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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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hello ppl, I am now a happy and licensed :) User of the iclone.i like to
introduce myself to you guys as a iclone/octane user's ll post results here two videos of my studies with iclone. and would like to increase the discussion
about the professional use of iclone as animation tool using external renders as octane render.
this first video was the result of my studies using daz/3dmax/3d xchange/octane render.
the amazing thing is. the entyre video only got 6 hours to render ( all animation ) in octane render. the bruteforce render in octane using my little render farm ( 6 gpus ) got 15 seconds per frame to render at 300 samples
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfiGixNXdz4
this second video was done in iclone 5.5 and renderized on octane render and got only 5 hours to render 30 secs animation using brute force path tracing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88wA-YvZz9o
i am open to talk about my pipeline and interact with all members , and i want know if more ppl planning create content using mudbox / character creator.
my first plays with character creator and octane render 
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By JIX - 11 Years Ago
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Bem-vindo! Nice to have one more member in this forum with experience in render pipeline ...
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By genao87 - 11 Years Ago
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what are your computer specs? Im curious because it took you like 6 hours to render a few minutes animation video.
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By Kelleytoons - 11 Years Ago
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It took him that long (even with 6 GPUs involved in his render farm) because he is using an unbiased renderer, similar to Indigo, which essentially will take as much time per frame as you let it (the trick is to optimize the render yourself by figuring out how much time per frame you want it to take, which will trade off then in terms of radiance calculation).
You can't compare it to the renderer native to iClone because they are apples/oranges -- a more accurate comparison would be to Indigo (which could easily take hours and perhaps even days to render a few minutes of quality animation). Like with nearly everything else in life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want the kind of quality these type of renderers provide, you need to spend the "time" (as well as the money to try and speed them up, as well as to purchase them -- speeding them up is possible by throwing more hardware resources at them). He also used more resources to move things in and out of iClone (unlike Indigo, which has built-in pipelines to do this).
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By wendyluvscatz - 11 Years Ago
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Considering I mostly settle for 10 samples a frame and direct lighting kernel doing Octane render 4 Carrara animations I am quite suitably impressed.
3000 and pathtracing is a still image for me.
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By wendyluvscatz - 11 Years Ago
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double post sorry
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By Dreamcube017 - 11 Years Ago
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Wow that is awesome.
YOu said you use 3DS Max at some point. At which point is Max involved? Is that how you get the characters into Octane?
While Octane and Indigo are indeed the same type of renderer, Octane is still a lot faster than Indigo (and most other GPU unbiased renderers for that matter aside from MAYBE cycles).
Did you just do the camera animation in 3DS Max?
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By genao87 - 11 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (10/23/2015)
It took him that long (even with 6 GPUs involved in his render farm) because he is using an unbiased renderer, similar to Indigo, which essentially will take as much time per frame as you let it (the trick is to optimize the render yourself by figuring out how much time per frame you want it to take, which will trade off then in terms of radiance calculation).
You can't compare it to the renderer native to iClone because they are apples/oranges -- a more accurate comparison would be to Indigo (which could easily take hours and perhaps even days to render a few minutes of quality animation). Like with nearly everything else in life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want the kind of quality these type of renderers provide, you need to spend the "time" (as well as the money to try and speed them up, as well as to purchase them -- speeding them up is possible by throwing more hardware resources at them). He also used more resources to move things in and out of iClone (unlike Indigo, which has built-in pipelines to do this).
You dont have to worry about me spending the time and money in accomplishing my goals. That is already a done deal. The reason why I ask was to get an idea since I am going to upgrade my PC tremendously and that is why I asking so I can help speed up rendering.
So you are saying to do a 30 minute animation, which is my goal....I have to wait countless days and hours?
One thing about Octane is that folks have to tinker around to get the settings again that they lost when importing to it.
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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wendyluvscatz (10/23/2015)
Considering I mostly settle for 10 samples a frame and direct lighting kernel doing Octane render 4 Carrara animations I am quite suitably impressed.
3000 and pathtracing is a still image for me.
300 samples no 3k. :) and yes i got between 5 and 15 secs render time for 1080p frame in direct difuse ( is almost the same as path tracing but more fast. ) this is suitable for a short movie animation or long or a animated serie for example
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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Dreamcube017 (10/23/2015)
Wow that is awesome.
YOu said you use 3DS Max at some point. At which point is Max involved? Is that how you get the characters into Octane?
While Octane and Indigo are indeed the same type of renderer, Octane is still a lot faster than Indigo (and most other GPU unbiased renderers for that matter aside from MAYBE cycles).
Did you just do the camera animation in 3DS Max?
i use 3ds max for light sets , camera shots. shaders settings and octane render settings all using octane render plug in for 3ds max. at this point iclone was a big help to previz the animations due the camera work inside iclone is more friendly than 3ds max.
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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genao87 (10/23/2015)
what are your computer specs? Im curious because it took you like 6 hours to render a few minutes animation video.
kelleytoons answer your question..
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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genao87 (10/23/2015)
Kelleytoons (10/23/2015)
It took him that long (even with 6 GPUs involved in his render farm) because he is using an unbiased renderer, similar to Indigo, which essentially will take as much time per frame as you let it (the trick is to optimize the render yourself by figuring out how much time per frame you want it to take, which will trade off then in terms of radiance calculation).
