CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline and iC6: Photo to 3D Head Discussion

CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline and iC6: Photo to 3D Head Discussion

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By Eric (RL) - 10 Years Ago

The new CrazyTalk 8 (CT8) pre-order campaign launched today, and we couldn’t be more excited to share with our community what we have been working on for the past year. One of the biggest features for CT8 is the brand new 3D Head Creator that will surely be the talk of the town, especially with the new CT8 pipeline connectivity that will enable users to transfer finished 3D heads from CrazyTalk 8 to iClone and the Character Creator.

Vision for a Unified Animation Platform

It has been the ultimate goal for the Reallusion team to integrate all of our product lines into one working system: where various application modules, models, motion files and contents seamlessly share across iClone, CrazyTalk and CrazyTalk Animator, for both Windows and Mac versions alike, without the need for re-purchasing content. We started this with CrazyTalk Animator 2 Pipeline two years ago. The CTA 2 Pipeline had the ability to use iClone motion files at its launch, making this content cross platform and compatible. Our philosophy is that we shouldn’t charge users twice for the same content, plug-ins, and modules, and we should allow users to fully exploit all the tools that they have put their trust and efforts into.

Here is a brief future roadmap plan and what we wish to achieve:

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/b45f2052-5022-49f6-80e6-f83b.png

CT8 is an important step for this plan! Aside from the decade-long 2.5D talking picture technologies, the design goal for CT8 right from the start was to enter brave new 3D territories. One of the key points that make characters “fun” and “crazy” with CrazyTalk is the ability to create realistic faces with ease, and dressing up these characters in various outfits. In addition, in order to match today’s modern motion tracking devices, CT8 introduces 3D heads to fully achieve its best. With this in mind, we wish for CT8 to become the de facto tool for 3D head creation and precise facial animation. Thus in the CT8 pipeline version, you will be able to transfer your 3D heads to both iClone and the Character Creator. But that’s not all, as we’ll also have more content in the future that will be shared across all applications; iClone, Character Creator and CrazyTalk 8.

The 3D Head Creator is a new module that was written from the ground up with the purpose of being the fastest and most easy-to-use head generator. We spent a considerable amount of effort in making sure that the photo fitting process was way more accurate than before, and we want everybody, no matter which software he/she is proficient with, to be able to create a next-gen 3D head with only a few simple clicks of the mouse.

The Best Package for iClone Users To Get the 3D Head Creator

To get the absolute best deal right now, you can purchase $249 worth of content between Nov. 5th and Dec 6th, and get a FREE CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline version. With this, not only will you have the freedom to choose the content you need, but you will have a brand new photo to 3D head creation system and a more detailed time-line script editing tool without having to pay anything extra. If you wish to simply purchase CT8 through upgrade pricing, then we will have that option ready by the end of the month. (November)

In the end, we wish to create a complete software ecosystem where everything is integrated and shared. Of course this will not happen over night, as there are still lots of challenges along the way, but we are working hard to make sure that our users can get most out of these unified product lines. We will be constantly monitoring this thread and would love to hear more from you.

By ToKoMotion - 10 Years Ago

Wow!!! Thanks a lot for the great information. This whole ecosystem plan sounds amazing and I believe it will have a groundbreaking effect on the industry! An All-in-one production system will be like a dream come true. Thumbs up to the whole RL R&D team for all past developments and the future tools. You guys rock!:)

For now I´m curious to see what the new CT8 will offer and the first WIP video looks awesome. Keep my fingers crossed that Facial Mocap will also be available soon.

Keep up the good work and see you around.

By AniMajik - 10 Years Ago

Is there an upgrade path from CTA2 Pro to CT8?
Thaanks in advance.

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/6/2015)

Our philosophy is that we shouldn’t charge users twice for the same content, plug-ins, and modules, and we should allow users to fully exploit all the tools that they have put their trust and efforts into.

An excellent and admirable philosophy; however if you look at it from an alternative angle you previously had the power to do limited photo fitting in Iclone which was removed at Iclone 6 which means you now need to purchase CT8 Pipeline to get that (albeit vastly improved) functionality back

By wires - 10 Years Ago

Well, well - RL really do know how to get rid of long-time customers. :crying:

I've been using iClone since version 2, and one of the great features even then was the ability to create custom faces/heads directly inside the App. I had assumed that the absence of this feature in IC 6 was only something temporary to be reintroduced in a future patch update.

Now the cold hard truth has been published - either users spend $249.00 on content, or pay $199.00 for the CT8 Pipeline version just to the ability to do something that has always been included as an integral part of iClone!!!!!!!! :w00t::alien::sick:

If there was content available for purchase that I could justify spending $249.00 on then I would have already done that. If I had any need for CrazyTalk I would already own and use it - I did purchase a discounted version once somewhere, but couldn't fit it into my workflow.

I am afraid to even contemplate just how much money I have invested in RL products since IC 2, but I don't for one second regret it. I spent money on assets that I found suitable to achieve my goals, and satisfy my limited "creative talents". I have had a lot of enjoyment using both iClone and 3DXchange, but being slapped around the face to pay between $200.00 and $250.00 by RL just to obtain the ability to do something that has always been a core element of their software is just too much to take. :(:crazy::doze::exclamationmark:

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/6/2015)

we wish for CT8 to become the de facto tool for 3D head creation and precise facial animation.

Eric,

Could you elaborate just a bit on this? For those of us not at all interested in 2D, are you saying that we will need CT8 both to create 3D heads as well as do "precise" facial animation? How, exactly, would that work? Would we use CT and set up all the talking, emoting, etc, of what is, essentially, a 2D version of the head, and then transfer this "2D/3D thingee" with all those movements using the pipeline into iClone so that our full 3D character would then have those facial animation movements?

As much as I'm not crazy about spending more money (and do understand the concern of some for whom it will seem like you have charged for something that was already present in previous versions) I kind of like this particular pipeline if that's what you're trying to accomplish. While I don't do 2D animation with CT (using a much more professional tool) I can well see the advantages in doing facial animation from a 2D perspective, but then having the ability to convert it to 3D.

In any case, a little more information would be nice -- even just a sort of step by step walkthrough of how someone using iClone for their animation work would both model and animate a character with this program flow.

By Tomasz F - 10 Years Ago

Yes:
1) That looks really great!
2) That is really expensive!
Just wonder, as before Xmass I do not want to bother my wife with additional spendings, how much will cost upgrade from CrazyTalk 7 pro to CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline?
I think that your sales department knows the answer already, so please, share it with us ;-)

Tomasz

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/6/2015)

with the new CT8 pipeline connectivity that will enable users to transfer finished 3D heads from CrazyTalk 8 to iClone and the Character Creator.

...facial mocap...

Can you tell us more about the facial mocap interface you have planned? Will it be universal for different facial mocap softwares?

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

wires (11/6/2015)

I'm feeling the same way. As well as upset that CrazyTalk, a fantastic product in it's own right, is now nothing more than a plugin for iClone. Of course I don't know this for sure, but I'm a long time RL customer, and it wouldn't be the first time RL upset me with their direction.

One of the great things about CrazyTalk was you could use literally any photograph. They didn;t have to be professional portraits with front and side shots. And the results were great. But now with the focus on creating 3d head, and having to have front and side images, the entertainment value of CT is going down. Which is a shame... We also lost the capability of making talking photographs. The 3D head is blad, and for hair we no doubt will have to use 3D content, purchaseable as content packs from RL no doubt. No, I'm not at all happy CrazyTalk was subverted for this usage into 3D...

By SeanMac - 10 Years Ago

Hi Eric (RL)
Thanks for that.
It is good to hear that a better 3head modeller will be available on the pipeline version of Crazy Talk 8 . But the details of the offer are heavily contradictory.

I hope you will be able to clarify.

I like many others got an email offer which sets the time window at three days for me to buy a bundle called iClone 6 Essential Power Collection for $199 to get CT8. But I have no means of knowing whether this offer is for CT8 Standard, CT8 Pro or CT8 Pipeline. As well, the Terms & Conditions stipulate that the offer does not include "Any software bundles withincluded content from the Reallusion’s Online Store". That seems to rule out the Essential Power Collection.

On your website offer page (www.reallusion.com/ContentStore/promo/2015-CT8-PreSale/default/html) you make it clear that the basic offer is: spend $199 to get a free CT8 Pro "worth $149", but you also say there that the Essential Power Collection is priced at "$249".

Finally there is the problem that you are telling me that I have to spend "over $199" to ge offer. Now being legalistic, $199 is NOT over $199. So I would have spent $199 without getting whatever CT8 version it is for the three day email offer which is on promo on that page above for a month.

Surely Reallusion must have people who could have noticed this set of contradictions before you put out the emails and the promo page?

By alemar - 10 Years Ago

RL you always surprise me ! That´s nice news! Is awesome to see the evolution from all programs! and wonderful think where we go!

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

wizaerd (11/6/2015)

CrazyTalk 8 isn't a plugin for iClone 6. The Standard version of CrazyTalk 8 works with 2D heads in much the same way as previous versions did. Pro add the ability to do both 2D and 3D heads but both versions have no link to iClone 6. Only the Pipeline version has an export feature to iClone 6.

So if you just want a standalone CrazyTalk like in the past you can go for the Standard or Pro versions. And if you want to stay old school you can still work in 2D. ;)

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

SeanMac (11/6/2015)

I like many others got an email offer which sets the time window at three days for me to buy a bundle called iClone 6 Essential Power Collection for $199 to get CT8. But I have no means of knowing whether this offer is for CT8 Standard, CT8 Pro or CT8 Pipeline. As well, the Terms & Conditions stipulate that the offer does not include "Any software bundles withincluded content from the Reallusion’s Online Store". That seems to rule out the Essential Power Collection.

Hi Sean,

If you are buying content then $199 will only get you the Pro version of CrazyTalk 8. However as the offer is for accumulated content, you can spend $199 now and can still spend another $50 before the offer runs out to get the Pipeline version of CrazyTalk 8 free.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

For those who haven't see it yet. Here is the CrazyTalk 8 - Work In Progress Part 1 video. :)

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

wizaerd (11/6/2015)

[We also lost the capability of making talking photographs. The 3D head is blad, and for hair we no doubt will have to use 3D content, purchaseable as content packs from RL no doubt. No, I'm not at all happy CrazyTalk was subverted for this usage into 3D...

Not true.

CrazyTalk 8 works in 2D (like before) or in the new 3D mode. You can still use a single front facing photograph and work in 2D if you wish.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/6/2015)

wizaerd (11/6/2015)

Not true.

CrazyTalk 8 works in 2D (like before) or in the new 3D mode. You can still use a single front facing photograph and work in 2D if you wish.

Will there be a video demonstrating this? Also, given that capability is still there, what new features are there for the 2D customer?

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/6/2015)

SeanMac (11/6/2015)

Peter,

Just to be clear here -- if I buy, say, $250 in points in the Content Store (I think they are called points -- sorry, but I've only ever just bought content) do I still qualify for this free Pipeline even if I haven't "spent" those points at the time of the Pipeline release.

My problem is I don't know there is currently that much content I want, but I do want the Pipeline version so I might as well spend the money somewhere (you can look at it two ways -- you either get a free Pipeline for buying content, or free content for buying Pipeline, and I prefer to look at it the latter).

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (11/6/2015)

Just to be clear here -- if I buy, say, $250 in points in the Content Store (I think they are called points -- sorry, but I've only ever just bought content) do I still qualify for this free Pipeline even if I haven't "spent" those points at the time of the Pipeline release.

My problem is I don't know there is currently that much content I want, but I do want the Pipeline version so I might as well spend the money somewhere (you can look at it two ways -- you either get a free Pipeline for buying content, or free content for buying Pipeline, and I prefer to look at it the latter).

Hi Kelley,

If you spend $250 on DA Points then you will certainly get CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline FREE. You do not need to have spent the points before CT8 is released. You can hold on to them until there is something you need. :)

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Great, I think that's exactly what I'll do today then.

This looks to be a great Christmas present (well, to myself but...)

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

I do think it's rather amusing that when you go to check if you are qualified for this offer (if you have spent enough) that even if you have spent 0 (which I have, so far :>) it says "You are almost there" or some such.

Hey, I'm almost there!

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

wizaerd (11/6/2015)

Will there be a video demonstrating this? Also, given that capability is still there, what new features are there for the 2D customer?

We will have a second Work In Progress video coming shortly. To be honest I don't know if this will cover 2D head creation as the actual process hasn't really changed much. However it will likely cover the new features that will benefit both 2D and 3D users such as Timeline improvements and effects.

By Sen - 10 Years Ago

Great job.

By JC Weatherby - 10 Years Ago

This looks great, and it'll work with Character Creator, huh? Looking forward to it!

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

wires (11/6/2015)

My sentiments exactly.

I thought the "face mapping" we had in iClone 5 was being updated to reappear in an iClone 6.x release. iClone, not CrazyTalk.

The demo sure does look cool, but it's irrelevant. I'm sad now.

I wonder what functionality we currently take for granted will be "lost" in iClone 7, but available for purchase at a much higher cost. A lip-sync module? A path-following module? The ability to scale props?

By RobertoColombo - 10 Years Ago

I do not need it, so I won't buy it.
250USD are too much for just converting a photo into a 3D model, which is the only thing I would be interested being an iClone user.
I think RL would have better differentiate into CT8 with 3D photo feature at this expensive price PLUS the option to buy a separate plug-in for iClone with the same feature at a reasonable price.
They would have got more customers.

I am also disappointed that the Physic Toolbox, which is just 1 iClone version earlier, was dropped.
This is not a good customer care and has no justification at all.

Recently I kept my money in my wallet, sorry to tell you RL.

Cheers

Roberto

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

I wish I could find the "official" post that stated that face-mapping would return to iClone 6. $250 is a lot of money to add functionality that should have been part of IClone 6 at some point. I don't really have a need for CrazyTalk, but I would like to use the face-fitting. So I feel somewhat unhappy at the moment about this. Sorry...:crying:

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

I can see both sides -- for those of you who used iClone 5 (I bought it but never used it) a feature that goes away, only to return improved in a different format that requires spending a lot more money for is a bit of a blow, and somewhat unlike any other kind of feature development.

OTOH, I kind of see what RL is trying to get at in terms of integration of their product line as well as blurring the differences between 2D and 3D. CT has always been, to me, a toy, but this kind of functionality is starting to get exciting. And any time you develop new products (or even spend time enhancing features of old ones) someone must pay the cost.

I also think they came up with a pretty good compromise for existing users in terms of the paid content/software allowing you to get the Pipeline "free". It allows them to still recoup development costs, but also gives you a pretty good deal. I guess a lot of folks feel they have all the content they'd ever want (and even this old man knows that's a foolish attitude to take). Otherwise, buy the DA points and realize that even if it takes a year or two you'd spend that much money anyway, and then you get the Pipeline software in the meantime.

Oh well, you can't please everyone...

By leshenderson - 10 Years Ago

I'm a sucker for buying neat stuff that I never find time to use, let alone master. I was just about to head down that road again but, upon reflection and the sage advice of longtime RL users above, I think I'll hold off as well.
I think this feature should have been included in iClone or Character Creator. $50 tops.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

@Kellytoons, I really have almost all content there is to purchase, and I don't deny RL their attempt to make their disperse product line more integrated. It's great! It's just that RL has given the impression that face-mapping would be integrated into iClone 6 with upgraded iClone 6 characters, so it's kind of a shock to discover that it will not be the case. It's always best to be clear with your longtime customers. I will probably get CT8 Pipeline eventually, but I felt the need to speak my mind, especially since $250 is kind of an expense at the moment (retirement changes everything...)

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/6/2015)

I wish I could find the "official" post that stated that face-mapping would return to iClone 6. [snip] So I feel somewhat unhappy at the moment about this. Sorry...:crying:

I vividly remember searching and searching for statements (which I'm still convinced existed) that indicated a PBR shader was intended (if not exactly promised) in some future iC6.x update, but is now deferred until iC7 (hopefully not longer).

I was having the exact same feeling for photo-face mapping.

Maybe they were careful with their words and said it would "available" in a future 6.x update. But it was certainly expected to be an *iClone* function. Even it was a bolt-on module it might be okay. It should be added to CC, probably. I could see that making sense.

But in our whining and asking about face mapping, nowhere do I remember anyone telling us we'd need to buy more software to make it work.

I don't do it often (maybe because I wasn't thrilled with the results I got), but I was really looking forward to an improved version. Yeah, I feel let down and a bit betrayed.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/6/2015)

$250 is kind of an expense at the moment (retirement changes everything...)

Hey, brother, you're preaching to the choir (I don't there there's ANYONE older than I am here nor anyone who has bought more unused software than I have -- heck, I bought CT6 and iClone 5 and never once even booted them up :>). So it's not like I'm exactly excited or thrilled to be paying more money for content I most likely will never even see, given how much stuff I have already, just to get this functionality.

Except... I think this is more than just a 3D face thing. Maybe I'm way off (because I don't have the experience others have here, and certainly not with CT -- the last time I ever used that was in version 1 and it was pretty jokey) but I'm thinking that using the Pipeline for close-up facial animation for iClone is a super tool. I'm really hoping that will crack the thing I think is most lacking in iClone (good facial animation without a lot of phoneme editing and morph tweaking). I could be wrong and be disappointed, but I'm always optimistic at first (later we'll see how cynical I get about it).

In any case, I still don't think the customers here realize how RL has to amortize their R&D for something like this. Since I just "came back" (sort of) to the RL product line, I want them to be healthy and developing a lot of new stuff just like this, so if I have to buy a ton of content (half of which I might buy already -- heck, any of the new G6 stuff they release, like clothing and hair stuff, I'll want anyway, and most likely even motions, as my own PN mocap suit is a ways off :>) to support them I'm okay with it. Would I like it for free? Obviously, and this isn't a good time for me (all personal stuff, but money is tight for us old timers <g>). Still, I'll be first in line for it and can't wait until it comes out.

(And I'll also be the loudest to complain if it doesn't do what I want. No middle ground for me).

By mtakerkart - 10 Years Ago

Thank you Eric! Did I read "Facial mocap"??????? :w00t:

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/4e24949b-d85c-464b-ae8d-717a.jpg

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

In order to make full use of these new character creation tools we desperately need more hairstyles and clothing choices , without these much of the potential will remain unrealised

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

toonarama (11/6/2015)

In order to make full use of these new character creation tools we desperately need more hairstyles and clothing choices , without these much of the potential will remain unrealised

Yes, absolutely, but I am fairly sure this content will be coming (RL *wants* to sell us more content, I suspect).

It's one reason I have no problem at all buying DA points now to qualify for the "free" copy of the Pipeline, as I am sure that I'll be needing it for the new clothes and hairstyles that are sure to be offered in the coming months.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

@Kellytoons: Since 2006, I've bought every version of iClone since around 1.5, CrazyTalk since version 3, I believe, CTA 1 and 2, including the Pipeline, which I don't use, as well as numerous content, so I have definitely paid my share, just because I want RL to be financially healthy and independent and kept out of the hands of greedy conglomerates like Adobe and Autodesk. Other than those, RL listens, which I appreciate.

On the other hand, face-mapping has been a raison d'être for iClone since early versions, so when it suddenly disappears, long-time customers start to wonder. And the lack of clarity on the part of RL when this issue was brought up repeatedly (including during Beta testing as far as I recall) gives a funny feeling. I don't want to keep dwelling on this, I've spoken my mind.

By Holden7 - 10 Years Ago

My expectation was that facial photo mapping was coming to Iclone 6 as a free update, that Reallusion just needed more time to get it out the door and didn't want to hold back the release of 6 for it. It was there in 5, and if it doesn't appear in 6 without getting CrazyTalk I'll be royally upset. I've already spent a ton on IClone5/6/CharacterCreator/Pipeline content very recently, and I do not want to have to spend another $200 for a function that was previously available. I don't need Crazy Talk, but I would like facial mapping in my Iclone 6.

By TopOneTone - 10 Years Ago

Have to say I am in total agreement with animagic on this. I raised concerns over the removal of this feature from IC6 went it was first released and read on a number of occasions in the Forum that this was a feature that would be re-added in an update of I6 once the new avatars were finalised. After the total waste of money I spent on Indigo RT, I am really pissed off to discover I am going to have to pay to get this feature back. I have no doubt it will have some extra faders, but $250 worth?

I was really impressed with Character Creator, but frustrated that I couldn't bring characters into it, now I understand what is going on - Reallusion has come up with a great new scam. Historically, the pipeline version was mainly about exporting content developed in iclone to 3rd party software under the rationale that if you want to make money off iclone content you have to pay a premium to use it elsewhere. Now Reallusion are taking existing features away, repackaging them and then forcing everyone into the pipeline version just so you can get access to these features for use within the reallusion software you have already purchased. Its obvious the new vision is about repackaging everything in a manner that it all interconnects, but only if you buy the most expensive versions of every element. Its a great way to gouge maximum dollars from your existing loyal customers.

Face creation is one of several reasons that I keep coming back to IC5 and in all honesty I would say I have not been overwhelmed with IC6 and constantly alternate between the two. I did buy CTA 1 & 2 and 7 Pro, but I rarely use them and really am not that interested in buying a new version. Given I am certain we were told that this feature would return in an update of IC6 I was not expecting to have to pay for it. I also think we were overdue for some compensation for the Indigo RT misdirection, the mocap debacle and what I still think is an under-delivery with IC6. I think Face Creation should be part of a free upgrade to IC6, not repackaged as a way to force me to buy another product that I don't want.

Like so many others on this forum, I have spent huge sums of money buying reallusion products and so much content that I am yet to utilise. I can't justify $250 to get back a feature I still have in IC5 and it really pisses me off that reallusion resorts to such tactics to bleed more money out of its loyal customers. Its a very short sighted outlook and last time I looked they were still teaching "customer is king" in Business 101.

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

I don't want to stand up and become hated. I have absolute respect for you guys and gals who have been loyal with Reallusion for so long, especially the folks here on the forum. You've been through years with them, and I can hear the frustrations and the feelings of betrayal.

All I can offer is another perspective. Start creating stuff with the new software. What I would have paid 10 years ago for all these cool toys if I had the chance. Even at these prices, even as parceled softwares instead of one software, the deal is amazing.

I want to encourage Reallusion to keep with this strategy. I want powerful affordable software and NOT have to rely on content developers. Give me access to as many options as possible every time I sit at the workstation (BUT keep it simple and user-friendly! ;)

iClone 6 still has the face mapper for the G5 characters. I used it a few times and decided it was not near good enough for reasons of difficulty in achieving good results, and I just couldn't create a high quality face. I looked elsewhere pretty quick.

Anyway, I love you folks, but maybe take a second look and reconsider. Doing it this way will make it easier for newcomers to put together the system they want rather than Reallusion raising the price of iClone by $200, thus shutting out potential new customers instantly.

By jann - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/6/2015)

I'm a bit unsure how to react on this. Should i get excited and "pre-order" (buy stuff) CrazyTalk8 right away? Or should i get really annoyed because i have to pay extra for a feature that should be included iClone6 already?

But first i need some more information:

1) What is the member/upgrade price for CrazyTalk8 Pipeline?

2) Is there any special price for iClone6 users? Or maybe it's even free for iCloners?

3) If you buy CrazyTalk7 Pro now, is it CrazyTalk8 Pro or Pipeline you get free? (you can't buy CT7 Pipeline, as there isn't any!)

4) Is this new face fitting feature going to included in CrazyTalk Animator 3?

By RobertoColombo - 10 Years Ago

Well...after Indigo & Physic Toolbox stories, I have been cautious with new RL products/add-ons.
The result is that I did not buy any of the new things (except CC): 3DX6, Substance, CT8... etc. etc.
I am sure I am not alone in this and I hope for RL biz & employers that their MKT people have considered very careful their new "Divide (the features) and Impera (in revenues)" strategy.

Cheers

Roberto

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

CaseClosed (11/7/2015)

Yeah, I'm with you completely on this one but, as I said initially, I'm really just a newbee here (having bought iClone 1 and then skipped things until version 5 last year, which I bought but never even booted up once). IC6 is an amazing advance in 3D animation technology and while it doesn't do it all right it certainly is getting there. But I'm not quite sure why folks are so angry when they did NOT remove the face mapping feature -- it's still there for G5 characters. They've just gone forward with an enhanced feature set for their brand new model of G6/Character Creator.

So here's one more way of looking at this for those of you so angry -- I was THIS close to paying $300 for FaceGen in order to do what this new software will do. Granted, FaceGen is a bit more adaptable to "random" faces, but in playing with the demo I found it was absolutely awful at building the morphs I needed for use in iClone. I was working a way through doing what I could, though, when this announcement hit. And while it's hard to tell from a demo video, it looks pretty damn close in every way to what I would have had to pay $100 more for (and it WILL do the morphs correctly and, hopefully, make a seamless transition into CC).

Now, the whole "buy $250 worth of content and get it for free" has folks up in arms -- I almost think they should have forgone that. Don't get me wrong -- I'm going to do it, and consider the cost of the software $50, because I would have definitely spent (over the course of the next year, when I can use my DA points I'll buy) that much anyway. I find it hard to believe, though, that all the folks here crying foul and talking about how much money they've spent with RL over the years aren't going to spend that much more over the course of the next two or three years in content. Really? You have absolutely ALL the content you'll ever buy? Even if RL releases new clothes, hair, body options for the G6? If so, my answer to you is that you most likely have all the 3D heads you ever need as well. But perhaps skipping that path might have at least had folks decide, one way or another, whether they really needed 3D heads for G6 as much as they seem to say they do (some people say they harder ever used that feature in G5 -- for those it should be a non-factor -- while others say they used it all the time, and it's still there so, again, a non-factor).

But I don't want to get hated on here either -- and let's face it, no matter what anyone says in this thread, RL has made up their mind and it won't change (can you imagine the uproar if they DID change it from folks who have gone ahead and made purchases as a result? Would be MUCH worse than this is now). The best any kind of whining here will do is perhaps get them to reconsider things for the NEXT move.

(And now I'll go away and anxiously await the middle of December. Maybe Christmas IS coming early this year!)

By wendyluvscatz - 10 Years Ago

it certainly looks like a cool app and may buy points to qualify after my next pay
iC6 still has face fitting for G5 and below so not entirely without it so not that disappointed, you can Frankenstein heads hiding parts if needed.
this looks improved and prob a better way to go than all in one app, maybe even usable in other apps and better for 2D animation and video editing work using real footage and photos outside of iClone.

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

I am truly exited about this news RL,it seems I will be able to really truly utilize iClone now for my needs,I've waited and begged for a good face fitting option on par with Facegen & Faceshop for a long time here.

Looking forward to its release in December.

My hope is we have a simple way to make quality hair to go with this. That was the main problem using Facegen & Faceshop ,I can get a really good looking likeness of a person but the hair was always the issue.

Also I like the feature with the hair spring affect in CT8 but I would like to transfer that head with hair movement to use on a body in CTA2 Pipline,will that be possible?

I was tempted to bite on the buying content thing but I will wait to see how much the upgrade from CT7 is.

Like others it is a little disappointing to not have a quality custom face fitting option in iClone 6 but the Reallusion team seems to always raise the bar in new innovative features at reasonable prices,so I'm normally a sucker when it comes to giving them my money for something new.

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

Hopefully nobody will feel "hated" for voicing an alternate viewpoint.

