Rigging for Noobs

Rigging for Noobs

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https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic192253.aspx

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By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

Started a new thread to keep this organized.

sw00000p (7/14/2014)
theschemer (7/14/2014)I am still watching the thread...And I like to learn all the different techniques and then I can choose what is easier, better, or needed for what I am doing. I hate to be in the middle of the debate, but I am still here watching. Swoooooop, tell me more as I would at least like to know how it is done so I can decide what is best for me. [Wink]
Thanks,
TS

Ok, [Smile]

First, what exactly are you trying to do. There are variousmethods of Rigging inCG.
If you are hoping to do everything, concerning Rigging, in iClone alone...
Stop now... you will only waste your time.

Today... You must use an external 3d modeling and Animation app. to Rig characters.
Reallusion used 3ds Max to build iClone characters and props.
Today, the door is OPENfor practically ANY app to import Custom characters and props.

Blender is Free, but has fbx problems.
The autodesk converter should help with fbx problems. So, what app will you use to Rig characters?
________________________________________________________________________

NOTE: This is a learning experience. You need to learn how to correctly construct a skeleton.
No matter which external app you choose, this is the basic requirements:
This starts out very simple and basic....then Intermmediate... to Advanced Rigging.

BASIC:
1. Bone PRS: Position, Scale and Rotation.
2. Bone: Parent child relation.
3. ZERO-OUT (LOCAL-Orientation) and LOCAL & WORLD (POSITION) COORDINATES. (A MUST)

String bones together to create a humanoid skeleton.

• Hierarchy: Correct connection of bones, whereas the (Root) is the Hip/Pelvis bone.
• Move the Hip, the entire character moves.
For use in iClone, Just Skin the CORRECT bones to the mesh! [Smile] Map your bones to the RL bones.
THE ENTIRE MOTION LAYER OPTIONS.... WILL LIGHT UP... IF DONE CORRECTLY!
________________________________________________________________

Intermmediate Rig:

• Create Morph / Blendshapes.
• Add IK and or FK: Inverse or Forward Kinetics, to the bones.
• Import animation to iClone.
________________________________________________________________

Advanced Rig:
"Create a Jason Osipa Style Rig:

• Contruct a UI (User Interface).
• Controll the Bones with the UI. (As Reallusion Does)
• Use Bone-Based Animation WITH Morph / Blendshapes (To achieve SUPERIOR results) [Wink]
• Create (Corrective Morphs / Blendshapes) ONLY 4 needed!
THE ENTIRE MOTION LAYER OPTIONS.... WILL LIGHT UP... IF DONE CORRECTLY!

TIP:
1. Animate the TRACKS.. NOT BONES... To achieve (AUTO LIP-SYNC) [As Reallusion Does) [Wink]
2. Blend.... MOCAP! [Cool]

Kind Regards,
sw00000p [Cool]

Well, for starters, this isn't going to be a fast learning experience for me as I am totally new to this part of the program. I did mess with some 2D stuff and a little playing around with bones in Anime Studio. I have Carrara (just bought a few days ago), and Messiah. I don't like Blender period. And the 2 programs I mentioned I have little to no experience with. [Tongue] So where do I start as far a program choice. Is one better than the other or which one will be easier to learn with? So I start to build a basic skeleton from scratch? Ok. Now which app should I learn first from my choices? I am thinking Carrara...
Thanks,
TS

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

I will start my crash course in learning Carrara now so it will take some time to get comfortable with the app. Then I will feel better trying to learn this by focusing on one tool and learn it well. I will report back when I feel like I have a handle on the basics, hopefully soon.
Thanks,
TS

By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago

My 2p worth ..

I hate rigging ! It's just not fun and due to that I've looked for the best solution for some one like me who just wants to get a character with a working bone system into Iclone ... The best I come across is riggify in blender, the plugin is intended to appy a full rig to a character but if all you need in the bone structure then it boils down to just lining up the bones and attaching to the mesh, it's fiddly its in blender but it's the easiest method I have found.