You can't compare it to the renderer native to iClone because they are apples/oranges -- a more accurate comparison would be to Indigo (which could easily take hours and perhaps even days to render a few minutes of quality animation). Like with nearly everything else in life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want the kind of quality these type of renderers provide, you need to spend the "time" (as well as the money to try and speed them up, as well as to purchase them -- speeding them up is possible by throwing more hardware resources at them). He also used more resources to move things in and out of iClone (unlike Indigo, which has built-in pipelines to do this).You dont have to worry about me spending the time and money in accomplishing my goals. That is already a done deal. The reason why I ask was to get an idea since I am going to upgrade my PC tremendously and that is why I asking so I can help speed up rendering. So you are saying to do a 30 minute animation, which is my goal....I have to wait countless days and hours? One thing about Octane is that folks have to tinker around to get the settings again that they lost when importing to it.
the awesome thing is. a iclone engine render cost me one second. is somthing about 1 sec per frame. is amazing fast but the iclone engine wants get somethings to start be a professional renderchoice for me. octane render with 6 gpus deliver me a 1080p frame in amazing realistic quality in 5 or 10 secs per frame ( this is about complexiity of the scene ) , octane render start be a amazing choice when u use 3 gpus , 1 gpu or 2 is not enouthg i am using 6 gtx 780 ti and i am really happy with the performance. about render a 30 minutes animation just use your calculator. 1 frame = 10 secs render time ( more or less depending of your inteligence to avoid some gaps ) 1 sec = 30 frames ....
for me is the perfect way to produce a 3d movie with 60 or more minutes or a short with 15 minutes ( i am working on one short the name is The guardians of the light order ) the perfect combo . the iclone power + octane render power
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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the unique thing i am want hard is 3d xchange support softcloth animations to export via fbx. i already use apex cloth inside 3d max but the iclone soft cloth system is amazing easy and powerfull
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By genao87 - 11 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/23/2015)
genao87 (10/23/2015)
Kelleytoons (10/23/2015)
It took him that long (even with 6 GPUs involved in his render farm) because he is using an unbiased renderer, similar to Indigo, which essentially will take as much time per frame as you let it (the trick is to optimize the render yourself by figuring out how much time per frame you want it to take, which will trade off then in terms of radiance calculation).
You can't compare it to the renderer native to iClone because they are apples/oranges -- a more accurate comparison would be to Indigo (which could easily take hours and perhaps even days to render a few minutes of quality animation). Like with nearly everything else in life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want the kind of quality these type of renderers provide, you need to spend the "time" (as well as the money to try and speed them up, as well as to purchase them -- speeding them up is possible by throwing more hardware resources at them). He also used more resources to move things in and out of iClone (unlike Indigo, which has built-in pipelines to do this).You dont have to worry about me spending the time and money in accomplishing my goals. That is already a done deal. The reason why I ask was to get an idea since I am going to upgrade my PC tremendously and that is why I asking so I can help speed up rendering. So you are saying to do a 30 minute animation, which is my goal....I have to wait countless days and hours? One thing about Octane is that folks have to tinker around to get the settings again that they lost when importing to it. the awesome thing is. a iclone engine render cost me one second. is somthing about 1 sec per frame. is amazing fast but the iclone engine wants get somethings to start be a professional renderchoice for me. octane render with 6 gpus deliver me a 1080p frame in amazing realistic quality in 5 or 10 secs per frame ( this is about complexiity of the scene ) , octane render start be a amazing choice when u use 3 gpus , 1 gpu or 2 is not enouthg i am using 6 gtx 780 ti and i am really happy with the performance. about render a 30 minutes animation just use your calculator. 1 frame = 10 secs render time ( more or less depending of your inteligence to avoid some gaps ) 1 sec = 30 frames ....
for me is the perfect way to produce a 3d movie with 60 or more minutes or a short with 15 minutes ( i am working on one short the name is The guardians of the light order ) the perfect combo . the iclone power + octane render power
so iclone render is very fast...good to hear....now wait a minute...iclone engine wants something? to be a professional render choice? i dont understand that part.
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By Kelleytoons - 11 Years Ago
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I don't want to speak for him but I suspect he is trying to convey what I feel -- which is that the iClone native renderer, which is lightning fast (being mostly done using game render technology, which shades and renders in Real Time) is "missing" the quality of a full-blown renderer (there are ALL kinds of renderers, so a discussion on them would wander far OT here) and thus isn't satisfactory to him.
Whether that's true of you or not depends on ALL of your requirements -- money, of course, but also what you are expecting out of your product. But don't make the mistake of some people in assuming that the renderer is the final or even *most* important part of the equation. By far the most important part of how well something looks is how it's put together: lighting plays a HUGE factor in how well your render will be, as does materials, animation and scene construction. A quality renderer can't turn a crappy scene into something good, while a well constructed scene will look pretty good regardless of how it's rendered.
If your goal is a 30 minute production you still have to define what it means to create that. Realistically, it will take you many months just to create the scenes for such a production, assuming your standards are high enough. When I was getting paid for my animation we thought nothing of a six month or longer schedule for such a task, and we had a team working on the project. Which isn't to say that a single person can't do 30 minutes of animation in a month, but I doubt whether it would be worth watching. Even *writing* such a project should take many months -- but we'll assume you've already gone through that (and writing the project is WAY more important than anything else -- the acting, the scene construction, the rendering, all of them mean absolutely nothing if the writing isn't good. You should expect to spend at least two or three times as much time writing your work as you do producing it).
You should look at all your options for the production pipeline, and this is just one of them. Remember there are a LOT of steps involved whenever you go away from a self-contained solution like iClone -- so even just figuring those steps out can take time. If it's worth doing, though, it's worth the time to do it right.
