|
By genao87 - 10 Years Ago
|
the new Poser version came out recently and it is Poser 11. i was interested in the learning curve when compare to Iclone. i did a search in this forum and it gave me a thread that was years old which compare a much older Poser version.
anybody familiar with Poser? the learning curve when it comes in Iclone is not big and you can catch on quick..especially with animation. im interested in Poser because its render has raytrace and produces much realistic results.
|
|
By Grimhilda - 10 Years Ago
|
|
You can bring a character into an Iclone project and choose 'Edit Motion Layer' to pose it. You can change a character's proportions using sliders in Character Creator. Essentially these manipulations of characters are what Poser was designed for - as well as adding clothing, hair and prop items before rendering them in a scene. Now, there is much, much more to Poser than the above but it isn't primarily an animation program - even though some absolutely wonderful animations have been created with it. I like Poser very much, though I'm still pretty much a beginner with it. I recently bought Poser 2014 - the Pro version because Poser 10 was 32-bit but I'm too new with it to wish to move to Poser 11 just yet. I can't speak for Poser 11 but the versions I bought came with an excellent manual, tutorials within the program itself, a quick-start guide and there are tons of tutorials online.
Just as in Iclone you need to know about imotions, iprops, etc. there is a whole world of Poser terminology relating to file-types for poses and so on and also for the composition of the characters.
Many people seem to dislike Poser, which I haven't understood - although the free DAZ alternative has many attractive features and generally better figures. Both DAZ and Poser have huge content markets catering to every genre. It's possible to spend a lot but prop items bought can be used in Iclone via 3DXchange. At one time Poser and DAZ Studio, as well as Carrara could use each others' figures with only a few texture tweaks needed (so I believe). Now Poser's newest figures don't work well or at all (?) in DAZ Studio. DAZ's figures are seemingly becoming very difficult to use in Poser (I believe, but stand to be corrected). To use Poser, Carrara and DAZ together, it is probably best to stick with the older Generation 4 figures. Poser figures can be used within Bryce landscapes for static renders but can be Posed for animation in some versions of Vue. Vue's landscapes are probably second to none but it takes a lot of computing power to use, it can get to be very expensive and can only be used with Poser if both (memory intensive) programs are open simultaneously.
When alternatives to Iclone are explored, it has to be said that Iclone has a lot going for it!
Lastly, it seems that nothing new has been added to Poser's animation tools over the last few releases. Perhaps you could pick up a copy of an earlier version than version 11. That new version will have teething problems, for sure, until service packs are released.
|
|
By Rampa - 10 Years Ago
|
One of the main DAZ programmers recently hired-on at Smith Micro. He is the one revitalizing Poser.
I would find as many video tutorials on the animation features as I could. I do know that the timeline is actually pretty good, and has both a dope sheet and curve editor. Poser has physics, but is not real-time.
I wanted to play with the new version, but they do not have a demo available. The specs say that GPU rendering for Cycles is only available with "Pro". Basic can still use Cycles (they call it "Superfly"), just not GPU accelerated.
|
|
By Grimhilda - 10 Years Ago
|
Hi Rampa,
I really enjoy animating characters in Poser - somehow there is an 'ease of use' in adjusting poses that I don't find in Carrara, or DAZ Studio but which is comparable to Iclone. The difference isn't great but for me it's real enough! The walk designer works well and there is a new, third-party program being written for Poser that will transform normal dynamic clothing into physics-enabled cloth comparable to Marvelous Designer output. The program will turn Poser mesh-based hair into moving, colliding hair also.
Personally, I've always wanted to get the best I can both out of Carrara and Iclone and Poser sits somewhere in the middle. If I ever embark on my Great Work, I'll be hard-pressed whether to go for Iclone or else Carrara with Physics clothing exported from Poser. (Perhaps you could guess that I recently checked out Vue and rejected it for the reasons given ). This being Reallusion's forum, I want to say nothing negative about Iclone. I'm buying into it as much as I can afford and am loving what people are doing with it. I'd recommend it to anyone starting out in 3D.
PS I read so many of your posts from the sidelines - your help is much appreciated. The same could be said to a good number of others who are much more frequent posters than I am. Thanks all!
|
|
By genao87 - 10 Years Ago
|
so it is still limiting in its animation. i am shocked that the fan made video Dead Fantasy was created in Poser....a much older version. How the hell was he able to do this in Poser...I AM TALKING ABOUT THE ANIMATIONS!!! sweet lord. this is the level i want to achieve in Iclone.
it cant be that limiting when creating this. this same author who is name Mounty Oum has created his own series called RWBY...it has the anime cartoon look that is from Poser 11.
