The announcement about 3DXchange 5.2

The announcement about 3DXchange 5.2

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https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic131580.aspx

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By Bruce (RL) - 14 Years Ago

Dear 3DXchange5 Users,

Thank you for all the great support you have been giving us for 3DXchange5 these days. All your feedbacks give us precious ideas and suggestions on how to improve 3DXchange5, making it a more powerful pipeline tool.

Initially the plan was to launch the update with 3DXchange 5.1 with facial animation features in June. But after special consideration on some of your suggestions, we will now delay the launch of these features in 3DXchange 5.2 to the end of 2012 in order to add more of these features to our original development plan. The following are some sneakpeak screenshots that show some new progress. Please take note that these images are for your reference only, as this is a work in progress.

Thank you again for all your feedback, support and patience.
We are confident that we will deliver 3DXchange 5.2 with great new features !

All the best,
Your Reallusion Staff

By Paumanok West - 14 Years Ago

Bruce (RL) (8/5/2012)

...But after special consideration on some of your suggestions, we will now delay the launch of these features in 3DXchange 5.2 to the end of 2012 in order to add more of these features to our original development plan...

... We are confident that we will deliver 3DXchange 5.2 with great new features !

I've been with iClone ever since it was a silly little toy (proof of concept) called "It's Me," and Version 2 was the only version that didn't knock me out with awesome improvements over the previous version.

I fully share confidence in your awesomeness, and I'm also confident that you're making some generous sacrifices in short-term profit in order to deliver the best you can at Christmas.

"There is no charge for awesomeness . . . (or attractiveness)." --"Kung Fu Panda"

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

we will now delay the launch of these features in 3DXchange 5.2 to the end of 2012

thanks, I'm disappointed again
the third shift of the updates
I have the feeling, RL is a claims knockers
when I hear this justification, unfortunately I can only laugh.
probably does not even have the base.
this reminds me of something ...

Mocap does work (there I said it). You just need to adapt to the limitations of the current system and try to forget about what you "expected".

Robert

By sharad.inc - 14 Years Ago

Bruce (RL) (8/5/2012)

these features

- Can we at least get some detail on what "these" features are? Will we be able to export facial animation done in iClone to other software? If yes, in what format? And will it also be possible to import vertex facial animation? etc etc

By planetstardragon - 14 Years Ago

I like it, I give kudos to RL for taking their time to listen to our feedback and make a bigger and better update. 3DX5 was already an amazing improvement, and I think the only thing they had working against them was announcing another amazing feature ( morphing ) they were adding to the software in advance. I personally do not feel upset at the delay, but honestly speaking, I can't say I know what I'd do with it yet when it comes out, so I haven't that sense of urgency from any planned projects with it.

I've noticed many pre- announcements, especially with gaming software builds more frustration and tension than anticipation. The "Are we there yet ?" condition! lol :)

what I am craving for though, I admit, is that 3rd panel in the Iclone 5.3 patch!!! :w00t:

my dragons and monsters will be so much more intimidating when I can animate them growling and smacking victims around with their tails!!

I'm so happy with the new rigging options, I am not missing anything daz ...( not yet anyways lol )

so for the record I commend RL for taking more time to make things bigger, better with less bugs!!

if the choices were to work with an incomplete update now and deal with bugs, or wait for a polished update, i think most people would opt for a polished update ( except me, I enjoy betas lol )

I also have to admit to being a fan of RL products, I've been with em since Iclone 3, and have observed first hand how they listen and improve the products.....They are a very ambitious company with their software, and I think it's also a learning process for them as well....they start out with one idea for an update then they listen to our comments like them and add more to the product ....the problem is that adding more great features means needing more time to implement them.

By animatom - 14 Years Ago

"...and I think it's also a learning process for them as well..."
Yes, I think this is the key here.
I would love to see animated morphs in and out, point cashe as well, bones everywhere, some under the hood scripting options - but it is fair to admit that Reallusion listen their customers and really tries to implement everything possible.
I'm tracking iClone from first versions and improvements are monumental.
This is very serious film making tool now, much more serious than many users are. Much more serious then most of movies made in iClone are.
So this is the hard reality: we must make effort to track iClone, not the other way around.

By Paumanok West - 14 Years Ago

animatom (8/6/2012)

This is very serious film making tool now, much more serious than many users are. Much more serious then most of movies made in iClone are.
So this is the hard reality: we must make effort to track iClone, not the other way around.

Thank you: I agree one million per cent. (Is that a per cent??) :P

By animatom - 14 Years Ago

Thank you, mr West.
There is one thing that many users shouting for new options (including me sometimes, I admitt) somehow don't see. And this is probably most important thing to learn in animation.
The beauty of workarounds.
iClone can stop developing right now, in this state, and it will stay for a long time powerful enough for any dedicated film maker to make anything he want.
For any lack of option, for any missing tool, there is always some workarounds and workarounds are creative as hell.
What is the better way to learn or to get new, fresh idea for something then trying to overcome some problem?
So Reallusion, take your time. All time you take is on my side anyway. :)

By Capemedia - 14 Years Ago

animatom (8/6/2012)

Thank youSo Reallusion, take your time. All time you take is on my side anyway. :)

Agreed :)

By wendyluvscatz - 14 Years Ago

ok, bit too much Reallusion butt kissing here :w00t:
they will need toilet tissue to dry off :hehe:
thx for the update Bruce, appreciated
but
gimme gimme gimme already!!!! :D:D:D:D:D
I have been very busy converting some massive Daz props into iProps thx to the 64bit and 3dx5 that I never would have been able to before and also doing lots of weird Genesis characters,
eager as punch to be able to get some facial movenent too.

By animatom - 14 Years Ago

And what's wrong with butt kissing!?
ooops. sorry. wrong forum.

By planetstardragon - 14 Years Ago

Lol wendy!! yeah, I'm a fan...but i also think all the vets can also attest to the fact that I was one of the biggest screamers on the forum at one time as well. Reallusion listened and delivered, so I feel like if I can take the privilege of having started massive complaints, I can also do the same for cheering them on when they care about giving me the product I want :)

so i feel quite comfortable in re-assuring everyone that great things are coming our way, I want to cheer Reallusion on for caring about us. ;)

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

The Reallusion believers have spoken ... AMEN

Reallusion can tell and sell you what they want. You say, yes yes yes, thats great!
If Reallusion sold you a horse with three legs, then you probably find this as a great gift of graces Reallusion ...
Such a customer wishes to each company.
congratulations Reallusion, very well behaved

lol
Robert

By planetstardragon - 14 Years Ago

nah, ....i like to be fair...my troll skills are greater than yours, it's just more fun and productive with a positive approach. It creates unity and teamwork in the community. ;)

By wendyluvscatz - 14 Years Ago

not possible
it would need four limbs with 3bones per limb to be retargetted as a non-standard avatar :P
I had a lot of fun trying to do a chicken and a parrot that only had two wing bones
sort of got them in using the fourth bone on each foot as the "hand"

By majorlance - 14 Years Ago

If it takes waiting to get lip synch/facial morph then it is worth the wait. That is the main item I'm looking for. Until then I'll stick with 3DX 4 and be happy.

