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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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My first hint:
The "HumanIK" skeleton can be mapped using the HumanIK setting in 3DXchange.
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By animagic - 12 Years Ago
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Yes, that works well. It's funny though that the provided HumanIK T-pose does not work correctly: the figure gets all twisted.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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I was going to play with this last night , ended up arguing instead...
How far have you got with the facial bones .?
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By GrannyJ - 12 Years Ago
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I have found using the "basic.json" rig with 73 bones (including jaw bone) gives me a better result than the "humanik.json", especially if you want to use the facial puppeteering panel in iClone. Even though you have to map the bones individually, it moves right along & funtions well once imported into iClone. I did find that if you don't want the character to go "wonky" in iClone, you must manually adjust the characters T-pose in 3dXchange first (unclick the "active" box in the bone mapping panel, adjust the bones to reflect a true T-pose, then click the "active" box, then convert) to accurately reflect the iClone T-pose, then you don't get the "twisted wonkiness" when brought into iClone. You can also take an extra step & import the Make Human fbx into 3dsmax and replace the rig with the G5 rig, then you can export directly as a G5 avatar instead of non-standard human (but it seems to be easier to just create the character in 3ds max altogether if you have that SW & are familiar with the process & want G5 versus non-standard). You can use the "Make Target" to bring .obj items made in zbrush, mudbox, blender, etc., into Make Human.... just make sure you have previous aligned them to the proper axis. This is just what I have found that works - it may not be optimum for everyone, but seems to work the best for me.... If any of y'all have found better methodologies, please share! Knowledge is always a beautiful thing! Have a super day, everyone :D
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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It seems that the in-built weighting of the mesh does not lend itself well to a male t-pose. The topology shift when the Male/Female slider is used causes enough change that the armpits need re-weighting.
This seems to hold true for either the high-resolution mesh, or one of the topologies.
Here's my "Fire Fairy" that I'll be releasing soon. Just finishing up some visemes.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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How are you re doing your weights ? And have you usd the new facial rig with this character.
Cheers
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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For females, I find I don't need to re-weight anything. I have not tried to fix a male weighting yet, as it's not something I really want to deal with.
I am using the new face rig. It's alpha, so it's a bit wonky. It also feels "different-to-be-different". For instance, the eyebrow bones are connected sequentially from the outside in. The jaw and chin don't have a common parent just to themselves, so opening the mouth is a two bone rotation affair (and the bones are crooked to another, for added joy! :P )
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By planetstardragon - 12 Years Ago
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I'm developing a work flow with make human, carrara and poser as we speak.
my hint contribution to the thread - do the rigging step, then open the jaw just a little bit, when you convert - it will save the jaw in that pose, export the obj with the open jaw to make your own viseme face morphs.
rampa, your character reminds me of a race in gw2, the sylvari - if you ever need inspiration for new character ideas, google images: guildwars2 - really cool stuff, and they have so much armor and diversity, it's mind boggling! - some of the best artists in the biz :)
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Exporting your model to Blender via MHX is quite useful. My fire fairy is a dual-layer avatar. It makes the face count of the body double, but it allows for way more than using the "Blend" channel. In fact, you get all the channels, so you get "decals" with normals, opacities, etc. And the blend too if you want.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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@Rampa
What do you mean by duel layered ?
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Just like the body suits that other developers have made. So if you cut a hole using opacity in the "outer" skin, the "inner" skin is visible through that hole.
Basically it's a clothing layer that is identical to the body layer. 3DXchange and iClone know how to layer these, even though the mesh is perfectly overlapping.
Not sure how many layers you can have, but I'm stopping at two for the body so the poly-count doesn't get rediculous. More than two skin layers is probably not very useful either.
Clothing would be additional layers, albeit, offset from the character mesh.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Ha right think I get it ..
Anyone else having neck issues ? just not looking right ?
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Blender will be your best friend with Makehuman! If you watch a few videos on how to organize its UI, you can customize it to feel pretty friendly. Also look for some videos on user settings, because you can switch the mouse buttons to behave normally!