.
|
|
By Rampa - 10 Years Ago
|
Yikes! The comments say he died recently. Very sad to read that. :crying:
Poser has had a pretty good animation from early-on. It is certainly capable in capable hands, as is iClone. There is probably a lot of BVH, and mocap going on here. It is wonderfully dynamic. It's the blending from motion to motion that is really critical. Of course, the motions need to be well made to start with as well.
|
|
By Grimhilda - 10 Years Ago
|
Well, I did say that amazing animations had been done in Poser and that I personally appreciated the ease of use of the animation tools. In another (Poser) forum it was said that no new animation features had appeared in several Poser releases. But, even so, the features present are pretty good.
You can buy and import BVH motions for Poser and I think there are Mocap solutions. Poser has Bullet Physics. The tools are there for anyone to master but I think the learning curve is probably harder than Iclone's and I think Iclone probably enables users to get results more quickly even if there is a lot of room for improvement as the user learns his/her craft.
That's about all I wish to say since this is Reallusion's place but, just as there are great Iclone animators, there are also great animators who used Poser.
This first animation below was done with Poser Pro 2014 and took three months and the second one shows one of the older DAZ figures being used with the new hair and cloth program:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcaiA5OE4iU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0NCytVI35M
|
|
By Grimhilda - 10 Years Ago
|
Hi Rampa, we cross-posted.
My reply was to genao87
|
|
By Grimhilda - 10 Years Ago
|
|
Correction about the first video. In the Youtube conversation the creator said it was done in Poser Pro 2014. Further down he says Poser Pro 2012. It would be the latter, I'd say.
|
|
By Grimhilda - 10 Years Ago
|
OK, I think this is worth seeing since it shows how a brilliant animator works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS-Jq_yYPnQ
|
|
By animagic - 10 Years Ago
|
I was hesitant to respond, because my Poser experience is not recent.
I did create an animated movie with Poser in 2003, which must have been Poser 5 or 6 or so. What I did like was the timeline with the curve editor. (RL should really take a look at it)). I think I did most animation with keyframes, so the curve editor was a must. I also liked the walk cycle generator and the Mimic plugin for lip-synching, which was actually pretty good. They had softcloth simulation, which was extremely slow, but worked. The avatars, though, didn't look that great.
At the time though Poser didn't seem to evolve much, and I have also had stability problems with recent versions. I have not tried with my new video card, maybe that helps.
But you can certainly animate with Poser. As to the learning curve, I took me quite some time to get the hang of iClone as well, so neither program will make you an animator overnight. I think the best way is to try and find videos created in both programs and see what appeals to you. You could start with mine... :P (left image in my signature).
|
|
By genao87 - 10 Years Ago
|
|
rampa (11/26/2015)
Yikes! The comments say he died recently. Very sad to read that. :crying:
Poser has had a pretty good animation from early-on. It is certainly capable in capable hands, as is iClone. There is probably a lot of BVH, and mocap going on here. It is wonderfully dynamic. It's the blending from motion to motion that is really critical. Of course, the motions need to be well made to start with as well.
Yikes!! you are right rampa....he died on February 2015. An allergic reaction to a routine medical procedure, reading the wiki page. He was the one who got me going into creating my 3D animation. RWBY has been taken over by a long friend of his. HOLY COW he is dead.
So those are mainly BVH captures and mocap huh. I didn't know that...thanks for that revelation, in short then this can be produce in Iclone. Just need to get that powerful PC though I am doing just fine so far with a few avatars and made up scenes. Curious do you know where I can get fighting BVH as awesome as the ones that Mounty Oum used.
Grimhilda! Thank You for those videos, it seems very comparable to Iclones.
|
|
By genao87 - 10 Years Ago
|
|
animagic (11/27/2015)
I was hesitant to respond, because my Poser experience is not recent.
I did create an animated movie with Poser in 2003, which must have been Poser 5 or 6 or so. What I did like was the timeline with the curve editor. (RL should really take a look at it)). I think I did most animation with keyframes, so the curve editor was a must. I also liked the walk cycle generator and the Mimic plugin for lip-synching, which was actually pretty good. They had softcloth simulation, which was extremely slow, but worked. The avatars, though, didn't look that great.