By animatom - 14 Years Ago

Robert, there is simple but true sentence one strange but not stupid animator Tom Jantol said in one interview:
Bend a story to fit a tool, not the other way around. Interesting things are happening then.

Can we now go back to kissing asses theme? (that other forum is down)

By wendyluvscatz - 14 Years Ago

I can import my 3DUtoon and Content paradise donkeys but without facial anim I cannot make them kiss! :w00t:

By Paumanok West - 14 Years Ago

wendyluvscatz (8/6/2012)

Wendy, you're demonstrably smarter than most of the rest of us, and I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically. However, when you push the envelope as hard as you do, you are eventually going to break iClone, as shown here. So why are you complaining when it happens?

If you harnessed your sophistication to making an actual movie rather than exploring advanced features . . . watch out! :w00t:

By wendyluvscatz - 14 Years Ago

PW, it is not just iClone, I do that with EVERYTHING!
it is why I have jumpers with crazy pictures I've knitted on them AND fairisle cables I never wear, broken kitchen appliances, half finished stuff strewn in cupboards throughout the house etc.
you name it, I fiddle with it.
at least the computer stays in one place and takes up less room, we won't get started on my crazy garden!!

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

Sorry Tom,
i can´t agree. I love iclone, but I feel Fooled!
But no matter what makes Reallusion, here i only heard. Hey.. it's great, fantastic.

update for the third time moved .... i only heard. it's great, take your time, we will wait until the last day, you are the best ...
sorry, that's strange behavior for me.
next point

Mocap does work (there I said it). You just need to adapt to the limitations of the current system and try to forget about what you "expected".

what a message? Why do I learn this 8 month after the purchase. I feel Fooled. Whats about the realistc motions in advertising?
Only thing i read. Hey, whats the problem. If Peter said, it works, than it works.
Respect!!!

greets
Robert

By animatom - 14 Years Ago

Yes, I understand you.
I had my yelling at Reallusion, as couple of us "defenders" here, everyone with different reason. I was pissed of by the price of 3DXchange Pipeline not so long ago.
Thing is that it will always be something.
But for me best test to see is something worth yelling at, is to measure will my movie be better with this option I need and program doesn't have. Or, is that missing option or bug or undelivered promise exactly that thing that will make my movie better?
In my case answer is no.
Now I know this is not what you talking about, I'm just describing my dealing with software companies. (it helps my grumpy half cooked broken nerves me.) :)

By elektron2kim - 14 Years Ago

Seems a good thing so can't argue much with that.

My learning trajectory is currently somewhere on the other side of Mars, so I am not sure whether curiosity killed the cat or where I'm at.

At least I feel some ideas of mine stays on the moon,
so instead of never, a better thing is soon.

By power - 14 Years Ago

Hi:

To be honest, it is somehow disappointing to read a delay in facial animation. However, I prefer that than receiving a buggy product.

Hope RL could surprise us with improvements in development and a release earlier that 12/2012.

On a funny side, you know the Maya Prophecy (12/21/2012), will left us with too little time to play! :)

Later!

By wendyluvscatz - 14 Years Ago

we shall not speak of ,my experiments using spx scripts to add spring to Genesis eyes :w00t:

By animatom - 14 Years Ago

Eyes looks as mine in distant student past, usually after trying some strange tobacco that was somehow around back there.
:)

By kmiteff_20091227013941124 - 14 Years Ago

Yearrrgghhhhh!

But a great horror effect... hmmm....

By kmiteff_20091227013941124 - 14 Years Ago

All in all, considering the price point of the product and the overall value, I can forgive them for having the limited resources which is obviously causing the delay. This coupled with making sure they are giving us something of value. I am really chomping at the bit for this feature, but I will wait for the time being. The Reallusion folks have really put a lot into the product, it has steadily evolved and the progress has been tremendous even if at a relatively slow pace. But the product, especially with the release of the Pipeline feature, has reached a new level. The expectations are very high, along with the higher price. I think they understand this. I have faith in their commitment and they have always been helpful when I have run into trouble. For a product under $400, I find this type of product absolutely wonderful. This is certainly one of the best software investments I have ever made. If they continue to be sincere in their support, we should in turn support them. I would feel differently if the product was $1995, but I am sure that Reallusion would probably feel differently as well! Let's help them where we can. I believe there is no malicious intent in what they are doing and are truly out to make a superior product.

By Peter (RL) - 14 Years Ago

RB3006 (8/6/2012)

Mocap does work (there I said it). You just need to adapt to the limitations of the current system and try to forget about what you "expected".

Hi Robert,

I can certainly understand your frustration because I hate waiting for anything too. However I do feel we are in a bit of a no win situation here.

When we keep quiet about upcoming products and features, we get criticized for not giving any information. On the other hand if we give information or scheduled release dates and they get changed, then we get criticized again.

I can assure you that nobody gives wrong information on purpose. Just sometimes dates have to be changed to offer an even better product in the end.

By rampart - 14 Years Ago

This is standard procedure with any software developer with a large number of users that are very involved with the software. If you promise anything you will be reminded frequently.

One way out is to share little or nothing until you have to start your marketing. Then you gotta get with the program, whatever that is. LOL

You are doing the best thing you can, keeping us posted.

Thanks for that :D

By himemiko - 14 Years Ago

I see those screen shots as just like for the "Gorf" character style.
Vertex facial animation control system like as iC Standard Character for Daz characters etc, is canceled?
or those system were integrated?:Whistling:

By Artman009 - 14 Years Ago

Bruce / Peter,

I know 3DXchange 5.2 is still in development and there are almost certainly features that you two cannot announce yet but with regards to DAZ Studio, can you confirm whether or not morph animation--either with the Genesis model or any props with morphs--will be able to be brought into iClone via FBX file import in 3DXchange?

I ask because for the past few months I've been practicing on my facial and lip sync animation skills in DAZ Studio and would hate to find that any morph animation be lost during the pipeline process into iClone/3DXchange.

Thanks.

By wendyluvscatz - 14 Years Ago

if you want facial animation for Daz characters for now, just render facial closeup cut scenes in studio, you can use openGL and remove any opacity from hair textures to speed it up heaps.

By himemiko - 14 Years Ago

sw00000p (8/22/2012)

Facial Animation is for "Grown Folks!"

RL's screenshot clearly displays a "Bone Mapping" Ui!
bye bye recognizing pure vertex animation!:crying:

I know.
RL does not announced even once, "facial animation is done by the vertex animation".:hehe:
RL has announced interested in "Morphing Animation" only.

By jamijrodca - 14 Years Ago

Hmmm, I was waiting to see how facial anim will work with Daz to purchase 3DX pipeline (or not), so I'll have to wait other 4 months :doze:

By mjordy - 14 Years Ago

Oh No,another update? I certainly hope the Reallusion team doesn't take 3dXchange5 Pro the way of Iclone pro's "complicated" updates. In IC5Pro, previous version characters are useless in the latest versions:w00t:
I hope we can still export and export older models:hehe:

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

@jamijrodca
i´m affraid, you must wait another 4 month or more. :w00t:
current they postponed the Monsterpack and i think, thats all the same problem. Facial Animotion works not as expected. :unsure:
Robert

By Illustrator Cathy - 14 Years Ago

I'm with Mitch, Tom and Cape. Over the years Reallusion has always impressed me. Of course now it's evolved to to where I'm not smart enough to grasp half of what's going on! LOL :P Thank Goodness for the Wiki! I can watch the tutorials over and over and over and over...:w00t:

Cathy :hehe:

By wendyluvscatz - 14 Years Ago

it will be here
soon
Real(lusion) soon :w00t:

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

Hmm... it seems somehow the morphs are mapped into facial bones or something... that should be interesting... and somewhat time consuming.
\
Also, it'd be great if they just had vertex animation (morphs) work in general for props as well.

