Make the internal fps MATCH the render imaged


https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic216307.aspx 		Print Topic | Close Window

By hattori kun - 10 Years Ago
Make the internal fps MATCH the image render fps.
For example
With project settings of 2400 fps it should render 2400 images/png, etc(multilayered exrs request)
Currently it renders only half. Always half of 60fps which I assume is the internal fps in Iclone.
I think this is problematic when creating animations and trying to adhere to a lot of variables outside of Iclone.

We can adjust the fps of avi(though I haven't checked if the output is correct,too)
But I don't use avi as a final output, always image sequence for editing in post.
By pumeco - 10 Years Ago

+1 For this request, the current system isn't ideal for those wanting to work at other frame rates even though other frame rates can be set. I prefer to work in 24p, so when I'm using the timeline it's expected that the format displayed matches that of the project.

Example, a 24p project should be displayed in H:M:S:F format and the counter should run at 24 frames per second. It would be cool to be able to set these things in the project settings and perhaps be able to change the display format as an option in the timeline.
By animagic - 10 Years Ago
I'm not against this, but I would like this to be a user option, as I prefer the internal frame rate to remain at 60 fps.

One reason is compatibility with existing projects, because where would keyframes end up, for example, if the internal frame rate is adjusted.

Another reason is that motion clips most likely have a fixed frame rate of 60 fps, so changing the internal frame rate would require interpolation on the fly rather than it render time. This may cause some performance issues in preview.

Other than that: go for it!

EDIT: BTW, it has been promised that the frame rate will be made adjustable for image sequences in the next patch. This option was removed in error.... I also work almost exclusively with image sequences but 30 fps is OK for me.

By hattori kun - 10 Years Ago
I think I phrased this backwards.

Make the rendered image fps match the project setting fps(60) so that the images rendered saved to hd are not half of the actual frames in the project settings.

I think this is a bug anyway. Project settings 1000 frames but Iclone renders it by nth frame=2, kipping every frame so you only get 500 files.
By animagic - 10 Years Ago
As has been explained elsewhere, this is not a bug, but by design. Internally, frames are spaced at 60 fps.

I am not against having an OPTION for the user to make rendered and timeline frame rate the same, but it should be an option.

There is a number of reasons why I find it impractical. I have many projects that include a combination of clips and keyframes. The keyframes are placed on a 60 fps grid, so I would not want to change that.

However, I should be able to render the project to any frame rate. Currently (at least for AVI and image sequences), the same project can be used for a 30 fps, 25 fps, or a 24 fps cinematic version even. Or for special effects I can render at 15fps or even 60 fps (IC5 only right now).

So my suggestion is, make it an option for those who want timeline and render frame rate coupled, but keep the current situation as an option for those who prefer that.

By hattori kun - 10 Years Ago
I think you misunderstand the request.
The number of images rendered has nothing to do with the final fps in reality.
You adjust the framerate in the app your comping your files into like aftereffects, etc. If you rendered 300 frames it doesn't mean it is strictly 30fps. You can use it in any other fps you chose.

The big issue for people who render in frames is the project keyframe doesn''t match the images rendered.
Its unheard of to animate in any app to have a set timeline and have a different number of frames rendered. Unless you render in nth frame which is not done at all for finals.
How would you work on a project with 100 frames and then in frame 30 the director specifically says you hit a pose or this light comes out? You render it out in frames and discover that frame 30 is NOT that pose because Iclone rendered in nth frame.

I know some guys don't usually render to images and have not had this issue because they render to avi. Render to avi doesn't have this issue because it already tries to adjust itself to the time and duration rather than the frame.
By hattori kun - 10 Years Ago
Btw the request to match rendered images to the number of keyframe in project settings doesn't affect any motion data or animation data or the internal fps in Iclone. Nothing to worry about there. Its simply rendering out the images according to the number of keyframe set in the project setting. It won't affect render to avi either. Its just 1 is to 1 match when Iclone is rendering each keyframe in the project timeline.
By animagic - 10 Years Ago
I always render to image sequences. If I export at 30 fps, I get 30 frames for one second. So I guess I don't really see what the problem is. When I import into Vegas it is interpreted at 30 fps because that's what I tell it is.

I'm trying to understand, really...:unsure:

OK, let me see if I understand your scenario.

Say, your project length is 500 and you have 25 fps, so your project length is 20 seconds. The timeline would need to be adjusted accordingly, so it would show 25 frames for each second. Yu would then have "25" at time 1:00, "50" at time 2:00, etc. Is that they idea? 