For importing Makehuman (MHX), you only need the very basics. This is because an MHX file is totally ready to work with.
If you are having chest distortions, raise your characters arms to a "T" in Blender. The reason this will work is that the weighting influence (driven by an envelope) will now be far removed from the chest. No manual re-weighting needed! It's auto-magical!
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Right into blender it is :crying:
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Umm so the issues I'm having are the rigs,
The Jason game rig is the best and easiest to set up but it has no fingers .. The rest have no mouth or have extra bones around the shoulders that make the neck look odd. This is really obvious when applying the shoulder shrug motions in 3dx5.
Anyone else notice it ?.
Blender helps setting the t pose but still the neck looks odd.
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By GrannyJ - 12 Years Ago
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 I used the basic rig to make this toddler. I fixed the shoulders (rotated to proper T-pose), set all the viseme, and added the morphs before I converted him. I also went into mudbox and edited the cloth mesh a bit because skin protruded during some motions. I used the standard textures in Make Human because this was just a test - not going to release him, just wanted to make sure he "acted properly" in iClone (which he does now). Haven't decided whether I prefer this non-standard to creating my own in 3ds max.... there are pros & cons either way. But if you need a quick & easy avatar, this process with Make Human does seem like it would be a lot less daunting to folks unfamiliar with 3ds max.
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Some of the topologies seem to have free-floating verts here and there. Makes for some hideous distortions.
It's fun, but takes a lot of work.
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By planetstardragon - 12 Years Ago
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update from my last post - I spent the day experimenting yesterday - hit a lot of walls but a couple of successes!
my reluctance to learn blender at the moment, really is about them not importing all rigs. I have my hands full at the moment figuring out everything else I've paid for lol - aside from looking for a fluid workflow between various programs, I'm specifically looking for signature things that other programs don't do the same, so my nose will often be found in the off broadway stuff :w00t:
anyways, that said - I learned that for making a complete visime set for iclone....you really only need to model the ee, o, and f - pretty much everything else can be made out of combining those 3 and an open jaw. - this is especially nice for the signature "O" viseme - and giving your character a signature talk style - like the slight sneer, scared look or innocent smile, when they talk!
for example, say "You" first in an angry tone, then a happy tone, then a condescending tone - you will notice that all 3 are almost completely different shapes. :)
Imo, that nuance can bring a script to life when one person is speaking angry and the person they are talking , is speaking scared.
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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PSD, that is so true. Good call!
If using facial bones, you can copy and paste between visemes in the 3DX panel to do similar quickly. Then tweak the bone positions slightly.
Filling in all three sections of the muscle panel will make your avatar emote much better as well.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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I'm thinking the best solution may be to bring in the MH character into blender, separate the mesh from the bones, alter the bones as needed, then reattach with auto weights, and tweak from there.
From what iv seen the auto weights in Blender are pretty good ..
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By animagic - 12 Years Ago
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GrannyJ (9/3/2014)
Haven't decided whether I prefer this non-standard to creating my own in 3ds max.... there are pros & cons either way. But if you need a quick & easy avatar, this process with Make Human does seem like it would be a lot less daunting to folks unfamiliar with 3ds max.Or that don't have 3DS Max... I learned animation on 3DS Max 2.5 a long time ago, but early on I discovered that modeling a human is not for me... I like to be able to customize characters and faces, so the MH development is of interest to me.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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http://blendersensei.com/
A better Blender .. ??
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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It's the same Blender, just pre-configured to be more friendly from the get go.
Blender saves its current configuration with every file saved. So if you start with a nice configuration, and set it as your default startup file, you always get that when you launch Blender.
It really goes from Holy %^@@#, to great pretty quickly once you've made it like something your more familiar with.
This is a nice configuration and a nice customized theme. :):)
I have my own that I have been refining especially for Makehuman importing.
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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If your new to Blender, then Blender Sensei is AWESOME! If your an old hat, be forewarned that some things, like hot keys, might be different.
I'm going with it, being that I'm actually still a total newbie.