Alembic support would be TOO good!

Or at the very least, MDD support... yeah those files are large, but that's up to the user to see how much space they can hold.

By Paumanok West - 14 Years Ago

Dreamcube017 (9/23/2012)Alembic support would be TOO good!

I had not previously heard of this, but information about Alembic can be found here. You can see why DC is interested.

By animagic - 14 Years Ago

Comment retracted... don't want to upset...

By moviemaker100 - 14 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (8/7/2012)

[quote]When we keep quiet about upcoming products and features, we get criticized for not giving any information. On the other hand if we give information or scheduled release dates and they get changed, then we get criticized again

Well. Let´s check the facts:
You ask your progamers, when they think they are done.
They annonce a date - you tell it to us.
Well EVERY date is wrong. :w00t:
So add to the date of your guys generally 4 months - and all is better for everyone. :D

An option that would be more interesting just for us:
Get more or better programers that act faster and stop "producing" "patches of doom".

But after the least "patch of doom" and that many things you have to deliver and repair, this option may be interesting for you, too.
Sure. It is more expensive.
But it would be the best PR for you - better than any pack or advertisement.
Because: Happy customers are good customers, that like to buy :D

At moment we are not really happy................................
(and that is the very, very belittled what RL is for a lot of us, at moment :pinch: )

By animagic - 14 Years Ago

Programmers are OK :cool:, need better testers...:blush: It's hard to find really good testers...:unsure:

By planetstardragon - 14 Years Ago

Latest "Patch of Doom" ? hrmm..what happened ? I've used iclone mainly for renders lately and I've seen no problems - not saying there isn't one, just saying I haven't seen one. Have you guys been using the cd tray as coffee holders again ?!! :P

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

BigDaddy RL is a MAD GENIUS!

NO.... not at the moment. RL only announces ... to postpone ... since month.
I can not agree with " Patch Of Doom", but RL .... it´s time now to deliver what you promises.

Robert
PS
(@planetstardragon .... you have forgot to write "lol" after your sentence :P)

By planetstardragon - 14 Years Ago

lol!! :P

I've learned to become more patient on the topic because I can appreciate how much work goes behind all the changes / updates / advances in the software in general, especially having been a part of past betas and watching first hand how many things were added and changed throughout the process. This knowledge has tainted my view as an average consumer and left me thinking about the immense process that goes behind building this software. I can only imagine what it feels like to put in a ton of hours to be on schedule only to find out you have to go back to the drawing board.

By wendyluvscatz - 14 Years Ago

I think they are refering to expressions being broken, mildly annoying for me but not life changing, one could always roll back if REALLY needed.

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

I think that pushing the date a few months ahead of whta the devs say is a good idea.

I understand that people spend money and want something NOW NOWNOW... but those people often forget that there are PEOPLE making the program. Sometimes things go wrong and so it takes a little longer.

They said facial stuff was coming out near the end of the year... it's NOT the end of the year yet.

Expect this to come out sometime in January or early February.

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

@Dreamcube017

They said facial stuff was coming out near the end of the year... it's NOT the end of the year yet.

sorry, but you are not up to date. First announced release of Facial Animotionn was April 2012.
Than postpone to July, than postpone to "End of the year".

but those people often forget that there are PEOPLE making the program. Sometimes things go wrong and so it takes a little longer.

Sorry, than do not announce (at 2 times and postpone again)

Expect this to come out sometime in January or early February.

when that will happens, that was a real big shame for RL.

Same problem at the now called "Toon Monster Pack" ...

RL , i ´ve created this new slogan for you ( of course Royalty free)
*** announced to postpone***

..congratulations
Robert

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

I'll admit that there is something I wanna do and I have a nearly perfect pipeline for it... but the lack of facial animation is kinda bringing it to a hault unless I can find a way around it.

I want it to come out just about as much as you do. I'll admit, I was hoping for something around July... but oh well. Hopefully it WILL be out by the end of this year.

By moviemaker100 - 14 Years Ago

@Dreamcube017
Until RL is ready, you may get facials over 3d studio.
I have already seen g5 game models with facials made with 3ds.
So there must be a way or better some guys have found a way...! ;)

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

Well unless I can find a decent tutorial that shows how to convert facial morphs into bones. (I like working with Maya a bit more though) but honestly, I'm not so much of a character designer/modeler. I'm just an animator... well not even so much that. MOSTLY an environment person with SOME animation skills. I've got plenty of other projects to do... I'll work on those and wait.

Yes I know it sounds lazy but hams.

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

Hmm.. when you say "already existing animation" do you mean the animation created from the point data or from elsewhere?

As stated before, the characters I have had face morphs... I suppose I can try and rerig the face after a bit of reading up on it, but I feel like it'll be easier with splines. I guess I'll have to figure out if it's possible to convert the splines to bones or something. Google here I come.

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

Ya know, all this could be circumvented if they just started supporting morphs.

By alemar - 14 Years Ago

RL time to show us how this will be... I need to know too. I"m waiting this features for go ahead with some projects...
Alemar

By animatom - 14 Years Ago

Yes, importing of morphs are only reason left that I still keep some other animation software on the comp. In the moment when iClone will be able to deal with morphs, my comp will be cleaner, animations better, wallet healthier, day longer and sky brighter.
So you see, Reallusion, it is not just matter of technical convenience. :)

By timposch - 14 Years Ago

Just curious if we're any closer on a release date, being so close to the end of November/start of December.

I'm jonesing for facial animation export from iClone 5.3, like many others here.

Any word on progress or delay would be helpful for planning my implementation pipeline.

By Artman009 - 14 Years Ago

animatom (11/23/2012)

In the moment when iClone will be able to deal with morphs, my comp will be cleaner, animations better, wallet healthier, day longer and sky brighter.

Agreed. However, I believe all RL has confirmed are facial morphs, not any other morphs/BlendShapes.

Fingers crossed, though.

By Artman009 - 14 Years Ago

timposch (11/24/2012)

I'm jonesing for facial animation export from iClone 5.3, like many others here.

As am I. Cannot wait.

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

+1.

I have a few projects that are on standby until this happens.

By himemiko - 14 Years Ago

It will be middle of December soon… :pinch:
Do I have to wait until Christmas the implementation of Add facial animation system to 3dx5 Pro/Pipeline? :hehe:

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

Don´t have high hopes... you know
RL ... announce to postpone

Robert

By larryjbiz - 14 Years Ago

I think I read a post from Peter that the upgrade was pushed into January Crazy

By djmulcahy - 14 Years Ago

Yup. January at least. Confirmed in another thread.

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

Well if it means less bugs, then I suppose it's ok.