I think most of us here have at one time or another been the voice of opposition to the majority; sometimes siding with Reallusion's decisions, sometimes not. (I liked the new interface, mostly, while others equated it to the bubonic plague.)

Personally, as long as people are being rational and reasonably articulate, I can tolerate and maybe even understand their viewpoint (whether or not change my opinion).

Am I in the "disappointed" crowd? Yes.
Do I hope the re-bundle it to be part of CC? Yes.
Am I going to go ballistic and threaten lawsuits? No.
Am I going to think poorly of those who support Reallusion's packaging of the face/photo tool? Hey, we're family! :)

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

Hopefully this will be my last post on this topic (until I am able to thank RL for making the change many of us hope for).

WHY WE MIGHT FEEL BETRAYED
(OR AT THE VERY LEAST, MISLEAD)

Consider this message: https://forum.reallusion.com/FindPost251878.aspx
(Emphasis is mine):

Peter (RL) (9/6/2015)

wizaerd (9/3/2015)

With the new CC, are we still able to map photographs onto avatars heads like we used to be able to, with a wizard that walked you through it, or do we have to rely on our own manual manipulations and UVs to get a photo face onto an avatar?

We are currently working on an improved version of the "Create Face" feature. This should come in the 6.3 update.

The new version which also links with CrazyTalk 8 is currently scheduled for the 4th quarter but as always this is subject to change.

When I read this, three things jump out at me:
1) A "6.3 update" sure sounds like a 6.x update to iClone. So it was reasonable to assume we were talking about functionality coming to iClone 6.3.
2) It says "also" links with CT8. Also! It does not in any way tell you "only" or that you "must" have CT8.
3) Even if you did magically suspect you'd need CT8, nowhere does it hint at needing the more expensive Pipeline version.

How long had Reallusion known it would not be "iClone" functionality as indicated in posts like this?
Yeah, that's why we are surprised, disappointed, annoyed, and even upset.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Right, that's why I said their biggest (and, in my mind, only) mistake was not properly preparing the existing base for this move. Either Peter was somewhat out of the loop (quite possible) or he misspoke (because they DO have to release a new version of iClone to support all this, I bet -- it's just that the functionality to do the whole thing isn't there).

I remember thinking (most likely because of these quotes) that it was indeed coming to an iClone release but it doesn't disappoint me that I have to spend more money and, as I stated, from a programming standpoint it's actually a Good Thing it isn't part of iClone. And $50 is pretty trivial (again, considering that I'd have spent the remaining $200 on content anyway).

However, let me point out one unfortunate consequence of this may well be that Peter won't be nearly as forthcoming with his pronouncements as to future developments, and I think that would be a Bad Thing. I'd rather at least know about things that are coming (even if the pricing and/or timing isn't correct) than to not know anything at all.

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (11/7/2015)

However, let me point out one unfortunate consequence of this may well be that Peter won't be nearly as forthcoming with his pronouncements as to future developments, and I think that would be a Bad Thing. I'd rather at least know about things that are coming (even if the pricing and/or timing isn't correct) than to not know anything at all.

True, it's a double-edged sword.
Most of us understand slipped dates, functionality being pushed back to the next update, and modest changes to functionality.
It's when things that have been talked about for months fundamentally change at the time of release that it's hard not to complain.

I'm certain Peter (RL) communicated in good faith, and never meant to deliberately mislead anyone or give false hopes. We don't know what he was told, when he was told, or what instructions he was given by his employer. We try not to shoot the messenger, but we hope he will carry our messages back to his management and convey the passion the loyal customer base feels, both when we're thrilled and when we're upset.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

Thanks, Viking, for finding that post. I knew I had seen it...:P

As to content, I don't buy content I don't need, such as heads. I prefer to do my own...:Wow:

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

brothertcoleman (11/7/2015)

My hope is we have a simple way to make quality hair to go with this. That was the main problem using Facegen & Faceshop ,I can get a really good looking likeness of a person but the hair was always the issue.

Also I like the feature with the hair spring affect in CT8 but I would like to transfer that head with hair movement to use on a body in CTA2 Pipline,will that be possible?

Agreed. By having the software separate, it opens more options.

Quality hair!! I need to learn more about the hair spring effect in CT8 you mentioned.

I hope they work with multiple facial mocap companies to create an interface or plugin for each one of them, so we have our choice, and so we don't need to use other software to interface for that purpose.

By mtakerkart - 10 Years Ago

It's not a vital feature for me but if they had implement facial motion capture in CT8 pipeline it will be like a nuclear warhead in the cgi world!!!!
Easy exportable facial mocap in game engine world!!!!!
And of course I will buy it invariably !!! :D

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

Very, very cool face-fitting tech. Reallusion!

That is a huge boost for what Crazytalk can do. It's also really exciting that it can share this feature with iClone. I like the cross-compatibility idea your putting together.

I was really waiting to see the kitty-cat's head in 3D. Will it have the ability to do a head with such different ears as a cat?

Can you share any info on the facial mocap? Will it be a plugin? Kinect? Maybe it's better those questions stay rhetorical for now, till things calm down again. :P

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

Reality, as it appears to me, is that iClone head creation (a feature that was always there in iClone) has been crippled and moved to "CT" (a totally unnecessary program for iClone users - which is now being made necessary). This IMO is unfair to RL customers who have been faithfully upgrading over the years. I see what looks like ethical boundaries being crossed and its very sad.

Worse, I cant help but feel a little patronized when the announcement is presented like a "grand masterplan for the benefit of users". This is certainly not how you reward loyal customers.

The real roadmap would be to kill the CT line (which looks redundant in 3D realm hence possibly wasteful in terms of development/maintenance resources) and focus all RL resources on iClone only. CT was great but its was a 2D application. You make it 3D it starts competing with iclone, confusing / upsetting users (customers), and losing its previous niche relevance.

RL has a good reputation of listening to its user community which is why many are loyal and many spend thousands of dollars. I urge the RL leadership to please review the above roadmap and keep 2D and 3D realms separate.

Best regards.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

TopOneTone (11/7/2015)

It really is amazing they would do this to loyal customers. It looks like a betrayal of trust. Most knowingly bought an unfinished product (iC6) on the basis of trust that we have in RL's credibility and the desire to support RL's iClone development effort in whatever way we can. Sad day indeed. Loyalty should work both ways.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

At this rate, customers could start wondering other clever schemes are being put in place to guarantee sales for CT Animator3... I fear that this is just the beginning.

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

Wow,RL is amazing,I've been into 3d for quite a while now and a long time Iclone user.When I think of the money I've spent between Poser,Daz,Faceshop,Facegen ect to try and do unsuccessfully what RL has now made a simple smooth flowing operation I wanna cringe.So glad RL is such a great and in touch company that listens to the customers(which has to be difficult with all the negative comments)From here on out I will save a ton of money by sticking to RL'S system and ditching the rest-Thank you Reallusion:)

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

I'm sure this has been asked before. Is there a difference between the Content Store and the Marketplace? There's a deal for a free copy of CT8 Pipeline if one buys $250 worth of content. Is that both the Content Store and the Marketplace?
Thanks!

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

"So glad RL is such a great and in touch company that listens to the customers(which has to be difficult with all the negative comments)"

Yes ,I agree with your statement ,it has to be difficult based on the negative comments but I would think they would have to suspect they would receive some negative response.
Another question ,I know the face fitting will work with G6 characters but will it also work with G5 and CTA2 Pipline?

I hate that things went this direction ,taking away from such a great announcement.
Although I too said I'm a little disappointed that iClone 6 dont have good custom face fitting ,I don't want to seem ungrateful to RL either.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

CaseClosed (11/7/2015)

They are two different entities, so you want to make sure you buy from the Content store. However, you can't buy from the Marketplace per se anyway. You buy DA Points from the Content Store (so it qualifies for the offer) which you can then use in the Marketplace. You can't use DA Points in the Content Store, but *most* of the merchandise sold in the Content Store is also available in the Marketplace, albeit in different packages and guises.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

TonyTiger (11/7/2015)

So glad RL is such a great and in touch company that listens to the customers(which has to be difficult with all the negative comments);

I wonder which customers requested they re-enable photo face fitting capabilities in a separate application, And then requested to be changed for it...

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

brothertcoleman (11/8/2015)

"So glad RL is such a great and in touch company that listens to the customers(which has to be difficult with all the negative comments)"

Yes ,I agree with your statement ,it has to be difficult based on the negative comments but I would think they would have to suspect they would receive some negative response.
Another question ,know the face fitting will work with G6 characters but will it also work with G5 and CTA2 Pipline?

I hate that things went this direction ,taking away from such a great announcement.
Although I too said I'm a little disappointed that iClone 6 dont have good custom face fitting ,I don't want to seem ungrateful to RL either.

Since when are critical remarks considered "negative comments"? None of you have ever been critical of a decision by RL? I know you are all slush with money and $250 is an easy expense, but that is actually not the point, if you took the time to follow the COMPLETE discussion regarding face-mapping since the beginning (which started actually since iClone 6 came out many months ago). I grant you your opinion, but please grant others theirs without disparaging remarks. That is what grown-ups do in a civilized discourse.

By erisku - 10 Years Ago

The tool looks great but is very disappointing the way it is put in the market.

Long time customers were all waiting for this tool inside IClone as it was promised when Iclone 6 was launched and now this.

If RL is in financial troubles, than it will be better for them to say that they need support in order to stay independent and I will gladly pay the price as for most of the customers it's not only about the money.
But like this seems like RL is tricking us to earn more.

Lately I have seen an aggressive push to sell without much consideration for long time customers. What happening? Is RL trying to get to new customers with new tools and forgetting the old customers ?

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/8/2015)

PEEPS!
You should consider nipping this in the "BUD!"
• Slap your image onto the (2D UV Template)
Save Money and get "Under-the-Hood)"
pleaseeeeeee! :pinch: ...it's Free, too! :Wow:
...can't blame BigDaddy RL for nickel-and-dime'n you!
"Especially when there is a Free Work-a-round that' transfers smoothly throughout Standard Industry.apps."
LazY PePeEePpsS!:ermm:
Com On!!! :pinch:
Kind Regards,
sw00000p :cool:

Do you not understand that when people are buying content its the TIME SAVING they are buying? Put a dollar value on your time and you will realize that getting under the hood is not "free" and if taken to the extreme is actually far more expensive (opportunity cost) than paying for content. I bought a balloon prop in iclone simply because it took me 30-60 seconds to get it in my scene and so I could move on to something else. Does it mean I can't make a balloon prop from within iClone (or even in Blender or Maya) - NOPE. So please stop imagining that people who buy content don't know what they are doing.

By Bellatrix - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/6/2015)

Thus in the CT8 pipeline version, you will be able to transfer your 3D heads to both iClone and the Character Creator. But that’s not all, as we’ll also have more content in the future that will be shared across all applications; iClone, Character Creator and CrazyTalk 8

Nice tool...
I have zero interest in photo-mapped talking head animation...so...
As long as this CT8 "family unifying exercise" is about increasing iClone+CC user base
As long as this CT8 connection does not mean crippling (the still super-buggy) IC6 facial lipsync viseme workflow
Then I'm cool... :)

IF one is into standalone "auto-rig my/family member's face" 3D talking head animation video making
The price is reasonable for a tool that automates a few super time-consuming process
Projection texture mapping, UV unwraping, Lipsync, 3D morphing, Timeline viseme editing
Projecting onto 3D is very different from projecting onto 2.5D
RL did a great job in making it all look easy I have to say
All of which can of cos be done without CT8 if one has the skills...
and TIME, the most precious commodity.

I wish future IC6 version updates include ON-CLIP audio track volume/ crossfading like CT7.
That's all...
Cheers

By wendyluvscatz - 10 Years Ago

And as I pointed out, it still works with G5 and below, iC6 still has Gwynn and Chuck you can use for facemapping.
CC is a whole new mesh so it is fortunate at least some integration is still possible via CrazyTalk 8.

By wires - 10 Years Ago

This link is to a most interesting post by Mr. Edwards, the Forum moderator, regarding the new CT8 WIP 1 video.

.........The video is ALL about the new features of CrazyTalk 8 for CrazyTalk users. This video doesn't cover iClone export at all so I'm totally puzzled to hear comments that the information is only relevant to iClone users. To be clear the 3D head features of CrazyTalk 8 are not just for iClone users. This is the new and advanced way to create talking heads in CrazyTalk 8.

Sure 2D is still there for backwards compatibility, but 3D is the way forward for CrazyTalk and the way we expect most CT users to use the software from now on. With the 2D system we used previously there were obvious limitations with regards to how much head movement you could have. With 3D you now don't have those limitations and your character can move in a more realistic and expressive way. I would urge you to take another look at the video. You will see that everything shown is happening in CrazyTalk 8 and can be used by CrazyTalk users who don't even own or want iClone.

The most interesting statement is, IMHO, contained in the last sentence (my bold marking).

However iClone users who don't even own or want CrazyTalk are being forced to pay out a small fortune just to get back the Face fitting capabilities that have been removed from version 6!!!!!!!!! :(:sick::alien::crying::crazy:

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

wendyluvscatz (11/8/2015)

That's true, but after working with CC for a while, I find that there is absolutely no comparison as to quality. For me, G5 characters are good as extras, but will no longer be cast in major roles.

The mesh of the iClone characters has changed from early generations to today's and has always included the face-mapping option. So it's not technically impossible, but a marketing decision. It would make more sense to include it in Character Creator.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

wires (11/8/2015)

This link is to a most interesting post by Mr. Edwards, the Forum moderator, regarding the new CT8 WIP 1 video.

The problem is this assumption that CT users wanted 3D heads, and that the 2D was limited in it's range of motion. To me, that's why CT was perfect. It wasn't about 3D. The subtle motions were also perfect. It was an awesome 2D animation system. I had a blast animating photographs with, where 3D would've ruined the effect.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

That's how I always felt about CT -- granted, I was never much of a CT user, but I do think its strength was making something that looked like a drawing or photograph "come to life".

Taking a 3D head and making it talk -- that's what 3D animation is all about. As Peter says, I guess they had done all they could do with CT and wanted something to add so people would upgrade, but it doesn't seem like a very good fit at all. I could see it much better the other way around -- either in iClone or (more likely) in Character Creator. And then allow CT to import that 3D head if you really want 3D (in keeping with their "reuse all assets among programs" concept).

But what's done is done and I doubt there's any going back.

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

Imagine being able to draw a face, and bring it to life quickly with CT8 in 3D. That sounds awesome.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

CaseClosed (11/9/2015)

Imagine being able to draw a face, and bring it to life quickly with CT8 in 3D. That sounds awesome.

Imagine being able to take a photogragh, and make it come to life in pseudo-3D via 2D... Way more awesome. In comparison, doing it via 3D has been around for a while, and is easy. Making a convincing photograph come to life in 2D is a much harder challenge.

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

wires (11/8/2015)

This link is to a most interesting post by Mr. Edwards, the Forum moderator, regarding the new CT8 WIP 1 video.

......... I would urge you to take another look at the video. You will see that everything shown is happening in CrazyTalk 8 and can be used by CrazyTalk users who don't even own or want iClone.

However iClone users who don't even own or want CrazyTalk are being forced to pay out a small fortune just to get back the Face fitting capabilities that have been removed from version 6!!!!!!!!! :(:sick::alien::crying::crazy:

My sentiments exactly.

animagic (11/8/2015)

The mesh of the iClone characters has changed from early generations to today's and has always included the face-mapping option. So it's not technically impossible, but a marketing decision. It would make more sense to include it in Character Creator.

I (we) have said that before, and Peter (RL) acknowledged the request and said he'd pass it on to the team, but I feel it bears repeating.
The new face-mapping functionality should be stuck into Character Creator where it's accessible to iClone users without requiring an additional purchase. It seems so logical.

By GrannyJ - 10 Years Ago

I can only reiterate what I had previously posted in the "Create Face" discussion:
From what I understand a face creation tool of some nature has been included with iClone since its inception (I may not be correct on this point, but I know definitively it was in iC4 & iC5).
I purchased copies of Crazy Talk 7 & CT pipeline in 2013. I have used CT7 twice since purchased & have never even used CT pipeline because both are superfluous to what I do & create. The thought of purchasing another piece of SW that has no use for me other than for a single function is not pleasant.

As I can adjust facial mesh in Character Creator, and also in 3ds max after exporting via pipeline, & alter/edit/change UV maps in 3ds max, I do not see any advantage of purchasing CT8 pipeline. Furthermore, a sell point feature in iC5 & previous was the ability to create faces & customize avatars. So now, iClone 6 enthusiasts will need to purchase an additional piece of software (CT8 pipeline) to obtain iC6 functionality for G6 characters that they previously enjoyed with G5 characters in iC5 (& similarly with prior versions). It doesn't save a creator any time if they must jump between software packages to create a single character.

To place this functionality (face/head creation) in CT8 instead of Character Creator or iC6 is one way to force additional sales of CT8 to users who would otherwise ignore the product. This marketing approach may or may not work for RL.... folks who are comfortable in 3ds max or blender can accomplish the same results without purchasing additional software; for those who shy away from UV mapping altogether, this will be one solution, but may be as hard to swallow as foul tasting medicine (you know you need it but that doesn't make the taking any easier); or the marketing ploy could blow up in RL's face & they find a bleed on long-time users who seek out other 3d animation alternatives. Only time will tell.

Personally, I think it would have made more sense to add it to a version of CC & market that as a "pro" version or "ultimate" version - yes, it would still be an additional charge, but users would not have to go between another SW package (CT8) and have all of their character creation tools available in a single software program. That might have been easier to stomach than being forced to buy software that you otherwise would never use just to gain functionality for G6 characters that you had for FREE with G5 characters.
Just my opinion.... & everyone has the right to their own personal opinions.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

GrannyJ (11/9/2015)

I can only reiterate what I had previously posted in the "Create Face" discussion:
Personally, I think it would have made more sense to add it to a version of CC & market that as a "pro" version or "ultimate" version - yes, it would still be an additional charge, but users would not have to go between another SW package (CT8) and have all of their character creation tools available in a single software program. That might have been easier to stomach than being forced to buy software that you otherwise would never use just to gain functionality for G6 characters that you had for FREE with G5 characters.
Just my opinion.... & everyone has the right to their own personal opinions.

Exactly, we don't mind paying for bleeding edge functionality - especially if, including it in the current package would mean its underpriced. We are loyal and want a win/win relationship with RL so the core issue here is having a pricing model that is not insulting to customers (who would still pay anyway - but more cheerfully - if RL adopted transparent pricing!).

Baitware, Bloatware, Junkware and vaporware is not the way. If a product is no longer relevant please scrap it or change the interface and give it a new version number. Crazytalk was a 2D product. IClone is 3D. Why do I need CT if I have iClone? I have CT Animator and can count the number of times I have used it using just the fingers on one hand. Worst purchase I ever made. In fact, I loathe CTA because of its attempt to do 3D (yet it couldn't share data with iClone - my main tool).

I absolutely love iClone though.

By mtakerkart - 10 Years Ago

For me the only justification to pay 250$ for an another app is if CT8 will have Facial Mocap has describe in the Eric (RL) post. So I think we have to
wait to see the part 2 of the CT8 WIP. Because for now there's only one feature for Icloners : Facephoto mapping....

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (11/9/2015)

I agree with a lot of the iClone users about the necessity of needing CT8 in order to do facial mapping onto 3D characters. I too am an iClone user, and I disagree with this direction. However, I am also a CrazyTalk user, and I'm upset with the direction of CT as a CT user itself. There are separate instances when a project might want/need 3D, whereas iClone is a possible solution, and there are other instances when 2D is the correct solution. For 2D, you may want full body animation whereas CTA is a solution, but sometimes you just need to bring a photograph to life. Not create an avatar, not create a whole character but just bring a simple photograph to life. This is where CT shines.

Here is a sample project I put together for work, using CT. Doing this in iClone would have needed very detailed objects, and doing this in CTA would've required creating a whole body. But using CT7, I was able to knock this out, with great results, in very little time. This is what CT excels at, and it's a shame to see this swept aside for 3D. As I said, if I wanted 3D, I could use iClone. CT7 was the perfect choice for this, and many other projects just like it.

Doing this in CT8, with a 3D head would not fit or look right, the "character" would be bald, and I doubt there'd be any accessories that would fit it and it's color scheme. According to Peter, this functionality will still be present, but it'd doubtfuil any new features or enhancements have been made to this feature/capability. It would've been awsome, for another project to have a photograph of Lincoln and Grant in the same photograph, having a discussion. But that's a feature that will never be implemented, because RL doesn;t care about the 2D features anymore. All they care about is 3D, and that my friends is the real shame. 3D is not the solution for everything. There are still tons of uses for a good 2D, especially for brining photographs to life.

By JIX - 10 Years Ago

The vision for a Unified Animation Platform is pretty good. I also like software which is expandable by modules ...

but I do not like the idea of implementing the 3D Head Creator into CT8. That´s no modular design at all!

Besides this functionality was always part of iClone!

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/9/2015)

It makes complete scene why Reallusion put it in CT8....
To generate CT8 sales.

...and boy, will it generate.
The real question is, "Why do soooo many shy away from uv mapping.
It's Free!:ermm:

I shy away from it because I'm not a 3D expert, nor am I a graphic artist/expert. Mapping a face onto a UV usually involving a small amount of warping the image to make it fit correctly, and it also involves a great deal of cutting, blending, chopping, pasting, etc... Again, not everyone using iClone is a 3D expert, not a graphic expert. We use iClone because these types of things used to be handled by the app, and we didn;t have to bother with them. Manually mapping a face onto a mesh holds very little appeal to me. I am not a professional, I'm using iClone as a hobby, and it used to be a perfect app to use top not have to do all these manual acrobatics.

By JIX - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/9/2015)

It makes complete scene why Reallusion put it in CT8....
To generate CT8 sales.

...and boy, will it generate.
The real question is, "Why do soooo many shy away from uv mapping.
It's Free!:ermm:

Sorry, but the real question is, why we should pay for a functionality, which was part of iClone for ages.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/9/2015)

wizaerd (11/9/2015)

sw00000p (11/9/2015)

It makes complete scene why Reallusion put it in CT8....
To generate CT8 sales.

...and boy, will it generate.
The real question is, "Why do soooo many shy away from uv mapping.
It's Free!:ermm:

I'm NOT an expert, anything.
I just Read and Practice.

To properly place an image onto any uv.... does NOT require any expertise.
NONE whatsoever.

I understand many have absolutely NO experience uv mapping, but view Cellygon's uv mapping tutorial.
(urbanlamb has DEEP Blender experience and offer quick and accurate advice.

Please don't think you need expert skills to simply place and image onto a mesh.
Copying and Pasting in an image editor require BASIC tools usage only.

Simply Try it..... you CAN do it, too!:)

Kind Regards,
sw00000p :cool:

I have tried it, it comes out abysmal. Practice? I'm not playing piano here, I don;t have time nor the inclination to practice, got too much real stuff to do. A straight on photo will not fit onto a mesh without manipulations if you want it to look good and right. Even Cellygon said the tutorial was a quickie, and didn;t include the minute detail tweaking this type of thing would normally require, and was significantly edited to remove large portions of it for time purposes. Not everybody wants to do this. Normally, I don;t want to mess with textures at all, I'm far more interested in animating, not UV mapping. OMG, people have different interests? Egads...

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Right.

I liken it to the days when I could buy my own PC and save tons of money. Easy peasy, even for a non-hardware sort of person (I'm a programmer by nature). But... haven't done that for many decades now, and never would (well, never say never). I'd FAR rather pay more and get less than to waste my time (which is worth WAY more than any savings): and this is true of nearly everything I do nowadays.

So, yes, with a lot of time and effort you can get great results -- but well written software can save you a lot of time and effort. There isn't a price too high for that (they ain't making any more time).

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

About "getting under the hood"...

I used to change the oil on my car, and scoffed at people who went to the oil change shop.
I can change brake pads and rotors, too.
That means I can save a lot of money by "getting under the hood" of my car.

But at some point I lose the desire to do certain repairs, regardless of my confidence in being handy and mechanically inclined. I don't want to buy all the tools necessary. I don't want to clutter up my garage while I pull the engine or work on the transmission. I could learn how, and I could do it, but I don't want to.

For some jobs, I will have someone else do it, or I'll trade in my car for a new one.

Likewise with photo-to-face mapping.

I could mess with UVs and stuff. But I really liked the demo for the updated functionality. I would much rather use that in an iClone environment than to get under the hood.

If I can get 97% of the result, with only 30% of the effort, that's a huge win in my book. I don't need that last bit of final polish.

Sadly, it's not in an iClone environment.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Thank you all for the feedback regarding the recent CrazyTalk 8 announcement. We do appreciate you taking the time to share your views.

I can assure you all that we are listening and we will be reviewing all the points raised.

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

Speaking of UV maps ,the guy with the hat and braids thats advertised for CT8,how did they get the skin like texture and still look like a caracature?
Can this look be achieved in photoshop or gimp ?

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/9/2015)

All I'm trying to point out is this.....

Reallusion chose to remove "Facial Fitting" EZ Button for iClone 6 and exclude it from CC,
....and WISELY add it to CT8.

Those whom DON'T have time, nor the desire to do if for "Free!"
PAY $$ and don't complain!

Complaints are entirely valid for the user base who've had this feature all along, then was removed, and to now get it back requires $$. And forcing iClone user to purchase yet another piece of software to get the afore mentioned free capability they've always had access to. It's a valid & legitimate complaint. So glad you're happy with the decision, but others are not nor do they have to be because you said so. Not to mention the former CT users who now have to put up with a whole new slew of functionality that was neither asked for nor desired. So people, keep complaining all you want.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/9/2015)

All I'm trying to point out is this.....
Reallusion chose to remove "Facial Fitting" EZ Button for iClone 6 and exclude it from CC,
....and WISELY add it to CT8.
Those whom DON'T have time, nor the desire to do if for "Free!"
PAY $$ and don't complain!

sw00000p, you might be on to something. I don't want to be closed minded so let me challenge you to show us a demo instead to allow for objective conclusions. How quickly you can produce a 15 minute, complete (as in finished product), animated clip with your free methods? Please can you show us a sample using any public domain script or your own script.

I am mainly interested in seeing the speed and quality of your workflow. You up to the challenge? If yes, please commit to a due date and lets touch base on that day.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

justaviking (11/7/2015)

Peter (RL) (9/6/2015)

wizaerd (9/3/2015)

Hi Viking,

As you may know I have been on this forum for many years and during that time I have always fought to get the answers to questions and provide news of what's coming as soon as possible. Sadly reading your quoted post above proves to me that I was wrong to do so.

The statements I made in the post you have quoted was based on the information available to me at that time. To be clear while nothing in that post is incorrect, I do agree that it doesn't explain all the details but that's because these weren't finalised at that time. I was simply answering a question with the information I knew at the time.

Regrettably seeing the lengths that were taken to track down this post and the way it is presented makes me strongly believe that I will need to employ a more "closed door" approach to providing information that hasn't been finalised in the future.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

Fair enough sw00000p. To each his own. Btw. I am a big fan and genuinely like your tutorials and the way you challenge us to think outside "the box". Keep up the good work!

