Character Creator Original Clothing : Solutions ?


https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic257732.aspx
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By Rampa - 4 Years Ago
Here's a pretty lengthy tutorial on Soft Cloth. It's showcasing a DAZ model, but it's the exact same method for the cloth of any model.


By Ardent Enterprise - 4 Years Ago
That helps clarify for me too ... Thank you.  I share Alon's desire to create custom clothes ... I was hoping to simplify the process by using the bases that are available for earlier gen characters, but apparently that is not happening with the CC's. I got into DAZ and iClone so I could spend more time storytelling and less time making and rigging models, hopefully the coming Pipeline will help. It would be good to have an approximate date, and some idea of what to expect with that.


By Rampa - 4 Years Ago
Apples and oranges Cricky. Wink That's a prop. But it is a good solution in some cases.
By Alon Dan - 4 Years Ago
Hello All,
Since I'm very new to iClone, Character Creator, 3DXchange I'm doing my best to learn from Video Tutorials and mostly from experimenting by doing stuff.
The next issue I'm trying to understand is related to cloth in iClone, Hopefully I can get some help in this:

What I'm trying to do:
So I have my CC character finished and I'm happy with it, now it's time to put some clothes on it!
For what I want to accomplish, forget about the library and presets that came with CC + Essentials (which are amazing BTW), I want to go in a more dynamic way and CREATE MY OWN cloth designs for my character.
I can model the basic shape of the cloth based on the character's final shape, bring it to 3DXchange... but here starts the confusion of what's next?


Things I'm not sure how they are working and if possible to accomplish by myself in iClone:
If I drag and drop any of the CC library's cloth on the character it's calculating the best to fit to the character which seems like MAGIC! but as I described above I want to make my own Cloth Design and use it on my character, let's say a Hoodie for example.

1 - Is there a way to make this Hoodie which I can model by myself and export from 3DXchange to do this "MAGIC automatic fit" to all the CC characters?   I would like to understand how it works and if possible it will be great to learn!

2 - If it's not possible to do the automatic-fit from my very own Cloth Model, How can I still make it work on a specific character? how do I make the hoodie to not fall from the character.
I'm guessing it's up to the weight maps inside iClone based on the UV mapping (photoshop for black & white) but I still don't understand exactly the all process before I even get to the setup of the weights...

3 - But what makes part of the cloth to "fall down" and how do I "stick" other part of the cloth to the character's body?
Do I make the cloth as an extra part of the character inside 3DXchange first?  do I need to parent it somehow?
I'll be happy to understand how to make this from START to FINISH, a good explanation or a video tutorial to show how I can make my very own Cloth Model from 3DXchange to.... what's next, until it's actually works in iClone.

As you can see, even though I understand the basics of clothing and weight maps, I'm still confused about the all process from the beginning.
This may be simple for you guys who already have experienced with this so I would love to get any help to understand it so I'll be able to design my very own not-typical clothing for my characters.

Sorry about my bad English and thanks ahead! Smile
By Bellatrix - 4 Years Ago
Hi Alon
Your English is more than good enough so no worries

I'll keep it short and simple...

Custom conforming clothing is only possible for CC characters. For now.
But the mechanism is not yet ready. As mentioned, will be possible with CC Pipeline.
IClone community hasn't receive any official guideline on CC-specific clothing creation
So just model clothes against your CC's general body shape for now
Don't worry about skeleton in Blender
No point in importing clothing mesh via 3DX also
Focus on good UV mapping
Prepare it for CC auto-conforming once it's ready

Hope that puts things in clearer perspective...

And welcome to the forum Smile
By Alon Dan - 4 Years Ago

LOL I posted my reply to you as you're posting this
Anyway
So, yes, do explore the soft physics
IClone6's (very well implemented) soft body physics clothing and hair is the main reason I came back here Smile 

LOL! yes I saw your reply after I post mine it was cool and funny! BigGrin
Yup, I've seen these videos, but the problem is that they are not covering or explain how to create and control the Dummy Arrows so... I'm still a bit in the dark related to this curious "theory" of mine.
BTW - by contol the Dummy Arrows, I mean setting them up on a new .OBJ  (animating them is simple as any prop).