By Dream Cutter - 14 Years Ago

Has 3DExchange 5.2 been further delayed?
I can't find any official status beyond what is mentioned in this thread, where Peter says this will be delivered in December. EDIT: I decided to chill on this.

By vidi - 14 Years Ago

and its not even working yet!

xchange is not working ? :hehe:

By Dream Cutter - 14 Years Ago

EDIT: I decided to chill on this. Just hope the company uses its resources (our money) wisely to improve the product. Just say'n :P

By vidi - 14 Years Ago

"Key Features: Bring in any character, motion & prop into iClone and connect to a world of 3D Tools."

for me it works perfect

Import DAZ figures into I-Clone"

works
and the facial expression is promised as free update

Import non-human figires"

that mean not standard
Here the term of non-human

Non-Human Character (Creature Base)

None Human Character has its own unique bone structure that is different from iClone Standard Character or None Standard Human Character. It contains its own unique Animations and Motion Bones that belong to the character with IK motion editing system. You can open the Edit Motion menu by right clicking on the creature base. Also, you can easily attach accessories to any bone segment. Users can also redefine skin color and modify texture with UV reference. Like None Standard Human Character, Non Human character has no facial expression puppeteering and can not change its Face, Upper body, Lower body and shoes either.

= so you see it does !

and btw

https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic119914-299-1.aspx?Highlight=quadruped

With the built-in characterization panel, users may convert external characters into iClone via FBX format. This means that the newly converted characters will be able to work with thousands of iClone motion files, and use powerful motion tools like body puppeteering, MixMoves and Kinect mocap to animate any character from DAZ, Maya, 3ds Max and others in a heartbeat!"

that's true !

Exemple https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1F8ElU5G84

I have never easier animate my own charakter . Xchange works for me . I love it :)

The coming facial expression is great for iClonmovies, but I think not appropriately for all gameengines, because morph based. But I'm looking forward

By Dream Cutter - 14 Years Ago

EDIT: I decided to chill on this... I don't want suck the wind from sails from those who are soaring. I'm not about that.:D

By vidi - 14 Years Ago

Sorry english is not my language , I do not understand your post. :hehe:

By bluemidget666 - 14 Years Ago

Wow cool model Vidi howdid you make the vid of it ? I am having real codec problems with Iclone.

I am also waiting for facial animation for my character Bob_Low

He is called Bob_Low as he is very low polly comming in at about 1meg with textures :w00t: Thanks to sorting out uvs...

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

Man that'd be an awesome Christmas present kupo!

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

By vidi - 14 Years Ago

Wow cool model Vidi

The figure is made by jif3d
I have only overworked the rig and the weights.

I love your Bob. He is so cute !:kiss: Also the moving is great ! I like toon Charakter very much. I'm so glad we have xchange and the possibility to create and animate in Iclone such nice creatures now :)

By RobertoColombo - 14 Years Ago

And here we are: end of 2012.
And Reallusion has missed again the deadline for this promised update... promised in JUNE 2012... exactly SIX MONTHS AGO!
Any attempt to justify this delay is simply washy.

They advertised something different from what is the SW able to do and put quite little effort to patch it. Not fare at all.
The best thing to move them on would be to ask, everybody, the money back for 3DX5.

By Corvega - 14 Years Ago

Had I known it would take this long for the upgrade I wouldve waited. The whole purpose of getting the ver 5 was to have the ability for facial animation

By continuing to push back , Reallussion will lose credibility

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

I fell kidding since 9 month.
But for RL this update open the box of Pandorra ..
and so they want delay this as long as possible

Robert

By msstowers - 14 Years Ago

By RobertoColombo - 14 Years Ago

Because I am quite familiar about technical projects and bug fixes, I can tell that if a project is considered at high priority, then a lot of resources are put on it, in order to catch the time-to-market... or fix a.s.a.p. a problem.
If the project is not considered high priority, that won't happen.
So... let's answer one simple question: how many new products, plug-ins, or content packs did RL churn out during the 3DX5 "bug fix" period ?
The answer to this question should also clarify what the level of priority put by RL to the 3DX5 patch...

By Dream Cutter - 14 Years Ago

msstowers (12/29/2012)

I'm putting my 2 cents in the conversation and I'm not defending anything but I understand software development and I've read forum posting here and on other software company's forums about complaining on bugs.

1) It had been indicated that the update has been moved back to January. What this means to me is probably they are having unforeseen bugs popup.

Huh? In modern software development QC teams are always testing the last build with fixes being applied for the next internal revision. When the list of features has been met, the final tested revision is packaged for distribution as a version update to the published software. Project management assures that the product is rolled out on time, in accordance with priorities. So there is no such thing as UNFORESEEN BUGS in software development. More likely bugs were predictable, however each presents its own challenge. However..there is such a thing inadequate testing and project management.

2) Since the software wasn't originally built to utilize morphs from the poser and the daz3d universe my guess it isn't an easy task since they aren't building the software from scratch. They are adapting old software to use something it wasn't originally made to do instead of building a software package around this. And because of this it could cause bugs in other areas of iclone and 3dxchange.

3DExchange 5 was conceived by the developer and specified by marketing. 3DEXCHANGE does not import Poser/DAZ models directly, however its understandable that you may believe this in their marketing. 3DExchange 5 imports FBX format, a 3D modeling and animation specification now administered by Autodesk. FBX supports vertex and bone based figure animation and various third party apps export and parametric and weight mapped animation successfully as .FBX This includes DAZ and Messiah3D. Poser does not. Ultimate Unwrap 3D is the best value 3d format converter I have found for .FBX

3) They combined the morph update with probably bug fix updates and because of the delay may have something to do with that they are trying to release the update with as little bugs as possible so they don't have the wave of complainers complaining about problems and such they are having with the previous updates.

Vertex animation is not some mystical accomplishment, - its far simpler to implement morphing than the bone and muscle smoothing techniques presented by the various rigging schemes. I don't think they are going after dynamic sub-D with it are they?? :D That WOULD BE COOL then they could support genesis native! Common Vertex animation or morphing, should have been considered and planned early in the evolution of iClone/3DX design have and continually improved. Hey they got Monster Workshop working so this should be a piece of cake. Its just a data mapping exercise. (yeah I'm intentionally baiting a comment from the developers) :P

Personally in my opinion I would prefer something to be release that works and not give me more headache I have with 3D animation than release the update and have 10 million updates after it because problems popped up after release.

Again this is my opinion and I'm not taking any ones sides on the matter I just know by frequenting forums from software companies and reading post after post about problems people are having but written in insulting ways that I just got to the point that:

"I want something that works not something that was release because people demanded it."

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

@Dream Cutter+msstowers

"I want something that works not something that was release because people demanded it."

than wait with use. There is no reason, why your must be the first.. :P
But i want the update ... NOW !
9 month of waiting are enough !

Robert

By RobertoColombo - 14 Years Ago

Totally agree with RB3006 and Dream Cutter.
Pls, let's stop to try to find washy excuses...!!!

NINE month delay... a bit of too much, ins't it, Peter (RL) ??? :angry:

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

While I see what you guys are saying, I have to agree with msstowers.

Even with testers, there's no real way to test EVERY possible problem in a piece of software where you can get models from virtually anywhere.