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/9/2015)

Regrettably seeing the lengths that were taken to track down this post and the way it is presented makes me strongly believe that I will need to employ a more "closed door" approach to providing information that hasn't been finalised in the future.

Unfortunately that's kind of what I predicted would happen, but totally understandable.

For me, I'd rather have early, somewhat inaccurate (but useful) information than to lose this sort of access. But I do think others here have read far more into what you said than was wise. It's also one of the reasons I have treasured my beta status (which requires an NDA so I don't blow this kind of stuff up) with many software companies regardless of the amount of work it has required.

Sorry it shook out this way, Peter -- I, at least, appreciated knowing this was coming even if not quite the direction it finally came in.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/9/2015)

justaviking (11/7/2015)

Peter (RL) (9/6/2015)

wizaerd (9/3/2015)

Hi Peter, thanks for joining the discussion. I think Viking's goal is not to pin you down unfairly but rather to show the commonality that existed in the line of thinking - at that time - between the user community and RL. It made sense that you had certain assumptions about Face mapping and those assumptions, when put in context, make perfect sense. What I see is more of a cry for help than a "reverse betrayal". Viking is reminding you of this common line of thought that once existed and is appealing to you as a trusted go-between to mediate with the RL team that made the roadmap proposal so that long-time customers don't feel betrayed. That's how I interpreted it.

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/9/2015)

I know it's a delicate balance; trying to share information at the risk of things changing.

As I recall, I was one of Reallusion's (and your) strongest supporters when the initial release of iClone 6 was delayed, and some features were pushed back from the initial release to later updates. When I thought people were being unfairly harsh, and questioning Reallusion's ethics, I stood by your side. Some people accused me of being a sycophantic fanboy. I'm definitely a fan, but not a lap dog.

The statements I made in the post you have quoted was based on the information available to me at that time. To be clear while nothing in that post is incorrect, I do agree that it doesn't explain all the details but that's because these weren't finalised at that time. I was simply answering a question with the information I knew at the time.

I also want to reiterate my statement in another post that I (we) know you are merely the messenger and strive to do your best with the information you have available to you. Don't worry, you didn't come across as personally defensive, but I wanted to state again that we do appreciate your efforts.

I wouldn't say I went to any great lengths. It was one simple search.

The reason I searched was some people were wondering why "we" were surprised the new functionality is not available to iClone users that don't own Crazy Talk. After my fiasco of being unable to defend my conviction that a PBR shader was planned for iC6.x, I wanted to see if I could find out *why* some of us seemed to assume this new photo-fitting functionality would be in iClone. This time I easily found a post that explained why we had the understanding we did. I didn't bother searching for others.

Even if the interpretation was a failure on our part, I wanted to convey why we had the expectations we did.

CLOSING:

Maybe I shouldn't have used large font and the word "betrayed." Probably poor judgment on my part. I didn't mean to say it was done intentionally, only that there was a reason for our "surprise."

For that, I apologize.

As I also stated elsewhere, I am (and others are) very understanding and tolerant of slipped schedules, things pushed back to a later update, and modifications to planned functionality. This seemed like non-of-the-above, but felt more like a bait-and-switch. Intentional or not (and I assume "not"), that is how it felt to those of us who are not Crazy Talk owners but were looking forward to this new, fantastic functionality for G6 faces.

No hate. Frustration, disappointment, and some aggravation, yes, but I hope that is at least understandable, especially in light of the information we had available to us.

Should you communicate less? I hope not. I know there are always marketing constraints in addition to technical risks when announcing future plan and product roadmaps, but usually Reallusion has delivered on promises, and has often surprised us with more than expected.

We're always looking for more reasons to promote iClone and remain hopeful for the future while remaining faithful customers. Missteps and mistakes can happen, but please don't shut down communications because of me.

Moving forward I hope for four things:
1) Please continue to share *plans* as much as possible
2) We both strive to learn and improve - How to more clearly position future plans, and how to keep "plans" in context
3) Continual clarification as things change, as early as possible
4) Momentary emotions set aside, I truly hope this cool new functionality can be baked into Character Creator in a future update

Peace.

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (11/9/2015)

Hi Peter, thanks for joining the discussion. I think Viking's goal is not to pin you down unfairly but rather to show the commonality that existed in the line of thinking - at that time - between the user community and RL. [snip] Viking is reminding you of this common line of thought that once existed and is appealing to you as a trusted go-between to mediate with the RL team that made the roadmap proposal so that long-time customers don't feel betrayed. That's how I interpreted it.

Perfectly and succinctly stated. Thank you.

By mtakerkart - 10 Years Ago

just my 2 cents:

When you write a message with caps lock 15 times bigger than normal ,it could be interpreted as many ways on web.... ;-)
Today I'am zen with RL road map even the last time changing because it's the RL way and it surprised me than veterans users near a decade didn't
understand that. RL is a company that have business to hold and certainly manage with investors and bank (I was producer in my young life too ;-)
So today the uncertain and volatil market is the digital market , so I understand why the software development is always changing it's map....
Look at all the threads talking about mixamo adobe autodesk faceshift etc changing their roadmap without talking to customers ...
Today if I make money with Reallusion app , 250$ won't be a catastrophe budget , it's the price of my 2 winter wheels....

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

Reallusion is taking this whole 3d thing to a whole other level,having separate programs for different stages of character development allows for much more detail and refinement.I've been using Iclone since version one and it is pretty amazing how far Reallusion has takin this in such a short period of time!.With the integration of programs into one design system we now have the capability to unleash our imagination without limits:)!!!!!-THANK YOU REALLUSION!!!!!

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

Heck,it wasn't that long ago that dynamic hair and clothing were just a nice thought!

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

mtakerkart (11/9/2015)

just my 2 cents:

When you write a message with caps lock 15 times bigger than normal ,it could be interpreted as many ways on web....

So true.
I have a habit of typing long posts.
My large, upper-case text was intended to be a "Title" that wouldn't get lost in the noise.
I may have gotten carried away.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

TonyTiger (11/9/2015)

RL could be at that point where they need to consider an "Enterprise" (multi-user) version of iClone. You install iclone and content on a central server, and each user logs in via a LAN (Local Area Network). Access levels would restrict a user to a specific functionality (e.g. 3D head). Payment model would be for the core app plus additional "access levels" (menu functions). This would facilitate team-based development and take iClone and iClone content to a whole new league. My wish is to have multiple people working on a single project. Each person specializes on one thing only (as assigned by me, the admin/power user) or two people work on one thing - with version control (check-in/checkout features) etc. This is the roadmap that RL is looking for and am giving it to them for free (hey, I used to get paid to give such kind of advice. Now how about that for customer loyalty?!!)

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (11/9/2015)

TonyTiger (11/9/2015)

An application to model the feet, an application to model the legs... Hmmm in the event of a peg legged pirate, maybe there should be separate applications for each leg, so 2 users could do each leg independently... An application for the arms, again separate.. because one of the arms might have a tattoo on it. A torso application, etc...

We should all jump up and down and thank Reallusion for the opportunity to charge us more, and take more of our money by forcing us to buy a myriad of applications just to create 1 character, and by charging premium prices to provide the same capability they've been using for years already...

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

wizaerd (11/10/2015)

pmaina (11/9/2015)

TonyTiger (11/9/2015)

Not at all. What I mean is, while one person is customizing characters, another one is building the scene/stage (lighting etc), another person is tweaking the individual props and another one is animating dummy characters (that will be replaced with final characters etc) ...and all that is happening at the same time. Am talking about parallel "production-line" workflows that will cut down production time significantly for those willing to team up or hire people. The functionalities are all in one app however the "enterprise" licensing model is linked to access level (functionality) and number of users accessing that level. This is not a replacement for standalone "pro version" which would continue to exist for the hobbyists and solo animators. This is the ideal "nextgen iclone" roadmap as I see it.

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

Do most iClone users who find this jarring also own Crazytalk?

From some years of watching user-dynamics, I've seen that many users like to buy all the main RL programs, whether or not they actually use them.

Crazytalk is, I'm pretty sure, RL's bread-and-butter. They needed to bring something new to it to stay ahead of other similar software, and also found a great marketing oppertunity for those that actually need cutting-edge photo face-mapping in iClone. Photo face-mapping IS what makes Crazytalk work. Facial mocap will probably show up there when it shows up as well. Again, it really is the basis of what makes Crazytalk work at all. Stretching a 2D image only goes so far, and frankly, looks kind of crappy.

It seems a bit of a shock for hobbyists, yes, but if your serious about production with either iClone or Crazytalk, you can probably pay for it.

Those faces should also not need an export license like faces that use the CC Essential morphs.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

rampa (11/10/2015)

I own both, but I use them for completely different things. I posted a video earlier of the type of thing I use CrazyTalk for that if I had done it in iClone would've taken forever, and even in CTA would have taken more time and effort, but was perfect for CrazyTalk. This was done in about 2 and a half hours...

I am not keen on this new approach at all. As an iClone user or as a CrazyTalk user.

By urbanlamb - 10 Years Ago

I am always happy to see new stuff and I dont photomap but I can see them add something to crazytalk like this and I am quite curious to see the directions they are going. I am not really seeing the huge problem because you dont really need photomapping to create good 3d looks for iclone now since we have the character creator. I think you can achieve superior results without this feature so to me it makes sense to have it in crazytalk as its a more simple software layout. I also have the crazytalk animator and i want to see what else they are adding to it, but so far all the big stuff has been inside iclone itself.

I dont photomap though and I am very happy with the Character creator. I truly love it to bits. I have a friend who picked it up and one of the first things to pop out of it was a charicature of Bruce Willis and he now loves the CC to bits now as well. Since the CC can do this I dont see the huge need for it inside iclone and actually think considering what it does .. it belongs more with crazytalk since they are adding some 3d ability.

I wont be purchasing ahead of time, but will likely be updating my crazytalk animator when it comes out as I enjoy that for things as well.

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

I wonder if the 3D photo-mapped faces have normal and specular maps generated from them? The pores are probably a normal map, but I wonder if does any other bumping, like eyebrows and wrinkles from the original image? The face-shine (glare) would certainly make that difficult.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

I am probably missing something, but what is the difference between 3D CrazyTalk and just doing a headshot in iClone...:unsure:

As to another question, I have CrazyTalk 7 Pro. I have not used it. I also have CTA 2 Pipeline that I never use. I've found that I have no affinity for 2D..:crying:

I can only hope that the upgrade price from CTA 7 Pro to CTA 8 Pipeline will be something reasonable...

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

There have been a lot of great comments on this thread.
Justaviking used A LARGE FONT because he was pissed and felt betrayed. His feelings are legitimate, and he's not being unreasonable. I think it is unfair to try to make him feel bad.
Peter acknowledged that a mistake was made, but it wasn't meant to be manipulative. It was just a big mistake.

Lessons learned:
Reallusion should not be too specific about what is coming in the future.
Reallusion supporters should not become too attached to what they believe is around the corner.

In fact, maybe Reallusion shouldn't tell us about anything that's coming because surprising us might get the best results.

I don't need the face-mapper at this time, but there could be an opportunity, and I will have a great software from Reallusion that I can buy and it will fit right into the workflow. :D

I encourage Reallusion to keep the software coming. (Hair and Clothes!!) Build the empire :D

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

I don't think there is a need to crawl in the dust now and express our eternal gratitude. Financial considerations aside (I'm done with those), there are still many questions about the roadmap that have not been fully discussed in my mind by those who actually have and use iClone 6 (I'm not really interested in "under the hood" lectures). A discussion of the roadmap was the initial purpose of this thread, but, uh well, some of us (including me I'm afraid) got a bit carried away...:blush:

For example, where will the actual iClone animation functionality reside and what improvements can be expected? There have been postings about an affordable animation tool (with a difficult name with "key" in it), so one idea would be to have an interface with such affordable 3rd-part animation tools.

Also, will the interplay between the various modules be reliable and straightforward? I'm mentioning this because going between CT and IC, which used to be the old method for doing lip-synching pre IC 5, was kind of a hassle.

Also, what is the relationship between facial animation created in CT and the same created in IC? According to some, the quality achievable in CT 7 was better than that in IC5. I can't confirm that but it's a thought. And, yes, the incompatibility between CT and IC was lost and has now been restored.

What can be expected in the way of rendering? Indigo is great for some work, but it is currently a resource hog when trying to render animated scenes of any complexity. A think a better render solution should be part of the road map. I find the native renderer much improved in iClone 6, but I'm sorry I purchased Indigo (I could have bought CTA 8 Pipeline for that money...:P), as it is mainly unused.

Related to that, where are we with the "plugin" architecture and what role does that play in the roadmap?

I am a sole animator, so team approaches are not a consideration, but an enterprise version may open up a new market. I believe something like that has been suggested some time ago as well. I am interested in a capable and complete solution, so that I don't have to visit too many other 3D programs to get my work done.

I do have a concern that is financial in nature and that is that keeping iClone and supporting software up-to-date will become more expensive if the functionality is spread out. A full iClone suite for me would include 3DX and CT and usually there is no full compatibility between different software generations, i.e., iClone 6 requires 3DX 6.

By SeanMac - 10 Years Ago

Hi animagic

I agree with all of that. Sure we all understand that Reallusion is a commercial company and has to make money to stay in existence. And we all want it to stay in existence, so far. But there are new competitors in the real time animation space out there. They are, as yet, nowhere near as good as iClone.

Is it possible for Reallusion to irritate the stakeholders out here, the paying customers, so much that they will jump ship? Not as yet, IMO.

There are threads on this forum that ask for our wish list of new features. That is not enough.

Reallusion as a company shouldn't care about where the development path leads. There are programming considerations involving time and complexity. Aside from those considerations the users, I think, should be invited to contribute to that development path.

The way I read the forum it seems to me to divide into a number of groups each of which is motivated differently. Obviously others can see different groups, but here's a few: moviemakers, game creators, pre-viz operators, graphic novelists. Each, and there are more I haven't thought of, would have a different wish list.

Reallusion can either go the Autodesk route and build a massive package for doing everything, or build a central workbench with a plug-in architecture. They seem to be going in the latter direction.

But they also seem to be more focussed on marketing what they already have in order to get more money from their existing users rather than widening that base by making their tools easier and smoother to use, more effective and in line with the .needs of various groups of users. It a simple forecast to see this path will inevitably kill the company.

In this time we live in, a company with a heavily involved user base must absolutely listen to their user base and explain and act and reward their dedication. That way Reallusion will grow, flourish and prosper.

A consummation devoutly to be wished by all interested parties.

By Eric (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Hello everyone!

Thank you all for the valuable feedback. At Reallusion we are very excited to share with you our vision and roadmaps on the future connectivity of our tools. We have put in a lot of effort and resources to offer you a more complete suite of applications and features that will allow everyone to better exploit their creativity.

With this said, we would like to clarify that our intention was never to mislead the community, especially our trusted power users whom have been with us for many years, but to be prudent on what we were capable of delivering, and when. On the forums, we understand that many feel uneasy about the incomplete product information, and the lack of upgrade pricing.

UPGRADE OPTIONS

Reallusion has been running this kind of pre-sale campaign for several years, where users have always had the option of purchasing additional tools, or content, to get a new tool for free. These promotional campaigns are usually designed to benefit new entry-level users. Reallusion has also always provided loyal users a special upgrade pricing that is usually announced once the pre-sale stage is over.

Based on the comments here, it seems that we underestimated the need for the 3D Head Creator, and that was an oversight from us not to properly explain the difference between pre-sale promotional event and the future upgrade pricing.

All in all, when CrazyTalk 8 launches in December, all current iClone 6 Pro users will be able to acquire CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline with a great special promotional discount. However for those who need additional content, getting CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline free from the $249 promotional deal is still an unbeatable value, as it has additional facial animation capabilities that will make it an imperative tool for any professional iClone user.

NEW 3D HEAD CREATOR

As for the original face fitting tool in iClone 5, this feature was never removed in iClone 6. Users can still select a G5 character, go to the modify column, import an image and continue generating their own custom avatars with the previous tool.

After launching the Character Creator tool, what we have done is to significantly enhance the creation of 3D characters by not just allowing users to import photographs, but by also allowing them to use sliders to morph a brand new Character Creator mesh standard that runs parallel to iClone, offering all this at an unbeatable value which cannot be found anywhere else.

We now call this, the new 3D Head Creator, which will eventually be a separate universal module for CrazyTalk 8, iClone 6 and Character Creator. Obviously, for development reasons we first had to add this module into CrazyTalk 8, as it is the first step in this multi-tool 3D integration process.

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/10/2015)

Thank you for your reply Eric and interesting that the Head Creator will eventually become a separate universal module (which seems to fit in better with your roadmap), but leaves me feeling a bit uneasy that even if you buy CT8 to get it you will then need to purchase it again as a separate module?

Also find the statement "Obviously, for development reasons we first had to add this module into CrazyTalk 8, as it is the first step in this multi-tool 3D integration process." Why? Could it not have been a separate module from the off which was bundled with CT8 and available as a separate bought plug-in for Iclone?

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/10/2015)

All in all, when CrazyTalk 8 launches in December, all current iClone 6 Pro users will be able to acquire CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline with a great special promotional discount. However for those who need additional content, getting CrazyTalk 8 free from the $249 promotional deal is still an unbeatable value, as it has additional facial animation capabilities that will make it an imperative tool for any professional iClone user.

And let me also thank you, Eric, for the detailed explanation, but it has also left ME with a huge question: originally I asked whether Pipeline included CT8 or not, and was told it did. Now you are saying it doesn't? So you can either get CT8 free for $200 of content, or CT8 Pipeline, which does not include CT8, for $250 in content?

Now I am REALLY confused. Really, really clarification on this before this pre-order offer goes away. I want all the tools I may need to do iClone animation -- could care less about anything in CT. But if there ARE additional animation tools for facial stuff that will only be available in CT8, and that are not part of this Pipeline offer, I need to know (and need to know how the $250 Pipeline offer now differs from the Pipeline that will be offered after it's released, because that's REALLY confusing).

By Eric (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Hi Kelleytoons,

Thank you for bringing this up. I made a mistake in my previous post, and this is now corrected. For spending $249 on content now, you will receive CT8 Pipeline version for free. For spending $199 on content, you will receive CT8 Pro version for free. We'll have more excellent Featured Developer content that will be released in the coming weeks. Of course the version of interest for iClone folks here will be the Pipeline version, since this is the only version that will enable users to export the 3D head to iClone 6 and Character Creator.

As for the version, the CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline version will most definitely include every feature CrazyTalk 8 Standard and Pro has to offer, including animation. Simply put, CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline is the "ultimate" version of CrazyTalk 8.

Check out http://www.reallusion.com/event/CrazyTalk8-Presale/ and scroll down to the bottom for a detailed comparison.

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons
The Pipeline Version of Crazy Talk 8 will include all the functionality within Crazy Talk 8 but will also allow you to interface with CC and IC. This is clearly stated in the version comparison. Eric is just using CT8 as a generic term and talking about the pipeline version when he is referring to Iclone users as that is what you will need to benefit from the head cration software in Iclone.
Bugger, Eric beat me to it!

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

Eric

Can I ask why 3dx6 Pro is not included in the promotional event (for a free copy of CT8 Pro) when Iclone 6 Pro and Crazy Talk Animator 2 Pro are?

By mtakerkart - 10 Years Ago

For spending $249 on content now, you will receive CT8 Pipeline version for free

Thank you very much Eric(RL) , now it's very clear for my non english brain :-)

additional facial animation capabilities that will make it an imperative tool for any professional iClone user

Whaaaaaaat????? Sooooooo mysterious........... Please show us the WIP part 2 :w00t:

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

No, that's okay, I just wanted things to be CRYSTAL clear, since lately folks have been a bit confused.

What I hear you saying, Eric, is that perhaps those of us who have worried we were getting abused by Real Illusion should at the very least wait and see what we will actually have to pay for the Pipeline version, as that particular cost may be quite a bit different than we assumed for those of us who own iClone 6 and perhaps other products. That, I am sure, will be of great news to all (it is to me -- as an old guy on a fixed income I do have to be careful about what I spend, even if I'm sometimes not :>).

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/10/2015)

We now call this, the new 3D Head Creator, which will eventually be a separate universal module for CrazyTalk 8, iClone 6 and Character Creator. Obviously, for development reasons we first had to add this module into CrazyTalk 8, as it is the first step in this multi-tool 3D integration process.

Ok, now wait a minute... It's being included in CT8, a whole version is being built around it in the form of a Pipeline version, and is a test bed for the universal module approach. But eventually this 3D Head Creator will become a universal module in and of itself, and as such it''ll be removed from CT8, made it's own separate application, and will get yet another new cost associated with it? SO the business plan is to force RL customer to buy a bunch of products, rip out said functionality of those products, build new products around them, and charge twice as much for double applications?

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

Just to make your day Eric how much to upgrade from CT8 Pro to Pipeline?

By videodv - 10 Years Ago

After reading about this new approach from RL I think I am going to wait and see before I purchase any new content as I feel at the moment RL is going in a direction that I will not be following but I will wait and see for a while before making my mine up if I will continue with iClone and associated programs.

Regards
Videodv.

By JIX - 10 Years Ago

Well true, but seriously who wants to create a G5, if there is G6 and CC?! ;)

Well true, but tell us something we don´t know already. ;)

Why eventually?! Why not from the beginning?! You guys were able to launch the CC as a separate module right away. Now that would be a real modularity and every user could build his own RL tool set for his personal needs. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication! ;)

Anyways ... thanks for the additional informations, Eric.

By wires - 10 Years Ago

@ Eric,

Thank you very much for the information. I will now patiently await the release of the stand-alone Face Builder module. I do not use, or want, CrazyTalk.

By theschemer - 10 Years Ago

@Eric,
Thanks for the clarification. It all sounds fine to me. :)
TS

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/10/2015)

(annotated)

NEW 3D HEAD CREATOR

P1) As for the original face fitting tool in iClone 5, this feature was never removed in iClone 6. Users can still select a G5 character, go to the modify column, import an image and continue generating their own custom avatars with the previous tool.

P2) After launching the Character Creator tool, what we have done is to significantly enhance the creation of 3D characters by not just allowing users to import photographs, but by also allowing them to use sliders to morph a brand new Character Creator mesh standard that runs parallel to iClone, offering all this at an unbeatable value which cannot be found anywhere else.

P3) We now call this, the new 3D Head Creator, which will eventually be a separate universal module for CrazyTalk 8, iClone 6 and Character Creator. Obviously, for development reasons we first had to add this module into CrazyTalk 8, as it is the first step in this multi-tool 3D integration process.

Eric,

Thank you for the information.

I am desperately NOT trying to cause any trouble, and I am NOT trying to twist your words. I only hope to clarify a couple of points, bi-directionally.

P1 - What you say is true.
But can I make a skinny or overweight person and apply a photo to the face? No. I can only do one or the other.
I need Character Creator to change the body using G6 avatars, and I can map a face to a G5 avatar. I can't do both.
That's a "product miss" in the opinion of a number of iClone customers.
So we started asking if we would someday be able to map photos to G6 characters, and we thought the answer was, "Yes," but it turned out to be, "No, unless you buy more software," which lead to the recent brouhaha.

P2 - "After launching the Character Creator tool, what we have done is to significantly enhance the creation of 3D characters by not just allowing users to import photographs..."

That's a great example of how miscommunication occurs.

When I read this paragraph (P2), it still sounds like we can import photographs into Character Creator. It's all in the same sentence, and there is no indication that you're talking about separate pieces of software and two different, incompatible generations of avatars.

I don't know, maybe it's just me.

Also, it goes on to say, "a brand new Character Creator mesh standard that runs parallel to iClone." I think of that as a separate but tightly-coupled "module." I need to buy Character Creator, which runs parallel to iClone? Okay. The same paragraph talks about iClone, Character Creator, and mapping photos to phaces. Where does it say I also need Crazy Talk. Not just Basic or Pro, but the most expensive Pipeline version?

P3 - "the new 3D Head Creator, which will eventually be a separate universal module for CrazyTalk 8, iClone 6 and Character Creator"

Now THIS is the sort of "product direction" we like to hear about. It doesn't need to get into details, but knowing Character Creator and 3D Head Creator will be separate modules is nice to know.

But I would interpret that to mean: a) Crazy Talk users could buy it and use it, and b) iClone 6 users (with Character Creator) could also buy it and use it.

Will the iClone 6 user need Crazy Talk? It doesn't say that. Or maybe Crazy Talk users need iClone? No? Why not? It doesn't say either way. Lastly, do you need both iClong 6 *and* Character Creator for the 3D Head Creator to work?

Are there any other things we'll need to buy? We'd rather know now that after it's released.

If this new 3D Head Creator works with the existing Character Creator, and it includes the "lost" ability to map photos to faces, and does *not* rely on Crazy Talk Pipeline, then I think we're in a good position going forward; we'll just have to wait for the 3D Head Creator model and iC6.x and CC updates that play nicely with it.

Closing - Please let me know where I'm reading this horribly wrong, and clarify as necessary. Thank you.

By erisku - 10 Years Ago

Hi Eric

With the last post I think you explained all that was needed and I now understand it better.

I just bought the content and will wait for Dec. launch. It's very good that you listen to your customers. And since the new face module with be a lot more powerful we can live with the fact we have to purchase it separately.

I just hope you would do the same with Mocap Xbox one and make it powerfull and advanced the same.

regards
Eris.

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

If Reallusion is using a modular approach, I applaud them wholeheartedly. wizaard u complained A LOT about how you don't want the 3D head creator in CT8, and Reallusion listened, so now you are complaining that the head creator will be separate? Please don't be in attack mode for everything Reallusion says; otherwise, it seems you have some deeper hurt feelings that you are not bringing to the forefront, and the suppression of those feelings makes you hate Reallusion no matter what they do. We need your positive constructive contributions brother.

Reallusion reps have admitted Reallusion doesn't get everything right, and they are listening and making adjustment. For anybody that doesn't want the head creator, then this is perfect. You won't have to buy it. That's the whole advantage of the modular approach. Rather than paying $3000 for a dinosaur software that will take you months to figure out, you only buy the modules that you need to create amazing fantastic results.

It's a win/win.

For anybody who is still hurt that iClone and CC don't have the face-mapper head creator, please let it go. Look at the Character Creator. and how fantastic that is. Other users have already demonstrated in detail how easy it is to use CC to create a face mapped by photographs. Your face-mapper is already in there.

Reallusion is stepping up to the plate. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that some more wow-factor modules are coming our way.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

I agree that Eric's explanation was helpful. RL is a company that listens, unlike many others in the creative field.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

CaseClosed (11/10/2015)

No it'll eventually be a separate thing. So buy it in CT8 now, then buy it as a separate app later. Sure does sound like a win, win. For RL, cuz they get your money twice. Maybe even three times. My complaint has never been that it's in CT8. Re-read them. My complaint is charging us for features and functionality that has always been included in IC, and screwing up my CT app, making it an addon for iClone when it was it's own entity. If RL were in fact listening, CT8 would be an entirely different beast altogether, with actual CT features instead of IC features.

My complaint is with RL's marketing and charging us over and over for the same functionality.

By JIX - 10 Years Ago

My complaint is with RL's marketing and charging us over and over for the same functionality.

There is a very simple and effective method to complain: Just don´t buy it!