It's very much like messiah but with weight painting.

I got a result after half a day learning , then gave up coz I hate rigging, but if I were to be starting from scratch I think I'd learn how to use riggify.

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (7/14/2014)

Hi Blue,
I really hate Blender though. :hehe: I know it is powerful but it drives me nuts every time I use it. Even following a tutorial with it if you make one mistake and mess up the 1000 window combinations, you can never get back where you were without starting over. I wish they had a undo button that worked like most apps. Maybe it will get better in the future but I have tried to like it.
TS

By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago

I agree blender is a pain but the rigging tools are the easiest I've found out side of 3dmax and it's kin.

It's just something you may want to look at if you find messiah or Carrara or even daz studio dnt do it for you.

There are a lot of people on here that find the above program's easy to use and understand , me I never got the hang of em.

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

Swooop,
I know Miss Wendy as she was the one that recommended Carrara a while back. I didn't buy it until a few days ago though as my head was already spinning from everything else I was learning. I found a place with some good starter info in the form of video tutorials for an older version and they will get me going. I am sure Wendy will be happy to help when I have some questions as she is good about that. She helped me with DAZ a bit already. :)
Thanks,
TS

p.s. Back to the grindstone. :P

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (7/14/2014)

You are correct, some programs just don't seem as easy to get the hang of as others that do the same thing. Good thing is that there are plenty to choose from. :D I have all 3 of the above apps mentioned so one of them better do it for me! I chose Carrara for the big serious start because it seems that it can be beneficial with DAZ and Poser stuff for future reference. May be able to take advantage somewhere with that...
Thanks,
TS

By Grimhilda - 12 Years Ago

Stand aside Swoooop, Grimhilda is here!!!

Just joking, of course, we haven't met yet!:):)

(If I come to the rescue with heart-reviving electrodes, then you need to stand clear! Them things are dangerous in the wrong hands!)

But this thread prompted me to create an absolute beginner level demonstration of putting bones into a mesh in Carrara.

I can demonstrate at that level because that isn't too far off the level I'm at with much of Carrara.

I hope it helps theschemer.

Here is the link:

By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago

That's a cool vid , the one thing lacking with Carrara is good rigging tuts.

By Grimhilda - 12 Years Ago

Thanks, bluemidget666.

I hope I haven't offended swooooop with my brash interruption. He, and you, can laugh at this effort which I already posted of an Iprop figure. It is pathetic and arose from some experiments I was doing. But the video includes a similar Carrara demo of adding bones to a mesh.

A very old book, the Carrara 3 Handbook gives a complete chapter on rigging.

Here is the rubbish video:

By mtakerkart - 12 Years Ago

I can't believe it was soooooo easy!!!!! Many many thanks Grimhilda!!!
in 6 min you show us what carrara or many tutorial could never make us understand their way of learning. Lot of geeks people don't want to understand that the simplicity is the start of complexity....

You make my day :P

Marc

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

Thanks GrimHilda,
I actually haven't had a chance to watch the videos as I was studying and getting nowhere fast! :hehe: I was playing around with the bone tool and not having any luck as it kept drawing straight lines between the bones etc...Plus a lot of interruptions today here. I will go watch the videos as soon as I can and I appreciate the help and the time you took to make the videos.
Thanks again,
TS

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

I watched the videos. Good job for us noobs especially that you are using Carrara. That makes all the difference in the world. I have them bookmarked as I will be watching them again soon. When I was messing around I tried to create a skeleton with no mesh. Is that even possible? :D Maybe that is why I was having trouble placing the bones? Do you click and drag each bone when adding them?
Thanks,
TS

By Grimhilda - 12 Years Ago

Hi Mtakerkart,

Thanks so much for your comments. Believe me, I'm not at all an expert in this - that is why I can reduce it to a simple demo:P:P

By Grimhilda - 12 Years Ago

Hello theschemer,

You've caught me out! Once the bone tool is selected you move and click to place each bone. If you drag and click you can resize it before letting the mouse button go.