Yes, FBX CAN hold morphs, but that doesn't mean 3DX could officially read them. 3DX4 could import FBX files, but that doesn't mean it can read the camera and light data.

Cinema4D can export FBX, but not with point morphs initially.

To soay there's no such things as unforseen bugs is ridiculous.

While I'd like the update to come out right now, I'd prefer them to have it working solid and properly. There are othercompanies that release things right on time and you can tell it's rushed. (game companies do this a lot and it shows (Oh hey Fable III).

I'm willing to wait for the update.

This being said... don't take too long RL, you've already pushed it back two or three times. If it's that much trouble, then maybe you should've reworked the FBX import from scratch... or just have a different panel for morphs in iClone.

DAZ characters already have facial expression morphs, so you don't have to make those. Just give us a morph panel both in 3DX and iCLone and we'll be ok. (At least I think we will.

By Dream Cutter - 14 Years Ago

9 months - wow, hallf the typical s/w product expected life-cycle.

It was my impression from the marketing that the ability to export iclone figures and animations as game ready "fbx" figures was the general expectation of the consumer. The marketing.of iClone 3DExchange 5 Pipeline certainly leads one to think it would be possible. I mean seriously what is the advantage to game developers if the 3d game figures exported do not have the same speech and emotion capabilities as their 2D counterparts in the video segments ? Why need iclone at all then, you could go from modeller to Maya (or DS etc.) to game using off the shelf bhv animation tools. Especially considering that the competing 3d animation and development tools are advancing so fast that the convenience value is offset by the lack of flexibility and ability to keep up with the demands of the current game engine capabilities.

With respect to the expectation of the the DAZ (and Poser) figure import capability, I think its reasonable to expect that since Collada and FBX does support morphs, and the ability to animate exports of these figures in iClone movie scenes as interchangeable actors with other iclone assets is suggested to the consumer.

It that's not the consensus of the users ~ well guess we can take as that as a clue and set our expectations on ver 6.0 :hehe:

Footnote:
It may be true that testers don't need to test every possibility. Actually now days its standard practice for the software developer to precisely tell the testers what to test. They actually designate the test parameters - often in the code comment or version control system tools. Its taken to the extreme in practices like TDD (Test Driven Development). Its the only way some teams could afford to make it work and not "break the system" at the same time.

By animagic - 14 Years Ago

"There are no unforeseen bugs." That's a good one. We only have foreseen bugs, to annoy the customer...:w00t:

By elektron2kim - 14 Years Ago

I don't think we wait in vein, but maybe the development team needs a bit more moral backup from around here to even care for sitting at the screen working at it.

I mean "don't bite the hand which feeds you and be nice to your mom, grand parents and associates" - sort of thing.

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

@Dream Cutter
with respekt to your long long article. I think, you dont need or you are not interested to this feature and so it´s easy to say ... Hey RL, take your time, ... it´s great like always.

And i say ... NO ... nothing is great. It´s a brazenness !!!

Robert

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

To Dream Cutter:

You act like facial animation is all iClone is good for.

Fun fact, Unity3D game engine couldn't support face morphs for a while and it STILL might now, but it can use FBX and people get tons of use out of it.

Yeah ok, iClone can't import or export facial animations... however, if you have another program thtat can, why not just do the body animations in iClone, and map those back to a version of the character in DAZ or Poser or wherever and put the facial animations on there?

That's what I'm doing since it looks like this feature might be a while.

iClone still has plenty of other awsome animation tools and those shouldn't be over looked. Facial animation isn't a MUST in every game and iClone is very easy and fun to animate with.

Now don't get me wrong, I want this feature to come out two month ago, bu since it's not out yet, I'll find an alternative way... which is simple to do now that 3DX can export animations.

Try it, import your DAZ character into iClone, animate the body and stuff, THEN import the animation file (in FBX) back into DAZ Studio and map it to the version of the charater. THEN put on facial animations there if you want... or put the animation on the character in a program that fully supports dynamic hair and all that.

See, 3DX5 is pretty darn useful when you think about it.

To the Devs:

I'm sure you guys are doing all you can and I look forward to showing you what your efforts were worth.

By vidi - 14 Years Ago

3DX5 is pretty darn useful when you think about it.

exactly ! :)

By RobertoColombo - 14 Years Ago

elektron2kim (12/30/2012)

Sorry, but we are the ones feeding the SW Programmers... we paid, so, we have all the rights to require that they sit in front of their PC and get going to do what we paid for.
Again, to me it is crystal clear that this project is considered as low-priority in RL.
Different way would have been if they would not have got the money...

RL should clarify and justify this enormous delay and give a real deadline, or have the guts and the honesty to reimburse their customers.

By Dream Cutter - 14 Years Ago

No question about it, the Iclone+3DExchange5 Pipeline is a multi-faceted application with compelling features for almost anyone working in 3D animation.

That said, I was sharing my personal expectations as a 3d entertainment developer. My views probably are not typical of i-clone movie maker as my interest in publishing my work in 3D. I make 3D interactive scenes (HTML5, WebGL, PDF & Flash based 3D engines) for web-sites and some games. I use E-On Vue, SimLab3D & Coppercube to render scenes.

Although I do model, rig and animate my own figures & props, I use licensed third party 3D assets to broaden my options and increase the scale of projects beyond what I can accomplish as a solo developer. I was introduced to IClone & 3DExchange via advertisement that said somthing to my brain like "hey this iclone 3d exchange pipeline thing can give you access to hundreds of ready made figures, props and animation for export as fbx figures. And with this Kinex thingy and plug in you can easily create your own mocap." So I check out some of the iclone vids and start to drool. I look at the conversation animations and these have particular appeal for my needs. My thought process goes like this "I can handle fbx, sounds great - its got to be cheaper than hundreds of my man hours re-producing the wheel. How much does it cost...? " I should have said where do I enlist - as most of these complex apps go - its more of an adventure than a procurement. :w00t:

I am not really in a position to comment on the 2d movie making aspect of I clone, as other than using it to view animations and configure figures I have not used it (to render movies). I was planning to use it for opening sequences and for 2d animated materials on video display screens, windows etc in 3d scenes.

Most 3D engines will produce 2d video of the anbimation, some real time ray trace and some not, however you may not have the built in scene, light and set tools like iclone. Generally this involves a lot of side effort to get ready and I can see this being a time saver in making video.

Anyway - that's just my view on the progress. I expected head & mouth mocap and facial animation to be working when I bought it. I was disappointed upon first try to see it didn't even have the interface tools to support these expectations, and after applying loads of patches and reading the forum to see what's up, I recognize these features were planned but the product shipped half-baked. I am not too pissed with this, recognizing its considered par for the industry, although after recognizing that its been 9mos and no patch in sight discouragement sets in.

By Peter (RL) - 14 Years Ago

Thank you all for the continued feedback on the 3DXchange 5.2 update.

We really do understand the frustration over the delayed release and sincerely apologise for the inconvenience these delays are causing.

The bottom line is, and I'm sure you understand, is that we can't release an update until it is fully working and all the features promised do what they are supposed to do.

I can assure you no one is sitting here with a finished product saying "I know, let's annoy the hell out of everyone by sitting on this for a couple of months". Sadly an estimated release date was given and it was wrong, quite badly wrong as it turned out.