The marketing dept. will be forced to drop the prices in the long run.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

justaviking (11/9/2015)

Peter (RL) (11/9/2015)

Hi Viking,

Thanks for explaining more. I appreciate it. To be clear my issue was not with quoting a post I made because all posts are public so you have every right. My issue was just that the presentation and analysis of each word seemed a little extreme. That said I fully understand the frustration being felt by everyone so I get where you were coming from. :)

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

wizaerd (11/10/2015)

I can't speak for Eric but I didn't see anywhere where he said you would have to pay twice for the same thing. :ermm:

By jann - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/10/2015)

... All in all, when CrazyTalk 8 launches in December, all current iClone 6 Pro users will be able to acquire CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline with a great special promotional discount. However for those who need additional content, getting CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline free from the $249 promotional deal is still an unbeatable value, as it has additional facial animation capabilities that will make it an imperative tool for any professional iClone user.

So, how much will this "great special promotional discount" price be?

...We now call this, the new 3D Head Creator, which will eventually be a separate universal module for CrazyTalk 8, iClone 6 and Character Creator. Obviously, for development reasons we first had to add this module into CrazyTalk 8, as it is the first step in this multi-tool 3D integration process.

Is the 3D Head Creator functionality (for iClone) same as in CT8 Pipeline? What is the price?

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/10/2015)

wizaerd (11/10/2015)

My complaint is with RL's marketing and charging us over and over for the same functionality.

I can't speak for Eric but I didn't see anywhere where he said you would have to pay twice for the same thing. :ermm:

I think the reasoning goes like this...

> Want to do photo-mapping on G6 characters into iClone today?
> Buy CT8 Pipeline today. <-- First purchase

> In the future, this will be built into the 3D Head Creator.
> Buy the 3D Head Creator. <-- Second purchase

QUESTION 1: Should we assume the 3D Head Creator is a paid-for module, or a "free" add-on to our existing product(s)?
QUESTION 2: When the 3D Head Creator comes out, will iClone 6 users still need CT8 Pipeline for anything?
QUESTION 3: If you already have CT8 Pipeline, will there be any value in purchasing the 3D Head Creator?

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

Look, a company can't say everything they share with each other internally, but they want to keep customers encouraged about what's coming in the future.

All companies, big or small, will make mistakes, and if they are treading new ground, then they have to figure out a way forward because there is no formula.

Some companies wait until others figure out the way forward, and then follow suit (microsoft waits for others to innovate). Reallusion is being innovative. They are up against monsters, and it seems they are trying to figure out how to sustain a business while providing software that their customers will fall in love with.

Let's encourage them to keep making software that allows us to bring our imagination to life, easily, without technical issues, and at a more-than-reasonable price point.

Peter implied that CT8 owners will not have to pay for the head creator. I guarantee that's all he can say right now, and he probably shouldn't have said that for the reason that people will demand more info. Reallusion has no desire to piss off its customer base. Hopefully, with the modular approach, they can have a development team on each module, rather than having too many cooks in the kitchen trying to fit all the ideas into one dinosaur software, and that means we will get more toys, and sooner.

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

Just checked out Reallusion's youtube channel and went back to Iclone version 1.If anyone is in doubt as to RL'S commentment to excellence in the 3d world go back and watch the vids and I think it will give everyone a appreciation for what RL has accomplished-PRETTY DAM AMAZING!!!!!

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

It is important to remember who you are, and what your own "big picture" is. Over the years, there has developed a culture of complaining perpetrated by the usual suspects. They are also the same ones who buy all the products anyway. Nor do a few usual suspects on the US forum make a lick of difference in RL's future plans.

Time to find a new strategy besides hollering to make your points. I know all of you are capable of creating compelling work with iClone/Crazytalk. But if you don't, RL knows that the direction it goes ultimately does not matter to you.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

TonyTiger (11/10/2015)

I've had iClone since version 1.5, and in comparison to the rest of the 3D world, it's not been very amazing at all. Photo mapping was amazing, but as far as the rest of it, they're behind the times for most 3D innovations. Even their game engine, which iClone is built on top of to provide the real time 3D capabilities is behind the current 3D engines. Ease of use and convenience is what iClone offers, although even now it's not nearly as convienent given all the work arounds one has to do to accomplish serious 3D movie making.

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

And these better 3d programs are?????????????????????????

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

I would like to see a render engine capable of rendering animations with the quality similar to Iray

By JIX - 10 Years Ago

TonyTiger (11/10/2015)

Sorry, but that´s not a convincing argument. It´s like comparing an Intel 8080 with the newest Skylake. Of course there is some progress ...

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

I am pleased to see this thread heading in the right direction now. Over the years we nag Peter to death to tell us what is coming and in most cases the final product is miles away. In the car industry a design halfway through to the final product can be like two different models and the bean counters given half the chance would take the seats away to save money. There are so many factors that come into play some will be technical "if we add that now it will die in the ar*e due to bug etc" and we all know how quickly we come to this forum to let them know when it goes pear shaped. This forum itself is one of the most lenient I am member of and RL let us all have our say I rarely see "Deleted Post" that speaks volumes for this company and it's forum moderators. I moderate a Daz forum so anybody who has skimmed past one of those recently will know I have had a tough 10 or so days I took the RL approach from here and let the members vent and if I was to follow our TOS to the letter I would be left with the title and about 6 posts. It is quite lengthy and none of it I care to repeat. You lot here are a bit soft LOL. Anyways the last thing we need is Peter to clam up in fear of having something he said 6-7 months before release given on info he had available at the time dragged up on him because we couldn't wait and at least we know they are looking at implementing it at some stage. The only "real" money so to speak is the new sales because once the user enters the RL world the member upgrade pricing is exceptional and as always all the RL tools and applications come under this scheme so I will buy what is needed if it works with my flow and based on RL's recent release CC we know this next addition will be killer. I am in the same boat with the CTA2 Pipeline it doesn't get utilized but I did get it on the content scheme and everything I purchased was for iClone and content I wanted anyway so one day hopefully soon I will get stuck in. I am using the same philosophy with CT8 it is easier. I did take a couple of things away from this thread and that is (1) I need the CT8 pipeline not pro to take the 3D heads to iClone so I will upgrade when time. (2) There is some old people using iClone which I think is great. Maybe I will use the term elderly it sounds better. The only thing I choked on this entire thread was my thought for the pensioners, retirees I can see that as RL makes progress these good folk may get left out in the cold by no fault of their own with limited budgets it is hard enough to pay their utilities to even consider application updates heading into this sort of price range no matter which angle it is offered. I'm am thinking these elderly members have supported RL for quite some time and their previous purchases played a big role in where we are today with all our features. Considering some will never be able to afford to buy content to get "free" in the time frame perhaps RL should at the very least consider a strategy to help these upstanding pillars of our community.

Thank you

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

TonyTiger (11/10/2015)

And these better 3d programs are?????????????????????????

All of them. iClone is not really known as a 3D application, it's more of a movie making app. Practically any 3D app does 3D better, and even the free 3D game engines (Unreal, Unity, Source) out perform it. iClone is known for ease of use, convenience, and animation and not for 3D performance and rendering. And most certainly not known for 3D innovation. One can be a fan of iClone without being blind to its shortcomings.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

On the other hand, there is no point to slam iClone into the ground either. The reason I use iClone is not just convenience, but that I can actually produce something within a reasonable time. I have used/tried a slew: Poser, DAZ Studio, TrueSpace... Oh and MovieStorm, Source Filmmaker. Even 3DS Max v2.5 a long time ago, which I liked, but can't afford. Now, if any of those is more suited for anybody, I think it's time to move on. I believe it's time to concentrate again on what iClone is and what can be done with it and how it can be improved.

By Eric (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Hi guys,

Looks like a couple more clarifications are needed.

As I said before, we definitely don't want to charge the users twice for the same functionality, and the 3D head creator module is no exception.

You can purchase the 3D Head Creator module as an add-on for iClone when it is released next year if you choose to wait.

Those who purchased CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline will be able to get the 3D head creator module for free as well. You will not have to pay again for this.

CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline is more than just a 3D head creator module, some aspects of the facial animation is improved as well, we'll show more of this in the next work in progress video!

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

He answered himself anyway animagic compares iClone to 3D modelling applications then when quizzed says basically all of them because iClone is a different beast LOL LOL

By Bellatrix - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/10/2015)

NEW 3D HEAD CREATOR

Thank you Eric (and Peter and Reallusion) for being responsive.
Your presence always improve the vibe on your (nicely revamped) official forum

I'm pent up with questions, most have been asked
But I'm also a pragmatist...
Good to know nothing is ever written in stone...
agility is a positive quality in a fast changing world...
So take your time, sort it out, let us know whenever

Sometimes just showing up - even with no concrete answer - easily calm a thousand nerves :)

Now that we have a new member in the RL creative tool ecology...
and amidst ongoing customer confusion courtesy of product labeling & classification...
Here's my take on an updated roadmap, as a feeble attempt at seeking/bringing more clarity

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/1bb3d7a3-5dd1-4594-b116-f8c4.jpg

It could be merely one little user's self-serving fantasy
"How I think iClone ecology should grow"
It may incidentally sum up what the majority of RL customers - old/new 3D/2D novice/pro - want
It may even predict relative economy/revenue based on sphere size a year or two from now

Definitely an attempt to focus priority:
a tiny 2.5D standalone product should not bog down the far vaster 3D economy.
Ultimately...these are true regardless
- All road seems to lead 3DX, internal/dev perspective
- User's perspective: IClone is the final destination
- Objectively 3DX is a highway gate/wormhole, however dev-intensive. 3DX serves iClone
- IClone cannot be crippled/ slowed down/ stripped more than it is now
- IClone's CORE/ LEGACY features - animation edit/motions - needs to be ADDED to

Thank you for your patience...
And thank you for your consideration.

By diomkal - 10 Years Ago

thank you for accuracy!!!

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

Thank you Eric but there is still clarification required around Reallusion's plans for facial animation. Really not trying to be difficult but many of us (young or old) have a limited budget and therefore although we would love to buy all your procucts we simply cannot. So in order to make informed decisions we need Reallusion to be a little less vague on occasion.

My question relates to a number of allusions you have made to improved facial animation within CT8 which can be exported to Iclone.

Eric (RL) (11/11/2015)

With this in mind, we wish for CT8 to become the de facto tool for 3D head creation and precise facial animation

However for those who need additional content, getting CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline free from the $249 promotional deal is still an unbeatable value, as it has additional facial animation capabilities that will make it an imperative tool for any professional iClone user.

These statements are clearly aimed at getting Iclone users to invest in what will be an improved facial animation system within Crazy Talk 8; but what I think we need to know is whether the plan is to eventually incorporate the improved facial animation into either a future upgrade of Iclone or into the separate head creation module when it is released.

"Imperative" and "de facto" are strong words to use and imply that an Iclone user won't want to do with out it. But is this because

a) it is better than the facial animation currently in Iclone

b) it is better than the facial animation in Iclone will ever be - ie you plan not to improve iclone's internal facial animation.

Thank you.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/11/2015)

Hi guys,
Looks like a couple more clarifications are needed.
CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline is more than just a 3D head creator module, some aspects of the facial animation is improved as well, we'll show more of this in the next work in progress video!

Eric,

That was clear to me and I just assumed in the next video you would show this. But (as someone whose degree was in Communications :>) can I just ask you to clarify one thing that seems implied? In your original statement about this you said something to the effect that existing iClone users would get a really good deal on the CT Pipeline package after it has been released, but if folks needed content in addition paying for it now and getting the Pipeline free was still a good deal.

I took that to mean that the price for the CT Pipeline as currently outlined (which I think is $200) will be less for those of us who own iClone 6 (or perhaps some other products but let's stick with IC6 for now). Is THAT what you are saying?

As others have have mentioned, some of us "elderly" (let's not mince words -- I'm REALLY old. Just look at my icon) have to carefully consider how we spend our fixed income money (but I do not want to imply it's this or food -- I live well, but I live well because I'm careful with what limited resources I have. It's more like this or any medical care :>). JK.

In any case, I have more content than I could use in my remaining lifetime, so if the CT Pipeline package comes in at significantly less than $200 (please, please) for us loyal customers, I'd just rather wait until December (December 7th?) and buy it then. But if you are only going to discount it by 30% or so I might need to rethink it.

I'm not asking for an exact price, just a better way of judging for those of us on the fence.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/11/2015)

Nobody is slamming it into the ground. But neither does iClone warrant some of the over-exuberant gushing it's gotten in this thread either. Writing in all caps how it's pushing 3D to the next level, when in fact all it's doing it taking advantage of the 3D technology that has been around for years. People are gushing about the 3D head creator when in fact FaceGen and a few others have been doing this for close to a decade. Gushing about the CC when other apps have had morph sliders for years. As if RL is re-inventing 3D all the time, but they're not. They've brought it to a suite of applications that is more affordable than some of the other apps, but not by much anymore. By the time you've gotten all the suite of applications and content you'll need, you might very well have afforded one of the more mainstream apps. What it comes down to at that point is convenience in not having to model a character in another application. But what's it matter, you'll have to get a modeler at some point if you want props, sets, etc...

I like iClone, always have. But it is most definitely not the second coming when it comes to 3D as some here would have you believe.

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (11/11/2015)

In any case, I have more content than I could use in my remaining lifetime, so if the CT Pipeline package comes in at significantly less than $200 (please, please) for us loyal customers, I'd just rather wait until December (December 7th?) and buy it then. But if you are only going to discount it by 30% or so I might need to rethink it.I'm not asking for an exact price, just a better way of judging for those of us on the fence.

Generally registered members are offered new products (at least initially) at half price although they do seem to be distinguishing between "premium plus" members and other members these days in terms of what offers are made. Perhaps they might offer an even better deal than 50% for a limited amount of time - let's see...

By ledlight - 10 Years Ago

Interesting thread.

My thoughts: $250 stings. I like photos on heads but... ouch. I recently purchased the "free" character creator essential bundle for $99. Let's face it, CC was never free unless you wanted a hobbled version. $99 was reasonable though. Add to cart. Done.

But $250? Sure, I know I'm spending it on software or content. But that's just a clever "user generated bundle" trick. CT pipeline is not free by any stretch of the imagination. I don't need $250 worth of software or content. If the price or the spend requirement were $99, I'd jump in without complaining. But needing to spend $250 on content just to get at the photo-map feature? Come on guys. New users are getting it for free when they purchase iClone so why must existing users spend so much to get it?

Spot the odd one out...

CC essential bundle: $99
Indigo suite: $99
CT8: $250

It's too much. My suggestion would be to make it $99 until December for the existing and early adopters in this thread. We'll use it, make a bunch of cool stuff to help promote it, then you can raise the price. New customers will watch our YouTube photo heads and swarm in. Sound fair?

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

wizaerd (11/11/2015)

animagic (11/11/2015)

On the other hand, there is no point to slam iClone into the ground either. The reason I use iClone is not just convenience, but that I can actually produce something within a reasonable time. I have used/tried a slew: Poser, DAZ Studio, TrueSpace... Oh and MovieStorm, Source Filmmaker. Even 3DS Max v2.5 a long time ago, which I liked, but can't afford. Now, if any of those is moe suited for anybody, I think it's time to move on. I believe it's time to concentrate again on what iClone is and what can be done with it and how it can be improved.

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

Ok,Wizaerd,grab 3DSmax and model all your characters,props ect then grab Facegen to incorporate head modifications,then maybe pull out Endorphin and rip through some animation design and maybe Mimic for a little lip sync and then some lighting programs to create all of those cool special effects and particle environments and then pray really hard that it all works out in the end.I'll stick to Iclone and I think I'll have my project up just a little bit sooner

By rgreenidge - 10 Years Ago

Thank you Eric, for making that clear for me that I would have to wait for next year which for the 3D head maker for iC6. But unless I missed a post, would this 3D head maker be just for my CC characters and also versions of iC3-iC5 characters? If this 3D head module is for only my CC characters, I have no use for it. I have invested into too much clothing and have enough clothing as of now for non CC characters for my movies. With the improvements in scenery, props and characters from iC3-iC6, I started my movie from the beginning a few times already. If using CC characters is the only way I can use the 3D head module, then unless it's included in iC7 I won't be buying the module. I have no use for Crazy Talk at all. I understand why some of the members may be upset too. Since iC6 came out, there were rumblings that coming in the version (6.3), a head maker was going to be included, nothing was mentioned about CT, and then another product from the same company produces a compatible (?) 3D head maker before we got ours, and what was thought was going to free, is now $299, for something I don't have or want. I bought the CC stuff not because I needed it, but I thought the cross grade price was good and it was 100% for iClone. I think folks here are asking what I'm asking, what happened to iC 6.3 and wasn't that supposed to be released in the 4th quarter?

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

TonyTiger (11/11/2015)

You do realize that there are many people who are using iClone to animate a character and then exporting that to other 3D apps, and game engines, right? Many of them are even creating their characters elsewhere, importing into iClone just for the purpose of animating it, then immediately exporting that. Ever wonder why that is? Could it be perhaps because iClone is not as easy to use for large projects, and that its particles can in do way compete with a real 3D system, or even a game engine, and that it's renderer is subpar. I'm super happy you love iClone, although all the gushing makes it hard to take you seriously. I have never refuted that iClone is easy to use, and I've never said it wasn't convenient but it is not the 2nd the coming, and in terms of it's 3D. Is it a good product? Sure is, that's why I use it for simple things. But is it the king of 3D? Not even close.

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

Iclone at this point is the best amature 3d animation software that I've found.Yes,I wish their render engine for animation was up to par with Iray and I'm sure in time it will be.Ive used Daz,Poser,ect and for me the simplification that RL offers with Iclone combined with the quality level now possible equals a lot less frustration and a fun experience.I know it isn't Pixar but I don't make my living with 3d animation,like most of us on here to me its just a fun hobbie and now with the addition of CC I no longer have to go through the hassle of importing and exporting to and from Daz just to have a realistic character.No more draping of clothes onto characters for dynamic clothing and hair which usually ended up a twisted mess anyway,no more importing bvh motions and endless adjustments only to end up with my character looking like a mister twister nightmare.If you add up all the other goodies Iclone comes with-Water,lighting,particle and physics along with all the animation tools I find it hard to beat at the amature level.If I am 'gushing' over Iclone it's only because I can now have fun with my hobby without the frustration of having to constantly find work-arounds to achieve my desired results.As far as the cost goes,RL is one of the most practical companys out there and I have never felt like I was ripped off or manipulated into buying stuff I don't need or want.If anyone knows of another program out there that will allow me to achieve what Iclone does please let me know,I'll buy it today!!

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

TonyTiger (11/11/2015)

This is a completely reasonable post, and so much better than "OMG!!! RL IS THE BEST 3D EVER. THANK YOU REALLUSION!!!", which you've done twice since this whole CT8 thing started.

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

Sorry,I didn't realize people took this forum so seriously

By JIX - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/11/2015)

Looks like things are running into the right direction! Looking forward to see the next work in progress video ...

By jann - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (11/10/2015)

I have difficulties to understand this. Do you mean that CrazyTalk which is coming with "great special promotional discount" is some kind of light version? So, if i want all functions, i have to buy it now using " $249 promotional deal"?

And how much is this "great special promotional discount"?

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

Like it says:

iClone 6 Pro users will be able to acquire CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline with a great special promotional discount.

So it's the full Pipeline version that you need to work with iClone.

By jann - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/13/2015)

Like it says:

iClone 6 Pro users will be able to acquire CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline with a great special promotional discount.

So it's the full Pipeline version that you need to work with iClone.

And it says also: "However for those who need additional content, getting CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline free from the $249 promotional deal is still an unbeatable value, as it has additional facial animation capabilities that will make it an imperative tool for any professional iClone user."

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

Looking forward to seeing the next video about CT8. :D so we can learn more specifics.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

@jann: I still don't see the problem. In both case it concerns CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline with whatever features are in that version. One way is to get it for free by purchasing $249 in content. Another way is to wait for the special offer for iClone 6 users (or the upgrade price for CT7 users if you have that program).

By jann - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/14/2015)

Maybe it's just me :unsure: but i still read it as it has some extra functions, and that it's CrazyTalk 8 (and not Head Creator) EricRL is talking about. So, i guess he's refering on some extra content/functions you can buy for those $249?

Anyway, the new CrazyTalk seems like great fun :hehe: and as a iClone user, the pipeline version would be interesting for me. But it's really annoying that Reallusion don't want to tell all the prices :crazy:

Buy CT8Pipeline as new = $199

Buy content, and get CT8Pipeline "free" = $249+

Buy CrazyTalk Animator 2 Pipeline Essential Bundle, get CT8Pipeline "free" = list price $450 / member Price $259

Buy iClone 6 Studio Pipeline Suite, get CT8Pipeline "free" = List price $1126 / member price $599

Upgrade/memberprice = $unknown

"great special promotional discount" for iClone users = $unknown

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

jann (11/14/2015)

Buy CT8Pipeline as new = $199

Buy content, and get CT8Pipeline "free" = $249+

Buy CrazyTalk Animator 2 Pipeline Essential Bundle, get CT8Pipeline "free" = list price $450 / member Price $259

Buy iClone 6 Studio Pipeline Suite, get CT8Pipeline "free" = List price $1126 / member price $599

Upgrade/memberprice = $unknown

"great special promotional discount" for iClone users = $unknown

I'd like to know when each offer expires. Just to keep things tight & exciting.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/14/2015)

I don't see anything "Free."
If you have to pend $249 bucks on (whatever)... how is that "Free???"

Since you're not in the market, why do you care?

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

jann (11/14/2015)

jann, the $249 is spent on content or DA points, OR software (apparently only some software is eligible). It does not provide additional CT8-related functionality.

The Head Creator is part of CrazyTalk 8 Pro and Pipeline currently, but is viewed as a separate module just like Character Creator and will eventually be available as a separate module some time next year. CT 8 Pro and Pipeline are equivalent, except that Pipeline has the capability to export heads to iClone.

I know it's not always easy to deduce what RL means, but I have had years of practice by now...:P Regardless, even I am wrong at times...:blush: so hopefully Peter or Eric will chime in to put your mind at ease.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

The only difference between Pro and Pipeline is the export to iClone as far as I can see for features within the software itself. I would not be expecting anything else. Looking at the video it is a pretty neat feature to have for iClone even if it is a bit of a curly way of getting it there.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/14/2015)

I don't see anything "Free."
If you have to pend $249 bucks on (whatever)... how is that "Free???"

The $249 spend on content is one option offered and if you buy regular from the marketplace here which many do then quite a viable one. You get some great content to top up your library and you get the CT8 Pipeline software free. If you don't want that you can buy it from your members specials/upgrade page and a reduced price or introductory offer at release.

Buy content - $249 - You have $249 worth of content in your library either 2D or 3D which has nothing to do with the CT8 Pipeline unless buying additional content in preparation for your new CT8 software. Careful spending ie. "Specials" in the marketplace you can have much more than the $249 worth. RL have already stated you can buy points which you can use over time so all you need is the points.

As a reward

CT8 Pipeline - FREE

So unless they charge you $249 for $50 of content in return based on $199 CT8 current Pipe price it is not rocket science it is FREE

Whether any of us agree or not on the implementation of getting 3D Head into our workflow there are good options available to do so. People new to iClone might not have built up much of a library from the RL store so a deal like this where they were going to the store each pay or as required gives them an extra incentive to receive something they would have had to buy at some point as they progress. They are spending the same money over a few weeks/months anyway. It is one option of many and a statement like yours is totally misleading, but you know this when you are typing it in the box. Or at least I hope so............... I will give you the benefit of the doubt LOL always good for a laugh at least :-)

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

I don't come on here like I am up on my perch looking down on all RL users like you do. I support and encourage people to take up both animation and 3D art/modelling at every opportunity. Yes I recommend Reallusion products on a daily basis and have faith in the product but I do the same with many others as well. I am sorry I am only just starting out with CC but I did buy it the day of release coz they wouldn't give it to me any sooner than that.. 6 years using Max and Motionbuilder does not automatically give you the right to railroad every thread with your crap. I am aware of how long you have been using Max as you bring it up often enough and I have researched Max on your advice and nowhere in the literature does it say it excludes you from being a total tosser all your life. I also question if you are so fantastic how do you spare the time to come here and start up with the anti RL campaign at every opportunity, shouldn't you be busy utilizing your beloved software? After all as you point out I am only a novice and I am run off my feet someone as high and mighty as you should be hiring personal assistants to do this side of the operation. Ah its okay SwOOOOOOOOOOOp I realize this type of thread in particular would be like gold to a troll like you and I fully understand.

I also admit that I have a ton more to learn with animation and 3D modelling anyone that thinks they know everything there is to know about both is just full of themselves and living in a fantasy world. Thankfully I am not aware of anyone like that. ..........................Wait a minute!.........................................................

PS To all the good people who have just joined the Reallusion forum this is just like a family quarrel it helps break things up a little, like a distracting ad break. We both will be over it by the end of the day I'm sure. :-) But as they say there is always tomorrow.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/15/2015)

Lawsuit Pending Records (11/15/2015)

I realize this type of thread in particular would be like gold to a troll like you and I fully understand.

Thank you for the kind words.

I also admit that I have a ton more to learn with animation and 3D modelling anyone that thinks they know everything there is to know about both is just full of themselves and living in a fantasy world.

I'm an Intermediate user. I simply Read and Practice.
....Then share what I've learned.

PS To all the good people who have just joined the Reallusion forum this is just like a family quarrel it helps break things up a little, like a distracting ad break. We both will be over it by the end of the day I'm sure. :-) But as they say there is always tomorrow.

New iClone users...
Don't take his comment to me seriously. I don't... because I remember how tedious and frustrating it is (without training and awesome tools).

CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline is an awesome addition to iClone!:)

- Your welcome

- I share a lot too and by the time I learn something in detail they release the new version and I am off again. I also add other software to my kit so I appear to be always learning with little animation as a result.

- No argument there I never stated CT8 Pipeline was anything other than useful to me for my iClone after seeing the promo video even more so, In fact I cant wait for the release

By jann - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/14/2015)

Hi animagic. Thanks for helping to interprete Reallusions ambiguous message :)

I have also being around here for some years, and should be quite used to Reallusions unclear [or sometimes even misleading] communication. But that's also why i keep asking until i get an answer that's clear enough.

As said before, CrazyTalk 8 is most surely great fun, and also a useful tool for iClone. And buing content to get CrazyTalk for "free" is an interesting offer - but i don't really need any content, and have already some unused DA Points waiting in my account, so... :unsure:

There are still some unanswered questions:

1) How much is this "great special promotional discount"?

2) When will separate 3D Head Creator app come out, and what's the price? Or maybe it's free for iCloners as promised at some point?

3) Is there a CrazyTalk Animator 3 on the way (when?), and will it also include the same 3D Head Creator as in CrazyTalk8?

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/15/2015)

Lawsuit Pending Records (11/15/2015)

So unless they charge you $249 for $50 of content in return based on $199 CT8 current Pipe price it is not rocket science it is FREE

...I will give you the benefit of the doubt LOL always good for a laugh at least :-)

I've leaned how to use max and motionbuilder... going on 6 years now, I have more content and motions that I could ever use in one lifetime.
I have created characters for years....
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.... Since you are barely starting with CC and the likes.

Impressive but your bag of tricks sounds a bit limited. Is that all you can do? Are you aware that therez a GAZILLION other people who can do all that as well? You are showing an incredible lack of big picture perspective. Like an idiot who thinks everyone else is an idiot despite all evidence.