At the time though Poser didn't seem to evolve much, and I have also had stability problems with recent versions. I have not tried with my new video card, maybe that helps.
But you can certainly animate with Poser. As to the learning curve, I took me quite some time to get the hang of iClone as well, so neither program will make you an animator overnight. I think the best way is to try and find videos created in both programs and see what appeals to you. You could start with mine... :P (left image in my signature).
I see bro, the voices sound robotic, do you have or anybody for that matter a more human sounding voices? I am assuming you got those voices for your characters from CrazyTalk?
|
|
By animagic - 10 Years Ago
|
|
genao87 (11/27/2015)
I see bro, the voices sound robotic, do you have or anybody for that matter a more human sounding voices? I am assuming you got those voices for your characters from CrazyTalk?
You would have to find and use actual voice talent to get around that. I don't have that readily available, but I'm working on that for my next production. The voices did not come from CrazyTalk. I mostly use acapela-box.com. It's all artificial anyway, so I doesn't bother me that much... The last movie I did ("The End?") used an actual voice of one of the forum members.
Anyway, I hope you found something good in them as well or were the voices too annoying?
|
|
By pumeco - 10 Years Ago
|
Been using Poser since Poser 3, but dropped it once and for all recently when I saw that waste of time and resources they call Poser 11.
If you're bothered about animation, I think the last program you want to be using is Poser. I can say with absolute honesty that Poser is the most unreliable, buggy, out-of-touch with reality piece of software I ever wasted money on. The animation tools feel like they came from 20 years ago. I mean, they're still looking at 'stick-men' in a small window (the Poser Walk Designer) which apparently passes for motion editing in 2015. Seriously, Poser isn't a patch on iClone, not even in the same league, not even close. There's things I don't like about iClone as well, but iClone still far-outweighs Poser in terms of being an up-to-date, modern peice of software that brings genuinely well though-out features as the releases progress. iClone feels (and is) very productive whereas Poser feels like a flakey, time-consuming nightmare.
If I could get back everything I spent on Poser, and blow it all on an iClone Pipeline rig with Indigo, believe me I would do it in a heartbeat, wouldn't even have to think about it.
|
|
By pumeco - 10 Years Ago
|
I just wanted to say, scary stuff seeing sw00000p recommend Poser!
Poser is absolutely crap as an animation tool, and now that iClone has the option of Indigo I don't see any redeeming properties for Poser at all. Indigo is Pyhsically Based, so even if you're after a nice realistic still image you no longer have to rely on iClone's built-in renderer, just use Indigo. iClone wins both in animation and stills, and when it comes to animation especially, iClone is on a whole other level to Poser. I've used Poser since version 3 and as far as I'm concerned it's not even fit for purpose.
As far as I'm concerned, Poser is a pile of outdated, bug-ridden crap, has been for years now and still has bugs from Poser 5 that I know of. I actually feel bad about saying that as well, because back in the day, when it was in it's prime, it seemed to be on the right track and Poser has an interface I like. But as hard as I try, I can only think of one thing that Poser has that was worth them putting in, and that is the MorphBrush that can be used on a figure that is already posed. I'd really like to see that in iClone (it feels like it should have been part of iClone 6 at least) because it's desperately missing and it's a vital tool in tidying things up and taking the shabbyness off things. Apart from that, lol, I feel really bad for anyone who supports Smith-Micro for that release of Poser, not just because I think it's doomed under Smith-Micro, but because after years and years of waiting and watching thread after thread after thread where people where complaining about it's outdatedness and poor animation tools, they did exactly nothing for animation this release!
Funny thing is, they're actually trying to make out as if they listen to their customers (LMFAO).
Yeah right, and I've got 100 nymphomaniac models for wives :D
|
|
By pumeco - 10 Years Ago
|
@sw00000p
Agreed, Poser's MorphBrush is definitely awesome, we need to gang-up on Peter and get it in iClone. It would actually serve two purposes in iClone, because as well as being able to paint Morphs to fix bends and joints etc, it could also be used to paint the dynamics map for the cloth, directly onto the dynamic cloth in realtime instead of having to constantly switch between a photo editor and importing maps (which is a real bummer the way it is now and feels unprofessional by Reallusion's usually high standards).
As for Poser, I suppose I might have been just a bit hard on it. Poser is awesome if you want your Dynamic Hair to look like you just touched a 1000V powerline, or your walks to look as if you're animating for a limping contest. And I'll never forget the fun I had with Poser Dynamic Cloth, when I tried to attach a pair of dynamic knickers to a figure and they shot across the viewport like a catapult, never to be seen again!