Watch all the videos (playlist) at the bottom of the page.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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For me its a god send, it cleans up the interface and makes navigation very very easy ..
Im loving it.. Blender is usefull now ..:P
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Check out the painting module. It's more impressive then painting in Sculptris.;)
I'm really impressed with this.
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By GrannyJ - 12 Years Ago
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animagic (9/4/2014)
[quote]Or that don't have 3DS Max... I learned animation on 3DS Max 2.5 a long time ago, but early on I discovered that modeling a human is not for me... I like to be able to customize characters and faces, so the MH development is of interest to me. @animagic- I'm sure lots of folks do not have 3ds Max (it is very expensive, takes a bit of study & practice to become proficient & it is quite daunting to many). MH offers them an alternative to be able to create their own characters - which is cool (it's nice to expand the number of folks creating characters). I was brought up in the construction industry using AutoCAD, so use of the Autodesk products is a familiar exercise for me and probably why I prefer it over MH. I think MH is a great tool for lots of folks to be able to design their own unique characters, but they will also have to utilize other programs (like blender) to get a really good result for use of the character in iClone.... I am excited to see what new characters everyone comes up with.... Make Target is a quite useful tool if you want to bring meshes (in obj format) into MH - as the MH content library is very limited. You can easily use the MH UV maps to create your own unique textures for their meshes. All in all, MH is a nice little supplemental tool. @rampa & bluemidget666 - yes, Sensei is a nice improvement over the default start settings! Thanks for putting that up here for folks....
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Sensei is actually much deeper than a startup file. It actually makes some fundemental changes in low-level Blender functionality. All for the better, in my eyes.
It also includes a super enhanced texture painter that will create UVs on the fly. So basically, you can model something, and just start painting. No separate UV step needed.
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By planetstardragon - 12 Years Ago
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i added the interface, and i feel lost all over again, apparently i started learning blender in it's original state after all haha -smh-
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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@PSD
Watch the tuts on the sensi website, I have found it so easy to get to grips with because the navigation is a breeze.
Tonight I'm Gona skin my first character model, I'm actually starting to like Blender :w00t:
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Help !!! I get her/it rigged in Blander but once in 3DX5 Grrrr 
I have no idea what the issue is.. Scratch that the issue is in Blender 
It has something to do with the two spine bones and the pivot point (the little white dot in the middle).. Any Ideas ?
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Looks like her face didn't get weighted. Are you using the new face rig?
You might want to check everything in weight painting mode.
This is why I don't dare disconnect my mesh from the bones (yet, anyway).
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Its the weights.. but their not easy to fix ..
Everythings ok but the face...
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Hay Swoooop
Thank you for the offer but I need to learn this..
All I need to sort out is weight painting .. driving me nuts..:P
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Been at this weight painting all night to come to the realisation there were issues with my model grrr.
One solution is not to detach the MH rig but add bones while it's attached and modify the new bone weights.
The problem with all blenders tuts on weight painting is that it relays on the auto paint working well .
Would be so much easier if you could delete by symmetry on the mesh and bones then mirror the finished bones, mesh and weights.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Hay Swooop
Thanks for your offer BTW but as this is the last step I need to learn I need to get it sorted.
I know you'll set there loads more I need to learn but this is the last step before I have a general understanding if how to create a character model from scratch. After this then it's all down to getting better at it , better UVs better bones, better skinning , better modelling , but all the basics will be there.
In theory ..
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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If you cannot get your character to slim down-down as you want, then try making them taller.
This can have a pretty dramatic effect on the overall look, so make use of it. Remember, you can set the scale properly in 3DX or iClone, so concentrate on the body shape and proportions in Makehuman. Use your gut.......errrrrr........eye!
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Couple things to look out for!
Weighting is off (see my dual layer avatar in Rampa's Corner) on some of the topologies (alternate body meshes). Even the "none" mesh is a little questionable. Time to do some weight painting!
The low poly eyes are cross weighted with one another.