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

Guy, guys, guys, and gals. Beating your chest and claiming to be better than each other is kind of silly. Let's focus on constructive, positive contributions to the discussion.

The mature one is willing to let go of the argument regardless who got the last word. The best way to take the rug out from under someone who is being disparaging or disrespectful is to ignore him/her. If you see it, then you can trust others see it, too.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

[b]sw00000p (11/16/2015)
I've learned a little bit. "Are you offering to teach me?" I'm always willing to learn.

Let's talk technique.
Teach Me something new that you know.... that I DON'T know.

Especially if it has to do with CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline, iClone, 3dxchange, or Rigging, UV Unwrapping, etc., etc.

How do you add water into a glass thats already full? Your arrogance makes you untrainable. In the bigger picture your skills are important and useful - BUT still very limited, and, in certain cases, insignificant. You have nothng to show us that backs up your arrogance and that is plain pathetic. Not even a 1minute clip? Sad.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

CaseClosed is right I should have shut up but in my defense I am only a little monkey. I am sorry swOOOOOp :crazy:

By planetstardragon - 10 Years Ago

no in fighting please. you are brothers in the art and humanity....we are all special in our own individual way. let us all smile, wish each other well and offer each other our blessings. - No buts, unconditional love is ....unconditional ♥

now please allow everyone else to continue discussing what they were discussing in this thread, and feel free to use my "anything goes" thread to discuss anything else you wish to discuss in peace. ✌ ☮ ♡

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/17742bef-3738-4729-b5b8-2f29.jpg

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

Geez that was enough to bring a tear to a glass eye PSD.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

jann (11/14/2015)

There are no extra features that you get for spending $249+ on content purchases. You will simply get CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline FREE which contains the 3D Head Creator. The Pro version of CrazyTalk 8 also contains the 3D Head Creator but doesn't allow export to iClone 6.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (11/14/2015)

I'd like to know when each offer expires. Just to keep things tight & exciting.

The pre-order offer expires on the 6th December but may possibly be extended until CrazyTalk 8 releases if it is later than that date.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/14/2015)

I don't see anything "Free."
If you have to pend $249 bucks on (whatever)... how is that "Free???"

So if you went to grocery store and they were giving you a car free with your groceries you wouldn't consider the car free because you paid for the groceries. Strange logic. :D

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

jann (11/15/2015)

There are still some unanswered questions:

1) How much is this "great special promotional discount"?

Not finalised yet but if you look at existing upgrade prices you should get a rough idea.

2) When will separate 3D Head Creator app come out, and what's the price? Or maybe it's free for iCloners as promised at some point?

It is currently scheduled for 2016. No pricing as yet but if you receive it with CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline you won't need to pay again.

3) Is there a CrazyTalk Animator 3 on the way (when?), and will it also include the same 3D Head Creator as in CrazyTalk8?

Again 2016 is all we can say at present. It's also way too early to say which features will be included.

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/17/2015)

2) When will separate 3D Head Creator app come out, and what's the price? Or maybe it's free for iCloners as promised at some point?

It is currently scheduled for 2016. No pricing as yet but if you receive it with CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline you won't need to pay again.

Thanks. It's great to see that in black-and-white.
I was hoping/assuming that would be the case.

(It was asked about earlier - by someone else - when he was talking about potentially paying for things twice. I think that's the scenario he was envisioning.)

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

You might have missed it in the sheer volume of data justaviking I reckon Eric cleared it up a while ago saying RL had no intention of charging members twice for a product. I wondered myself on the do I need CT8 pipeline or wait for the module I guess going the pipeline I get it quicker.

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

The latest promotional email has this included which states you need to spend $299+ to get CT8 Pipeline free. Is this a mistake as I thought the figure was $249+???

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/33ba87d8-7b3f-444b-9641-4860.jpg

By ledlight - 10 Years Ago

There's a poker machine rigged up to pricing, they pull the handle every couple of days to decide prices.

$299 is trolling! (so was $249)... I'll wait for the 2016 head deal, hopefully good once-in-a-lifetime deal comes for existing users.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

The price on the website has never changed -- it started at $249 and (as of today, at least) is still $249. Perhaps that email was sent by someone in marketing who didn't have the right word (either that or the graphic was changed by someone).

I actually ended up buying enough content to quality and that was (almost) accidental -- a seller had some stuff that I really wanted and dramatically reduced his price on and by the time I was finished I had bought nearly $240 so I went ahead and just ordered something else to bump it up there. I truly was going to wait until after the release to take advantage of the reduced member price, so in this case (as Peter keeps saying) the Pipeline truly is going to be FREE to me (and to anyone else in that position). Oh, I guess if you want to be a stickler about it you could say it cost me almost $12 (the price of what I finally ended up getting) but that particular item, while not on sale, was something I wanted as well and would have gotten eventually (I was actually waiting for IT to go on sale). At the very most you could say I ended up spending a couple of dollars more but that's the whole point of having an offer like that (to encourage you to buy things you might be on the fence about).

That's the real way to look at it -- if you aren't into buying content (or don't need any more qualifying software) then just wait for the friggin' upgrade price, for God's sake, and stop bitching. Otherwise -- it's a really sweet FREE offer for those who were thinking about buying some things but just waiting for a good excuse.

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (11/19/2015)

That's the real way to look at it -- if you aren't into buying content (or don't need any more qualifying software) then just wait for the friggin' upgrade price, for God's sake, and stop bitching.

I have no intention of buying loads of content I don't want to buy some software I don't need 90% of, but Reallusion really need to get their marketing act together - giving a completely different price in the email is really poor.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Well, that's not the price I saw in MY email, and I've never seen that price anywhere else.

But if the offer doesn't interest you I'm not quite sure why it even upset you. It's kind of like the ads the car companies keep sending me -- I'm not the slightest bit interested in buying a car right now so I don't even give them a second glance. Why worry about what the price actually says if you're not the target audience?

(It's only a show. You should really just relax. Hmm, got MST3K on my mind for some reason :>).

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

You could just wait until the module is available if you have no desire to buy CT8. I could do with it ASAP so I accept I am getting CT8. I don't know how much the module will be on it's own but probably not much difference between this method anyway.

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

I am not upset in the slightest - however I can assure you I did get that mail with that price.

The reason I posted it is because I can think of many instances in the past when people have been left disappointed/out-of-pocket due to thinking that they had qualified for something they hadn't. Sometimes it was due to a failure to read the small print but often it was due to inconsistencies in the marketing and a lack of transparency regarding the fine (and sometimes not so fine) detail.

I am not bitchin' I am trying to eradicate confusion and aid the community.

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

redrum (11/19/2015)

'll wait for the 2016 head deal, hopefully good once-in-a-lifetime deal comes for existing users.

That's my plan, too, even if there is not a "once-in-a-lifetime deal."

To the best of my knowledge, and within my limited ability to foretell the future, I have no need for and no interest in CrazyTalk, so I really don't want to get it just for the Head Creator feature. I'm not buying enough content to get it "free."

Hopefully the Head Creator without CrazyTalk Pipeline will be at a much, much lower price. Wouldn't $30 be cool?

I don't have a *need* for mapping photos to faces, but it always looked fun. I just wasn't thrilled with the results. Maybe sometime next year I'll be using Character Creator to create the basic body/head shape and then using Head Creator to easily make great clones of friends and family members.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

What I'm surprised they haven't shown yet is the second part video supposedly showing how all of this (and by "all" I mean the stuff in CT, not just the pipeline) will be of benefit to iClone users.

There has been a ton of flack about not including the 3D head feature and many of the comments both Peter and Eric have made have alluded to the fact we don't have the entire story just yet, that we haven't seen how the pipeline actually works. They have said on more than one occasion there is more to this than *just* the 3D head creator, and why they haven't shown the remaining piece is something I don't understand.

The only reason I can think of is that perhaps it doesn't quite work right, yet (it's still at least three weeks away from release, so that perhaps is expected). Otherwise I would have assumed they would have wanted to get the complete word out to all of us so we can at least make more intelligent decisions about this offer (as I said, in my case I just qualified without thinking about it much, but there may be others who really could benefit from any added info).

At the very least I would hope we see Part 2 before the offer runs out.

By jann - 10 Years Ago

toonarama (11/19/2015)

The latest promotional email has this included which states you need to spend $299+ to get CT8 Pipeline free. Is this a mistake as I thought the figure was $249+???

I got that promotion mail too, and have to say that i felt quite offended.

"Only selected members will receive this email. "

I (a loyal longtime customer) have been selected to pay more than all new random customers.

Thanks for that RL, but no thanks :angry:

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

I got that too it is probably typo it was $249

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

My main concern with all of this approach is that Reallusion seem to be going along a "divide and prosper" rule so that if we wanted to keep up with the latest of what Iclone can offer we used to "have" to upgrade Iclone and 3dxchange. Now by dividing things up we will now also need either CT8 Pipeline or (eventually) the standalone head creator too (which will have their own upgrade paths) and possibly even upgrades to the character creator too. It starts to become quite expensive and in some cases the new functionality supplied in the upgrades - as opposed to the functionality which lets you keep/get back the functionality you had before - does not seem to justify the price. I think the upgrade to 3dx6 is very poor value for money.

By Jerome V - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (11/19/2015)

(...) just wait for the friggin' upgrade price, for God's sake, and stop bitching. Otherwise -- it's a really sweet FREE offer for those who were thinking about buying some things but just waiting for a good excuse.

Oh dear, when forum members start defending a company's marketing strategy, that's when you really should start worrying. :)

As for the car company analogy, are you saying that Reallusion behaves like any other second hand car salesman, and that it's best just to ignore those lousy deals and offers?

Well, for me your wake-up call comes too late, I'm afraid. I just bought the iClone 6 Kinect v2 plugin, a Kinect XBox One Sensor, and PC Kinect adapter, only to find out after installation that I can only use my custom imotions in iClone 6 Pipeline and NOT in CTA2 Pipeline. Even worse, I can't use 3DXchange from my iClone 5 Pipeline edition to work around this issue, so now I need to buy the very expensive(!) 3DXchange for iClone 6 Pipeline, just to be able to use both programs the way I used to do before iClone 6 was launched.

I have not been warned by Reallusion for any of these restrictions and incompatibilities when they sent me an email offer for the Mocap plugin. They didn't tell me anything, and just took my money.

To add insult to injury, Reallusion won't even fix the issue (although they admittted in this forum that it was a genuine bug!), and now tells customers to wait for CTA3. How about that, for rewarding loyal customers...? :(

By the way, Reallusion apparently decided just to ignore forum posts about the Kinect plugin CTA2 import bug. They must be really busy sending out those "really sweet free offers" you are talking about....

Please, stop telling people to relax, you are only making them more angry.

-Jerome

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Sorry, Jerome, but I can't feel too bad for someone who doesn't do the research (if you had you might have just skipped the RL Kinect plugin -- there are FAR better choices out there).

I don't use CTA so I don't know how it handles motion stuff, but I'm guessing there is *some* way for it to import industry standard mocap files. Again, if so, there are better alternatives than what RL offers.

And people here are all upset about something that isn't even out yet -- THAT'S why they should relax. We in no way have the entire story when it comes to this stuff vis a vis iClone. When we actually see a video about how it works at that time we may well have reason to be upset... or to be happy (or not to care one way or the other).

I'm no apologist for RL -- as I said, their Kinect plugin stinks, but as someone who should have done the research before I bought it I only blame myself. And I fully understand people who think they were misled by RL into thinking the 3D head stuff would be built-in to iClone. I even agree with most of them. But what I don't agree with is getting all upset because marketing materials show a price difference in an offer than nearly all the folks around here who ARE upset say they wouldn't use anyway. Do you not understand how THAT is pretty crazy? THAT part is like me getting upset about seeing a price on a car that I have no intention of buying anyway (for that matter, I'm REALLY steamed that the new Aston-Martin's price is about what my house costs. Now if it were only HALF of what my houses cost...)

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (11/19/2015)

But what I don't agree with is getting all upset because marketing materials show a price difference in an offer than nearly all the folks around here who ARE upset say they wouldn't use anyway. Do you not understand how THAT is pretty crazy? THAT part is like me getting upset about seeing a price on a car that I have no intention of buying anyway (for that matter, I'm REALLY steamed that the new Aston-Martin's price is about what my house costs. Now if it were only HALF of what my houses cost...)

Not sure what language you're talking but it could well be b******s - as I said I am not upset and I can assure you I am not crazy, but there have been people upset many times before and I'm sorry but Reallusion's marketing often appears to be deliberately vague or missing vital details

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Not talking about anyone in particular (it's one of those cases -- if you fit the description you'll know it). And, yeah, RL's marketing ain't the clearest or the best.

In hindsight it sure would have been good if RL had let us know the entire roadmap that was (eventually) trickled out, to the extent of the 3D plugin coming next year for us iClone users. But we STILL don't have the entire picture -- I'm telling you, there is a piece to the CT part for us iClone users that hasn't been fully explained (unless Peter was deliberately misleading, and I don't think that's the case). They are saying that until we see the next video we won't understand -- so show us already!

If RL was guilty of one big thing, it was not giving us the whole picture before offering us a pig in a poke, so to speak. And as I said, I would not have bought it except I'm getting it inadvertently. I still think that deal is fine, but until we know everything all we can do is speculate and I'm saying "RELAX, everyone". Let's wait and see.

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

At the end of the day we all have a right to voice our opinions on an open forum (within reason). You are entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine and there is no reason to accuse people of "bitchin" or making "crazy" comments. Personally I have been lucky enough never to fall foul of Reallusion's marketing but I can easily see how many people have.

By Jerome V - 10 Years Ago

I get your point, Kelleytoons, but to many of us, Reallusion was always more than just one of the many alternatives around, since their Pipeline products promised to be real time-savers, and time is money, as you know. Customers here aren't just angry, they are disappointed.

Now that many customers have bought those Pipeline editions, it's really frustrating to see that with each version update, the main product becomes less functional, and more and more additional purchases are needed to restore the original functionality of the previous version. (That's what Toonarama was saying too in one of his last posts.)

These additional purchases always come as a very unpleasant surprise, because Reallusion doesn't warn us beforehand that your Pipeline product needs more cash to function as expected. Yes, Reallusion does offer discounts and does send introduction offers to loyal customers via email, but they don't make up for the shocking truth that their products require more and more "maintainance" (in the form of additional plugins/modules) just to keep it running as intended.

It's like a really great app or mobile game that is ruined by becoming less functional every day, unless you make in-app purchases all the time, just to keep your app data or game progress safe. There is a moment however, where in-app purchases become 'ransom-ware'. That's at least how I feel about the whole Mocap-scam I have been the victim of, recently.

Has Reallusion become too big to care? If so, they should realize that for any successful company, business ethics is just as important as growth and profits.

As for Reallusion's loyal customers, they will soon find out that instead of buying a digital creative tool, they actually bought a slot machine in disguise, and that they have in fact sold their sole to the Canadian Devil (to paraphrase a memorable South Park scene).

- Jerome

P.S. I always do a lot of research before buying any product. But if some issue is aknowledged by the developer as a real bug in the program and the developer says they are looking for a fix, then you should feel sorry for those who bought this product expecting a future fix when that developer suddenly decides (after you've purchased in good faith) that you will have to wait for an entirely new product to (maybe) get that functionality back (or not). If that's not insulting and disdainful towards customers, then what is...?

By Jerome V - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (11/19/2015)

I'm telling you, there is a piece to the CT part for us iClone users that hasn't been fully explained (unless Peter was deliberately misleading, and I don't think that's the case)

Six months ago, Peter confirmed publicly that the custom imotion import issue (which means you can't import custom mocap data from iClone 6 Pipeline into CTA2 Pipeline, whether or not you have the iClone 6 Mocap plugin) was a genuine bug and that Reallusion would fix this in an update. Just recently, Peter suggested in this forum that the bug would not be fixed in CTA2 and that this would be dealt with in a new version of the program (meaning CTA3)!

Meanwhile, people like me bought the Mocap plugin as well as new Mocap hardware expecting a quick fix. Instead, their concerned forum posts are ignored, while Reallusion keeps selling their own imotions in their content stores.

Coincidence? I don't know, since Peter apparently doesn't care enough to explain himself, reassure his loyal customers, and prevent them from becoming suspicious about the matter.

I really want to believe that Reallusion is not deliberate misleading it's customers in communication and advertising, but they would need to be willing to compensate customers like me, who paid them lots of money for a flawed product (how about a free copy of 3DXchange 6 Pipeline to give me at least a workaround for this bug?).

I would appreciate Peter's feedback in this thread, but I'm starting to think that he has had contradictory instructions and that he doesn't want to be blamed for it. If so, I can understand, but I still need a fix and I need it fast!

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Actually, neither of you seem to understand my point, which I'll make once and not comment further.

All I was commenting on, originally, was that the "misleading price" that some folks seemed to be all upset about in this thread was nothing to be concerned about, since they (the folks that RAISED this issue) said they wouldn't be buying content/software anyway. So it was a case of "WTF are you complaining about if it's not anything you even care about?". Again, my analogy of worrying about the price of a car I'll never buy is completely accurate -- I don't care if the folks advertising the car are even liars or purposefully trying to be misleading -- it ain't something that should concern me.

The many other issues in this thread have nothing to do with that point. I have also commented on them from time to time (and even responded to you when you talked about the Kinect plugin) but that's not what I was referring to. People that are up in arms that RL sends out an email for an offer they don't even care about really ought to get a life.

Now, CTA has NO place in this discussion at all. You may or may not have legitimate complaints, but this is the iClone sub-forum and while there may (or may not) be some analogies to what you are experiencing with CTA it really has zero to do with what issues there are with this particular issue. (In particular I guess the analogy would be that Peter stated here that iClone would have this 3D mapping technology based on the best information he had at the time and it sounds like he did the same thing to the CTA folks about something that later was changed). I think Peter has adequately explained his position and there are still some of us who would rather have that sort of misleading information than none at all (IOW, if he had never even mentioned 3D face stuff we wouldn't have even had a clue it was coming from RL -- although we were led to believe it might not cost us anything).

In any case, I'm done here -- clearly most folks really do want to bitch and, as some have pointed out, that's their right. It's my equal right not to listen to them so I'll skip this thread from now on (hopefully when the new video that actually has information in it -- unlike the noise now in this thread -- comes out it will be part of a brand new thread).

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

Jerome V (11/19/2015)

Kelleytoons (11/19/2015)

I'm telling you, there is a piece to the CT part for us iClone users that hasn't been fully explained (unless Peter was deliberately misleading, and I don't think that's the case)

I agree. IC6 users who also use CTA2 have been waiting for this fix for quite some time now, only to find out it will not be fixed in the current version, but will instead require the purchase of CTA3 when it becomes available. Sure RL tries to spin it by telling everyone that IC5 motions work fine, but they're assuming everyone has or is still using IC5. Many new users, purchasing for the ability to create new motions for CTA2, will buy IC6 only to find out IC6 motions will not work. Just buy the IC5 motions from the content store is their official answer. Heck why would anyone need to create new motions, right? But no, we will be forced to upgrade to CTA3 in order to do so. And based on the history RL has of dropping key features, as well as adding unneeded or unwanted features, who knows what CTA3 will even look like.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

toonarama (11/19/2015)

The latest promotional email has this included which states you need to spend $299+ to get CT8 Pipeline free. Is this a mistake as I thought the figure was $249+???

Apologies for the confusion. I'm not sure how this error got in the email but I will look into it.

The correct amount is $249+ to get the FREE CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline edition.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Jerome V (11/19/2015)

The issue with iClone 6 motions not opening in CrazyTalk Animator 2 Pipeline is a compatibility issue and not a bug. When iClone 6 was released the file format for iMotions changed meaning that they were no longer compatible with CTA2. The hope at the time was that CTA2 could have been updated to accept the new file format. Sadly for technical reasons this hasn't been possible and so now full compatibility will be resumed in CTA3.

In the meantime motion packs can still be purchased from the Content Store or Marketplace and used in CTA2. The issue is only with iMotions that have been saved in iClone 6 or are in iClone 6 iMotion format to start with. Sadly this does mean for now that motions captured using the new Kinect For Xbox One plugin will not work in CTA2.

There is a workaround for the issue but it is rather a convoluted process which involves exporting the saved mocap file to FBX format, then re-importing into 3DXchange 5, and finally exporting again as an iClone 5 compatible iMotion file.

By Jerome V - 10 Years Ago

Peter, thanks a lot for your explanation, I appreciate it.

However, Reallusion should have mentioned the compatibility issue before the loyal customers got their Mocap-offer by email, because I got rid of my old Kinect v1 for PC device and bought the new one just to be able to import custom Mocap into CTA2. In other words, I switched from a usable and working setup to an unusable setup that has completely destroyed my workflow.

I wouldn't be complaining though, if the workaround you're mentioning would not require 3DXchange 6, as you told us in another thread. Are you saying that, for this workaround, I only need iClone 6 Pipeline, the iClone 6 Pipeline Mocap plugin, 3DXchange 5 (from iClone 5 Pipeline)? I thought you said we needed 3DXchange 6 Pipeline as well to be able to export our custom motions as FXB. So, no 3DXchange 6 is needed for this workaround, is that what you're saying?

If I really don't need 3DXchange 6 Pipeline for the workaround, I'm fine with the current situation and I won't be complaining anymore. If not, I'm totally screwed (big time!).

Thanks again for your feedback, Peter!

- Jerome

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/19/2015)

The hope at the time was that CTA2 could have been updated to accept the new file format. Sadly for technical reasons this hasn't been possible and so now full compatibility will be resumed in CTA3.

The technical reasons being of course that we have to find a way to force an upgrade of CTA3 on you, so we'll just not fix it in CTA2.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Jerome V (11/19/2015)

Hi Jerome,

Thank you for your feedback.

Unfortunately you will need 3DXchange 6 Pipeline to be able to export the iClone 6 motion to FBX format. 3DXchange 5 Pipeline can't export iClone 6 motions either.

Regarding the advertising for the new Mocap Device Plugin not mentioning it was not compatible with CTA2 I do understand your annoyance. While it is made clear in our promotional materials that the new plugin is for iClone 6 only, it would certainly have helped to make it clear that saved iClone 6 motions are no longer compatible with CTA2. I will pass on your feedback to our marketing team so we can try and improve on this in the future.

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/19/2015)

toonarama (11/19/2015)

The latest promotional email has this included which states you need to spend $299+ to get CT8 Pipeline free. Is this a mistake as I thought the figure was $249+???

Apologies for the confusion. I'm not sure how this error got in the email but I will look into it.

The correct amount is $249+ to get the FREE CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline edition.

Thank you - the purpose of my post was to clear up any confusion - which you have done - unfortunately it became slightly derailed

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

toonarama (11/19/2015)

I can confirm that the email does exist, I received it as well. Since the price on the website didn't change I wasn't too concerned. I would just suggest for RL to hire a proofreader for their marketing materials as there have been glitches like that in the past.

Anyway, what I really want to see is the second work-in-progress video as that will help with my decision.

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

"Unfortunately you will need 3DXchange 6 Pipeline to be able to export the iClone 6 motion to FBX format. 3DXchange 5 Pipeline can't export iClone 6 motions either."

Yes this is very disappointing news that iClone 6 created motions wont work with CTA2 but we will have to wait for CTA3 .
I cant do the workaround since I cant afford 3DXchange 6 Pipeline until it goes on sale again and its not part of the promotion for CT8.

By jarretttowe - 10 Years Ago

If you buy 3d xchange 6 do you get access to version 5? or would you have to go back and buy version 5?

By Jerome V - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/19/2015)[/b]

(...) full compatibility will be resumed in CTA3.

(...) Sadly this does mean for now that motions captured using the new Kinect For Xbox One plugin will not work in CTA2.

There is a workaround for the issue but it is rather a convoluted process which involves exporting the saved mocap file to FBX format, then re-importing into 3DXchange 5, and finally exporting again as an iClone 5 compatible iMotion file.

(...) Unfortunately you will need 3DXchange 6 Pipeline to be able to export the iClone 6 motion to FBX format. 3DXchange 5 Pipeline can't export iClone 6 motions either.

(...) Regarding the advertising for the new Mocap Device Plugin not mentioning it was not compatible with CTA2 I do understand your annoyance.

(...) it would certainly have helped to make it clear that saved iClone 6 motions are no longer compatible with CTA2.

Ok, let's look at this from a customer's perspective, shall we?

When I bought the new Mocap plugin, I had to sell my Kinect for PC v.1 to be able to buy the new Kinect v2 + PC Adapter, believing that the combination of the new hardware and the improved Mocap plugin would help me improve the quality of my CTA2 animations (I have the Pipeline editions of both iClone 5/6 and CTA2).

Guess what happened instead ...
that's right, I have completely lost the ability to use my custom Mocap data in CTA2. With the new plugin + iClone 6, I can no longer do what I used to do with iClone 5 Pipeline and CTA2.

For me, there is no going back, since Reallusion had convinced me that it was time to upgrade my hardware, so I sold my Kinect v1 sensor. I had no reason whatsoever to consider the possibility that this would completely ruin my workflow.
The fact that the new Mocap Device Plugin was advertised as an iClone 6 plugin has nothing to do with the incompatibility of the iMotion files, so please don't make it look like you warned us for the issue.

Both iClone 6 and CTA2 have now become unusable for me, since I cannot afford buying 3DXchange 6 at the current high price to do the workaround you described.

Imagine Apple would sell their new iPencil to all iPad-users, and would then let them find out (by themselves!) that the iPencil only works on the new iPad Pro (which, by the way, happens to be almost as expensive as 3DXchange 6). Wouldn't that be equally outrageous? Answer: No, not even close, because the iPad users still have their fingers, so at least they can still use their old iPads!

I wonder if anyone at Reallusion realizes how serious this is, and how damaging this will be for people like me. I mean, I had a perfectly fine setup & workflow with iClone 5 Pipeline and CTA2 Pipeline, then I upgraded my hardware and software for hundreds of dollars/euros, expecting it to work at least as good as the old setup I got. Now I don't even have a working system anymore, and I can't do my work as a result of this. This is truly a nightmare!

Yesterday, I had to call a client of mine to tell him that instead of the improved Mocap animation I promised him, I completely lost the ability to do any Mocap and that it would be best for him to ask another animator to do the job. Do you have any idea how embarassing that was? Probably not, cause you didn't have to call your customers to apologize for the Mocap incompatibility, and even if you did, you would still have your money, while we are losing money and credibility, and now have to deal with a damaged reputation as well. Thank you soooo much, Reallusion!!!

If you'd ask me, Reallusion now has the moral obligation to offer a cheap (if not free) workaround for people like me. Buying 3DXchange 6 Pipeline is just not an option for me, unless I'd get it for free somehow. (B.t.w. by purchasing the very expensive 3DXchange 6, you wouldn't even qualify for a free copy of CT8!)

Here's a suggestion: why don't you give us a free, stripped down version of 3DXchange6, just to enable us to work around the issue? And please don't say this is too complicated, technically, 'cause it really isn't. Alternatively, you could just add iClone 5 iMotion export to the Mocap Device Plugin or to iClone 6 in the next update in december. Any other (free) solution would be fine too, but please hurry, I'm losing money here!