Never did find out where those knickers got to, but judging by the velocity, I'm guessing they're orbiting some unknown planet in outer-space by now!
|
|
By genao87 - 10 Years Ago
|
animagic (11/27/2015)
genao87 (11/27/2015)
I see bro, the voices sound robotic, do you have or anybody for that matter a more human sounding voices? I am assuming you got those voices for your characters from CrazyTalk?
You would have to find and use actual voice talent to get around that. I don't have that readily available, but I'm working on that for my next production. The voices did not come from CrazyTalk. I mostly use acapela-box.com. It's all artificial anyway, so I doesn't bother me that much... The last movie I did ("The End?") used an actual voice of one of the forum members. Anyway, I hope you found something good in them as well or were the voices too annoying?
They are not annoying. They just don't sound 100% human.
Swoopes...already working on it. I guess I have no choice than to export but was trying to avoid it since I have to reset things all over again since when you export a scene, it doesnt export 100% the way you set it up and have to waste time in reorganizing the scene as you did it in Iclone. I think I will use Unity instead of Poser then after reading the posts. Will learn how to setup scenes in it.
|
|
By Rampa - 10 Years Ago
|
These kinds of videos are usually not done by one person. Here are production videos of the RWBY series that was made in Poser..... and Maya, After Effects, Photshop, a motion capture studio, etc.
These videos are equally applicable to working in iClone.
|
|
By genao87 - 10 Years Ago
|
|
rampa (11/28/2015)
These kinds of videos are usually not done by one person. Here are production videos of the RWBY series that was made in Poser..... and Maya, After Effects, Photshop, a motion capture studio, etc.
These videos are equally applicable to working in iClone.
I see...I have given up on Poser in attempts to combine it with Iclone. I am going to use Unity for at least movie making to combine with Iclone. Know where I can find BVH files that are compatible/can be imported with Iclone??
|
|
By Rampa - 10 Years Ago
|
Just PM'd the link to Animstreet.
http://www.animstreet.com/
Someone here may have downloaded all the fighting motions that Mixamo made free on the Adobe aquisition. Fighting is way down on my list, so I didn't download any of the fighting motions.
Perhaps someone could post those?
|
|
By Rampa - 10 Years Ago
|
I think there might be some martial arts moves in this collection of mine. They are some free ones I converted last year.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3nsNVGroEz6dkE5S0RXOGdRenc/view?usp=sharing
|
|
By jgrant - 10 Years Ago
|
|
Thanks Rampa for all the links. I mix and match Poser, Daz and IClone all the time and am currently working on a new project using this kind of workflow. Much appreciate the sharing.
|
|
By Rampa - 10 Years Ago
|
I guess I might as well put up my Mixamo collection as well. Some users created bigger collections than I did, but here you go! :)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3nsNVGroEz6MWlELW9Mc2NENUE/view?usp=sharing
And if anyone wants their characters to have "perform" 90 and 180 degree turns that properly align the gizmo to the character, grab my Locomotion motions and Persona. There are 4 walks created from the Motion Puppet walks, and a "stand ready" pose. Use the stand ready pose at the end of a walk, as the walk animation will stop mid-cycle at the end of a path or move. It works better that way than having pace-in-place issues.
It is a ZIP called "Locomotion". Inside the ZIP is a folder called locomotion, and an AML (Persona) file called Locomotion. Put the folder into your Template/Motion folder, and the AML file into either your Template or Custom Persona folder. Load the persona on a character and right-click for the goodies.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3nsNVGroEz6cFp2ODQxX1hnUkE/view?usp=sharing
|
|
By jgrant - 10 Years Ago
|
|
Thank you Rampa. Very generous. Much appreciated.
|
|
By pmaina - 10 Years Ago
|
Only 3 things impressed me with the examples given: The Story, the directing (including art direction) & the Editing.
Now guess what, none of that is determined by animation tools & "curve editors".
I am happy with RL iClone's focus on productivity & ease of use because that allows me to focus on storytelling - the core reason why people would want to make movies.
As long as RL meets my productivity needs am sticking around for the long haul. In fact I have realized that iClone offers everything I need to tell my story. I cant wait for the multi-user "enterprise" version that will enable team collaboration. Its bound to happen sooner or later.
|
|