There are a couple bones in the face-rig jaw that have a crooked roll. That is easily fixed in Blender, though. I reported that one to the Makehuman team.
________________
I still think there is a lot of potential here. I'm curious to see how exactly the clothing will be done in iClone 6, as it suggests a more even topology would be better for the physics.
That's why I have not tackled clothing yet in these experiments.
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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A really big issue is the problem with the arm-pit deformation of the mesh when set to "male". It distorts quite badly when the character is put into a t-pose. This will bite them, I think.
In "female" form, the mesh is fairly acceptable.
So far, my meager weight-painting skills have not fixed it.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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I think the weights are the biggest issue, I think it's this issue that is giving problems around the shoulder and neck.
I do not know if there is a trick to Blenders weight painting but so far iv found it a nightmare, they say to paint them on a sub divided mesh for best results, I think this might be wrong as my attempts on a high resmesh have been tragic :P
Think it's still worth the effort with MH but getting to grips with weights is the key.
Love to hear how you get on with it Rampa.. Good luck.
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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I think it actually has more to do with the topology in this case. If they had modeled the character in a T-pose (accurately), those issues would not exist. The polygons are having to stretch to far. A T-pose is kind of the midpoint of arm movement, so it really makes the most sense.
On the plus side, version 1.2 is supposed to bring the T-pose back. Unity people need it, and have made some noise.
Earlier versions used a t-pose, and these were non-issues. The downside with those versions (alpha 6 and 7, I think) was there was some bits were missing (like the tongue).
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Yeah the t-pose is needed for 3dx5 too, but if you are going to do any painting iv found this useful
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MPo27SL6PoE
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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bluemidget666 (9/3/2014)
Umm so the issues I'm having are the rigs,
The Jason game rig is the best and easiest to set up but it has no fingers .. The rest have no mouth or have extra bones around the shoulders that make the neck look odd. This is really obvious when applying the shoulder shrug motions in 3dx5.
Anyone else notice it ?.
Blender helps setting the t pose but still the neck looks odd.
Depending on the version of Makehuman your using, you may have the ability to add those finger bones.
If you have the "Thomas Facerig" version, then you have the skeleton editor. It may also be in the "unstable" nightly build.
Check to see if you have a "utilities" tab. One of it's sub-tabs is "Skeleton Debug". There are some options for merging/unmerging various bones, and a few other things. A couple of them deal with hands. So select or de-select what you need and hit "Update Bones".
These changes hold until you pick a new (or the same again) skeleton. The display does not reflect the changes, but the bone-list on the right does.
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Here is another face rig option that you drop into place in Blender. It's a bit more versatile as well.
Might work with DAZ/Poser models? Not sure if you can get them into Blender yet.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Cheers for the Vid but that does look scary .. not at that point yet...
They make it look so simple :P
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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I was right , the lower the poly count the easier weight painting is..:P
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Well here she is mostly skinned by me, i used blenders riggify as a starting point mainly for the hands and added head and jaw.. She works kinda, the jaw weights are awfull..
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Cool! Getting there.
She is 10 times to big. Blender does this. In the FBX output panel there is a size option. Set it to "0.1". Or, set the scale in 3DX to 10 and do a reset transform before converting to non-standard.
Been there, done that. Lots! :D
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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I quite happy so far as its only 2 nights playing in blender and she is a very extreme body shape, if I had of kept with a normal shape she would have better weights.
Think my next Zombie is going on a diet..
Never thought to check the scale, thanks for the tip..
I also managed to embed the lights, camera and shadows.. Bar Humbug..
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Yeah. Been there too, with lights and stuff.
With the FBX export from Blender, you can set it only export the mesh and skeleton.
FBX straight out of Makehuman will be the right size, as well.
Keep up the awesome work!
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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rampa (9/7/2014)
Here is another face rig option that you drop into place in Blender. It's a bit more versatile as well.
Might work with DAZ/Poser models? Not sure if you can get them into Blender yet.
OK. Only one goat gave it up to get this working. It cannot be loaded as an addon, but the .PY script that it is can be opened by Blender's text editor and run from there.