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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genao87 (10/23/2015)
wildstar (10/23/2015)
genao87 (10/23/2015)
Kelleytoons (10/23/2015)
It took him that long (even with 6 GPUs involved in his render farm) because he is using an unbiased renderer, similar to Indigo, which essentially will take as much time per frame as you let it (the trick is to optimize the render yourself by figuring out how much time per frame you want it to take, which will trade off then in terms of radiance calculation).
You can't compare it to the renderer native to iClone because they are apples/oranges -- a more accurate comparison would be to Indigo (which could easily take hours and perhaps even days to render a few minutes of quality animation). Like with nearly everything else in life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want the kind of quality these type of renderers provide, you need to spend the "time" (as well as the money to try and speed them up, as well as to purchase them -- speeding them up is possible by throwing more hardware resources at them). He also used more resources to move things in and out of iClone (unlike Indigo, which has built-in pipelines to do this).You dont have to worry about me spending the time and money in accomplishing my goals. That is already a done deal. The reason why I ask was to get an idea since I am going to upgrade my PC tremendously and that is why I asking so I can help speed up rendering. So you are saying to do a 30 minute animation, which is my goal....I have to wait countless days and hours? One thing about Octane is that folks have to tinker around to get the settings again that they lost when importing to it. the awesome thing is. a iclone engine render cost me one second. is somthing about 1 sec per frame. is amazing fast but the iclone engine wants get somethings to start be a professional renderchoice for me. octane render with 6 gpus deliver me a 1080p frame in amazing realistic quality in 5 or 10 secs per frame ( this is about complexiity of the scene ) , octane render start be a amazing choice when u use 3 gpus , 1 gpu or 2 is not enouthg i am using 6 gtx 780 ti and i am really happy with the performance. about render a 30 minutes animation just use your calculator. 1 frame = 10 secs render time ( more or less depending of your inteligence to avoid some gaps ) 1 sec = 30 frames ....
for me is the perfect way to produce a 3d movie with 60 or more minutes or a short with 15 minutes ( i am working on one short the name is The guardians of the light order ) the perfect combo . the iclone power + octane render power so iclone render is very fast...good to hear....now wait a minute...iclone engine wants something? to be a professional render choice? i dont understand that part.
The iclone render engine is good , and i can show you for me the best use for iclone engine render is that work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJmO5cLQinA, and yes render engine is not all u need a good concept nice modeling nice lights , character animation and good camera work.
for me the iclone native render engine needs :
a better ambient occlusion
a fake global ilumination like unreal engine 4. only this and the iclone will be a pro render option for me .
Nvidia hair works support gonna be a revolution :p
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By genao87 - 11 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (10/23/2015)
I don't want to speak for him but I suspect he is trying to convey what I feel -- which is that the iClone native renderer, which is lightning fast (being mostly done using game render technology, which shades and renders in Real Time) is "missing" the quality of a full-blown renderer (there are ALL kinds of renderers, so a discussion on them would wander far OT here) and thus isn't satisfactory to him.
Whether that's true of you or not depends on ALL of your requirements -- money, of course, but also what you are expecting out of your product. But don't make the mistake of some people in assuming that the renderer is the final or even *most* important part of the equation. By far the most important part of how well something looks is how it's put together: lighting plays a HUGE factor in how well your render will be, as does materials, animation and scene construction. A quality renderer can't turn a crappy scene into something good, while a well constructed scene will look pretty good regardless of how it's rendered.
If your goal is a 30 minute production you still have to define what it means to create that. Realistically, it will take you many months just to create the scenes for such a production, assuming your standards are high enough. When I was getting paid for my animation we thought nothing of a six month or longer schedule for such a task, and we had a team working on the project. Which isn't to say that a single person can't do 30 minutes of animation in a month, but I doubt whether it would be worth watching. Even *writing* such a project should take many months -- but we'll assume you've already gone through that (and writing the project is WAY more important than anything else -- the acting, the scene construction, the rendering, all of them mean absolutely nothing if the writing isn't good. You should expect to spend at least two or three times as much time writing your work as you do producing it).
You should look at all your options for the production pipeline, and this is just one of them. Remember there are a LOT of steps involved whenever you go away from a self-contained solution like iClone -- so even just figuring those steps out can take time. If it's worth doing, though, it's worth the time to do it right.
I already have this in mind. My major is animations/motion and design in college. I already have a bachelors and masters in Computer Science though in networking/programming...I need to know more about the hardware. But I understand everything what you are saying.
And yes, writing is very important. I have watched the Transformers movies...even though the animation and motion graphics were ridiculous good....the bad story/plot writing made me give up on staying and finishing the whole movie. I actually wrote a paper about it, LOL
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By genao87 - 11 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/23/2015)
genao87 (10/23/2015)
wildstar (10/23/2015)
genao87 (10/23/2015)
Kelleytoons (10/23/2015)
It took him that long (even with 6 GPUs involved in his render farm) because he is using an unbiased renderer, similar to Indigo, which essentially will take as much time per frame as you let it (the trick is to optimize the render yourself by figuring out how much time per frame you want it to take, which will trade off then in terms of radiance calculation).
