the meeting starts, they're sat around that boardroom table for hours analyzing this, analyzing that, wondering what would be a really clever way to make their Woodworking magazine stand out. They can't come to a conclusion cause at the end of the day, a fancy peice of woodwork is a fancy piece of woodwork - that's all it will ever be. But then the coffee-boy walks in to take away the empty cups, and sees them all sat around looking really pissed off cause the meeting was a disaster.

So he dares to ask them ... "Hey guys, what's up? You're all looking pretty fed-up - hahaha!!!"

They tell him they haven't managed to come up with something good enough for the cover of the magazine, so it's not looking good for the company.
He just laughs and says ... "Guys, just stick a big-titted bimbo on the front sucking seductively on the head of a hammer - that'll shift a few copies!!!"

And yes, you guessed it, they do exactly that and the magazine sells like no Woodworking magazine has ever sold before!
Boardroom Syndrome ... JC ... it's something you're suffering from and it's pointlessly expensive too.

So yup, I'll stick to psychopaths, abused ballerinas, kinky sex, babes and whatever else draws the crowds - I want sales after all ;)

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

JC Weatherby, I quite liked your animation Evocronik,
but
and it is a big annoying but
You spend too much on each video doing the promo bit and that is downright off putting, I just want to watch the story.
I do not want to criticise anyones work especially when it is very professionally made but its sort of like the youtube ads, the bit you want to skip and since you spent $6K on promoting your work you say, it would be a pity if the "promo" bit was the thing limiting views.

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

For what it's worth, I have no idea why the videos that get the views on my channel do
I would never watch such utter crap myself
The ones I actually put a lot of work into get very few views

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

duplicate

By urbanlamb - 9 Years Ago

wendyluvscatz (1/12/2016)

for longer videos that are for entertainment I now use the rule that a lot do where you find some of the most interesting bits of the movie/video and put 10-15 seconds at the front. Maybe I will put some basic intro afterwards like.. the title (10 seconds max) and then get into the video. They do this on television as well and it works well. Some shows now burry the intro title stuff almost 15 minutes into the show so I guess I take a page from the books of those shows and I like it that way. I still do the intro thing often in a short video, but I decided with longer videos that are for entertainment 20+ minutes I always put either some outtakes that I cut or some actual footage burried in an action scene from the movie that people will likely forget before they get to it again lol. I have shortenend all my title intros now regardless of where i put them I leave all the rest for the end since really no one is gonna watch it anyhow and its just there for my own recollection :)

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

"cable 9-10 o'clock hour is littered with psychopaths, dragons"

-cough cough- you make that sound like a bad thing!! ^.^

By justaviking - 9 Years Ago

urbanlamb (1/12/2016)

And movie "trailers" were born.... :)

It's a lot easier to be patient for a longer video when; a) You are already interested before you press "Play," and b) You know it's going to be more than 2 minutes long.

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

Yes that is the point, if I like something in a series I wil hit play all but not if littered with promo stuff
One solution is youtube creator video editor, you can combine all your episodes and edit out repeated promos, credits etc

By wendyluvscatz - 9 Years Ago

Duplicate

By planetstardragon - 9 Years Ago

slightly off topic, but still in the ballpark lol....

I just found this gem on youtube, they took 125 people, 9 months to finish a 6 minute cartoon!!
would they call us spoiled, or would they say "That's not real animation!" ?

Just listening to Mel on this video, made me realize they could have done this with crayons and still been a huge success because of mel's genius!

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

wendyluvscatz (1/12/2016)

For what it's worth, I have no idea why the videos that get the views on my channel do
I would never watch such utter crap myself
The ones I actually put a lot of work into get very few views

During that discussion the other day I wondered to myself what it was (in a psychological sense) that draws people to your style of videos. The only conclusion I could come to is that the harder it is for whoever watches your video to do what you did, the more they appreciate what you did. The chances are that your biggest fans are people who are mindstuck at what you put out, cause they're incapable of doing it. Same with me, your videos fascinate me cause I could never do that. So while on a technical front a lot of them are crap, they're still quality in their own sense. If I said 'quality crap', that would be wrong cause it can't be crap if you've managed to carve out a niche for yourself, and at the end of the day, that's exactly what you've done.

There's going to be people who look at your work and the amount of views you get and think, that sucks, why am I bothering?
All it means is that they haven't realised the importance of doing something different.

So that's psycho-pumeco's diagnosis of Wendyism; The more obsessed a person is with making something look right, the more fascinated they are with work which appears to do the opposite.
This would also explain why your "crap" videos get more attention than the ones you put time into, your fans can pick-up on this cause you're taking away the Wendyism.

By pumeco - 9 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/12/2016)

Sad, but many enjoy "Others" misery!

Not true, swwwwwwwww00000pie baby .... Muahahaha ... Hahahahahaha ... Mwaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahah ...

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/0b21edca-64da-4763-b852-a892.jpg