I took care in both videos to go into side or top views. If you try to place bones in a 3D window, you can't tell how deeply into the scene they are being placed. In my worm video it was good luck that the bones were within the object - I could have gone to a side view and found they were high above the sphere. That is why in the human mesh example I used two views - front and side.

The bone tool remains active from click to click. If you want it to stop just choose the selection pointer to interrupt the bone creation process.

My 'demo' took no account of the many, many aspects of creating characters or props fit for animation.

The mesh structure (topology) needs to lend itself to distorting in a realistic way.

The bones need to be weight-mapped in most meshes. Carrara can do this. You re-assign distorted points of the mesh to another bone. The different bones have their own areas of influence over the points of the mesh and these can be adjusted.

Joints can be given constraint values to limit their movement - you don't want a neck to rotate 180 degrees, for example.

You can build IK chains into skeletons so that, if you pull a hand, the whole arm, shoulder and upper body gets pulled also.

There is even more I'm only vaguely aware of. Swooooop IS the one to really learn from about these things.

Swoooop, if you read this, I don't have much else to say - I just wanted to help those who've just bought Carrara in a sale.

IF I ever get to make an iclone film, I'll be very happy with existing iclone characters even from generation 1. But making my own moving props is appealing.

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

GrimHilda,
All good info. I know some things but like to approach new software as a noob so I don''t assume they all work the same as sometimes they don't. I understand the views and how they allow the alignment to be set correctly. What I don't understand is if you can make something with just bones or not. :hehe: That way I can steer clear of wasting time trying to make a skeleton out of just bones. I had lines between my bones when I was playing around. Maybe I started too many bones and had no hierarchy? I need to get past that issue so I can move on. :D That said, thanks for the good info and the tutorials as they really help save some time. One other thing I did notice was that the UI seemed like it could be larger on the eyes as in I can't see it so good and wish I could make it bigger. Is that possible? I was looking at the 2 monitor setup but it only works on large scenes and I guess I don't have one yet as nothing showed up on the other monitor.
Thanks,
TS

By Grimhilda - 12 Years Ago

Theschemer,

I've just logged on for a quick reply then I must be gone!

When you build a skeleton as I showed in the vids, it IS being built stand-alone - with the mesh as a reference to align with. Once it's built, you select both rig and skeleton and 'attach skeleton' to make one combined object. The object has two pivot points at that stage. Then, when you make the bone hierarchy a child of the mesh, the root bone becomes the sole pivot point.

When you first build a string of bones from the root, they all look alike. But if you run more than one chain of bones from (say) the root, the joining lines display as single lines. Take a look at the vids after the 'duplicate with symmetry' command has occurred and you should see this happening.

In the figure prop video, you saw that the figure only was given bones but it was wearing clothing. That was for the demo vid. In reality, after I made the skeleton for the figure I placed the clothing on as a child of the figure parent. THEN I attached the skeleton (to the combined clothing and figure). I could detach the skeleton again, put on different clothing and attach once more.

Detaching a skeleton means that everything - constraints, weight-mapping, etc. will be lost. But a saved skeleton could be kept in Carrara's browser to call up any time as a starting point for a new figure. A skeleton in the cupboard, as it were.:D:D:D

I tried making an IK chain once and now have forgotten it all - except I seem to remember that straight lines appeared joining both ends of the chain (like a bowstring).

Lastly, you can quickly create a figure in Sculptris - even a gingerbread man - decimate it in Carrara and use it for rigging practice. Everything I show on the internet is poor quality because I just proceed in that way to see how things work. But I should inflict better quality work on others!