I'm still trying to understand how to do this.
By Alon Dan - 4 Years Ago
Thanks Rampa!
Actually I've already watched this tutorial (very helpful!) but it's different when it comes from Daz3D to what I'm trying to do from scratch, since it's mainly focus on the weight maps (grayscale) which is the easy part to understand in my opinion.
I still have no clue how to accomplish what I've describe on my first (too long) post, but from your early answer I understand it is impossible to do (without Daz3D) for an original cloth-model I made.

I hope that the awesome Reallusion developers will make a user-friendly tool for this purpose soon, maybe CC pipeline will be the answer... I have no idea. Smile
By Bellatrix - 4 Years Ago
Alon Dan (10/17/2015)
I didn't know about CC Pipeline until you guys mentioned it in the post few times, so now I'm very curious if anyone (RL team?) knows if it's going to be released in the next couple of months or during 2016?

No confirmed dates... Rumor is, "soon"! Wink
Any time from next week to end of year is possible...

There're other ways to dress CC using soft body physics clothing
Import them as props and then attach to characters
Can be tedious though unless you're already familiar with collision and cloth physics
No harm playing around though Smile
Cheers






By Cricky - 4 Years Ago
rampa (10/17/2015)
Apples and oranges Cricky. Wink That's a prop. But it is a good solution in some cases.


I won't argue with ignorance.  
By Alon Dan - 4 Years Ago
rampa (10/16/2015)
The specs for doing it have not been released yet. Currently, you could only do this with a non-standard character. That means no auto-fitting or further editing in CC. It would be akin to converting a DAZ model.

The clothing needs to be rigged and weighted just like the body mesh. The "falling down" part is the physics, and it is controlled by a grayscale map that indicates which part follows the rigging, and which part follows the physics.

We are expecting a CC "Pipeline" version at some point that will make importing clothing for the CC possible.


Thank you for replying, I appreciate it! Smile
I guess there is no solution to my clothing problems now... and that's kind of bad news for me, but if the CC Pipeline version is going to be released soon.... that will become good news for all.

About the weight maps (grayscale) I thought it only changes the amount of cloth affect, and not the physical (gravity) of specific parts of the cloth so I'm still not sure if I got how to control both in specific areas of an original cloth design.

By Ardent Enterprise - 4 Years Ago
I'm with you ... I too want to create clothing for CC models that I have developed. It was disappointing for me to purchase the bundle and then see that it only had a few styles of clothing, though good, they are not bases that I can utilize to build my own costumes with. I have a discussion going with another member ... this is my main issue, and there are some suggestions under that thread. Good luck and I will continue to follow this thread ... though so far it is hard for me to make sense of the questions and answers, but I understand your frustration and I do hope there will be a good solution before too long.
By Cricky - 4 Years Ago
rampa (10/17/2015)

Back to clothing:

If you want to clothe your avatars in your own clothing, you need to rig and weight the clothing. I'm hoping the CC Pipeline will have a feature to transfer vertex group and weight information from the avatar to the clothing. I know Blender (and the expensive programs) have this capability.


This is not necessarily true.  You can in fact weight map a cloth inside iClone to make it work, whether it is externally skinned or not.  This cloth seen here has no Rigging or external weighing of cloth done to it before import.  No pipeline needed.

It just takes a bit of patience and trials to do it.  

We just don't want to steer people in the wrong direction with unsubstantiated statements, do we?






Contrary to what you may have heard or read.

The KEY is in the reading and understanding of the UV.  The UV shown here is actually upside down, which you will find does happen on a lot of models.. but it started as a prop and was "attached" as an accessory to the Character Creator model shown.  

So I'll repeat the title of this video clip:  "No External Weights or Skinning Required for CC Accessories"
By Rampa - 4 Years Ago
Your going to need a skeleton (armature) to rig/weight the pants to. An OBJ does not have a skeleton. You can use any biped FBX model with a skeleton with enough bones to characterize in 3DXChange Pro. I've made avatars with Makehuman and Blender before.