You can't compare it to the renderer native to iClone because they are apples/oranges -- a more accurate comparison would be to Indigo (which could easily take hours and perhaps even days to render a few minutes of quality animation). Like with nearly everything else in life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want the kind of quality these type of renderers provide, you need to spend the "time" (as well as the money to try and speed them up, as well as to purchase them -- speeding them up is possible by throwing more hardware resources at them). He also used more resources to move things in and out of iClone (unlike Indigo, which has built-in pipelines to do this).You dont have to worry about me spending the time and money in accomplishing my goals. That is already a done deal. The reason why I ask was to get an idea since I am going to upgrade my PC tremendously and that is why I asking so I can help speed up rendering. So you are saying to do a 30 minute animation, which is my goal....I have to wait countless days and hours? One thing about Octane is that folks have to tinker around to get the settings again that they lost when importing to it. the awesome thing is. a iclone engine render cost me one second. is somthing about 1 sec per frame. is amazing fast but the iclone engine wants get somethings to start be a professional renderchoice for me. octane render with 6 gpus deliver me a 1080p frame in amazing realistic quality in 5 or 10 secs per frame ( this is about complexiity of the scene ) , octane render start be a amazing choice when u use 3 gpus , 1 gpu or 2 is not enouthg i am using 6 gtx 780 ti and i am really happy with the performance. about render a 30 minutes animation just use your calculator. 1 frame = 10 secs render time ( more or less depending of your inteligence to avoid some gaps ) 1 sec = 30 frames ....
for me is the perfect way to produce a 3d movie with 60 or more minutes or a short with 15 minutes ( i am working on one short the name is The guardians of the light order ) the perfect combo . the iclone power + octane render power so iclone render is very fast...good to hear....now wait a minute...iclone engine wants something? to be a professional render choice? i dont understand that part. The iclone render engine is good , and i can show you for me the best use for iclone engine render is that work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJmO5cLQinA, and yes render engine is not all u need a good concept nice modeling nice lights , character animation and good camera work. for me the iclone native render engine needs : a better ambient occlusion a fake global ilumination like unreal engine 4. only this and the iclone will be a pro render option for me . Nvidia hair works support gonna be a revolution :p
oh that video is Iclone. The animation was kind of slow in some parts but from that, that is pretty good. It didnt look static/robotic compare to most animations from Iclone users that I have seen.
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By Kelleytoons - 11 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/23/2015)
Nvidia hair works support gonna be a revolution :p
Do you have reason to believe Hairworks (note that it's one word, not two) is going to be supported any time soon in iClone? I can find no references for it anywhere on the 'net.
It would be *great* if the same kind of support 3DS Max has for it was available in iClone, but something tells me this ain't gonna happen any time soon (i.e., in my lifetime, which unfortunately is a lot shorter than all of you :>). Note that we'd need ALL the abilities of Hairworks, not just the rendering ones (so we could define our own hair and fur).
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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Sorry for my Bad english Kelley i am Brazilian sorry :( . i talk about iclone support Nvidia Hairworks on future , cause Nvidia Hairworks is a Nvidia Api like Apex clothing ( utilized on iclone as softcloth ) and is part of PhysiX engine. already supported by iclone. dont forget . Iclone is a game engine. and yes i hope Nvidia Hairworks will be supported in future like will be suported by Unreal Engine, or Unity etc .
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By Kelleytoons - 11 Years Ago
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Hey, your English is a LOT better than my Porteguese! <g>.
So you are *hoping* for Hairworks support, based on the current support for many NVidia features, and I would say it's a good hope. I am not so hopeful -- I kind of doubt whether it will come as Hairworks has been around for a while (at least a couple of years which, in computer terms, is an eternity). If it comes I would doubt we'd see it before iClone 7 to be sure, and perhaps not even then (so at least another couple of years). Let's hope I AM around to see it (:>)
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By genao87 - 11 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/23/2015)
Sorry for my Bad english Kelley i am Brazilian sorry :( . i talk about iclone support Nvidia Hairworks on future , cause Nvidia Hairworks is a Nvidia Api like Apex clothing ( utilized on iclone as softcloth ) and is part of PhysiX engine. already supported by iclone. dont forget . Iclone is a game engine. and yes i hope Nvidia Hairworks will be supported in future like will be suported by Unreal Engine, or Unity etc .
Iclone is a game engine...that is good to here. Do you know alot about Unreal Engine? Like for Cinema Movies/Animations, is it as fast to create just like Iclone?
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By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/23/2015)
the awesome thing is. a iclone engine render cost me one second. is somthing about 1 sec per frame. is amazing fast but the iclone engine wants get somethings to start be a professional renderchoice for me. octane render with 6 gpus deliver me a 1080p frame in amazing realistic quality in 5 or 10 secs per frame ( this is about complexiity of the scene ) , octane render start be a amazing choice when u use 3 gpus , 1 gpu or 2 is not enouthg i am using 6 gtx 780 ti and i am really happy with the performance. about render a 30 minutes animation just use your calculator. 1 frame = 10 secs render time ( more or less depending of your inteligence to avoid some gaps ) 1 sec = 30 frames ....
for me is the perfect way to produce a 3d movie with 60 or more minutes or a short with 15 minutes ( i am working on one short the name is The guardians of the light order ) the perfect combo . the iclone power + octane render power
Technically your setup is iclone + 3dsmax + octane + 80% HARDWARE PROWESS. ;)
10 sec/frame using 6 GPUs, your scenes need optimizing
I'll happily settle for 30 sec per frame rendering multiple 4Kmap Genesis realtime subD + displacement
easily achieved using Carrara Octane (OR4C) and 1 single GPU.
I also reckon rendering iClone stock geometry/textures in animation beyond 300 samples is pointless.
I also think time servicing SLI setups and heating issue is best spent on scene optimization :)
But everyone budgets differently...