Learn something new every day.
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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I wonder if the iClone 6 engine will support quads? Then you could keep those 13,000 polys.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Hay Swooop
1: yeah your right I should have used a check pattern to see where I have stretched the mesh, I'll work on that.
2: I do work with quads unfortunately 3dx changes them into thoes horrible triangles. I do not see there is a way around that if they are going to be used in Iclone.
3: the scale issue crept in some where between make human, Zbrush and blender, Rampa pointed out how to fix this in Blender and I'll keep a eye on it n future.
4: Your smoothing of the model looks way better than anything iv managed to do , how you do that ?
5: I'm not sure what your last image is showing , what are all thoes angle lines ?
Now ! Iv had a thread open about getting 3d max 5.1 .. I know it's old but I think I'm going to get it has some features I like , like character studio 4 and other bits and bats what's your feeling on 5.1.
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By planetstardragon - 12 Years Ago
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swoop, don't screw up another thread with your rantings. Put a cap on your 1 trick pony posts, and your characters look ugly as heck, as usual.
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By planetstardragon - 12 Years Ago
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if you are going to brag incessantly about a product in another product forum, at least do something cool with it. you make the ugliest characters i've ever seen then insist we need the best tools to do stuff like that. like, what are you thinking ?
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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Wow I got a deal, I thought I might not be able to get it running so he wanted £60 I said £40 ...I got it , it's easy to get running on windows 7 but very limited on inport exports. I'll have a better play tomoz.
If I can use character studio on a obj file and export it as a FBX and maybe quad meshes and use turbo smoothing, I recon I got my money's worth.
@Rampa
If you do go into weight painting in Blender switch into wireframe mode it gives you a much better idea of what's going on.
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Nice, Blue!
You should see if an older iClone plugin works. Might be able to pin cloth, at least.
Hope it has FBX in, as well as out. If not, there may be a plugin to support that.
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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It had FBX in and out but have not found a version that works yet.. Autodesk have a archive site of old converters I'll work my way through them.
Trouble is with this type of old software that's so expandable through 3rd party plugins and scripts I have a wealth of old websites to go through to find what I want.
Heck I'll be happy If it has a good bevel tool that allows for rounder corners than Blender, silo and hexagon .. I want a bevel like you get with modo.
It's going to give me headaches but it's got some nice rigging tools and mesh clean up tools.
Still playing with blender weight painting but it's not easy, the apply envelopes option might be better that auto weight ..
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By vidi - 12 Years Ago
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I want a bevel like you get with modo.that allows for rounder corners
Is not chamfer in Hex the right tool fot that ?
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By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago
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:ermm: it might be .. I'll have to have a look, but it don't help having different names from app to app:P
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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The bevel in Blender is quite powerful.
You can set number of steps, width of the curve, and weather it's positive or negative. There is also a check box that makes it only effect corners, and not connected edges.
Add the modifier to a cube and play with it a bit.
Of course the bevel in MAX will be great too. :)
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By animagic - 12 Years Ago
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Interesting, but I wish though that we would get back to MakeHuman best practices...:unsure:
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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Getting back to Makehuman.
There is an issue with using the "look at" or "look at camera" where the avatar's eyes jump to a rolled up and slightly out position. I assumed this was based on the roll (bone's orientation, not its rotation angle) of the eye bones, but I get the same result even when I change the roll.
So maybe the assigning of the eyes sets roll in 3DX?
This issue is larger than Makehuman. Autodesk Character Creator avatars exhibit the same issue when converted.
Someone should test a DAZ avatar. I don't have DAZ on my system.
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By vidi - 12 Years Ago
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if the eyes have a offset, if rolling with look to and the camera target .
Check the Bones in the eyeballs. the piviot point should correctly set in the middle of the eyeball
So can each axis rotate from the center .
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By Rampa - 12 Years Ago
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I found the solution for the Makehuman eyes!!
Not sure on the Autodesk CG yet. Probably very similar.