These will be non-standard avatars, and will not have "magic" conforming clothing, nor will they be editable in the Character Creator.

If you download the demo version of 3DXchange Pipeline, it will allow 15 exports, and be usable for 30 days. You could export a CC character as an FBX using the that way. Then you could import that FBX into Blender to rig/weight your clothing.
By Bellatrix - 4 Years Ago
Momma NaNa (10/17/2015)
That helps clarify for me too ... Thank you.  I share Alon's desire to create custom clothes ... I was hoping to simplify the process by using the bases that are available for earlier gen characters, but apparently that is not happening with the CC's. I got into DAZ and iClone so I could spend more time storytelling and less time making and rigging models


Hmm think we need a new label for this "iClone automatic conforming clothing"...
for ease of communication
iAutofit? iFit? lol
Anyway...
Most people can't wait to find out the details on CC Pipeline
Will there be some basic rigging involved?
Will it be even more automated than Daz Studio Autofit?
Etc etc...
In the mean time... If you need clothing fast
But still prefer some dynamics
you can also add dynamic movements to earlier gens clothing
by giving them soft body weight maps
G5 has tons of clothing for modification
G6 also has some clothing products in the marketplace
Lots of options...
Cheers

By Kelleytoons - 4 Years Ago
In XChange you can actually set whatever elements you want to use cloth or hair physics.

https://forum.reallusion.com/251133/What%E2%80%99s-new-in-3DXchange-62
By Alon Dan - 4 Years Ago
sw00000p (10/17/2015)
Alon Dan (10/16/2015)
[quote]rampa (10/16/2015)
I guess there is no solution to my clothing problems now...

Warning: "If you try what I suggest.... You will KICK yourself for not trying this sooner!"
There IS a way to accomplish.... EXACTLY what you desire.... RIGHT NOW!
FREE, Too!

Prerequisite: (Stop trying to do.... automatic this.... automatic that!)

Fact: Reallusion GAVE you CC.... which produces awesome content.
Next: <Attach Your CUSTOM CLOTH>

By your own admission, YOU CAN create custom cloth (99% DONE).... You just don't know it! w00t
This seems "SCARY" at first, but it is simple to do.

1 Use ANY FREE external modeler.. i.e. BLENDER
2. CLONE THE MESH (Now PRACTICE... THIS)

Non-Uniform Scale: your custom mesh onto the CC mesh.
....what this means is....
When you scale (Globally)..... you are scaling an object on all 3 axis's... at ONCE (X,Y,Z)
Non-Uniform Scale: ( PICK ONE or TWO AXIS'S)  and scale.

Example:
Take you BEAUTIFUL COSTOM MESH and scale (X and Y) first.
Now, Scale (Z).... in SMALL increments.

Result: A COMPLETE MESS!
BUT.... you just scaled on 2 axis'.

So....Now that you got your feet wiet....
ZOOM IN and "MAKE you custom mesh FIT the CC Mesh!

Result: (with a little practice.... 5 MINUTES TOPS)
POOF!
You can now make ANY mesh fit CC!w00tw00tw00tw00tw00tw00tw00tw00t


NICE!!! Well, you bring back hope to me and that's cool!
So... I'm trying to follow your instructions, (I can also blame my bad English but I try my best to understand).

For learning purposes I've created a very basic CC female character for the cloth experiment.
First, I've exported it via 3DXchange to  .OBJ  Imported the naked CC female model to Blender. 
In Blender:
1. I've selected the part I want to create the ugly pants (real fast rough selection nothing special). 
2. I duplicated the selection of the Pants so I'll have a different Pants Object to play with. (the model is only for reference anyway) and I start Sculpting to oversize the pants so they will get a different shape, and to be a bit bigger than the body.

I double checked if any of the pants vertices are not touching the original body model, so far so good.

Now... I guess I'm ready to get back to 3DXchange, right?  
oh wait... before I do that, maybe I need to re-make a UV for the pants (I never liked UV, but it shouldn't be complicated) I understand I need these for the Grayscale weight maps settings inside iClone...  
OK, so let's say I have the UV's and I export .OBJ of the manipulated ugly pants to 3DXchange....
Do I need to set or change something in 3DXchange before I export it as iAvatar? 