Now that I'm reinvesting energy in iClone CC pipeline
Oh the pain of down-res everything to game render quality...lol
Carrara Octane is so well implemented (better than Daz Octane)
Lighting/ material change, instant feedback in floating viewport
Clothing/hair change, character move, instant feedback in floating viewport
Never needed to leave native viewport
Shader translation between main app and renderer plugin
typical the biggest time expenditure
is a piece of cake in OR4C
(thanks to one man dev Sighman)
Here's a screen grab of my production notes, typically 100 samples
I really miss the ability to audition shaders Carrara Octane - in REALTIME
I wish one day we can do this directly within iClone
via Indigo Octane Renderman Iray Furryball - doesn't matter
what matters the most - instant WYSIWYG feedback
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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the big problem to use Unreal engine 4 to produce shorts movies etc. is the time u lose to convert fbx to the engine, and after that, more time to set shaders, i really dont like the shaders config from unreal engine 4,( this is my opnion ) and after that another big time setting lights and compile, compile , compile, ( if u using high quality shadows and fake globall ilumination is a big lose of time setting scenes inside unreal engine 4) is my opnion .i can be wrong.
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By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago
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for me the iclone native render engine needs :
a better ambient occlusion
a fake global ilumination like unreal engine 4. only this and the iclone will be a pro render option for me .
Nvidia hair works support gonna be a revolution :p
yep, the current AO is so 2004
I can eyeball GI for now
but yes localized GI on the fly would be nice
other fixes that would improve iClone native render by multiple times
excessive shadow flicker needs calibration
transparency needs updating
custom realtime reflection probe on the fly
post effects - bokeh, directional gaussian...
I can go on...but... :)
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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Bellatrix (10/24/2015)
wildstar (10/23/2015)
the awesome thing is. a iclone engine render cost me one second. is somthing about 1 sec per frame. is amazing fast but the iclone engine wants get somethings to start be a professional renderchoice for me. octane render with 6 gpus deliver me a 1080p frame in amazing realistic quality in 5 or 10 secs per frame ( this is about complexiity of the scene ) , octane render start be a amazing choice when u use 3 gpus , 1 gpu or 2 is not enouthg i am using 6 gtx 780 ti and i am really happy with the performance. about render a 30 minutes animation just use your calculator. 1 frame = 10 secs render time ( more or less depending of your inteligence to avoid some gaps ) 1 sec = 30 frames ....
for me is the perfect way to produce a 3d movie with 60 or more minutes or a short with 15 minutes ( i am working on one short the name is The guardians of the light order ) the perfect combo . the iclone power + octane render power Technically your setup is iclone + 3dsmax + octane + 80% HARDWARE PROWESS. ;) 10 sec/frame using 6 GPUs, your scenes need optimizing I'll happily settle for 30 sec per frame rendering multiple 4Kmap Genesis realtime subD + displacement easily achieved using Carrara Octane (OR4C) and 1 single GPU. I also reckon rendering iClone stock geometry/textures in animation beyond 300 samples is pointless. I also think time servicing SLI setups and heating issue is best spent on scene optimization :) But everyone budgets differently... Now that I'm reinvesting energy in iClone CC pipeline Oh the pain of down-res everything to game render quality...lol Carrara Octane is so well implemented (better than Daz Octane) Lighting/ material change, instant feedback in floating viewport Clothing/hair change, character move, instant feedback in floating viewport Never needed to leave native viewport Shader translation between main app and renderer plugin typical the biggest time expenditure is a piece of cake in OR4C (thanks to one man dev Sighman) Here's a screen grab of my production notes, typically 100 samples I really miss the ability to audition shaders Carrara Octane - in REALTIME I wish one day we can do this directly within iClone via Indigo Octane Renderman Iray Furryball - doesn't matter what matters the most - instant WYSIWYG feedback
like i said 10 secs per frame dependending from scene . for simple character render i am working in real time at 300 samples in 1080p and path tracing, like the wolverine test i put in my post.. the "There is no free lunch" fact for octane render is the time u lose copying geometry from ram to vram , for several animations this start be a big real problem. ( yes i use octane move proxys to make my render time more fast ) when i said 10 secs per frame like the *batman vs superman animation , 6 secs my machines get copyng geometry from ram to vram . the other 4 secs is for the real render.. in time, this animation is from 7 months back and i am realy better setting scenes, lights and shaders inside octane /max like u can see my wolverine get SSS shader on your skin , in your production notes i cant see any nice shader , and ok my animations are HARDWARE PROWESS so can you show me your animations no HARDWARE PROWESS? :)
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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let me try explain better. after u copy the geometry from ram to vram all you do on the fly (WYSIWYG) camera moves. light moves. shader settings. but when you modify the geometry like a morph o a vertex animation , or a simple move or scale objetc . you want refresh the geometry inside octane, more geometry moving or changing more render time. i am studying 3d max hair now, and my fight is just that make a nice hair with less geometry as possible cause the hair will be dinamic in animation. ahh this render cost me 1 sec to get 300 samples :)
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By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/24/2015)
like i said 10 secs per frame dependending from scene . for simple character render i am working in real time at 300 samples in 1080p and path tracing, like the wolverine test i put in my post.. the "There is no free lunch" fact for octane render is the time u lose copying geometry from ram to vram , for several animations this start be a big real problem. ( yes i use octane move proxys to make my render time more fast ) when i said 10 secs per frame like the *batman vs superman animation , 6 secs my machines get copyng geometry from ram to vram . the other 4 secs is for the real render.. in time, this animation is from 7 months back and i am realy better setting scenes, lights and shaders inside octane /max like u can see my wolverine get SSS shader on your skin , in your production notes i cant see any nice shader , and ok my animations are HARDWARE PROWESS so can you show me your animations no HARDWARE PROWESS? :)
Don't get me wrong wildstar... :)
I emphasized hardware prowess, not to doubt
your animation skill (good) or movie making skill (different topic)
but as a response to your framing your setup as "Octane-iClone"
(I thought wow RL got Octane on board as iClone plugin now???) :)
Your setup is strictly speaking 3dsmax with iClone as a motion plugin
Totally legit and sensible workflow!