This really is about all I know of rigging! Except that trying to do it makes me much more appreciative of characters such as Chuck and Gwynn. So much has been put into them and its all been done for us:):)

By vidi - 12 Years Ago

I find Carara is not a good rigging Tool . The weight brush is horrible and after bind the Bones to Mesh you can not adjust anymore . Also for adjust the weights jumping from Room to Room too cumbersome.

Put the Bones in the mesh is not very hard , but Weightpainting is the important rigging part, and for that is carrara not good.

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

Grimhilda (7/15/2014)

Thanks GrimHilda. I guess I must have been making an IK and didn't even know it when I was messing with the bone tool. :D Today I may have more time for study and learning. Yesterday was a bad day to quit smoking! (I don't smoke. A joke.) Thanks again for taking the time to help.
TS

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

vidi (7/15/2014)

Hi Vidi,
What are you using? I might have the apps to do it. :D I did not think the bone placing process would be too hard to learn as I have done it in 2D with Anime Studio before I switched over to 3D and iClone.
Thanks,
TS

By vidi - 12 Years Ago

I use DAZ Studio Pro

DAZ studio has several Methods.
e.g you can go through the figure setup tool, describe in this tutorial.

http://www.daz3d.com/rigging-original-figures-in-ds4-pro

or you can rig in DAZ studio manually with a interactive mode .That I show here

The time consuming part is weight painting , and the weight brush (auto normalize) is for me in DAZ Studio the best, that I have each tested.

Here are example and WIP (rigged with DAZ Studio)

https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic170450-14-1.aspx

With Bone you can do many things in DAZ studio

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

vidi (7/15/2014)

Thanks Vidi for the videos and the link. I went ahead and ordered the tutorial for further learning. The video you made showed me that DS is more powerful than I thought. A person can learn a lot from that video. I know I did. The weight painting tools and how you used them was great. I have a lot to learn but this is the kind of help us beginners need.
Cheers,
TS

By bluemidget666 - 12 Years Ago

Thanks for the vids vidi :)

By Grimhilda - 12 Years Ago

Hi Swooooop,

I've just returned home and saw in another thread that you took offence by my 'stand aside joke'. Never in a million years would I have said that to give offence to you, a stranger whose many, many posts I've read with interest and from whom I've learned a great deal.

In all honesty I want everyone to know that you have my full respect.

My knowlege of 3d is only that of a keen hobbyist who has read far more than I've ever done. The poor quality of what I've shown speaks for itself.

It's clear that you are in a professional league that I'll never belong to.

The thread I jumped into was between you and theschemer. When you spoke of Carrara I took an hour or so to create the video because I had the very interface he planned to use right here before me.

My remark was meant to be friendly banter and I'm genuinely sorry it gave offence.

EDIT - I posted this on the other thread also and swooooop graciously replied. (This is to save you another reply, swooooop:):))

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

Grimhilda (7/15/2014)

Yeah, I thought he was just kidding as he wants you to help me. ;) I think you should listen to him. :D:D:D
Thanks,
TS

By vidi - 12 Years Ago

Thank you TS and blue :)

I did not think the bone placing process would be too hard to learn as I have done it in 2D with Anime Studio before I switched over to 3D and iClone.

Yes it works something like that. Also in the reference Rigging Guide from DAZ you will learn how to connect the bones Hierarchy properly
or in the Game Bone white paper.

http://origin.reallusion.com/ic/iClone_Avatar_Creation_with_low_poly_gamebone.pdf

Actually the principals the same everywhere.
No complicated Thinking needed or not special iC mysteries here, for use 3Dxchange to converted your RIG to Nonstandard Avatare :D

Try the weightbrush in Carara and try the weightbrush in DAZ studio, I think you will notice the difference.

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

vidi (7/16/2014)

Thank you TS and blue :)

I did not think the bone placing process would be too hard to learn as I have done it in 2D with Anime Studio before I switched over to 3D and iClone.