So with regards to giving release information I have a question for everyone. Basically we have two ways of handling release plans. One is to say nothing until it is ready for release and then announce it. The second is to give an estimated release schedule, but realise that this causes unhappiness when the schedule is not met.

So the question is what would you guys prefer? I have always been the one who pushes to give information on what we have planned, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the better option is keep a lid on things until they are ready for release. What do you think?

By rampart - 14 Years Ago

Keep it to yourself and assure everyone you are working on it, that is when you have been stupid enough to discuss a planned release date.

So, to start you should have just said... we're working on it.

Most of us would have appreciated the truth to start that facial animation was not working. Then we could only blame ourselves.

Very important, don't leave out material things and then sell the product.

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

Hi Peter,
RL announce the facial update to have a argument more to sale his product.
And i know, companies want sale there products. So RL announce the facial feature as fact, release in April 2012 to win more clients.
So far ... it´s ok.
But RL only announce and promise, but RL do not deliver.
For me thats not a question, which kind of information i prefer ( I prefer true messages)
it´s a question of RL company policy.
I´m very disappointed of RL and RL can be sure, RL lost not only my trust, they also lost my money.
Robert

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

I don't think a release date is needed if it's still in the beginning. Just say "We're working on it." From time to time you could give updates... like a monthly dev blog post saying "Hey so this is what is going on here this month." and then maybe another one another month saying something like "Sooo... yeah we were about to announce a release date... then we imported a character and THIS [image of facial animation gone terribly wrong] happened... so it might be a bit longer, but we're still trying to figure it out. Stay tuned."

I know Unity3D does this and it is very handy.

That way, you don't have to give a release date, but people are still aware that you're working on it.

Some game companies such as Pentevision (makers of the DJ MAx rhythm game) and Square Enix (makers of Final Fantasy) are now doing this and the fans love it.

By bluemidget666 - 14 Years Ago

Do we know just what we are going to be getting with facial animation ? I mean is it going to be daz studio to Iclone facial animation or something else ? .. This feature is needed one way or another (for me at least) so as long as they get it right I can wait and live ..

By Peter (RL) - 14 Years Ago

rampart (12/30/2012)

So, to start you should have just said... we're working on it.

Well from my experience it normally goes like this.

Q. When will *Insert product* be released?

A. We're working on it.

Q. That's not an answer. Approximately when it will it be ready?

A. Well it's currently scheduled for around July.

At this point user removes the words "scheduled" and "around" from memory and just remembers July. July comes and product is not quite ready. User says "Hey you promised it was going to be released in July".

And to be honest I don't think continued use of "We're working on it" will go down too well. I will be making a note of your names just in case I need to remind you it was your idea. :P

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

Well from my experience it normally goes like this.

Q. When will *Insert product* be released?

A. We're working on it.

Q. That's not an answer. Approximately when it will it be ready?

A. Well it's currently scheduled for around July.

At this point user removes the words "scheduled" and "around" from memory and just remembers July. July comes and product is not quite ready. User says "Hey you promised it was going to be released in July".

And to be honest I don't think continued use of "We're working on it" will go down too well. I will be making a note of your names just in case I need to remind you it was your idea. [Tongue]

Hey Peter,
this is not TRUE.
Why you tell untruth?
It´s a shame, that i have make no screenshoots from RL announcements.
With such statements you lost also your credibility.
Robert

Little edit: for curtesty i take the word untruth... not lies

By RobertoColombo - 14 Years Ago

Peter,

do you know how much will my company pay (as a penalty) one of our biggest customer for every 6 months delay on an agreed (i.e. signed-off) deadline ?
No, you don't, and I can't obviously disclose this, but I can tell you that it is quite an amount of money.
You, RL, should thanks that we are "just" small customers, which can be cheated (sorry for the word, but that's how I think most of us feel), without having big fall-outs on your business.

Now, instead of answering your questions (which, to me, sound like a attorney argumentation, trying to get out from the angle by moving the focus to something else, rather than really hitting the issue), I wished that you could answer my questions:

1. how come that in the last 9 months so many new products & content packs were churned out from RL, whereas nothing has moved on this promised patch ?
2. Is this patch really so incredibly complicated, compared to Crazy Talk 7, Monster workshop, new iClone avatars, etc. etc. (if you wish, you can help me to complete the list...) ?
3. If it really is (so complicated), then why did RL Marketing dept. advertised this feature ? What kind of R&D to Marketing to Sales communication channels do you have out there ? Or should we call it "Marketing strategy". i.e. "we can do 100 but we sell as if we could do 1000" ? So, what will you advertise next time ? A SW that can read our brains and translate into 3D movements?
4. How many people are really working on this patch (I know already the answer... but I am still curious to read what you would answer, but the standard "Many people 'round the clock")
5. What RL expects to be our willing to buy the next product, once we know that the advertisement of the product features can't be trusted ?

By bluemidget666 - 14 Years Ago

do you know how much will my company pay (as a penalty) one of our biggest customer for every 6 months delay on an agreed (i.e. signed-off) deadline ?
No, you don't, and I can't obviously disclose this, but I can tell you that it is quite an amount of money.
You, RL, should thanks that we are "just" small customers, which can be cheated (sorry for the word, but that's how I think most of us feel), without having big fall-outs on your business.

I am not been funny with you when I say this, but if you are losing large amounts of money every 6 months due to lack of facial animation you could lease 3DSmax for £595 a year and have much better control over facial animation.

Just a Idea ..

By Dream Cutter - 14 Years Ago

For me, I think the support and forum communication has been fine. I think product descriptions (marketing) & packaging/bundling could be made much more clear, especially to new unfamiliar customers.
IClone has a ton to offer, however its not very clear by the product name, its description and over the top videos. The videos sure pack a punch in terms of eye candy but these distract and some of the key points are lost. Its kind of overwhelming. This industry is full of confusing app suites, and most of their marketing web sites confuse noobs as to where to start so IClone is not alone with this.
I stared at I-Clone banner ads in Cornucopia for a year and ignored it thinking it was some "photoshop plug in" to clone objects or something. Had no idea it was a complete 3d animation suite. Even after visiting the Re-allusion site, I found it neat, a bit overwhelming and something to check out "at another time" as it was not at all apparent what the products were all about. It took a personal referral and follow through examination of 3D Exchange Pipeline ads before I began to see the potential. But I was in the dark on the details and decided to see what it does after purchasing. I did not give the trial a run through and accept the consequence. I am not unhappy with my iClone purchase am glad to support the evolution.

By RobertoColombo - 14 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (12/30/2012)

I do not think you really got through what I wrote.
1st of all, my company business is completely uncorrelated with RL or 3D.
(...and given all the iClone bugs & patches and 3DX5 delay, I would NEVER set up a business based on the latest RL products!)

I just brought an example to show how other companies treat their customers (and I can tell you that we do NOT miss our deadlines!) compared to what RL did with 3DX5.
That's it.

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

RobertoColombo (12/30/2012)

bluemidget666 (12/30/2012)

Based on this, you're assuming you know exactly what happened with the update. You're also assuming that they're just lagging for no reason.

For a totally equal comparison, it'd be like your company doing something, then some terrible thing happening at the last minute that slowed things down.