I think the mid-fi movemakers here are in the same boat
We don't mind spending extra (well I don't)
For me (and a few other iCloners) TIME is more important then money
So the bottomline...and topic relevant
what kind of visual result + shortest overall workflow time
can we squeeze out of our tools
To me...
The fewer Software + Hardware, the better :)
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By wendyluvscatz - 11 Years Ago
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I wish there was a way to at least use hairworks FurViewer for our own files without Maya or Max as it can import an FBX animated and I can get an iclone iAvatar in animated and textured but you need those plugins to create the areas of mesh with hair, they have tga maps but need a furproj file too.
some simple UI to create such a furproj file standalone would go a long way.
I can capture the result even with shadowplay as a mp4 render but a render integration with at least the Optix engine would help, Nvidia needs to realize this would help sell more cards to hobbyists not just pro Maya and Max users
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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like i said i got a little gpu render farm there. 6 gtx 780 ti. and do lots of tests using others gpu renders like indigo, and flurryball before buy octane, for me the best for quality/speed ,
i use iclone for character animation only( now with cc and my mudbox skills i am will start create characters too ) . all setup i do inside 3dmax .is my host 3d program. when i say is a really perfect and stunning combo. is cause, iclone for me is the more strong , intuitive and fast character animation tool i ever see( my opnion )
( i am cg enthusiast about 20 years ) and for me the octane is the more fast gpu render in the market ( my opnion ) so iclone /max/octane is a really explosive combo ( thx to 3d xchange )
can you post some animation from carrara and render time ?
go easy with me some times i express my self wrong cause my limitations with english .
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By wendyluvscatz - 11 Years Ago
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I think most would agree Max and other Autodesk products leave iClone for dead renderwise not just with Octane but iray, Mental ray etc as is the industry standard after all.
iClone for what it is is pretty good an affordable game engine based render engine which is why they added the Indigo plugin as it is recognized the renderer is not pro level.
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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wendyluvscatz (10/24/2015)
I think most would agree Max and other Autodesk products leave iClone for dead renderwise not just with Octane but iray, Mental ray etc as is the industry standard after all.
iClone for what it is is pretty good an affordable game engine based render engine which is why they added the Indigo plugin as it is recognized the renderer is not pro level.
like i already say iclone is wonderfull as character animation tool, camera work tool, now with CC simple put daz/genesis out of my pipeline. you try animate a character with biped set or cat set inside max ? is a pain in the ass....
for other side, u can use a easy and fast cat/max setup inside iclone ( thx again to 3d xchange ) edit motion layer tool now in iclone 6.2 is realling amazing, and like i said, if reallilusion put a better ambient oclusion and a fake GI like lumion or unreal engine the guys will start get nice renders using native engine for sure.
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By hattori kun - 11 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/23/2015)
the unique thing i am want hard is 3d xchange support softcloth animations to export via fbx. i already use apex cloth inside 3d max but the iclone soft cloth system is amazing easy and powerfull
I also requested soft cloth export in 3dxpipeline many times in Wishful Features thread. Add your vote there.
And to have camera export added to 3dx.
I'm using Iclone->3dxpipeline->Lightwave3D->Octane
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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hattori kun (10/24/2015)
wildstar (10/23/2015)
the unique thing i am want hard is 3d xchange support softcloth animations to export via fbx. i already use apex cloth inside 3d max but the iclone soft cloth system is amazing easy and powerfull
I also requested soft cloth export in 3dxpipeline many times in Wishful Features thread. Add your vote there. And to have camera export added to 3dx. I'm using Iclone->3dxpipeline->Lightwave3D->Octane
we have a similar workflow, can you add me on facebook ? Athos Rojas
if any of you guys want , add me on facebook plz. and go easy with my english :)
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By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/24/2015)
i use iclone for character animation only( now with cc and my mudbox skills i am will start create characters too ) . all setup i do inside 3dmax .is my host 3d program. when i say is a really perfect and stunning combo. is cause, iclone for me is the more strong , intuitive and fast character animation tool i ever see( my opnion )
( i am cg enthusiast about 20 years ) and for me the octane is the more fast gpu render in the market ( my opnion ) so iclone /max/octane is a really explosive combo ( thx to 3d xchange )
Agree with all of the above...
Now imagine
iClone direct applink with max...
Even better...
iClone with Octane REAL TIME INTERACTIVE viewport...
IClone scene will really explode, supernova scale
(btw your English is fine!) :)
can you post some animation from carrara and render time ?
Assuming you're addressing this question to me...
Some relevant OR4C videos
Genesis with fiber hair, Octane shader, 700 sample, 6 seconds rendered in 3 minutes
Another relevant hurdle is replicating rigged AND animating mesh
Wendy is the go-to person for epic scale OR4C crowd scene + replicators
It looks like we all seek similar holy grails
Good parametric rigs, good physics, efficient shader implementation
FIBER HAIR (or at least, BETTER IN-GAME TRANS MAP)
WYSIWYG process - even with plugin renderers
I'm in iClone for the well-done soft physics
IF CC Pipeline proves to be as good as Genesis pipeline
I would indeed moved the main staging area to iClone
And try to not miss Octane/ OR4C viewport
I can hack game render engine to look acceptable
so for now, I'm leaning towards fastest workflow instead of best render option
Still...
Every time I look at Carrara/ Daz Studio IRay user videos
I'm reminded that I'm trading off one set of semi-intuitive/ incomplete workflow for another
IF you know what I mean
Something tells me Wendy understands :)
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By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago
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wendyluvscatz (10/24/2015)
I think most would agree Max and other Autodesk products leave iClone for dead renderwise not just with Octane but iray, Mental ray etc as is the industry standard after all.