Sorry for the massive confusion, I'm not even close to the rest of what you explained, but I'm trying to understand... it's hard for me if I don't see visual step-by-step like in video tutorials because of my bad English, but I really appreciate you're trying to help me so thank you very much for your patience with me! Smile

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/74b9f6d4-97e9-46bf-b468-9d3c.png
By Alon Dan - 4 Years Ago
Personally, I like creating my own original style and designs if it's characters, cloth, props or anything I can create.
I only use iClone for few days (not even a week) and I'm learning as experimenting and watching tutorials, also lots of help from this amazing community!
I think Reallusion making an amazing job considering a 2D Animator like myself accomplish stuff which probably will take me weeks or months in any normal 3D software. If you ask me... Realtime + Animation is true magic! Smile

Back to the Clothing subject:
I'm still trying some "ideas" and trying to be very creative with the tools I have inside iClone and 3DXchange, but it is not as simple as I would like it to be consider I'm still learning the software, and also I understand it is not possible to do yet with the current tools. 

EXPERIMENT TIME:
On the content under: Props > Cloth Template_Pin
We have few presets of cloth with "Dummy Arrows" which can be moved and change the cloth, I've played with it and was able to make a Cape real easy by linking the dummies to the shoulder of the character... it's not perfect but it works.

THIS IS MY 
(stupid but creative)  IDEA:
So... based on these Dummy Arrows (Pins)...  here is the recipe I want you to help me COOK: (because I don't know how)
1 - I can create a simple .OBJ in the shape I want + UV (for Grayscale weight mapping) as the original cloth.
2 - If I can CREATE my own Dummy Arrows (Pins) and decide where each one will be placed on this .OBJ (the cloth)
I said "IF" because I don't know how to create these, and if it's possible at all... iClone? 3DXchange? how do I make them, position them (rig the cloth basically).  if you can explain this or EVEN BETTER show a video-tutorial how it's done, we may get into something very creative here! just bear with me... Wink
3 - Basically If I can create a soft-cloth from a basic .OBJ, put the pins on specific parts of it, add as many pins as I need, placing them whenever I need...  than LINK to the bones that make sense on the CC character (like I did with the cape)
The Result will be: ORIGINAL CLOTH DESIGN!

What I describe above is only a theory from my point of vew, Please remember I may be creative but I'm only using iClone for few days now... so I may sound very stupid... at least I'm trying to accomplish what my insane brain tells me Smile

Now... after you read my idea, if it's possible... let's make this thread and try be creative as possible with what we got.
Also please explain, show short video tutorials if possible... we all need to learn somehow especially beginners like myself who don't know much yet.

Again, sorry about my bad English... hope you understand.

By Alon Dan - 4 Years Ago
WOW! Cricky first of all THANK YOU! BigGrin
Your video sure inspired me and I have a feeling that more people are very interested in this!
What you've shown in the video is very impressive and useful especially if it works on any cloth design (such as a rope / hoodie / cape / whatever). I'm not sure how to deal with it yet but... looks like it works! Smile
I have no idea how you setup the cloth with the CC character exactly, even after I read carefully and it may be very simple if I had more experience in iClone and 3DXchange... unfortunately I'm still a noob and I can also blame my bad English for not understanding the all process from start to end. 

So let's see if I understood at least some of it, ok?
1 - Blender > Model the cloth I want, Wrap a 2 sides (front-back) UV map and Export as .OBJ file.
2 - 3DXchange > export to .iAvatar file or Send to iClone.
3 - Inside iClone > Attach the cloth to the CC character's desire bone (I'm not completely sure how it works but I guess it's similar to Linking)
4 - Make the Cloth > Soft Cloth in the Physics tab.
5 - Start playing around with the settings until I'm happy with the result?  
(also playing in Photoshop / Gimp on the Grayscale weight mapping of course)

Am I close to understand it?  or I'm missing something... ?  feel free to correct me or help in any way... I would like to experiment this by myself but I don't know if I'm on the right direction at all or waaay off.