See, THIS is why the monthly dev blog idea is a good one. While there's not a solid release date, you can still get AN IDEA of what's going on... the good and the bad.

And Peter's right because I've seen it happen before. Maybe not exactly with this update, but it's happened in the past and that IS how people react.

This is just my personal feelings here, but your "UGH ITS NOT OUT YET!" coupled with "UGH EVERYTHING U SAY IS LIZE UGH Y U NO HAV UPDATE UGH OTHER COMPANIES DONT DU DIS!!!" is really getting irritating. He said they're still working on it and it got delayed.

If you REALLY need it THAT HAMMIN' BAD right NOW, then use somethign else. I've posted a solution already.

It's not just facial animation I'm hoping for... ti's MORPH DATA IN GENERAL. While it's important, it's not a show stopper.

I'm a paying customer just like you and I want the update just as much as everyone else, but can you PLEASE stop your whining and be patient.

Yes, I said it.

[size=3]let the rage begin[/size]

By djmulcahy - 14 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (12/30/2012)

Thank you all for the continued feedback on the 3DXchange 5.2 update.

We really do understand the frustration over the delayed release and sincerely apologise for the inconvenience these delays are causing.

The bottom line is, and I'm sure you understand, is that we can't release an update until it is fully working and all the features promised do what they are supposed to do.

I can assure you no one is sitting here with a finished product saying "I know, let's annoy the hell out of everyone by sitting on this for a couple of months". Sadly an estimated release date was given and it was wrong, quite badly wrong as it turned out.

So with regards to giving release information I have a question for everyone. Basically we have two ways of handling release plans. One is to say nothing until it is ready for release and then announce it. The second is to give an estimated release schedule, but realise that this causes unhappiness when the schedule is not met.

So the question is what would you guys prefer? I have always been the one who pushes to give information on what we have planned,but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the better option is keep a lid on things until they are ready for release. What do you think?

My concern is this: RL has promised things above what they may be capable of delivering.

When 3Dxchange 5 came out, I picked it up with the promise that it would be able to do what I wanted done, and that's get the abundance of DAZ Genesis characters into iClone and other software packages, with no limitations in animation.

Since then, there have been multiple delays, and I watch the difficulties DAZ themselves are having with Genesis characters, and I can't help but wonder if this just isn't going to happen any time soon.

Ultimately, if the update is released as does as promised, I think very few of us will have any reason to complain. But you've got to understand... most of the complaining is probably being done by folks who already purchased this product in good faith, believing that RL would shortly update it to work as promised. You've also got to understand, that for a great many of us, there really wasn't a huge reason to upgrade to 3DX5 without facial animation, and we're still waiting for that... again in good faith.

As for your question, I like to have information, and I don't typically get overly upset when "stuff happens." But on the other hand, you have to recognize that the sales team made certain promises to generate profit, and if the final product doesn't match the hype, or it takes forever to finally get there, there's going to be some heat to deal with.

The idea that facial animation was close to completion was something I took as truth when I made this purchase. Had I known that wasn't the case, I would still be holding onto my money.

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

Hm... I think people are getting upset because they ASUUMED something (without the produc actually saying anything about it) and got disappointed when what they assumed would be there wasn't there.

I and others knew that iClone and 3DX didn't take morph data from the getgo. This was also discussed on the forums.

While RL should've pointed out that facial and morphs werent' there at the start (maybe they did and I missed it) It's as much your falt as it is there's since you didn't do your homework first.

This is a ~$200+ purchase. Why would you spend that money on assumptions? That's what trial periods are for.

By djmulcahy - 14 Years Ago

Dreamcube017 (12/30/2012)

Oh, no. Let's not go there, now.

RL made it very, very clear that facial animation was extremely close to being implemented. I took them at their word. I asked questions on the forums regarding expectations for the final product, and received official answers.

I guess I should have "assumed" that nearly a year after my purchase and almost seven months after this feature update was to be implemented, I would still be sitting on a product that hasn't been updated.

Again, I understand things happen, but please don't make it sound like we simply didn't "do our homework" and somehow misinterpreted what RL really intended. RL intended to generate sales by pushing facial animation as a soon to be updated feature of 3DX5. Don't pretend that's not what happened.

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

True, I did expoect it to come out a lot sooner than it did... again, this is why the dev blog idea would be good. It'd clear up things like this.

SOmething similar happened with a PS Vita game and everyone (including the company) was expecting it to come out on a certain day, but then something happened and the game didn't come out until a month or two later.

However, the fans weren't that upset because the company came right out on theif facebook page and said, "Hey guys you'll have to forgive us as we were REALLY hoping to get this game out right now, but something very unexpected happened and that delayed things abit. Again, really sorry about this. We'll keep you posted." And then about two to four weeks later said "We're still working on getting the issue resolved. Looks like it's harder than we thought."

This way, the fans/cuystomers see that the company is trying their best to get it worked out and that they care.

It wasn't just "Yeah we said July but now it's November so please be patient." They also keep people updated on the general status of the game.

This may not make everyone happy, but it'd give people a cleaer view of what's kind of going on.

By djmulcahy - 14 Years Ago

Dreamcube017 (12/30/2012)

True, I did expoect it to come out a lot sooner than it did... again, this is why the dev blog idea would be good. It'd clear up things like this.

You may have a point there.

I mean, I'm not really MAD. I'm more... CONCERNED.

I've watched what's happened with the development of Carrara 8.5, because I would like to use Genesis and DAZ content for a lot of my projects, and it's been at a total standstill for about a year and a half, almost exclusively because of Genesis. When I heard that 3dX5 would let me use Genesis in iClone, and if I waited for just a little longer, it would have facial animation, too, I was sold.

But it's still not working right in Carrara, and it's apparently still not working right in iClone, and I've really got to start to wonder if this product I purchased is going to do what I bought it to do, period.

If the problem is just some minor tweaking to get things squared away, no problem! I'll wait.

If the problem is that things just aren't working the way RL expected them to, and yeah, this genesis thing is a lot tougher to figure out than we expected, so let's all dial back expectations...
Yeah, I'll be mad then. Because I already paid for this thing.

So you're right, communication is big. Is this latest delay just to smooth out the features a little, or it it because there are significant problems that can't be ironed out? Is January a solid time frame now, or will we hit January and be told, Oh wait, maybe April?

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

Yeah I'm wondering the same thing.

Although not sure why Carrara is having a problem DAZ Studio is free now so people could just use that and then export the character.

Likewise though, you COULD use 3DX5 Pipeline to import the DAZ character without the facial animation, just do all the body animations, and export the animations out as FBX files. Then in DAZ Studio or another program, import the FBX with the character model rigged WITH the facial morphs, THEN bring the FBX animations onto that character. Since it's the exact same character, it should work correctly.

Yeah, this is kinda blah, but if you wanted to use another renderer anyway, this would be the way to do it as of right now.

So 3DX5 wouldn't be a complete waste in that respect.

But I understand what you're saying. Sorry if I offended you.

It just seemed like people were just yelling and not listening to what Peter had to say. That's how it seemed to me anyway. Well let's just hope it's out in January.

By djmulcahy - 14 Years Ago

No, no, not offended. Thank you, though.