The problem is with bone rolls. These are a bones internal coordinates. Some software likes the length of the bone along Z, and some likes Y.
3DX/iClone like Z. Blender likes Y
So, because I could not convert the skeleton to have its bones along Z instead of Y, I finally just set the eye bones to vertical (from horizontal) in "edit" mode in Blender, and then adjusted the bone's axis roll until it's Z faced forward. I exported with default FBX settings, and characterized. The eyes aligned properly with the "Look At". The bones head stayed in the exact same location, so there was no weighting issues to deal with.
For anyone who doesn't know, weighting is to the head of the bone. Its length is just an offset to the next bone.
The eyes are the only bones needing this correction. I thought the reach targets would be screwed up as well, but they worked fine. Bone length along Y did not seem to matter there.
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By vidi - 12 Years Ago
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The bones head stayed in the exact same location, so there was no weighting issues to deal with.
For anyone who doesn't know, weighting is to the head of the bone. Its length is just an offset to the next bone.
Rampa the head of the Bone is the pivot point and not weighting . Weighting is a map that indicates the influence of mesh area from a bone.
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By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago
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so i revisited make human - and learn more modo ...
I don't think the weight maps are bad actually - they are sloppy yes...but bad no....
the real problem I'm finding is the bones are not aligned correctly! repainting the weight map only reveals this problem, it fixes nothing.
firstly, it imported fine from make human into carrara, blender mhk, modo, and 3DX5, ... when you re-export it from those softwares, it's a horror story of cataclysmic proportions when you re-import it ...even to the same software ....like if i export fbx from modo, it comes back in a trainwreck from it's own fbx - no changes...just direct import / export /import ...same with carrara and 3DX5 ( i didn't test blender much on the topic as it imported the mhk fine, and exported fbx fine...but the rig still had the same issues when using the blender fbx in the other softwares )
I had it working in older versions of make human, but it seems they changed something for the worse in version 1.2
I also experimented with erasing the weights and repainting them, when they were repainted, the mesh went completely out of alignment making no sense at all....and the final clue was modo having an auto align function that changed virtually every bone to match the root ....and deforming the weight map even further when the bones were aligned correctly. The make human rig is a mess of epic proportions! lol
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By Rampa - 11 Years Ago
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Planet, you should make sure to download the nightly build. It has a lot more skeleton options. Otherwise, it's pretty similar. It does have T pose though. That makes characterization a lot easier!
The facial bones are oddball, but servicable.
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By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago
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problem i'm having though is with my workflow - see, first I import the character to 3DX5 - I retarget, so I can get the character into a t-pose - then export the obj...
it makes it easier to dress up and make / bind clothes in other software - plus a base mesh I can use to make visemes.
I just downloaded the very latest unstable build - but am thinking of skipping that and just learning the rigging in modo and getting it over with....it's actually not that hard - but still about 10 buckets worth of popcorn in tutorials lol :P ( at least for all the stuff I want to learn in modo aside from rigging )
if you want to test if they fixed it ...simply import a makehuman fbx to 3DX5, then export it from 3DX5 after you retarget it ...then re-import it .....if 3DX5 reimports it's own make human fbx fine, then they fixed it and worth downloading for brevity of workflow
at this point though, i may go down the re-rigging path anyway...simply because i got all artsy with the MH mesh in nuance, detail, symmetry, and needed to change the face count - so I'll need to disconnect it to a rebind anyways - i could just make one good rig in modo and save it as a template for future characters.
I considered using the game bone, but the amount of tweaking I'd have to do on it, is actually more clicks than just making a rig with the exact amount of bones I plan to use. I like tidy when it's an option lol. I don't mind spending time tweaking a customized master rig, I do mind having to make the same rig or fixes over and over for every new character.
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By planetstardragon - 11 Years Ago
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ok, learned how to rig in modo ( I learned it, haven't mastered it :p ) and found a fix for the make human rig itself! :w00t: the vertex normals are off - that's was what was causing the erratic behavior! in modo "set vertex normals" fixed it!
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