Just for the sake of irony, here's a quote from the 3DXchange 6 manual (capitals and conjugation mistakes are all done by Reallusion):

"It is highly recommended that you DO NOT exporting an iClone asset, especially a character, into FBX format and then load the FBX file back to iClone via 3DXchange. "

Reallusion must have very good lawyers, 'cause apparently they have already added a disclaimer to the manual in case the workaround doesn't work, and disappointed customers try to get their $600 back. Anyway, for me it's just another reason not to buy 3DXchange 6 to fix the disastrous iMotion compatibility issue.

- Jerome

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

There is a concern here that in the Ecosystem view that RL is promoting, where the different applications talk to each other through the Pipeline versions, not enough thought is put into the problem of versions being out of sync, which then breaks compatibility.

Going forward, any Pipeline version should at least be able to save to a version that is compatible with previous releases of the applications that use the data. If that's not done, the pipelines could be broken on a continuous basis because it is unlikely that all products within the Ecosystem will be upgraded at the same time.

Either that, or make conversion programs available that implement the "convoluted" way that has been suggested. That burden should not be put on the customer. Although I'm not affected personally, I think there is a serious compatibility problem that cannot be simply brushed away.

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

Jerome V (11/20/2015)

I have completely lost the ability to use my custom Mocap data in CTA2. With the new plugin + iClone 6, I can no longer do what I used to do with iClone 5 Pipeline and CTA2.

For me, there is no going back, since Reallusion had convinced me that it was time to upgrade my hardware, so I sold my Kinect v1 sensor. I had no reason whatsoever to consider the possibility that this would completely ruin my workflow.
...
Both iClone 6 and CTA2 have now become unusable for me, since I cannot afford buying 3DXchange 6 at the current high price to do the workaround you described.

I understand your frustration. I've been there. I take great care now to save all previous version installation files. It is smart business in this computer tech age for you to not discard any hardware or software when upgrading. Always have a plan for going back. Always.

Yes it would be nice to trust that Reallusion would have everything figured out in advance, but they are not there yet as a company. As their customer base, we are the beta team informing them as to problems, and tapping our feet waiting for the fix. It is frustrating. Take precautions to protect your own business whenever you upgrade.

Maybe also take on a team approach and help them figure this stuff out so that we can get more of these crazy toys.

I've been away from my workstation for a month on other business, and I can not wait to get back to developing an animated story. Sorry for your predicament.

By CaseClosed - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/20/2015)

Going forward, any Pipeline version should at least be able to save to a version that is compatible with previous releases of the applications that use the data. If that's not done, the pipelines could be broken on a continuous basis because it is unlikely that all products within the Ecosystem will be upgraded at the same time.

Either that, or make conversion programs available that implement the "convoluted" way that has been suggested. That burden should not be put on the customer. Although I'm not affected personally, I think there is a serious compatibility problem that cannot be simply brushed away.

I concur.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

I don't think he had much choice CaseClosed he had to sell his Kinect V1.2 to get the V2. While it is all great in theory it only works if the budget allows. I agree with what you are saying if a person can afford it. I move the software .exe to a external drive and keep the hardware with intention of selling once all sorted. I have little trouble parting with stuff so there is corner of the room here that looks like museum.

By VirtualMedia - 10 Years Ago

Been out of the loop for awhile, been busy with a major house renovation. Had no idea another program update / war began....

I read enough of this thread to understand there's some upset users regarding this update and it's pricing. Can't say I like to spend more money, however I would love to have some functionality added to IC's facial animation capabilities. I have CT7 pro and found the distorted head animations to be a little silly. Used it several times and gave up on it. I did however like the more capable facial animation options it has compared to IC 6.

Eric (RL) Stated that "They wish for CT8 to becomeCT8 to become the de facto tool for 3D head creation and precise facial animation" If this is accurate or even on par with what RL did with CC and as easily interchangeable as CC and IC are, It sounds hugely promising. I was a skeptic about CC prior to release and was humbled by how capable and user-friendly the program is, and integration with IC couldn't be easier.

If they get the CT8 facial lipsync and animation / emotion down as solid as Eric stated and it sends it directly back and forth from IC, I would happily purchase the Pipeline version. Nothing kills believable animation quicker than obotic lipync and facial emotions. There's only so much you can do with eyelids, brows and cheeks up and down and mouth open and closed. I've used Maya and purchased the Face Machine by Anzovin for $199 and unlike swOOOOp I became so overwhelmed learning the program I forgot what I was using the program for. "To easily create and animate amusing characters"

If CT8 is a "de facto tool for 3D head creation and precise facial animation" Bring It, I've payed as much for overly complex and far less capable plugins.

Will the Head Creator, be part of the CT8 pipeline version released in Dec?
Is the ZBrush to IC / GoZ still do for release the 4th Quarter?

Happy Holidays!

By jann - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/20/2015)

I'm feeling the same way, and are also very concerned about these compatibility issues. Every time a new version comes out, the pipeline is broken until the next products get upgraded, which again brokens the pipeline... You have to wait and pay more. Reallusion's marketing and development strategy is generally rewarding new random customers, and punishing old loyal customers who have several Reallusion products. So sad :crying:

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

jarretttowe (11/20/2015)

If you buy 3d xchange 6 do you get access to version 5? or would you have to go back and buy version 5?

Unfortunately you will not get access to version 5. We no longer sell 3DXchange 5 but you can often pick up copies quite cheap from Amazon.

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

Check and see if this free iC5 special is still active.
http://www.rgbhq.com/blog/iclone-5-free

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Jerome V (11/20/2015)

For me, there is no going back, since Reallusion had convinced me that it was time to upgrade my hardware, so I sold my Kinect v1 sensor. I had no reason whatsoever to consider the possibility that this would completely ruin my workflow.

The fact that the new Mocap Device Plugin was advertised as an iClone 6 plugin has nothing to do with the incompatibility of the iMotion files, so please don't make it look like you warned us for the issue.

Hi Jerome,

To be clear the issue with iClone 6 motions not being compatible with CrazyTalk Animator 2 has been around since iClone 6 released last year so this is not a new issue.

I'm not really sure what you mean by we had convinced you to upgrade your hardware. In none of the advertising for the new Kinect For Xbox One + Mocap Device Plugin did we advertise compatibility with CTA2. I can understand that you made the assumption that it would work, but in hindsight it would have been better to check before selling your old hardware. I personally always like to see in black and white that something is compatible and will always assume it won't work until I get confirmation.

Sadly there is no good news that I can offer at this time as the iMotion issue won't be fixed until the next release of CrazyTalk Animator as previously mentioned. I will however make sure your feedback is reviewed by the whole team so hopefully we can improve on these compatibility issues in the future.

By larrygj - 10 Years Ago

This is all amazing stuff. I have taken the iClone/CrazyTalk ride since the very beginning, and the evolution has been fun to watch. For those who complain about the current costs, I invite them to check out the prices for Maya, 3DS Max or Cinema 4D, then let's see if they still complain.
I have had only one area of dissatisfaction all along, and that has been with the slim offerings of cartoon-type characters for iClone. With CT8 working with iClone 6, the opportunities for creating great new characters promise to be limitless. Can't wait!
So...when do we get to see the CT8 Work in Progress, Part 2?

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

larrygj (11/24/2015)

Well said it does seem to be compared to other formats while all very good products are miles more expensive and RL certainly keep climbing the ladder with introducing new capabilities. As for the cartoon characters that is really up to the content developers to offer I do see them make a few so perhaps if the sales are just not there they don't see the benefit in spending all the time creating them. Roll on CT8!!

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

VirtualMedia (11/21/2015)

Will the Head Creator be part of the CT8 pipeline version released in Dec?

That is the idea...:P

By VirtualMedia - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/25/2015)

VirtualMedia (11/21/2015)

Will the Head Creator be part of the CT8 pipeline version released in Dec?

That is the idea...:P

Thanks, I Jumped the gun on that one. I went back a read through the thread and got a better idea about what's up with CT8, does look promising!

Any thoughts on the ZBrush to IC / GoZ release?

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

VirtualMedia (11/26/2015)

Any thoughts on the ZBrush to IC / GoZ release?

I don't have ZBrush myself, so I haven't paid much attention as to any release plans for that. If it's included I may have to get ZBrush.

By similarly - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (11/19/2015)
...full compatibility will be resumed in CTA3.

CTA3? Any ETA? I'm curious.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

Need more time please! Can the CT8 / Pipeline offer period be extended beyond Dec 6?

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

The Black Friday deals to get free CT8 ends Monday ,so why don't we know the price for CT8 member upgrade yet?
If I wait to hear the upgrade price I may potentially miss out on a great deal but if I jump on a deal to get some things I own already and others I don't ,that's not using my hard earned money wisely.

Hopefully we'll know something before than.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

It would be helpful to see the second CT8 WIP before the 6th. Or did I miss it?

By larrygj - 10 Years Ago

I think it is really strange that Reallusion wants to wrap all this in mystery. Why can't they just communicate with their loyal users and tell us what's going on with CT8?

By 3DPiXL - 10 Years Ago

I'm still waiting to watch part 2 as well before I part with anymore money
.

By mrmdesign - 10 Years Ago

I have already parted with some pie 'n' mash so will be getting the pipeline version anyway but I would still love to see another video.

By Tomasz F - 10 Years Ago

Hi there,
I was so lucky to see part 2 of CT8 video (about 8 :00 am in UK), but then it went "private".
So, it is uploaded, someone is waiting to press the red button though ;-)

By mtakerkart - 10 Years Ago

@TomasZ

Did CT8 have facial mocap?
Thank you for your answer

By wires - 10 Years Ago

I watched the WIP video part 2 this morning before it was taken down/hidden.

There was no indication of facial Mocap. It just showed changes being made using a bunch of sliders/pre-sets in CT and then later additional changes being made in CC. The video contained no spoken commentary.

By mtakerkart - 10 Years Ago

Thank you very much Wires. :-)

By wires - 10 Years Ago

The video hasn't been hidden too well:

By urbanlamb - 10 Years Ago

edit (looks like you found it again) link removed

Its still there it seems. I was rooting around looking for info and found this in a playlist..

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

After seeing this I'm actually not at all surprised they "hid" it -- if this was the Big Reveal for us iClone people, it's a real letdown.

(Remember, Peter said that we were getting bent out of shape without even seeing how it impacted us in iClone, and to wait for part 2. Well... meh).

All this shows is the head can indeed be imported in Character Creator, something we knew from the beginning. And, yes, it does look very nice for those who use CT, but for us in iClone there isn't much else.

I'm not saying I'm still not excited and anxious to get pipeline, if only for the head mapping stuff. But the rest doesn't appear like anything we can't already do (although if they had gone into perhaps a TINY amount of detail more about importing the CT facial animation stuff I'd be interested -- what I'd really like to see is a facial iMotion file distinct and apart from the body one. THAT would open up a lot more possibilities, particularly insofar as facial mocap is concerned).

By SeanMac - 10 Years Ago

Hi Wires
Thanks for that.

SystemSpecs

HomebuildASRock Z68 Extreme4 MoBo, i7-2600K@3.4Ghz CPU , 16 GB DDR3 RAM, 5.5Tb SATA III HDD, Asus GeForce GTX 970 Strixedition running DX 12.0; Win 10 Pro (64-bit) + Samsung S24D300H 1920X1080 monitor+ twin 1920X1080 monitor. Kinect for Windows v2. Huion 610 Pro Graphics Tablet.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

Traditionally, CT scripts have been compatible with iClone (the connection was broken with CT7). If some of the automation features in CT, such as voice-based emotions, carried over, that would be cool. Anyway, I pre-ordered, so we'll see...

By 3DPiXL - 10 Years Ago

I was hoping the props from CT would also import into iClone, nothing shown there so I'm guessing not.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

As a CT user, I'll be able to create a bunch of bald people because I certainly didn't see many hair models... Plus if the available iClone hair models are any indication, what'll be available in CT will most likely be as minimal and as horrible. Still nothing about it's 2D capabilities... Will I be able to animate a character in a photograph or will I be forced to mask them out to create an avatar? I really didn't think the CT head in iClone looked all that great. Looked flat with little to no morph definition. All in all, very disappointing. As an iClone and CrazyTalk user.

By Eric (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Yup! The second work in progress video is now live!

You can see how CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline can perform powerful advanced script editing for facial animation that can be exported to iClone and beyond.

You will have access to improved lip-syncing with enhanced phoneme-pairing, shoulder movement, head movement, precise slider editing, Look At camera, and lots more.

But best of all, the Auto Motion has also been greatly improved with better smoothness, layered motion editing, and spring and damping effects.

Remember! This talking animations have been purely generated from audio without any key-framing

Also at the later half of the video, you can see how the 3D head you made from photographs is imported to Character Creator, where you can make even more edits and customization.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (12/4/2015)

Yup! The second work in progress video is now live!

You can see how CrazyTalk 8 can perform powerful advanced script editing for facial animation that can be exported to iClone and beyond.

Also at the later half of the video, you can see how the 3D head you made from a photograph is imported to Character Creator from CrazyTalk 8.

Wow, sorry if I don't get it but.. is that it? Looks somewhat underwhelming... Is that worth $250? Was hoping to be blown away somewhat... This doesnt xite me.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Eric (RL) (12/4/2015)

Yup! The second work in progress video is now live!

Remember! This talking animations that have been purely generated from audio without any key-framing

Not trying to be a contrarian here, Eric, but that video clearly shows key-framing -- by putting phonemes in the timeline that's EXACTLY what you are doing (putting a key in at a frame).

I mean, you can CALL it whatever you like, but it doesn't change the fact that at a certain frame you are having to place a market which sets a key. That ain't "PURELY GENERATED FROM AUDIO" by any means.

If I am wrong, please enlighten me (that's to me what is the underwhelming aspect of it -- if I want to keyframe a whole bunch of audio I might as well do it in iClone, right?)

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

"Key-framing" usually means a manual process by the animator. That's how I interpreted it. In this case it's done for you based on voice input, which I find an interesting concept. So it's visemes and expressions in one go. iClone currently only does visemes.

And of course, in an automated process the data has to be recorded somehow, either as a clip, where the keyframes are hidden or as individual keyframes. The latter would have some advantage for later additional editing. CrazyTalk scripts have always been richer in that regard, compared to iClone.

By jann - 10 Years Ago

Is there actually any hair or other accessories included in CrazyTalk 8??

Got today a promo mail telling about a new "Party Fun" pack = $79 (export $139), but as far i can see, much of the content is same as accessories shown in CT8 promo material.

Does it mean, that you have to buy both CrazyTalk8 and Party Fun pack to get the results as shown in CT8 promo material? So the price for Pipeline is actually $278, and not "just" $199?

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/ee6ac246-b9c4-4802-95d7-591e.jpg

By SeanMac - 10 Years Ago

Hi jann

well spotted, sir!

SystemSpecs

HomebuildASRock Z68 Extreme4 MoBo, i7-2600K@3.4Ghz CPU , 16 GB DDR3 RAM, 5.5Tb SATA III HDD, Asus GeForce GTX 970 Strixedition running DX 12.0; Win 10 Pro (64-bit) + Samsung S24D300H 1920X1080 monitor+ spare 1680X1050 monitor. Kinect for Windows v2. Huion 610 Pro Graphicstablet.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

animagic (12/4/2015)

I'll have to watch it again but I'm pretty sure in the process the Visemes were manually "processed" -- either new ones laid down or existing ones moved around. That's key-framing in any book.

But perhaps I saw something different. I'll take a look and report back.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Yup, as I remembered, starting at about 1:05, they say "Refine shapes" and the "refining" is definitely key framing. No "auto" part of the process there.

So it's VERY misleading for Eric to say this was all "auto-generated" -- the base perhaps was, but then was fairly heavily edited to get to look good. That's a bit like saying that our mocap system has produced files that need no key-framing, despite having to refine them with a lot of manual processing.

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

Okay I need Help before I buy anything to get CT8.
1 )These new heads created in CT8 will only work with Character Creator characters not regular G5 or G6 characters, correct?

2 )Will there be a way to use only the heads from CC and CT8 on the G6 characters ,because I wont waste money on G6 characters or any other content that wont work with Character Creator and CT8 heads?

3) I cant seem save CC character heads(Christian or Natalie) ,so does this mean the heads I create in CC and CT8 cant be swapped among themselves and other CC bodies?

4) So if what I'm thinking is correct,in addition to the New Character Creator Pack-Party Fun for $79,is there anything else that I can buy that will work with CC and CT8 that will take me to $250?

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

animagic (12/4/2015)

I think its a novelty gimmick (like the kinect plugin which got us xcited at first but turned out to be a dodo).

The algorithm would have to be very sophisticated to correctly interpret the intended mood based on the audio clip only and map the correct expression. It would make much more sense if they released a scripting language linked to the timeline.

Unless this is meant to create a market for viseme & expression content packs... ?

Even the demo clip looks boring, unconvincing and very barebones. I dont know if its uncanny valley or was i expecting too much..?

By larryjbiz - 10 Years Ago

I'm curious also about compatibility. What if any generations will the heads be compatible with?...other than G6 CC.

By larryjbiz - 10 Years Ago

I'm curious also about compatibility. What if any generations will the heads be compatible with?...other than G6 CC.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

brothertcoleman (12/4/2015)

A "G6" character IS a character created in CC -- that's what CC creates (and edits). Right now we can't save the G6 character heads separately -- that's what we need this Pipeline for. You don't NEED the New Character Creator Pack for this -- my own advice is that if you don't already have it is to get the CC Essential and the G6 Empowerment Pack -- they both contain very useful items for the new G6 characters.

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

Thanks for your advice and yes I have the CC Essential and the G6 Empowerment Pack.

A "G6" character IS a character created in CC -- that's what CC creates (and edits).
The only character I can edit from iClone 6 to CC is the CC characters (Christian or Natalie) not any G6 characters.

By redrubyslippers - 10 Years Ago

thats because you need the export licence

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Right, but the characters created by CC *are* G6 -- they just are kind of "set" into iClone and have that connection removed (there is a way to do this but I think it involves exporting via XChange -- it's not actually an advantage to have a character CC converted).

It's actually a disadvantage for such a character to become CC edited enabled -- for example, you can no longer edit the overall proportions of such a character -- so be glad you at least have a couple of G6 characters that AREN'T able to be edited in CC.

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

So just to be clear,all the G6 characters that I have cant be used in CC since I don't have an export license.
CC is an in house program ,I thought the export license applied to only characters leaving Reallusion programs to other outside programs.
So I guess I just have to just use the two CC characters(Christian & Natalie) and edit the bodies to work with the custom heads I plan on creating in CT8
but at least we should be able to make the CC characters into full G6 characters without an export license.

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

The Crazytalk 8 heads can be imported into CC to be used with any existing G6 character. You can further modify both your G6 character, and the imported head in Crazytalk 8 to create additional characters.

All the characters based on Heidi and Mason are "non-standard" characters. Heidi and Mason were created as an interim solution, but are not, nor ever have been, considered "standard". Many 3rd party vendors were happy to tout them as "G6" because that's better marketing than "Non-Standard". They can only be used "as is", which is actually pretty useful.

There is zero backwards compatibility of the bodies and clothing, although you will find that accessories such as hair can be used with older generation characters.

By patrick.gerard - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (12/4/2015)

animagic (12/4/2015)

I was disappointed by the second video. That said, here's what I think:

The sliders and points weren't nearly as well positioned for the facial capture as the first video.

Not everyone at Reallusion is equally skilled at using their tools.

The second video is probably more reflective of what an average user will produce. The first video is more reflective of what a "super-user" will produce.

There is a huge disparity in the quality of output between users, even without keyframing. Just sliders and position points make a huge difference.

I'd say forum users here are about 50% better than most of what I see on Youtube. The best users who demonstrate their work are twice as good as the average forum user at basic controls. Not even talking keyframes. I'm talking pivot placements and audio recordings. I suspect (I know, actually) that there are high end professional users who use Crazytalk and don't admit to it. I've known several people who worked for top video game studios who used earlier versions of Crazytalk because their games lacked convincing in-game lipsync. You wouldn't know that they used Crazytalk at all because they used high quality asset inputs and knew how to handle their input artwork.

Reallusion's employee users are all over the map in terms of their eye for artistic detail. What's perhaps more confusing (but probably shouldn't be) is that some people who know how to handle the art and less proficient at deeper features of the software... and some people who know all the tricks and hotkeys in the software seem to play a poor grasp of how faces work and what good composition is. That is where you get into the great benefit and liability of Crazytalk and Reallusion products.

These software products allow one person to do a small army's worth of work. However, they don't ultimately address the fact that one person tends to have a good eye for some things and not others. The CT7/8 automation and some of the smart features help with that but can't fully address that because the person who clicks publish decides what looks good and their taste may be bad. And the deeper features, while also good, are something really solid users may not have a handle on.

I will say, as a generalization, that the best users:

1) Use a mix of Reallusion and non-Reallusion tools for content generation.

2) Combine footage from different sources.

3) Budget plenty of time for projects. Indigo projects look better but may take weeks to render for a home user. (And since Indigo doesn't recognize multiple GPUs, it's a pretty hard gate to bypass aside from getting a Titan graphics card... and you're still looking at days there.)

Anything that doesn't do these two things is going to be intrinsically weaker.

As such, if I could prioritize features for CT 8's first update or CT 9, it would be:

1) Camera rotation around the 3D actor. Not full scenes necessarily or motion while a character is talking. An iClone export can do that. Just static 360 degree rotation so we can get profile views.

2) A mask applied to 3D characters that's adjustable, allowing us to get anything from part of the face to a mask to a full head that can be superimposed elsewhere.

These are useful to people who composite stuff and from there I think compositing could be an important direction to take iClone because of the computationally expensive video renders. For example: You render two videos: Everything behind a head. Everything in front of a head. You output an Indigo rendered head texture into Crazytalk and then can do a quick animation with the "behind the head" and "in front of the head" pre-rendered scenes layered around the live-rendered head. The result looks like it was rendered wholly in Indigo (or whatever plugin they'd opt for here) but has the advantage that you can do multiple Crazytalk-speed dialogues.

I also think something of an iClone light would be good that focuses and specializes on stationary cameras, TV style scene direction. I think as they integrate CT and iClone, what actually emerges is the need for a third package that's halfway inbetween the two for rapid generation of uncomplicated scenes like waist-up and seated conversations with profile views and some layer masking tools available.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

Indeed Patrick. I gave CT8 benefit of doubt but now... I also think RL should target different market segments with their products - like they used to in CT7 days.. rather than using what still looks like bait & switch (borderline ethics) tactics to "force create" cross selling opportunities.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication". From a user perspective, the RL roadmap looks convoluted, complicated and a recipe for chaotic workflow. Why should there be "forced integration" between 2D and 3D?

I think they should involve their loyal, long term, end user community when defining roadmaps.

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

Hitting different demographics is exactly what RL is doing. If you can develop a set of modules that can be mixed and matched into various products, It is not just making everything more compatible for the end user. It is making development a shared, common endeavor that covers all products at once, as well. You may notice that some of Crazytalk 8 is very iClone-like. That's no coincidence.

I would like to see the auto-animation module in iClone. It looks to respond to both volume (Hamburger!) and beats. I am curious if it is beat matching, or just animations assigned to different frequencies.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

rampa (12/5/2015)

I can see the apparent economic advantage of reusing code across multiple products. Its brilliant theoretically. Who wouldnt want an easy button that fixes resource cnstraints?

In practice however, its a monster that ultimately alienates end users as well as increasing maintenance overheads due to higher complexity of meeting multiple conflicting product requirements (2D/3D) with shared modules.

A key challenge I can foresee with current roadmap will be the death of user driven product evolution. At some point, some very good requirement will be so difficult to implement (e.g. iClone requirement A breaks CT requirement B so it becomes a choice of which users to dissapoint).

Another challenge is the risk of RL marketing dept going "rogue" and driving development such that no product is complete and usable entirely without another product. We can already see hints of that.

What RL is doing has been tried in various industries with the common trend being loss of focus, loss of unique competitive advantages, reduced responsiveness to users and ultimately failure over the long term.

Please listen to the market RL.

By VirtualMedia - 10 Years Ago

Wish they would have showed the mouth tab options on the face key editor, that's one of the biggest selling points for my use. Open, closed, show teeth and pucker are very limiting when creating realistic expressive characters. Will there be a 3rd video or could someone elaborate more on mouth and expression tweaking? And will it offer something that can't be done in IC 6?

Also can the auto animation generated from music be exported to IC characters?

Happy Holidays!

By pumeco - 10 Years Ago

justaviking (11/6/2015)

animagic (11/6/2015)

I wish I could find the "official" post that stated that face-mapping would return to iClone 6. [snip] So I feel somewhat unhappy at the moment about this. Sorry...:crying:

Hey Dennis, I hope you didn't take it to heart when we found nothing, cause I too went to extraordinary lengths to find the post or video that I believe suggested PBR sometime in iClone6. We could indeed be wrong, but even if we are I wouldn't feel bad about anything, and I wouldn't feel bad about what you said to Peter, simply because it's RL's fault. So I feel exactly the same way I'm sorry to say. I only just read through this thread, and it was out of sheer curiosity as to why such a basic thing as CrazyTalk would generate 28 pages of discussion. It's obvious what Reallusion are doing here, and it's wrong - so no need for you to apologize even for a misunderstanding.

@Reallusion
I think it's clear from this epic thread that the tactics you're using to generate your revenue, is starting to cause both yourselves and your customers a lot of problems, and here's a few examples:

- iClone5 brought new avatars, only to discover a most notable aspect of the female anatomy was removed, making an 'extra' purchase necessary to get boobies (you deserve a wrist-slap for that one alone).
- iClone6 dropped the whole notion of "Keeping it Realtime" when you decided to go "Snailtime" with Indigo, and even expected people to be happy with being charged 'extra' for that.
- iClone6 promised PBR shaders, or at least I'm certain it did, but like Dennis I can't find it. Unlike Dennis I won't be apologising, because if I'm wrong, the problem is your marketing (again).
- iClone6 brought Character Creator (which looks like a fine piece of work indeed), only to discover that Reallusion don't consider the head to be part of a character and that it'll be 'extra' to do the new head stuff.
- iClone6 brought the Genesis morphing, only to discover that all the mapping required to do it was 'extra' unless you wanted the pain of going through setting it up yourself.

There are others as well, but that should be enough to give you an idea of how Reallusion is starting to look to a lot of it's customers if this thread and many others is anything to go by. Fact is, planning to charge extra for the head thing is really pushing it (too far for me personally I think). Character Creator is (and rightly so) part of iClone, and any normal person would expect the technology you're creating for the head, to be part of Character Creator, not yet another 'extra' to charge for. The head is part of a character, and should be part of it, so please, I think you need to take a deep breath and realise that this stuff is going to come off as insulting your customer's intelligence.

Reallusion are starting to feel underhanded in the way they do business, to the point where people are clearly worried whether they're gonna get burned or not. I got burned when I purchased iClone5, I don't expect parts of the upgrade I paid for (the characters) to be minus their breasts. The tactic didn't work on me, I never bothered to pay 'extra' for a nude G5 just to get the breast part of the geometry that should have been there in the first place. So you sold your iClone, but you also created distrust when you did that. You haven't succeeded in selling me any other product since then (including iClone6). That's what's happening here, and it will get worse the more you do it, so seriously, I suggest you stop while you're ahead. The amount of Poser users that have moved over to Blender is clearly visible from posts across the forums, and if you're not careful, the same is going to happen here. People will get just as pissed-off with Reallusion as they did with Smith-Micro, and call it a day.