By hattori kun - 10 Years Ago
The wording and title needs to change :D Really sorry about that its become confusing.
I don't wan't to mess up the internal fps of Iclone or self adjusting timeline, that's a lot of work for RL and will break legacy stuff.
I want a 1 is to 1 match of the project settings with whatever will be rendered on the hardrive. Just like moving the timeline frame by frame and pressing printscreen :D

Here's the issue.
Iclone renders only half of whatever is set on the project setting length.



Screengrabs explanation
1. Set length to 300 frames.

2. Character with frame 0 to 30 keys with a hold key at 30 so he won't move. At frame 31 he starts to reach up to frame 45 where he stops reaching.

3. Render it to frames images to harddisk. Fps doesn't matter here either when dealing with images. It shouldn't. It should just render whatever is on the timeline 1 is to 1 match.

4. Check the images. Instead of the hold keys from 0-30, the hold key is from 0-15. Instead of moving from 31-45, he moves from 16-23(no 22.5 ofcourse)
Iclone is basically rendering in nth frame=2.

Again this has nothing to do with Iclone fps. I can work with 300 frames and animate in 15 or 24 or 30,etc fps but what I key in the timeline should be the exact thing rendered into images. Or else the timeline is not accurate and incorrectly used.

This is considered a bug imo. Maybe there's a way to let Iclone render it exactly as the number of frames in the timeline I just don't know it yet. If there is that would be great to know.

By prabhatM - 10 Years Ago
Now try to get a 25FPS animation of the duration "20 sec" or "500 RENDERED frames" from ICLONE.

Set a PROJECT for that.

Please discuss after rendering.
By hattori kun - 10 Years Ago
This user encountered the issue with his muzzle flash not being rendered because Iclone would render nth frame = 2 :D


https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic223248-36-1.aspx
-Because the render is based on 30 fps and the project in 60fps , a one frame muzzle flash for exemple , is not rendered if it lights on on impaired frame.



Iclone should just render images to harddisk wysiwyg in the timeline.
By prabhatM - 10 Years Ago
True. I use a single frame for the muzzle flash in hitfilm.
Imagine doing that on a single frame in ICLONE !
Probability of your gun firing in ICLONE is 50:50: !!:w00t:

===

A year back, I raised this point ( Frame Rate ), but NOBODY from RL offered a reply / explanation / suggestion. Now a few newcomers have again raised this point. I am glad. I believe the old timers are happy with their 30FPS video / image sequence rendering. We in the PAL world need to wait for a solution.

@hattori

While rendering an image sequence, please stop it ( presuming some computer breakdown at frame 200). Now RESTART the rendering to the SAME DIRECTORY from the frame that was last rendered. Define the new frame range(201-500) to render. See if you face any issues?
By animagic - 10 Years Ago
As an "old-timer" I think there continues to be a misunderstanding about "old-timers"... 

I am not going to reiterate why iClone has an internal frame rate of 60 fps. That should be obvious by now. Motion clips are stored at 60 fps. MOCAP files often even have a higher fps; some of the CMU files I have seen have 120 fps.

So the internal frame rate is there for a reason and could even be higher to have better fidelity. RL decided to make the frame rate shown in the time line equal to the internal frame rate. This has led to confusion, apparently.

Now for those that find that problematic, I suggest to provide an option so that the internal frame rate is hidden and that the time resolution is equal to the rendered output. That should make everybody happy. So make it an option, and we can put this debate finally to rest.

One caveat: the coupling will mess up your keyframes if you decide to change your render fps. Also, obviously, a frame is no longer a universally defined time slice. 

Now about rendering sequences, it would indeed be useful to be able to set the number of the first frame of a sequence to something other than "0" in order to be able to re-render a section without having to renumber the image files.

By hattori kun - 10 Years Ago
prabhatM (2/5/2015)
@hattori

While rendering an image sequence, please stop it ( presuming some computer breakdown at frame 200). Now RESTART the rendering to the SAME DIRECTORY from the frame that was last rendered. Define the new frame range(201-500) to render. See if you face any issues?



Oh wow!! Why is Iclone rendering frames that way???? Its renamed the sequence to start with _00000 even though that portion is in the middle of the timeline. The timeline is really not useful for reference at all for animation. If you had a keyframed event in frame 100, it will be renamed _0000:w00t:. Besides the fact that frame 100 is actually frame 50 saved in harddisk because of this nth=2 frame bug, which was the main issue. Now to find out Iclone names sequences this way. How disappointing to find this out now. This is a serious flaw.
This leads me to believe that Iclone is really geared towards rendering straight to videos, which is bad.