Sorry for my bad English, and Thanks ahead! Smile
By Rampa - 4 Years Ago
The specs for doing it have not been released yet. Currently, you could only do this with a non-standard character. That means no auto-fitting or further editing in CC. It would be akin to converting a DAZ model.

The clothing needs to be rigged and weighted just like the body mesh. The "falling down" part is the physics, and it is controlled by a grayscale map that indicates which part follows the rigging, and which part follows the physics.

We are expecting a CC "Pipeline" version at some point that will make importing clothing for the CC possible.
By Alon Dan - 4 Years Ago
Thank you Bellatrix, you are very kind! Smile
I Understand much better now, so once CC Pipeline will be released it will be much user-friendly and easier process to design clothes that will fit to CC characters, that's great!

I didn't know about CC Pipeline until you guys mentioned it in the post few times, so now I'm very curious if anyone (RL team?) knows if it's going to be released in the next couple of months or during 2016?
The reason I'm asking about the release date is because of  my current project, it could be extremely helpful.
By Rampa - 4 Years Ago
Those arrows are a complete mystery. I cannot find anything about vertex pinning in PhysX.

The method we do know is to use a grayscale map where black is "pinned" and white is physics. You can use this on non-rigged cloth like the cape, but it does not allow setting separate points to separate bones of the avatar.

I've been curious about the pinning for a while. It is not explained by RL.

IClone 5 had a different physics system (bullet) that did use pins, but the pins in iC6 are running in PhysX.

Back to clothing:

If you want to clothe your avatars in your own clothing, you need to rig and weight the clothing. I'm hoping the CC Pipeline will have a feature to transfer vertex group and weight information from the avatar to the clothing. I know Blender (and the expensive programs) have this capability.
By Alon Dan - 4 Years Ago
rampa (10/17/2015)
Your going to need a skeleton (armature) to rig/weight the pants to. An OBJ does not have a skeleton. You can use any biped FBX model with a skeleton with enough bones to characterize in 3DXChange Pro. I've made avatars with Makehuman and Blender before.

These will be non-standard avatars, and will not have "magic" conforming clothing, nor will they be editable in the Character Creator.


Thanks Rampa!
Do I have to use a full-CC skeleton (armature) or only the bones for the pants part (hips & legs).
I have no idea how to bring the skeleton from the CC model, because when I tried .FBX to Blender the scene looked like a total mess with lots of nulls all over the place, the armature looked wierd and the model itself was flipped on the floor hehe... that's why I used OBJ... but as you said, that means no skeleton included. Sad

So basically, if the pants will use skeleton it will count as a character itself right?  sounds complicated but I'm trying to follow and understand how it works so I can make it work.
I didn't gave up on this yet but I'm starting to think that it is very complicated to accomplish, and this is just simple ugly pants... what I really want to do (once I'll make sure it works) is much more complicated than typical pants or shirts.

By Bellatrix - 4 Years Ago
Alon Dan (10/17/2015)

THIS IS MY 
(stupid but creative)  IDEA:
So... based on these Dummy Arrows (Pins)...  here is the recipe I want you to help me COOK: (because I don't know how)
1 - I can create a simple .OBJ in the shape I want + UV (for Grayscale weight mapping) as the original cloth.
2 - If I can CREATE my own Dummy Arrows (Pins) and decide where each one will be placed on this .OBJ (the cloth)
I said "IF" because I don't know how to create these, and if it's possible at all... iClone? 3DXchange? how do I make them, position them (rig the cloth basically).  if you can explain this or EVEN BETTER show a video-tutorial how it's done, we may get into something very creative here! just bear with me... Wink
3 - Basically If I can create a soft-cloth from a basic .OBJ, put the pins on specific parts of it, add as many pins as I need, placing them whenever I need...  than LINK to the bones that make sense on the CC character (like I did with the cape)
The Result will be: ORIGINAL CLOTH DESIGN


LOL I posted my reply to you as you're posting this
Anyway
So, yes, do explore the soft physics
IClone6's (very well implemented) soft body physics clothing and hair is the main reason I came back here Smile

You've probably seen these already, but just in case...