Right....Max/ Maya PREVIEW viewport in 2008 have better light cone than IClone 2015...
Totally different beasts...
iClone for what it is is pretty good an affordable game engine based render engine which is why they added the Indigo plugin as it is recognized the renderer is not pro level.
Indigo iClone render is not great but good enough to fix hair trans map issue
and solve reflection and shadow deficit typical of game engine render
IClone shader and light translation to Indigo, also well done overall
Problem... the un-intuitive, non-realtime preview
really poor animation file packing compiling loading
that renders it a time killer for even HOBBY animation users
Nevermind pro users with time budget
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By Kelleytoons - 11 Years Ago
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Bellatrix, I think you hit it on the head when you said something to the effect that we all have the same goals here -- I don't think it's a coincidence that so many folks have the same items on the wishlist. How much RL can do to that end is the only real question.
Obviously they want to sell more units of everything they make, so what they have to do is to balance what "sells" versus the time needed for development and support. Integrating third party tools like Indigo (which to this ignorant mind already supports far more products in a straightforward but completely unusable for animation manner) is easier than trying to spend time crafting custom solutions inside their own code. As a former programmer what I don't really understand is why they don't do the simple things.
Support for, say, exporting of the iClone camera in XChange is one of those things. From a programming standpoint this is trivial -- I can even kludge something using After Effects and Maxscript to the same effect in very few lines of code. They ought to be able to sell a TON more Pipeline XChange if they added this (heck, I'd pay them an extra $300 right now and I just bought the Pro version). This should also sell more licenced assets, again a win/win situation for them. How long has this been requested?
I'm an old (and I mean this in every sense of the word -- I was beta on the first 3DS Max version, called by a different name and running on an OS called DOS that many of you may never have heard of :>) Max user who left the program due to the inability to do character animation in any sort of managable fashion. iClone has everything I ever would have wanted in this regard, and right now the only thing it really misses (for me) is the ability to render as well as I could in Max. That's it. But jumping through hoops like trying to set up all my character animation in one program and my camera and scene animation in another, and exporting between the two, just isn't acceptable to me (to me -- you folks seem like you have it under control and more power to you). I want a single solution, or at least a less complicated one, so I'm going to stick strictly to iClone for now (although I'm still using Max for asset creation and rigging in many cases. Sigh). But I'll be glad to add my voice to any requests to make this Octane pipeline (or any other alternative pipeline) better, so just point me in the right direction (does Peter even *read* all of these threads?).
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By wendyluvscatz - 11 Years Ago
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While I certainly agree Octane integration would be awesome I wonder about price as many baulked at indigo and Octane not cheap, plugin + standalone needed, for me would just be another plugin so definately would jump at it.
I love what I can do in iC6 esp the soft physX
A pro renderer that does not take an eternity definately a bonus.
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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Octane render have a "There is no free lunch" fact and it is ... time to geometry copy from Ram to Vram.
setting a octane render scene is like setting a scene for a game engine
this is not bad in my case for example i work with archviz. after i set my scene for hyperrealistc render i can use the same scene already optimized inside any game engine.
i see you showing a fibermesh hair rendering. ( my last night was researching techiniques to make poligonal hair using hair and fur from max and i find it thx good )
fibermesh. hair and fur, "real hair plug ins " is useless for game engines. and for octane too , why ?
the time to process geometry to generate hair before start the real render is 2x or 3x more slow than the render in fact; last night i am optimize 3d max hair the maximum i can. at last after a real fight with hair and fur modifier
i got a descent hair with a descent time to process geometry inside octane ( instant render popup ) and was this result
but i always think big, ( i have big plans to make high quality shorts and 3d animated series using reallilusion tools ) and when i put 6 characters on the scene using the same hair
the time to copy geometry passed from instant popup to something like 30 seconds. a big animation like 30 minutes cant handle with that. good news? now i know how to make poligonal hair using max hair to make my own hair for iclone :) and my future shop :p instances are the solution.
game engines have nvidia hairworks ( a blessing for the goods to make realistic hair at low system resources )
in our case we use octane nvidia hairworks dont works ( not for me inside max, i can transform my hair and fur modifier to a nividia hairworks hair, to use in any game engine but i cant put back to max for using in octane :( lots of cry there )
the same for iclone or any game engine.. so start think big. and diferent. cpu renders solutions like fibermesh. hair and fur, are useless for gpu renders ( if u think to make something big like me ) but we always can find a way..
cheers ..
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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the same hair turned into a poligonal hair ( without texture and opacity maps yet ) now i go i want work
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By urbanlamb - 11 Years Ago
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I would love to see them us octane and make a plugin for iclone like they did with the indigo as octane is quite nice and is compatible with blender, 3dsmax and more it seems like a natural fit and a better fit then indigo.
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By Dreamcube017 - 11 Years Ago
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If they used Octane, they may even have a special version that you can purchase from RL's site that doesn't require the full standalone version, but you'd only be able to use it for iClone only. That'd be the only catch unless you can get everything you want animated into iClone.
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By wildstar - 11 Years Ago
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guys. guys , guys. i use octane inside 3d max i buyed octane render with octane plug in for 3dsmax. i got stuff out from iclone to max and back for iclone using 3d xchange.
i dont need a octane render plug in for iclone.( if this will be exist some day i really love it )
but in my opnion reallilusion. want first
1 - improve the native iclone render engine just putting a better AO and global ilumination ( making this iclone dont need more indigo octane or nothing cause the native render engine already rocks )
2 - 3d xchange support for softcloth export via fbx content .