@animagic - I'm not really concerned with internal fps now. I'm more concerned about getting the images rendered to exactly match the timeline and not skip any frames, and making that timeline useful. Anything you do in the timeline now is not accurate. As been shown some odd frames will be skipped. Those odd frames could contain a muzzle flash, an event, etc and could be completely missed by Iclone when rendered to images on hd.
By prabhatM - 10 Years Ago
hattori kun (2/7/2015)
prabhatM (2/5/2015)
@hattori

While rendering an image sequence, please stop it ( presuming some computer breakdown at frame 200). Now RESTART the rendering to the SAME DIRECTORY from the frame that was last rendered. Define the new frame range(201-500) to render. See if you face any issues?



Oh wow!! Why is Iclone rendering frames that way???? Its renamed the sequence to start with _00000 even though that portion is in the middle of the timeline. This is a serious flaw.


How serious is this ? Will they OVERWRITE the earlier images ?

Now think for a moment. The guy in the night shift rendered like this, Another guy in the morning shift takes the rendered images through FEW BATCH PROCESSING IN PHOTOSHOP and later dumped in another directory for the NLE guy to pick up for the compositing. They are composited and passed on for the music rendering, who knows even mastered ! After all we are always under tremendous pressure to deliver !

Imagine the users around the world doing the similar mistakes and wasting time to correct them !

What does RL need to do ? Just 3 lines of EXTRA CODE !

While testing ICLONE 5.5, 12-14 months back I listed out all these issues and explained how this could create problem in a busy production environment. I also predicted this WOULD NOT BE CORRECTED because RL programmers think it to a be a VERY MINOR AND LOW PRIORITY CHANGE REQUEST while the star programmers would be busy with more excoting grapgic programming. Now I see ny prediction was correct. They have not corrected.

As I see ICLONE 6 is not an overhauled ICLONE as we would believe it to be. It just a line extension. It has inherited many WEAKNESSES of ICLONE 5 and added a few of its own.

If you guys pitch to RL, I hope they take note of it.
By Dragonskunk - 10 Years Ago
I also was frustrated to discover this fixed frame rate. I traditionally animate at 24 frames per second because of the timing and how easy you can divide 24 into 2, 4, 6, 8, 12 to easily measure beats, half seconds, quarter, etc.

MOCAPs are set at 30fps but they can be retimed to the users setting, Poser doesn't have any problem with their MOCAP's when you change the frame rate. As opposed to unwanted frame blending of improperly dividable frame rates, I need a frame rate that I am comfortable with. I want native rates and render rates of my choosing.

Does Reallusion not appreciate the significance of frame rates when it comes to animation? If I found out about this when I started I would have never known anything about iClone simply because I would have deleted out of my PC as garbage.

Till iClone changes this essential and necessary adjustment I cannot endorse this product or give my financial contribution to it. In fact people new to this place need to be warned of this major shortcoming before anything else. I am certain that many are and will be turned off by this.

There was a thread dating back to pre iC 6 saying that "a fixed FPS was not a bug to fix" that is correct, it is actually a narrow mindedness from the makers of iClone. Any significant animation software has a setting for a frame rate because it matters. Unless iclone wants to be a toy maker and not a true animation software, then don't change a thing.
By hattori kun - 10 Years Ago
Another issue is possibly with the indigo exporter.
If Iclone is based on 60fps and you have a frame in the timeline that was skipped by Iclone because rendering images is rendered nth = 2, this could happen in the indigo exporter as well.
I don't have indigo yet so can't tell if the indigo exporter does an nth = 2 but if it actually exports 1 is to 1 from the timeline then that means its the Iclone internal renderer that has a bug. :D
By hattori kun - 10 Years Ago
I got Iclone indigo for valentines from the boss, not the boss that employs me. The other boss :D

So it turns out that if you have a timeline of 100 frames and you set indigo to 60 fps. You will get 100 frames exported exactly. Big surprise there though I haven't rendered it to see if the frames are just duplicates. So it is possible to get what you see in the timeline exported out from Iclone exactly the same frame count. Not half!
I tried exporting at 15 fps but didn't work. I got 50 frames from the 100 frame timeline so it defaulted to nth = 2. So something fishy is going on.
By jamie3d - 10 Years Ago
I agree 1-1 timeline frame to render frame would be good!
today is my first day with the software, my work around has been to set the view frame counter to show time, I then know that if I plan to output at 25fps that 1second will be my 25 frames. 4 seconds will be 100 frames etc.

Not ideal!