Vidi,
Thanks for the link to the pdf. I don't think I have seen that one before. Looks like a good read. I will try the weight brush and compare. I think the interface in Carrara needs some color changes or something too, as the font or buttons seem small, like I need a bigger monitor or a lesser resolution. Of course my eyes are not what they used to be either. I think things look clearer in DAZ if you know what I mean. Maybe a few adjustmets to the UI are in order as GrimHilda'a video's look easier on the eyes than the default.
TS

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

sw00000p (7/17/2014)

vidi (7/16/2014)

Turn on wireframe and string the bones following the topology.

btw not visual the best view with Carrara.

a further reason why I can not recommend to rig in Crarara.

theschemer, (I Meant to say, "Turn On Xray Mode" not wireframe!"

In Carrara, with the mesh selected, are you able to:

• Turn on "XRAY" mode
• Turn on "EDGE FACES"

Switch to the "Left or Right" Othographic View and Draw Out Leg Bones

The Upper and Lower Leg Bones MUST NOT BE STRAIGHT.
IK NEEDS A SLIGHT ANGLE TO WORK CORRECTLY!

Here's a Biped with FacialBones :)

Facial Bones: Front

Facial Bones: Side

RESULT: :rolleyes:

HOPE THIS HELPS! :)

Thanks Swooop,
That's the kind of help us noobs like. ;) Maybe even a video would help even more. Something that can be viewed again and again until it all sinks in. :P
TS

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

sw00000p (7/17/2014)

Sir, you are quiet welcome! :)

Note:
Your response is what makes me want to help.

Also: I could put a quick vid together, but It would be using 3ds Max.
I fail to see how a max tutuorial would help you... In Your App of Choice.

3ds Max's bone construction methods are FAR from what you will actually do, in your app.

Example:

1. Max has NO lines that show up.
2. You DON'T bind the mesh to the bones.
3. You apply Skin to weight the vertics to the mesh.

I don't want to waste your time, nor mine.
Do you still think a 3ds Max Bone placement tutorial will HELP YOU???
_________________________________________________________

Please Note:
This is where I'd wish, Grimhilda or anyone else, would teach you Carrara Tool Basics.
Because Grimhilda, barely scratched the surface, concerning character rigging.

There is a special way the (Face Bones) are constructed, linked and (special modifiers - Orientation Constraints, for example) used to achieve Realistic bone movement.

Yes, this is more advanced, but you MUST learn how to construct a simple rig...
...this means, Carrara or Daz or whatever app you choose...
You MUST learn its Basic Tool usage.

A 3ds Max tutorial would only confuse you!

BUT....

Let me know, by explaining... How it would help YOU!
...and I'll see what I can do! :cool:

Kind Regards,
sw00000p

Swoooop,
You may have a point on the 3dMax tutorial not helping. I don't want you to waste your time if the time used doesn't help anyone. I am patient and when I run into trouble and better questions when I get stuck, I will definitely be asking. I am sure the Carrara and DAZ users will help when that time comes. I will try to get comfortable with the interface and tools before I ask questions that would be answered and only add more confusion. I have 2 monitors and originally I had Carrara opened on the further away one and the interface looked hard to read and hard on the eyes. Now I use it on the monitor in front of me and that helps a lot. I have a feeling I will be using both DAZ and Carrara together so I will be watching videos as usual and reading and posting here when I have more educated questions using all the right terminology etc. Sometimes the simple stuff can trip me up more than the hard stuff. :cool:
Thanks,
TS

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

sw00000p (7/17/2014)

theschemer,

Another example: Realistic (Secondardy) facial bone movement:

One may think All facial bones are linked to the head... not always true.
Goal is to speed up animtion.

1. Upper lip bones are linked to the head bone.
2. Lower lips and (Corners of the Mouth)bones are linked to the (Jaw bone).

Lower the Jaw, Opens the mouth... and the lower lips and (Corners of the Mouth)follow.
Do this straight forward... and the (Corners)... MOVE TOO MUCH.