3 - nvidia hairworks support for content creators like me.
4 - camera export and import via 3d xchange
5 - export and import content without triangulate ( the world outside iclone works in polys not triangles , triangles is for final products running inside game engines )
Iclone as game engine focused for animations physics simulations is the best tool on the market believe when i say that, just more people want to say that.
we want to generate better content using iclone to show ppl how iclone rocks - like the guys from tokomotion for example. Toei animation see how iclone is powerfull and start using it , is just a question of time
to ppl see that .
Cheers
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By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago
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wildstar (10/24/2015)but in my opnion reallilusion. want first
1 - improve the native iclone render engine just putting a better AO and global ilumination ( making this iclone dont need more indigo octane or nothing cause the native render engine already rocks )
2 - 3d xchange support for softcloth export via fbx content .
3 - nvidia hairworks support for content creators like me.
4 - camera export and import via 3d xchange
5 - export and import content without triangulate ( the world outside iclone works in polys not triangles , triangles is for final products running inside game engines )
Iclone as game engine focused for animations physics simulations is the best tool on the market believe when i say that, just more people want to say that.
we want to generate better content using iclone to show ppl how iclone rocks - like the guys from tokomotion for example. Toei animation see how iclone is powerfull and start using it , is just a question of time
to ppl see that .
Very valid overview, obviously well-researched.
(don't mind the passionate Vote Octane campaign, there's a plugin shortage around here) :)
I hear your point about fiber mesh "plugin" not so feasible for game engine.
I could do fiber hair in all my 3 main tools so far
Yet I have to resort to game-style trans map hair or manga hair
(Good hair renders have sold a zillion Daz Studio products, hello RL...hello $$$$$$$$$$)
Nvidia hairworks, yes please...
RL better do it before Daz Studio pull a PhysX Particles! Quick! ;)
And welcome to iClone forum btw.
Nice to see more Max users using iClone.
Nice to see more people willing to invest in good hardware to use iClone too.
So yes please keep making stunning videos to lure in more Autodesk users!
If CC Pipeline is what I think it is...
I will also recruit ZBrushers when the GoZ highway launches a new content creation era for RL
Back to the tedium of optimizing my assets for in game render... Cheers! :)
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By Bellatrix - 11 Years Ago
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Kelleytoons (10/24/2015)
Integrating third party tools like Indigo (which to this ignorant mind already supports far more products in a straightforward but completely unusable for animation manner) is easier than trying to spend time crafting custom solutions inside their own code. As a former programmer what I don't really understand is why they don't do the simple things.
Indeed. A puzzle that deserves its own discussion topic...
But jumping through hoops like trying to set up all my character animation in one program and my camera and scene animation in another, and exporting between the two, just isn't acceptable to me (to me -- you folks seem like you have it under control and more power to you). I want a single solution
LOL I too became a tool hopper not by choice...
If I could skin with just one swiss army knife I would
I've been away since iClone5.0 and returned a month ago
Like you I would settle for the most efficient workflow
I don't have other iCloner's patience to pack up my scene
export to 3DX to external renderer
Or export to 3DX to external tool to their plugin renderer (!!!)
As to the perma-requests not answered...
Development pace here feels slower than it really is
probably because forum PR is deemed a luxurious expenditure ;)
Indeed an ODD thing for either game forums or CG forums
Presence matters. If only to placate. PR101.
While waiting for iClone to achieve emerging economy status I taught myself ZBrush
...and hacked Carrara's antique-grade Bullet physics to make flowing skirts
These are not so special skills today...
Blender + free game engine revolution means CG education for the masses
IClone could get 10X larger user base
Users are no longer "noobs" vs "geeks"
Users are now "smart-noobs" or "demi-geeks".
The huge middle.
The buyer of plugins, the seller of content.
They R us. Including the "pro tool users" among us.
There is an under-tapped not-afraid-of-game-hacking gamer-generation user base
Millions of them, worldwide, pent up with creative energy
If given the right content creation tools
Well integrated plugins - in-house is fine, 3rd party, great
definitely a well-lit stage
Will generate a vibrant online content market bigger than Daz3D could ever dream...
And who knows, iCloneFlix network? ;)
We're almost there...almost...
RL looks like a nimble setup, so yeah I keep the faith :)
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By Kelleytoons - 11 Years Ago
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All good comments, Bellatrix.
I've been "away" since iClone 1 (LOL -- I actually bought IC5 but never even opened up the program ONCE. Silly me, too busy with 2D animation to get around to it). IC6 seems SO close to being what I've always wanted in a 3D animation program, just not quite. But it's getting more and more impressive and I'm hoping that the next year or so brings the few things I think are missing.
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By urbanlamb - 11 Years Ago
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Dreamcube017 (10/24/2015)
If they used Octane, they may even have a special version that you can purchase from RL's site that doesn't require the full standalone version, but you'd only be able to use it for iClone only. That'd be the only catch unless you can get everything you want animated into iClone.
I already own octane but it would be cool if they could create an iclone plugin as I stated for iclone similar to the indigo one in fact as I said it seems more of a natural fit then the indigo one does. At present I use the blender/octane version. I also own the indigo/iclone plugin and dont much like it I still prefer octane so basically in this case its money I should not have spent but it was on sale on special offer before iclone 6 launch so I didnt spend much on it so not a biggy. Its only proven to be not particularly useful. The point of an octane plugin for iclone would mean I would not have to pay for export license so it would be nice if we could do it. At the moment we are stuck with indigo if we are looking for something different. So it would be for me a huge plus for them to make such a plugin.
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