The message is simple; you have a really good product, so please don't spoil that by developing a bad reputation (and the comments here suggest that you're doing that en-masse). Fact is, if this whole head thing and the complete Character Creator was part of iClone by default (just as it should be), then that alone is enough to attract a lot of people away from Poser and DS. The way you're doing it though, is splitting it up to create the revenue instead of banging it all together to create the wow factor, and attract customers away from DS and Poser that way. DS and Poser users are content hungry, so it's in your best interest to take those customers, cause once you do, you can make your extra revenue from content sales instead of eating into iClone by modularising it all the time. Steal DS and Poser custom instead, cause you have the better product anyway. If you do that, you'll have a larger userbase to sell iClone content to. Bundle all this modular nonsense together into one perfect iClone and make it as cheap as possible, then sell your content to them when those new customers arrive in bulk! The way it is now is far from ideal. The price of iClone when all this stuff is added together, is pretty epic. Even 3DXchange shouldn't be extra, it should be a menu option in iClone to import and export. If my message comes across in a discontented tone, then good, it was meant to because I don't like being charged extra to get boobies (which was really too much when I noticed what you'd done there). I feel like I have to do epic amounts of research in order to avoid getting burned, and it really shouldn't be like that. I never have that issue with any other software product I have an interest in, so that alone sets alarm-bells ringing. If you're not careful, I think you're going to become the byword for "Be careful" - if you haven't already.

As others have suggested, I'd say a free copy of iClone6 Pipeline would do nicely to heal the wounds, Peter (and I might even forgive you for the boob thing as well if you do that) :w00t:
'Elementary, my dear Watson, I have concluded that the case of the missing boobies was indeed a boobie on the part of Reallusion, and that they should put these wrongs to rights!'

I love your product, Reallusion, very much so, but you need to change your strategy, that much should be obvious by now.
What are you going to charge "extra" for next, I wonder, a 'Foot Module' to do feet? :Wow:

Sorry, but untill you show some love, Reallusion is gonna remain as the BBBS (Big Bad Boob Snatcha).

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

In response to Pumeco's post...

What makes this even more strange, is I remember that when iClone 5.5 came out, it was such a huge feature-packed release that many of us were amazed that it was a free update rather than being a major release we had to pay for. (The exact major feature escapes me at the moment.)

In spite of frustrations, they have also treated us very well at times. It's like Reallusion bumps their head and their personality changes.

Bottom line, more clarity in their communications, and timely responses to specific questions could go a long way. I think they could improve in that area without revealing too many secrets to competitors.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

The price of iClone when all this stuff is added together, is pretty epic. Even 3DXchange shouldn't be extra, it should be a menu option in iClone to import and export.

Very true. They succeeded selling an import/export menu as a "product"... and one can easily find a way of justifying that move as a transparent way of making iClone affordable. But this issue of CT8 heads is just condescending and disrespectful to iClone users IMO.

The head features should have been part of a "paid for" CC if putting it in iClone was not economical. We dont mind paying extra. What we dislike is having our intelligence insulted thru what looks like bait & switch.

By SeanMac - 10 Years Ago

@justaviking
Hi
Perhaps this is the post you were thinking about? It is by you some time ago:
"My comments are a result of my buyingSubstance Painter, playing with it, and trying to properly interpret thewords in the iClone announcements.
Also payattention to what they do not say.
And lookat the "announcement" teaser videos.
Forexample, at the end of a webinar, someone asked if iClone 6 would supportPBR. The answer was, paraphrasing, "Yes, it will have support forsubstances."
Substancesand PBR may often go together, but they are not the same thing."

Regards

Sean McHugh
SystemSpecs
HomebuildASRock Z68 Extreme4 MoBo, i7-2600K@3.4Ghz CPU , 16 GB DDR3 RAM, 5.5Tb SATA III HDD, Asus GeForce GTX 970 Strixedition running DX 12.0; Win 10 Pro (64-bit) + Samsung S24D300H 1920X1080 monitor+ spare 1680X1050 monitor. Kinect for Windows v2. Huion 610 Pro Graphicstablet.

By pumeco - 10 Years Ago

I just added a lot of stuff to my post since I posted it, just thought I'd better point that out.
But yup, I feel the same.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

rampa (12/5/2015)

The price of iClone when all this stuff is added together, is pretty epic. Even 3DXchange shouldn't be extra, it should be a menu option in iClone to import and export.

Imagine how CT users feel, our favorite application usurped and made into an add on for iClone. CT was good at what it did, and was really the only application of its kind. As a CT and iCloner user, I don't need CT to make 3D heads, it should be a function of their 3D app, iClone whereas the 2D functionality of CT should have been enhanced and improved. Now it's an expensive add on for iClone.

It's also ironic there's already a content pack for it. I wonder what content CT8 will come with. I'm guessing nothing or close to nothing since the early release of the content pack when CT8 isn't even available yet. That also suck if someone does want to do a 3D head in CT, and not export for iClone, they'll be stuck making bald characters. Oh wait, I think in the teaser WIP #1 they showed a Mohawk. Such a useful hair model... Uh huh...

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Yeah, that's the part I really don't get (of course, while I owned it I have never used CT).

I thought the whole entire point of CT was to take a photograph or drawing or painting, something OBVIOUSLY 2D, and "bring it to life". It seemed that was both its charm and its strength. This is completely repositioning it into, essentially, a 3D program.

I know the company line is "we took CT as far as we could do and this was the way to enhance it" but that's a bit like saying Word (which has been about as complete as can be since around '97) ought to be turned into a Photo processing software like Photoshop because, well, it's a way of enhancing it. And, of course, getting people to buy upgrades.

Perhaps it's a good thing RL doesn't market a spreadsheet (can you imagine what THAT would look like turned into a 3D program?)

By mtakerkart - 10 Years Ago

If I were a new customer , it cost 149$ to have Iclone pro with CC but if I want the removed Facial photo mapping , it cost 229$ more!!!
This marketing is wrong.

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

It would be really neat to see some 3D animal heads for the photo-mapping. It seems that making animals talk has always been a big part of CT use.

A dog, cat, fish, hamster, and bird that had some basic morphs for different types would have pretty wide appeal, I would think.

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

I thought the whole entire point of CT was to take a photograph or drawing or painting, something OBVIOUSLY 2D, and "bring it to life". It seemed that was both its charm and its strength. This is completely repositioning it into, essentially, a 3D program.

For those who want to stick with the traditional Crazy Talk way ,the Standard version of CT8 for $49 is photo to 2D without the 3D, based on the info from the Edition comparison chart.

By larrygj - 10 Years Ago

I think there are a lot of assumptions expressed here so far about what CT8 will be able to deliver, and I suggest that some of those criticisms reflect unreasonable expectations. I go back to my original point in this thread: compare RL products to Maya, Cinema 4D, 3DS Max and others, and for what you get the RL product mix is such a bargain. Can it do everything? Of course not. But I find I can fix a lot of what is missing in iClone and CT by bringing output into an editor, Camtasia, and generating final output there.
I am particularly excited about the prospect of creating new cartoon characters from simple drawings of front and side views of a head, and matching skin textures to CC characters. That you can go from 2D to 3D with CT8 and iClone6 is truly magic go me, and as far as I know, unique to RL. So my hat's off to them, and in recent years the product improvements have been stunning. Compared to the way Poser has been limping along, RL is an Olympic champ.

Larry

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

brothertcoleman (12/5/2015)

Or don't buy it at all if you already have CT7 since there's probably no difference in the 2D functionality.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

oops, sorry for the double post...

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

larrygj (12/5/2015)

A lot of these assumptions are based on longtime history with RL, their products, and poor policies. The fact that a long time feature, available since the very first version, has been removed and added to a copletely different product line is wrong. Especially since it's just a way to charge more money. To usurp that secondary product line and completely ignore its roots, and its primary users is also wrong. Newcomers may not see it as a big deal, but as someone who has been a loyal customer for years, it's a betrayal.

By larrygj - 10 Years Ago

I respectfully disagree. Though I am called a Newbie in this forum, I have purchased RL products over the years going back to the very beginning. I for one thought the initial application of photos to figures in the earlier iClone products was pretty kludgy, especially if you ever needed to show the character's profile, that side view always looked smeared and crudely stitched-over to me. By comparison, the huge number of ways in which one can tweak the 2d input into 3d in CT8 (at least as shown in the WIP videos) promise the opportunity to create more realistic-looking heads. So if it winds up costing more to improve dramatically that feature, I am glad to pay the price. I don't begrudge them making money, especially if that means they stay in business and continue to improve their offerings.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

larrygj (12/5/2015)

I'm sorry, I cannot agree. The 3D head mapping should be in CC where there are already all the necessary morph sliders and enhanced textures (with Substance) and the 2D application CT should have been left alone. There in no real need to have 2 different 3D apps.

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

pumeco (12/5/2015)

- iClone5 brought new avatars, only to discover a most notable aspect of the female anatomy was removed, making an 'extra' purchase necessary to get boobies (you deserve a wrist-slap for that one alone).

I've never paid for functioning boobies in iClone 5, so I wonder what that's about...:unsure: There was a problem I believe at some point with the definition file that controls the movement, but that was resolved.

By pumeco - 10 Years Ago

@Job
There are boobs, yes, but picture this ... you get lucky and you start to undress her. You undo her blowse (slowly of course, so that you don't get a slap), then you go in for the old one-handed bra-removal trick. You smile as you see the bra hit the floor (yesssssssss!). But then, as you slowly look up to admire what you just unwrapped, you notice they're invisible, you can see right through her, like she's the Invisible Man's hot sister or something. Basically, the only reason for this is because a BBBS stole her breasts!

In iClone4, on the G4 figures, if we wanted to do, say, a tight-fitting bodysuit on a female, we used to make the top and bottom clothing meshes invisible and we'd be left with a nude female so that we could paint a bodysuit onto her. Not so with G5 figures though. With the G5 figures, make her top invisible and you're left with a non-existent upper-torso! At first I though to myself, ah, well that makes sense, I suppose it makes the mesh lighter on polygons - good idea. So I went to the library to look for the full-nude version and discovered I had to buy one 'extra' !

I kid you not, it was the Big Bad Boob Snatcha who did it :blink::P

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

I remember now, RL did not supply the nude G5 bases. It cost my $10 or so to get them from Sen. Must have been that RL didn't know about our dirty minds...:P

Edited for typo...:blush:

By patrick.gerard - 10 Years Ago

I will say this as a lapsed user: The presale at least offered relatively affordable ways for iClone and CT users to prepare for the convergence.

HOWEVER, I qualified for both promos (Pro and Pipeline, through separate purchases as I'm gearing up for a project) and I'm only seeing the Pro download. I will be disappointed if I don't get the Pipeline download and I'm not touching the Pro until that gets sorted out. I made the choice to jump from being a CT user to being an iClone user because I thought I could get Pipeline and if they tell me that qualifying for Pro overrides my qualification for Pipeline in the promo, that puts a real dampener on my enthusiasm for iClone. I know it's the weekend but right now I am interested in the Party Fun Pack and some other things. My interest will hinge on whether they get me a Pipeline version of CT8 since I am hoping to upgrade my projects to iClone but I'll need the Pipeline functionality to fully make that leap. I guess what concerns me is that the promo has carefully worded legalese that would allow them to stop at offering me Pro (or, technically, nothing at all) since they COULD say that they fulfilled the Pro promo and therefore didn't have to offer me Pipeline. 3D head exports are pretty essential to what I'm doing next (I'm being offered work based on that, which may help recoup the expense of the content I bought and upgrading to export licenses).

I doubt that will be a problem as they seem customer service oriented. But I guess I'm anxious because they seem (like a lot of software and gaming companies) to be moving from a disruptive product that, used effectively, saves a lot of money, to more of a marketplace "freemium" model that relies on lots of individual sales and a long tail purchase system where you need lots of microtransactions and upgrades to get things done. The first few Crazytalks offered disruptive value, doing a lot of work and affording a lot of customization. Now it seems like every product demo uses features that require a paid upgrade and lots of module sales. I'm a little scared that the next step is going to be memberships to keep software active (ie. the software is free in CT9 but exporting requires $20 a month) and key, desired content offered in lottery boxes like a free-to-play MMO (buy a chance box for $2 with a 1 in 50 chance at a new hairstyle) -- or other tactics designed to hide added costs and get the bottom line up.

What made CT appealing to me to begin with was the simplicity and disruptive value for me as a content producer. I feel burned by a lot of media content providers and game designers because there's a tendency, once they get established, to start brainstorming every possible way to increase the bottom line, often as companies go from "how do we make a return and pay everyone?" to "how can we avoid layoffs, expand operations, and give everyone a raise to keep rivals from poaching our talent?" I like Reallusion but I understand some of the anxiety here because I feel like there is a potential for this to be a path towards double and triple dipping, trying to pitch people on more things they don't need. I feel I avoided some of that by sitting out on CT7 and iClone until now, when I could take advantage of Cyberweek specials to get the right mix of packages for things I can do. But I feel for the guy who probably started buying everything in the content store when it launched.

By Colonel_Klink - 10 Years Ago

animagic (11/7/2015)

Thanks, Viking, for finding that post. I knew I had seen it...:P

As to content, I don't buy content I don't need, such as heads. I prefer to do my own...:Wow:

I'm much the same.Investing in Marvellous designer for clothing is one option, as my WWI Colour Blind characters are all 1916-18 era, and I cannot see RL doing those in the near future:)
Most of my cast heads/faces have been created in Iclone 5.5, but it would be nice to have the main characters done in CC using the same templates I used in IC 5.5

Oh and I don't need more software like Crazy Talk as it doesn't interest me.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Patrick,

It won't "stop" with Pro -- I bought enough content to get Pro and then when I bought some more it "upgraded" me to Pipeline. Regardless of what some of us might think about the direction they are going, or how they are marketing things, one thing RL has proven again and again is their customer service is exemplary, and they will make right whatever is wrong in terms of such things (IOW, if you spend $250+ you WILL get Pipeline plain and simple).

By Colonel_Klink - 10 Years Ago

sw00000p (11/9/2015)

Sorry but I have to disagree with this sw00000p. While I'm more than capable of 'getting under the bonnet' and creating stuff myself and using a variety of UV tools I have at my disposal, it is not a case of wanting to do anything for "Free!". When purchased (not free) Iclone 6 I was disappointed that the ability to alter IC 6 characters was not included. Then the announcement of Character Creator came and it looked promising. Admittedly the announcement videos didn't mention photo face fitting, but then I expected it to be included with CC as Character Creator was a plugin and a 'standalone' product. Considering photo face fitting had been a staple part of IC for many of the iterations up until IC 6 one would naturally expect it would be included either in IC6 or CC. To have to buy different product to get that functionality is indeed a slap to the face for Iclone users.
If anything, while I think CC is a great tool, and nice to have it integrated with IC 6, it would be desirable to have other built functionality as well such as custom hair styles, more flexible clothing templates, which alleviates the continued having to dig into one's pocket to get and create the characters we want... But then I digress, I'm able to "get under the bonnet" and get mine for "Free!"...

By larrygj - 10 Years Ago

How did you find that out? I have looked in the My Account area and see nothing new there, nor have I gotten an email from RL saying I can download the Pipeline version...

By Colonel_Klink - 10 Years Ago

I see the dates for the offer for Crazy Talk 8 was 6 Nov to 6 Dec, just my luck spent over $700.00 in the store the month before... Not that I need or want Crazy Talk but the head mapping plugin would have been nice. I guess there's plenty of other IClone users in the same boat. we just have to wait and see what RL does for their faithful users :)

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

larrygj (12/6/2015)

How did you find that out? I have looked in the My Account area and see nothing new there, nor have I gotten an email from RL saying I can download the Pipeline version...

If you are talking to me, I went to this link:

http://www.reallusion.com/member/promotion.aspx

(And logged in it told me I qualified -- note that you may or may not have to login first before you get to this link. I logged in and then followed the FAQ about the promotion until I got to the question "How do I tell if I am qualified?" to find this link).

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

larrygj (12/5/2015)

I don't think you are being sincere. You probably only own one product CT (or pirated versions) and it cannot be "over the years" unless you havent been upgrading only to resurface now. Your argument gives you away IMO and I can bet your total investment in RL products is probably a fraction of what the long term customers have spent.

By Bellatrix - 10 Years Ago

I don't care what the product is called
CrazyTalk, CrazyToes, CrazyEyes, CrazyFingers...
Standard, Pro, Pipeline, SpaceAge, NextGen...

The product will only be interesting to native filmmakers like myself
When IClone iAvatars no longer need to pack up their disembodied heads
exported via domestic shipping route
just to be animated in disembodied way
then take another long-winded domestic transit back to iClone home
just to see if the head animation gel nicely with the rest of the body

What if the head animation needs such minor adjustments?
Okay, into the italk suitcase the head goes, out the door
to make the round trip to district CT8
one iavatar head at a time :rolleyes:
the absurdity of it, should be self-evident to any animator
the unsustainability of it, should also be self-evident to any marketing zealot...
Yet...

Meanwhile as iClone split prosumer tool family into fragments
more partitions, divisions, then "unification"
Autodesk is busy with domestic SEAMLESS INTEGRATION via StingRay game engine
seamless ONE-CLICK feedback of asset pipeline between family members :w00t:
for the holy grail of consistent lighting, shaders, mapping, rigging, morphing editing....one click update
Industry pros reckons even Unreal and Unity is under threat by such moves

Unification is the new holy grail
ONE CLICK EDIT UPDATE unification, to be specific
fragmented "modules" with long-winded daisy-chained pipelines...is really not the new sexy.

Meanwhile CT8 produces a yawn for plugin-hungry users like myself
Me, not gonna pay to upgrade for the fun of domestic import export
to do stuff I can do inside iClone with iHacks, default operation mode in iClone

I'm concerned about waste dev resources...
It seems, 2.5D users hate 3D anyway
3D users tend to shrug at yet another plug-out pipeline with INCONSISTENT UI/ GUI
Another INCONSISTENT lighting/ shaders/ folder management
Another INCONSISTENT Timeline...
Such pleasures...of relearning the same thing again and again
such pleasures of domestic import export
Launching domestic programs...
Applying for domestic travel visas
Packing unpacking italk suitcases...
What kind of Pipeline professionals put up with such anti-workflow these days?

Time to review the so-called unification road map
Reconsider
Is it a good idea to fragment flagship product in current manners
and live up to the word unification

I look forward to a unified iClone product family.
As I've detailed here in this topic

By pumeco - 10 Years Ago

@Job
I reckon you're right, I think it had something to do with charging our dirty male minds somewhere along the line!
Only consolation is that the women here don't even get the option to buy a man-part, which surprises me cause I'm guessing they could make a really good one using the spring dynamics in iClone* :laugh:

*Expect a wave of spring-loaded iCocks to appear in a content store near you soon, as the content providers battle feverishly to make the biggest and most bestist one!

Colonel_Klink (12/6/2015)

... just my luck spent over $700.000 in the store the month before...

Sounds as if you bought the store itself :blink: :P

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

Only consolation is that the women here don't even get the option to buy a man-part, which surprises me cause I'm guessing they could make a really good one using the spring system in iClone* Laugh

Ladies can bring the man part in via Daz>3Di*kExchange>iClone6. Don't forget to lock the morphs.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Actually, they can also buy the CC male parts (attached, even):

http://city.reallusion.com/ContentPreview.aspx?i=JIC625fcb002b75b5926

By patrick.gerard - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (12/6/2015)

larrygj (12/5/2015)

I can't speak for pmaina but I know I did use trials and a school site license for the earliest CTs. I bought 6 and haven't engaged with the community. Nothing in 7 caught my eye.

The video for 8 got me interested enough to try iClone. I think I'd done a trial of a much earlier version but 6 impressed me and CT 8 looked like a meaningful upgrade from 6 to me. 7 added automation but I didn't see anyone doing anything that looked better than 6. People who knew how to puppeteer did hardly better than they did before and people who didn't know how to puppeteer didn't seem to use the new features in 7.

By pumeco - 10 Years Ago

@Lawsuit Pending Records
:laugh:

@Kelleytoons
Hadn't see that one, lol, a big thumbs-up to Bigboss for spotting a potentially lucrative gap in the iClone Content market :D

By TonyTiger - 10 Years Ago

So is today still launch day?

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (12/6/2015)

larrygj (12/5/2015)

You don't know anything about me at all. I have owned every version of iClone since 1.5, I have owned every version of CrazyTalk since version 5, and I have owned every version of Crazy Talk Animator since version 1. But I don't really care what you think, old timers here know me well enough. But thanks for stopping by.

By wires - 10 Years Ago

TonyTiger (12/6/2015)

Hello all,does anyone know if today is still launch day?

No, today is not the launch day - it's the last day for you to move your money from your Bank to the RL Bank. :D:P:cool::hehe::laugh::rolleyes:

The product will be launched in December - 25 days left and counting.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

"larrygj" & "wizaerd" are one person? In that case, my sincere apologies.

By VirtualMedia - 10 Years Ago

There are many valid points in this thread and don't want to discredit any of them, I would however like to add a few thoughts.

I was also an early adopter of IC and Crazy talk, and always felt the characters were less than appealing, to this day the thing that bugged me the most CT was how the head distorted with any rotation. 'Looks like this will soon be fixed'

Fast forward to Dec 2015: Although far from perfect IC has come a long way and the characters that can be created and seamlessly imported through CC are exceptional. I was as skeptical as CC as many are about CT8. However CC IMHO changed the game with character creation. Not sure what Reallusion has under the hood for CT8 but if it's as much of a improvement too head creation as CC was too character creation I welcome it. I understand RL has to make money or there would be no RL. This is generally the way the hardware and software market works. I've spent a fortune on PC's and smartphones that aren't fit for a doorstop in today's standards but I did get use out of them and it was my choice to purchase them

The rant: As many have pointed out it does seem the most loyal RL customers and fans always seem to take the hit financially. Just as many of you have, I've purchased numerous Pro and Pipeline versions of 3DX, IC and CT. I've used CT7 a couple times at most because it still has that goofy head distortion :crazy: I really hope RL takes in consideration who and how loyal their customers are when they reveal the upgrade pricing.

RL PLEASE! Throw the animators a bone! If CT8 or IC7 had a curve editor, some decent timeline, interface improvements and facial animation capabilities I wouldn't have anything but praise to say about the next version and would be fine with paying for an upgrade. This seems to be the only thing that has changed very little for the last 6/7 versions.

Hoping to be pleasantly surprised soon...

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (12/6/2015)

"larrygj" & "wizaerd" are one person? In that case, my sincere apologies.

Uh no... I'm not sure why you've popped out of the woodwork, and trying to stir up trouble... Nothing better to do?

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

VirtualMedia (12/6/2015)I was also an early adopter of IC and Crazy talk, and always felt the characters were less than appealing, to this day the thing that bugged me the most CT was how the head distorted with any rotation. 'Looks like this will soon be fixed'

Personally, this is part of the charm of CrazyTalk. Plus with good masking, and close attention to the photo mapping, this really wasn;t an issue. CrazyTalk, for me, was always a 2D application, useful for animating photographs. It's how it was marketed. If I needed or wanted a 3D head animation, that's what iClone was for. The merging of functionality for these applications, for me, is an unwelcome merging. If I want/need 3D, I'd use iClone with the included photo fitting that used to be a staple of the application. If I need a full body 2D animation, I'd use CrazyTalk Animator. But if I wanted to animate a photograph, I'd use CrazyTalk. Throughout the years, I'd say I've used CrazyTalk way more than the others, because it was the best at what it did. Now? It's a 3D addon, and I have little to no excitement for it.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

TonyTiger (12/6/2015)

So is today still launch day?

Today isn't the launch day for CrazyTalk 8. The release is currently scheduled for the second half of December.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (12/4/2015)

Eric (RL) (12/4/2015)

Yup! The second work in progress video is now live!

Remember! This talking animations that have been purely generated from audio without any key-framing

In CrazyTalk 8 you can add an audio clip and automatically generate the lip-sync and facial expressions without creating any keyframes manually. What you see in the video is totally optional. It is possible to get your character talking and expressing emotions without ever doing any key-framing. The option is just there if you want manual control.

By pumeco - 10 Years Ago

@Peter
Though I have no interest in CrazyTalk, I do like the sound of Reallusion getting involved in the audio-driven stuff.
Is that any sort of a sign that iClone will be able to do audio-driven animation soon, like animating the vertical size of a row of cubes to make them dance like an equalizer display effect?

Audio-driven animation is something I've often wondered why it wasn't there right from way back, pretty much since iClone came out, especially with the amount of dancing and music videos I see.

By JIX - 10 Years Ago

Audio-driven animation is something I've often wondered why it wasn't there right from way back, pretty much since iClone came out, especially with the amount of dancing and music videos I see.

Sooo true! The tech is there. Just implement it in iClone. Come on RL!

By Colonel_Klink - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (12/6/2015)

Actually, they can also buy the CC male parts (attached, even):

http://city.reallusion.com/ContentPreview.aspx?i=JIC625fcb002b75b5926

Not that I need them at all, my characters keep their pants on :), and kudos to BigBoss for his initiative, but Character Creator should have had that option. Up to the individual if they want to .. erm... use characters with anatomical equipment.

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

Hi Peter(RL)
Will there be Popvideo output in CT8 ?
Also will there be a 32 and 64 bit Version,since CTA 64bit couldnt output Popvideo only the 32 bit could?

Thanks

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

wizaerd (12/6/2015)

pmaina (12/6/2015)

"larrygj" & "wizaerd" are one person? In that case, my sincere apologies.

Uh no... I'm not sure why you've popped out of the woodwork, and trying to stir up trouble... Nothing better to do?

Admit it, you are just as highly strung as I am, thanks to RL's strange roadmap. I can foresee a WAR of requirements/preferences between iClone users and CT8 users. 2D and 3D are oil and water. RL wants to use some kind of vodoo to mix them up.

I think those who rushed for CT8 have blundered and they will in all likelihood feel "burned" in terms of value for noney.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (12/6/2015)

If this automatic expressions are the wow factor of CT8 why was it not demonstrated in the teaser video? I can only conclude that even RL feels that its a gimmick with very limited scope of use.

Futher, how does CT8 vary the expressions so that all videos with voice automated expressions don't have chracters "behaving the same"?

By Snarp Farkle - 10 Years Ago

When, as close to exactly as anyone can get, is CT8 going to be released? I was under the impression that it would be the day after the sale ended but now I see "......free copy of Crazytalk 8 when it releases later this month." I was hoping to get it before Christmas, any clues? :ermm:

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

I think Peter has already answered this, at least as close as anyone from RL will say: "The second half of December".

If we take this literally, that will be any time after 12/15 or so, or another week at the earliest. I would suspect RL is as anxious as you are for this to be available in time for Christmas, as there will surely be some folks who can gift this either to someone else or themselves.

And as much as I want to play with this soon (heck, making some Christmas videos would be fun) I think we can all admit that a matter of a few weeks is fine (we're all adults here, right?). It will be Christmas before you know it.