One Soluton:

1. Apply a point helper to the jaw bone. now the jaw can be animated from 2 points. (Jaw and helper)
2. Link this point helper (as the Parent of the Jaw bone)
3. Add a another point helper to the jaw bone. (Smaller this time)
4. Link the second point helper... to the first point helper.

Apply an Orientation constraint to the (Second Point Helper).
Constrain it between the Jaw and the other point helper.

Details: Modify the two points of constraint.
1. First point gets: 33.5%
2. Second point gets: 66.5%

Result: Perfect (Gradual Movement) for the corners of the mouth.
1.When the HUMANjaw opens... the Corners of the mouth gradually move DOWN.

i.e. 33%
This is the TIP of the iceburg for Character rigging!
Get It!

I saying this because if I show you ALL of these steps.... Using 3ds Max Tools...
HOW IN THE WORLD WILL YOU DO THIS IN CARRARA, DAZ ect., etc.
_________________________________________________________________

EDIT:
Why even consider ALL THIS STUFF!

REALLUSIONS COMBO-RIG... is why.
Construct THIS RIG...

Create Perfect Extreme Morph Targets... That FIT the bone animation.

Resutlt:
Realistic Morphs for your animation. No suprises! :cool:

As I understand it, in August...

You will be able to (IMPORT REALISTIC FACIAL ANIMATION) into iClone.
NO MORE "Flapping the lips" up and down.

Next: Import Facial Mocap! :rolleyes:
______________________________________________________

If you're not interested... just say so and I'll clam up!

Swoooop,
I guess we were posting at the same time. I am interested in all the knowledge I can use, just have to throttle it in at the correct pace. :w00t: I pay attention and take a lot of notes. If I don't lose my notes I refer to them when I need them. After something sinks in, I still save the notes as reference material is not always that easy to store in the old noggin! I have many books on programming that I could not sit and read like a book, but I could extract what I needed when I needed something to do a certain thing. Like a function. Can't remember the syntax but remember the name of the function and get the parameters or rules as needed. After time I remember the whole shebang but at first, not so much. It will take time but I appreciate your willingness to help. Just don't expect me to be a pro anytime soon. :D
Thanks,
TS

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

sw00000p (7/17/2014)

My advice:
...if you can NOT find "High-Quality" Carrara Traing... which isNOT available on youtube...

FOLLOW VIDI
She has taken the time to learn how to model ad rig... from SCRATCH!
Using less expensive apps., i.e. Daz, 3d Coat, etc.
HER END RESULTS ARE AWESOME! :cool:

Kind Regards,
sw00000p

True. I have watched many video's by Vidi. Paced fast enough but not too fast which is good. And they are all silent with words on the screen when needed. Works for me. :)
TS

By theschemer - 12 Years Ago

sw00000p (7/17/2014)

theschemer (7/17/2014)

I have many books on programming that I could not sit and read like a book, but I could extract what I needed when I needed something to do a certain thing. Like a function. Can't remember the syntax but remember the name of the function and get the parameters or rules as needed. After time I remember the whole shebang but at first, not so much.

Coding, excellent analogy.

I'veHard-Coded a little CSharp inside Unity Pro.

The point I'm trying to make is...
1. Learn C++, then Learn Lua, then...

Learn ONE ONLY... then move on.
Don't try and learn ALL the availabe languages.
Too confusing!

CG and 3D....
Pick ONE app and learn it.

The moment you dive into learning (Multiple apps)...
YOU ARE IN TROUBLE.

Right again,
Multiple apps is ok if they are all about different things (photoshop, html etc) but learning multiples of the same subject can make a head explode. I know, I have tried it. :hehe:

edit: But on the other hand, until you find the app you like and you will use, you do start learning on multiple apps and a lot of things are the same on each like terminology (parts of it anyhow) are usually industry standards.
TS