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

pumeco (12/6/2015)

I just want to point out for all those who are marveling at this auto motion capability, CrazyTalk Pro version 7 has had this for a number of years already. It's a pretty cool feature, but it can also look very ridiculous. In order for it to be useful in a realistic approach, it's strength and exaggeration needs to be significantly turned down.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (12/7/2015)

If this automatic expressions are the wow factor of CT8 why was it not demonstrated in the teaser video? I can only conclude that even RL feels that its a gimmick with very limited scope of use.

Did you watch the second WIP video? It is demonstrated from 2.32. :Whistling:

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

wizaerd (12/7/2015)

[quote]

I just want to point out for all those who are marveling at this auto motion capability, CrazyTalk Pro version 7 has had this for a number of years already. It's a pretty cool feature, but it can also look very ridiculous. In order for it to be useful in a realistic approach, it's strength and exaggeration needs to be significantly turned down.

Indeed it is available in CT7 but in CT8 it has been further improved. Now your CT8 character can even get his groove on to music and not just voices (2:47). :D

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Snarp Farkle (12/7/2015)

Unless there is a serious last minute problem you should certainly have CrazyTalk 8 by Christmas. :)

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

brothertcoleman (12/7/2015)

Hi Peter(RL)
Will there be Popvideo output in CT8 ?
Also will there be a 32 and 64 bit Version,since CTA 64bit couldnt output Popvideo only the 32 bit could?

Thanks

We have a new version of popVideo Converter coming that should resolve the current 32bit/64bit problems. :)

By pumeco - 10 Years Ago

I notice I never got a reply (probably cause of my boob comment) :D

Anyway, for anyone interested, just a heads-up that JJJAM created a request for Audio-Driven Animation in iClone :
https://forum.reallusion.com/263136/AUTODRIVEN-ANIMATION

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

We have a new version of popVideo Converter coming that should resolve the current 32bit/64bit problems. Smile

Glad I asked,I was going to buy the PopVideo 2 to get CT8.
PopVideo out was going to be my Pipline to get heads from CT8 to CTA 2 Pipline as I do now with CT7.
So to be clear CT8 will not have PopVideo output?

By MnerosNaRa - 10 Years Ago

Nice

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

@MnerosNaRa

The smoothing feature is in iClone. It appeared there first with the 6.21 update. Both smoothing, and key reduction.

By Snarp Farkle - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (12/7/2015)

:)
Thanks Kelleytoons for the reply, Yeah I had visions of surprising the grand kids with a Christmas video or two, using their faces on some characters, thus the reason for my plea. I've tried the other methods and just not satisfied with the results, too plastic looking for me. I'm excited about the possibility of using CT8, CC and iC6 to make some awesome realistic and cartoonish characters. But I can wait, I'd rather RL take their time and get as many bugs out as possible, no crashes would be great!

As for being an adult, well... my family, friends and loyal readers of my North Coast Voice Magazine articles, place me in the mentally 12 year old category HaHaHa! :D

By Snarp Farkle - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (12/7/2015)

Snarp Farkle (12/7/2015)

Unless there is a serious last minute problem you should certainly have CrazyTalk 8 by Christmas. :)

Thanks Peter, I'm excited about the possibility of using CT8, CC and iC6 to make some awesome realistic and cartoonish characters. But I can wait, I'd rather RL take their time and get as many bugs out as possible, no crashes would be great! :)

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (12/7/2015)

I think those who rushed for CT8 have blundered and they will in all likelihood feel "burned" in terms of value for noney.

I don't know. I needed a few things and I was out of DA points, so no harm done. I also didn't want to wait for the separate Head Creator, which will be coming out later. Now, buying CTA 2 Pipeline was a mistake on my part, as it sits unused...:blush:

By brothertcoleman - 10 Years Ago

I wouldn't say those who rushed made a blunder but I'm glad I waited a while to get the fun pack included with the deal to get CT8.
The $89 CT8 Pipline upgrade price is not bad.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (12/7/2015)

wizaerd (12/6/2015)

pmaina (12/6/2015)

"larrygj" & "wizaerd" are one person? In that case, my sincere apologies.

Uh no... I'm not sure why you've popped out of the woodwork, and trying to stir up trouble... Nothing better to do?

I think those who rushed for CT8 have blundered and they will in all likelihood feel "burned" in terms of value for noney.

comment WITHDRAWN If you are planning to buy content anyway, RL's offer is a good deal. Go for it!

I think part of my negative emotional baggage can be traced to a dissapointing experience with CTA1 which at that time (a few years ago);I thought it could do what CT8 does now.

RL has actually fulfilled my wish (albeit a few years late after i had "adapted" to limitations". I have decided to sidestep the emotions and take up RL offer. Overall my xperience with RL has been great and it would be unwise for me to overlook that.

Taking the plunge NOW.

By wires - 10 Years Ago

Just go a mail from RL with a new deal on CT8 Pipeline - $89.00. Offer good for iClone 6 members.

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/12b46a9b-2bbf-429e-9eab-4b55.png

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/3543d860-b910-426a-90c7-71f8.png

No requirement to purchase anything else.

I still don't need, or want it so I'll just wait for the standalone Head Creator next year.

By peppie - 10 Years Ago

I would like to know how much space "Crazy talk 8" will take up on my "C" drive vs the stand alone head creator.

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

wires (12/8/2015)

Just go a mail from RL with a new deal on CT8 Pipeline - $89.00. Offer good for iClone 6 members.

No requirement to purchase anything else.

I still don't need, or want it so I'll just wait for the standalone Head Creator next year.

I mostly have the same feelings that you expressed in your final sentence.

But I wonder how much the "standalone Head Creator" will cost. (I don't expect an answer to that question. It'd be great, but I don't expect it.)
If it's going to cost $75, then might as well get CT8 Pipeline. Even if Head Creator is $50, it might be worth the extra $39 for CT8 Pipeline... just in case I ever change my mind.
But if Head Creator is $25... hmmm....

I'm going to have to think about this one. It's a good offer, but will it become "shelf ware" that just collects dust? Hmmm...

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

CT8 has a couple other things going for it that iC6 users might want. The auto-animation features being one. It has also been mentioned that CT is likely where facial mocap will rear its head.

By 3DPiXL - 10 Years Ago

Yep just got the IC6 promo deal for CT8 - Just what I was waiting for :)

By ledlight - 10 Years Ago

Email deal seems fair.

That'll do RL... that'll do. :-)

By Colonel_Klink - 10 Years Ago

wires (12/8/2015)

Just go a mail from RL with a new deal on CT8 Pipeline - $89.00. Offer good for iClone 6 members.

No requirement to purchase anything else.

I still don't need, or want it so I'll just wait for the standalone Head Creator next year.

Me too :)

The thing I find with these deals is that by the time you save up for it the deal is over. I found that with 3dXchange, and the CC Essentials pack. Got both but had to cross stuff off my store wishlist to get them... Such is life.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

Good because I am still waiting and thought I had been forgotten. Is there any idea what the members cost from CT8 Pro to Pipeline would be ? or I might as well take this deal and have Pipeline and Pro

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

Lawsuit Pending Records (12/10/2015)

Upgrade prices are sort of a mystery, but usually they are the difference between the two versions at their regular price, which is $100, I believe. It don't think it would be less than $89, so that would be the better deal.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

Thanks animagic. I think I will grab the Pipeline copy as well I thought the Pro would cover internal between apps and Pipeline export outside of the RL arena. I have know for a while now but I can't see the upgrade being any better than the deal currently. Mind you I don't think I even have the offer yet I am only going by what is on here.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

@RL.. Will the workflow below be possible:

1. I use a photo to make head in CT8 & amimate the expressions etc
2. I export the head to CC and modify e.g. toonify it
3. I import into iClone6 and apply animation script

THEN (my question)
If, after step 3, I decide to use a different photo as basis for the head, can I just refit the photo in CT8 and reimport to CC ==> iClone without having to redo the CC modifications already completed for that character i.e. everything else downstream (including "morphs", transformations, expressions & animations in CC or iClone) remains the same for that character?

Thx.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

I can't see how I can buy the pipeline if I don't get the email and the offer ends on the 15th of December.

By Rampa - 10 Years Ago

Lawsuit Pending Records (12/11/2015)

I can't see how I can buy the pipeline if I don't get the email and the offer ends on the 15th of December.

I don't think there is a special code or anything. You just go check your member price in the store.

By LPmoviestvs - 10 Years Ago

when you log in you should see in Your Member Special Campaign Notifications for iclon6 pro users crazyttalk 8 pipline then in not ark peter he will know

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

lp_movies/tvs (12/11/2015)

when you log in you should see in Your Member Special Campaign Notifications for iclon6 pro users crazyttalk 8 pipline then in not ark peter he will know

Thanks for the advice I have been visiting the account a few times to see what was going on. I run iCone 6 Pipeline and have a Pro but in my Members Special Campaign offers I get the Combat Motions Collection which technically gives the appropriate motions to re-arrange a face just not stitch one on.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

Peter (RL), Eric (RL), your comments please?

pmaina (12/10/2015)

@RL.. Will the workflow below be possible:

1. I use a photo to make head in CT8 & amimate the expressions etc
2. I export the head to CC and modify e.g. toonify it
3. I import into iClone6 and apply animation script

THEN (my question)
If, after step 3, I decide to use a different photo as basis for the head, can I just refit the photo in CT8 and reimport to CC ==> iClone without having to redo the CC (or iClone) modifications already completed for that character i.e. everything else downstream (including "morphs", transformations, expressions & animations in CC or iClone) remains the same for that character?

Thx.

I think for the face-fitting feature to be truly in line with RL's vision of accelerated workflow (which is what hooks many of us to your products) it should be possible to refit a head with different photo (i.e. re-cast a character) without redoing the completed "downstream work" e.g. CC morphs/transformations. This is also in-line with RL roadmap of total integration. Fingers crossed.. hoping for good news!:)

By AverageJoe - 10 Years Ago

pmaina (12/10/2015)

Not only is this workflow a giant inconvenient PITA to create a single character (imagine you had a bunch of them to do), but I'm willing to bet the short shortsightedness of RL will not allow for moving back and forth, only forward...

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

wizaerd (12/12/2015)

Fingers crossed. I am really praying for the feature and my hope is that RL's silence means they already have it as a Christmas Surprise (hence they can't comment without spoiling), or they are seriously considering / debating whether to include it in the scheduled release or a as a "super patch". :)

One way of addressing this is to incorporate smart scripting features within CC e.g. the "difference" function I requested for in the CC wishlist and/or the smart "macro" files that would store *relative* CC slider values which can be applied to any character for similar relative results. Key word of course being RELATIVE (not absolute!) slider values.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

Still nothing on the deal for CT8 Pipeline must be email only since my price is $199. Anyway the deal runs out today so I guess unless the email comes in very soon I will have missed it. My account offers me nothing in members side of things only CT7 with free pro etc

By animagic - 10 Years Ago

Lawsuit Pending Records (12/15/2015)

If you have iClone 6 Pro, you should have gotten the email. I wonder why you didn't.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

iClone 6 Pro and iClone 6 Pipeline should have had double the chances of getting my email animagic :-). I went through all of them and I get enough RL emails so I don't appear to be off the list at all and all the other offers in and around this are there..

By toonarama - 10 Years Ago

LPR

I would put in a support ticket for this as you clearly should have qualified for the offer. Might also be worth checking your Spam as Reallusion send so much out these days that is often where my mails from them end up.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

I will send support ticket as RL are on safe senders list and there is nothing in spam. Actually Gmail is best of all when it comes to spam sorting followed by iCloud which has good filters. My Outlook even if I send myself an email it ends up in spam. In fact with Outlook my Spam folder is my Inbox and by Inbox is my Spam as a rule. :-) I will go send ticket I even confused myself then.

By wires - 10 Years Ago

@Lawsuit PR

Check your Forum PM inbox. :) :cool:

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

animagic (12/15/2015)

If you have iClone 6 Pro, you should have gotten the email. I wonder why you didn't.

iClone6 Pipeline sounds super powerful. Maybe that version already has everything included.

By Peter (RL) - 10 Years Ago

Lawsuit Pending Records (12/15/2015)

Please contact Customer Support using the link below. They will be able to help you out. :)

http://www.reallusion.com/CustomerSupport/UserEx/QForm.aspx

By SeanMac - 10 Years Ago

Ah! The Cavalry!

SystemSpecs

HomebuildASRock Z68 Extreme4 MoBo, i7-2600K@3.4Ghz CPU , 16 GB DDR3 RAM, 5.5Tb SATA III HDD, Asus GeForce GTX 970 Strixedition running DX 12.0; Win 10 Pro (64-bit) + Samsung S24D300H 1920X1080 monitor+ spare 1680X1050 monitor. Kinect for Windows v2. Huion 610 Pro Graphicstablet.

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

Hmmm, this doesn't bode well for my free CT8 Pipeline fulfillment (since I didn't get the email for this offer either).

Sigh -- I guess I'll be putting in a help ticket when it gets released (and then wait another week while they sort things out :>).

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

Kelleytoons (12/15/2015)

Why wait until it is released? Once I asked the question here and realized the chances of the email coming in the next 12 hours had the odds stack against it I fired off a support ticket. I am not sure I went to the exact location Peter has put a link to a few posts up but there were enough buttons to do the job and put my case forward. I am sure they will fix it you either qualify or you don't so unless you are using iC6 STD you shouldn't have a problem at all.

@Peter (RL) Thanks for the info

By bluemidget666 - 10 Years Ago

I very nearly missed the deadline, searched through my emails and found it last min :)
So whens it out ? ;)

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

I apologize in advance for my dumb question...

I keep looking at the various Crazy Talk product X,Y,Z listings, and immediately get confused.

If I already have "CrazyTalk Animator 2" what will I gain by purchasing the special offer for "CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline"?
+ The new PHOTO Face Fitter stuff
+ Pipeline features, so I can export the faces to Character Creator, and get them into iClone
+ ..... What else does it do that "Animator 2" doesn't already do?

I have never seriously used CrazyTalk Animator 2, so I'm really quite ignorant about any details of the whole CrazyTalk family.

By bluemidget666 - 10 Years Ago

As I see it its the face fitting and content packs that you will be able to use in CC, Iclone and Crazy talk.
I do not really use Crazy talk much but the Face fitting sold it to me. I could wait for just the face fitting software but the offer at $89 was tooooo tempting.

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

@Blue,
Yeah, that's about where I'm at, too.
I probably "should" wait for the "future" plug-in, but at this price, maybe I'll have enough fun exploring a new software package to make it worthwhile.

I have a couple hours left... any additional comments still welcome. (See my question in the last post of the previous forum page... Page 38.)

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

justaviking - justincase by two copies I might have to buy one from you yet LOL :-) I seriously doubt waiting for the plugin would be beneficial as first you will have to wait and it has been a year for the ability in iC6 already and second at the price of the offer I would think the plugin would not be much cheaper when it does arrive. Or at least not enough to have had to wait. I got a couple of little grandkids and I probably wouldn't use CT myself I have opened up CT6 and 7 for them and they get the thrill of their little lives playing with that. I am putting a copy of the Pro version on a computer here for them so they don't hog my main. Keeps them occupied for hours on a 110 degree day or it is pouring rain. I am not saying you should race out and grab a couple of grandkids to justify having it if you don't have any already because they can be a total PITA and the deal would need to be 12 bucks. I am just pointing out my use for the software. I got it from CT6 and only they have used it I seem to be stuck in iClone even my CTA2 which I have used slightly more and like does not get a look in............ they can have that as well. Future animators :-)

By justaviking - 10 Years Ago

Well... I did it.

I hope the photo/face mapping works well. Not that I "need" it, but that's my primary attraction at this time.
If I don't do much animation with it, maybe I can get my wife to give it a whirl. Who knows, maybe she'll become a YouTube sensation and I can retire.

By pmaina - 10 Years Ago

justaviking (12/16/2015)

If I already have "CrazyTalk Animator 2" what will I gain by purchasing the special offer for "CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline"?
+ The new PHOTO Face Fitter stuff
+ Pipeline features, so I can export the faces to Character Creator, and get them into iClone
+ ..... What else does it do that "Animator 2" doesn't already do?

Ooo I have one!
+ Expands RL's idle real estate on your hard disk. "All your unused hard disk are belong to us".:D

By padrie - 10 Years Ago

releasedate crazy talk 8?

By wires - 10 Years Ago

I will patiently await the arrival of the standalone Face Creator. I do hope that it will have an iClone 6 GUI, and not look like some relic from Windows 1. :sick:

By RobertoColombo - 10 Years Ago

wires (12/16/2015)

I will patiently await the arrival of the standalone Face Creator. I do hope that it will have an iClone 6 GUI, and not look like some relic from Windows 1. :sick:

Same here

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

padrie (12/16/2015)

releasedate crazy talk 8?

The Windows version will be released within two days (according to Peter from RL).

I can well understand both those who aren't too excited about that as well as those of us who can't wait (for Pipeline, at least). I have kept my hopes realistic, though -- I don't expect this to be a whole lot better than what I can do now with some outside programs, but I do expect it will be a lot easier.

By Lawsuit Pending Records - 10 Years Ago

RL support was great so all sorted. Bring it on!!

By mrmdesign - 10 Years Ago

I can not wait to get my hands on Crazytalk 8. If it works as well as it does in the first video, I will be a very happy camper!

By beagleman - 10 Years Ago

Got my copy today and am elated with how easy it is for me to get the kind of exaggerated-features cartoon characters I have been looking for, mostly in vain, for RL. Here is an example I whipped rather quickly in CT8, CC and iClone 6 using two 2d drawings: https://youtu.be/OSeMwgp6hro

By kotursheshadri - 10 Years Ago

Eric thanks

Just now started xploring Crazytalk 8 pipe line - face of it looks a great utility - sure it will live up to this !! - will revert back with loads of doubts and questions !!

sheshadri kotur

By Kelleytoons - 10 Years Ago

beagleman (12/19/2015)

Those are really good examples of what you can do with this -- nice.

By musicaz - 9 Years Ago

But i guess i can be optimistic

By voggdorbis - 9 Years Ago

Can I import a custom background to crazy talk 8

By Peter (RL) - 9 Years Ago

voggdorbis (3/5/2016)

Can I import a custom background to crazy talk 8

You certainly can. It's all explained in the Manual HERE. :)

By Bern1 - 9 Years Ago

Can I import a video file to background Iin CT7 as in CT7?

By Peter (RL) - 9 Years Ago

Bern1 (3/29/2016)

Can I import a video file to background Iin CT7 as in CT7?

CrazyTalk 8 can only have a static background which is the same as in CrazyTalk 7. Video backgrounds are not supported in either product.

By ramuse1970 - 9 Years Ago

When creating a new 3D character from 2 photos, as in the tutorial, The hair is not showing up in the list of editable parts when I go to change the color under texture settings

By ramuse1970 - 9 Years Ago

*** I have no sound from my imported audio lip-sync track, yet the music track works fine! *** UPDATE *** I figured that silly little thing out! Didn't realize there was a dialogue on and off switch, which doesn't make much sense in a program that is based on lip-syncing pictures for animation! Whatever!

By ramuse1970 - 9 Years Ago

*** Has anyone figured out how to change the time restraint on the length of an animation so it can be longer than 30 seconds? *** UPDATE *** Okay, apparently, there was something wrong with the project it's self, as now I can't even open it! All other projects seem to be working without issue! Go figure!

By ramuse1970 - 9 Years Ago

N/A

By SeanMac - 9 Years Ago

@ramuse1970
Time line length
There is a cogwheel icon down in the middle of the timeline - click on that.

Home Built inCoolermaster ATX case with Gigabyte GA-Z170X-GAMING 7 MoBo, i7-6700 @ 3.4 Ghz,Asus GeForce GTX 970 Graphics Card, 16 Gb DDR4 RAM, twin HD monitors, Huion H610Pro Graphics Tablet, Kinect v2

By ramuse1970 - 9 Years Ago

Thanks SeanMac,

No idea what the issue was, but my other projects are just fine! And the project that I was having issues with will not even open now!

By SeanMac - 9 Years Ago

Hi ramuse

Thanks for that.

For all of us who use computers the question is not whether we are paranoid, but whether we are paranoid enough.

Save, change title, save again. Backup.

And it still won't be enough.

(Sigh) :-)

By 4DFans - 9 Years Ago

I posted this a few days ago in Crazytalk and Iclone Technical Issues but this looks like the place it belongs

Been trying to create faces using crazytalk pipeline to export to iClone 6 thru character creator. Seems to create a face with all the features I defined thru Crazy talk but loses the specifics somewhere in the translation. Not satisfied at all.

I bought CT8 pipeline specifically for the Face creation and export capability and I would not have bought it if I knew what i know now. I do find the CT8 face creation tool quite amazing, especially the ability to precisely align side features, which I have to do manually in iC5 editor. It would have been well worth the money for CT8 pipeline, if it had actually imported faces with the same quality as the CT8 face editor. My thing is trying to duplicate characters from those movies and TV that make up my youth (over 300 published to date) and I think I have gotten pretty good at it ... admittedly due substantially to the iC5 head creation tools. I have seen videos on how to create face from scratch in CC or tweak a head from CT but none of these are worth the amount of work since I already have a tool from iC5 face that is easy and can give me the quality I want. I hope RL is working on improving the export capability. So far this has been the biggest disappointment in all the RL products I have bought

By Rampa - 9 Years Ago

@4DFans,

I played with the CT8 demo a while back and discovered that the default texture export was 1024. You can go into the texture settings (sorry don't remember how right now for a tutorial) and export the texture separately at 2048. Then load that texture in CC or iClone.

CC must also be set for 2048 in the appearance editor to import the the texture. Also, make sure iClone is set at 2048, or above, for real-time texture display.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

It's really a matter of getting to know the tool. I my own work I have found a significant improvement going from IC5 to CC heads, and I find it hard to go back. Others have had a similar experience.

I've had great benefit from the tutorials that have been published. Rampa's tip is a valuable one.

By mr_vidius - 9 Years Ago

all this talk about heads is making mine roll! :crazy: I don't understand RL's logic. maybe you "Gods of the forum" could enlighten me. why didn't RL put facial creation in CC?
the new CT 8.1 head creating thingy does nothing for me. because I still require the pipeline to send the head to CC. I'm left frustrated, disappointed, and pissed off. this having to purchase the pipeline to make a head is stupid beyond stupid. considering that I'm not exporting something to use in another program other than CC or iclone 6. to be used in iclone 6. this puts me into a position of having to go to a content developer, and paying them to make a head that I should be able to do myself. what a waste of time. where is the "awesome workflow" in that? none that I see. now I have to sit down. and figure out what heads I got to pay someone else to make. :crazy: yeah. I can see the pipeline if I was using other programs like most of you "Gods of the forum". but I'm just using iclone. and feeling mighty screwed over at this point. you guys are looking forward to iclone 7. I'm looking forward to a competitor to RL popping up. then I would get the pipeline to switch over

but until then.. can anyone tell me how much cash I got to fork over to have some heads made?.

vidius

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

@mr_vidius: I understand your frustation, and you may remember that all this was discussed vehemently, especially by long-time users. A cheaper solution in the form of a head creator just for iClone and CC has been announced, but we are still waiting; I don't even know if it's stiil on the table.

I think at the time I bought a lot of content or DA points to get a free CT 8 Pipeline, and I just moved on. It's mainly a hobby for me as well, so it is an expense. The reason I stick with RL is that overall I have had a positive experience. I've tried other programs, but for me there isn't really a viable alternative. All that said, the idea of a "head service" is a good one, especially for those who only need a few heads and can't justify the cost of CT8 Pipeline.

By mr_vidius - 9 Years Ago

animagic (9/17/2016)

thank you for responding. I did not know about a planned head creator for CC. must have somehow missed that announcement. most likely it was scrapped or perhaps going to be added to iclone 7. add it to the long list of things RL never follows thru on. most of my experience with RL is positive. it's just those annoying "common sense" things that should have been included in the program but never got there that irk me.

By 4DFans - 9 Years Ago

Although last post I implied I was give up on CT8 I have continued to play with. slowly getting better compensating for the problems with the CT8 to CC. The translation tend to slightly exaggerate many of the bumps and dips in the face. My solution so far is:

1) Once you get the face into CC go to the CC Base body Skin head material and go down to the material settign and change the ambient color from the near black default to white or very light grey. I think they make the ambient color dark to bring out detail but that seems to mess up the faces.

2) next clean up the facial material save the diffusion image someplace where you can reload.

3) If the first 2 steps don't do it, the next step is the killer. Make a backup of your CT8 head. Examine the the image in CC and compare it to the image you want (either in CT8 or an image) and try to figure out what needs to be tweaked to fix it.Then using the facial editor to include the detailed morph in CT8 first and then the face morphing in CC, teak the models to make them look more like your intended subject. I recommend keeping the changes small and don't be afraid to un do it when it does n't work. In the end you you CT8 May not look very good.

Here is my first success, looks Ok,

I try to tweak the Natalie i used in a previous video for comparison purposes

Note: it appears that with the last updates the quality of the translation from CT8 to CC seam to improve. Not sure if anyone else noticed a difference or if it is just me figuring out how to tweak it

By Peter (RL) - 9 Years Ago

mr_vidius (9/17/2016)

Hi Vidius,

We are sorry to hear you feel frustrated with the current pipeline for creating heads from photos. To be clear you can create new heads in CC by using morph sliders and even use 3rd party tools to edit facial textures. However if you want to quickly create a 3D head from a photo then you will need CrazyTalk 8 Pipeline. There is no other way at present.

We do know this decision has caused some annoyance and we are evaluating a number of different options for the next version of iClone so your feedback is valuable to us. We hope to announce more about the new features coming in the next iClone soon.

By JIX - 9 Years Ago

Well, it will cause annoyance, if you outsource functionality which was part of the toolset before. Especially if you have to buy another software to get that functionality back ...

Anyways ... I´m curious about the news regarding the further development of iClone already.

By R Ham - 9 Years Ago

What an interesting thread. I wasn't aware so many IC users see what I see.
When a company is run primarily by Marketing, you often do not get enlightened technical decisions. And sometimes you see greed. It is always wise to question the hype. If RL engineering was as powerful as RL marketing, IC would be a six lane highway to the moon.

By animagic - 9 Years Ago

Eddie G (12/4/2016)

I don't believe there is a company where engineering is put above marketing and management... At least with RL we have user input: see iClone 7. Also, RL is still in business. Many innovative 3D companies have passed away since. TrueSpace comes to mind, but there are others.

By GreedyPeopleSuck - 8 Years Ago

I don't believe there is a company where engineering is put above marketing and management...

Truer words have never been written. It's the same story with every partnership...a person who can bring in business is worth more than a person who can execute and keep business.

Gavin McInnes, a founder of a now billion dollar company, recently went on a rant about how it went wrong for him at Vice this way. Shane Smith marketed so well he got pushed out. He was the brains and talent, but a good saleman selling hype and fake news targeted at an impressionable demographic was worth a lot more than creating respectable content reliably before deadlines.

By ingie01 - 8 Years Ago

What a bunch of whiners. I have been with RL since the beginning. This is fantastic software. I don't know how much I've spent,but it probably would be the equivalent to purchasing 3 major popular 3-d programs.I have never found another program so easy and with the depth and power. Now with real cameras when the new iclone is released. Yeh, any of this shit is expensive!