Just making my case, that's all.

And so far I'm not upset at RL or Peter or anything else going on. I'm okay with the delays so long as what was promised is delivered. Crap happens.

But maybe we should revisit this come the middle of February, and we'll see how happy we all are then. Another delay or three could change my mind.

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

Very true.

But if they come out with it and say "Ok guys we got it so you can import any morphs you want with your FBX files", then I'll be like "ALL IS FORGIVEN!"

So let's hope that happens.

By RobertoColombo - 14 Years Ago

@Dreamcube

Sorry, but you are NOT in the position to tell me whether I should stop complaining.
If this makes you irritated, sorry, that's your problem.
Who do you think you are ?
The God of the Forum Moderators ?

As you can see in this thread, I am not the only one upset around here... and we all have a very good motivation, already repeated 1 Million time: we feel cheated.
It is not a matter of the fact that we may urgently need this update or not.
It's a fact that we paid for something clearly advertised and never released, after 9 months.

And, yes, I have enough experience to "assume" that RL did not put too much focus on this product update (which does NOT mean they did not work on it at all... again, you changed what I wrote and translated it in something silly. Not that fair, man).

You may believe that RL has been hardly working on this for 9 months in a row, putting all their best SW developers on this project. Well... I do not get "irritated" about your opinion. It may sound a bit naive to me, but that's your idea and I respect it.

On my side instead, I prefer to let RL know that their customer are not that happy...

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

After reading through the thread a bit, I realize you do have a point.

Sorry about that.

Although I think that monster pack was kind of the beginning of sorts. At least for morphs.

I'd REALLY like them to get this morphs update out, but I'll admit, I DO like the plugin idea. The physics toolbox is pretty handy. It'd also be neat of they made the plugin development open to the publci so others could start creating plugins and stuff. That'd be awesome.

By himemiko - 14 Years Ago

I know, and said again.

RL does not announced even once, "facial animation is done by the vertex animation"
Of course, Never better than vertex animation is to be implemented to 3DX5 (and iC5):P
but I think that will need to change to make iClone's base system.:hehe:

and RL has presented a system that already operate the "facial animation" by adding New Bones (or replacing node names and those bone's control Range settings)

RL has announced interested in "Morphing Animation" only until now.

That want more for RL is not a mistake.
But should not be criticize if RL does not meet the expectations.

RL is only guilty about being late that Implement "facial animation by 3DX5's Adding/Replace facial bone control system" :ermm:

By Dream Cutter - 14 Years Ago

3D Vertex Animation = Morph.

Google "iclone morph" see 4th link result:

http://www.reallusion.com/iclone/3dx_features_Objout.asp

Note third bullet. Also last newsletter described how vertex animation was used to create Monster Workshop.

By rampart - 14 Years Ago

Caveat Emptor = buyer beware

Sadly, this whole thing has played out with other RL content as well.

I recently bought the super deal for FaceFilter 3, then the day after I bought it RL came out with an additional MakeUp Pro thing for additional $50. That just spoke right to me, "What you bought was the bait, not a complete product".

Made me mad as a hornets nest.

I bought the 3DXchange 4 promotion to Ex5, which I thought would be a competent complete product at least very soon. My expectations align with others who thought the same.

Nope... still not complete, but to be fair, yes I have been able to do a bit more with it than Ex4.

So, here is my take on RL promotions. I am pretty well persuaded to wait to purchase anything promoted items from RL, until I have been able to read some positive feedback from other users.

I think people interested in RL products are getting smart to RL marketing stunts.

They are realizing that sumptuous turkey they think they are buying is probably a stinking little chicken. :w00t:

Happy New Year!

By animagic - 14 Years Ago

FaceFilter 3 is complete in itself. The other thing is just a content pack, which may or may not be useful.

By Peter (RL) - 14 Years Ago

RB3006 (12/30/2012)

Hi RB,

What isn't true?

My post was meant to be a light hearted example of the general questions we receive about product releases. It wasn't referring to the 3DXchange 5.2 update and the July date was just a random date. I think you misunderstood my post. :rolleyes:

By Peter (RL) - 14 Years Ago

RobertoColombo (12/30/2012)

Peter,

do you know how much will my company pay (as a penalty) one of our biggest customer for every 6 months delay on an agreed (i.e. signed-off) deadline ?

Hi Roberto,

I understand your point but we have never given a guaranteed date for the release of the 3Dxchange 5.2 update. We have only given estimates, which granted were off by a considerable amount in this case.

Personally I always try to use words like "scheduled" and "planned" but as I mentioned earlier these words are often forgot and the date is seen as concrete.

The dates originally given were posted in good faith based on the estimates we had at the time. I think if you look back at past product releases, there have been delays but not quite to this extent. We did make a mistake on the dates and we are truly sorry for the disappointment and inconvenience caused. We will certainly try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

By rampart - 14 Years Ago

Animagic

I understand that. It was the way it was done. THere was no disclosure in anything I read about a Makeup Pro content or pending release of it.

Then it was just there the next day. You think RL didn't know what they were doing. They concealed it until they had milked their promotion of the FF2 to FF3 thing.

It was wrong to do that,and it was sneaky "gollum" thing to do. They probably spent couple days just preparing the advertisements prior to the release.

No way they didn't know it. RL developed that pack along with the Face Filter and decided they were giving us too much. At the last minute they decided to sneak it in after they had done all their promotion of the FF2 to FF3 pack.

What we are experiencing is probably the result of some employee gone rogue, and his/her actions will end up hurting RL. It's not a new thing, but instead of defending it RL needs to deal with it.

I took down the Gollum picture. I thought it was too negative. LOL

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

Hi RB,

What isn't true?

My post was meant to be a light hearted example of the general questions we receive about product releases. It wasn't referring to the 3DXchange 5.2 update and the July date was just a random date. I think you misunderstood my post. [Rolleyes]

Hi Peter,
sorry, sometime i can read between the lines, and sorry, but your statement regarding the update is slippery like statements of politician.
In the end you explain, thats not your problem, if user believe in your announcements. :D wow

In june you suggest me in a post (after the next update postpone), RL only iron out some tiny trifles, release will be in a few days.
Since month RL and you cheated with untruely annoncements through the forum.

This all remembers me to MOCAP.
Not only I was noting in this forum, MOCAP works not or only on a very low level.

Your statement after a year .....
Hey, what you want ... it works, but not as some expected ... :D wow
Great statement after a year and many announcements about a unbeatable tool for unlimited movements.

Sorry, but so you and RL lost you credibility. But there are enough believers , imbibing waiting for your next fantastic message. So you can continue and they will celebrate each word.
After 9 month I am tired regarding RL and yours announce and statements.

Happy New Year
Robert

By Dreamcube017 - 14 Years Ago

I was gonna say that I called this one a few pages back when I said expect it around January or February... but after further investigation... Peter ACTUALLY said this.

The next update to iClone is the 5.4 version due in January. iClone 6 is still a long way off.

Notice that this is NOT 3DXChange.

Although because they are tied so closely together, maybe they're hanging onto the 3DX update (5.2) so that the iClone 5.4 update can come out.

A possible reason could be because even though the 5.4 update might be ready, it might not work with the current version of iClone, so you still wouldn't be able to use it... which kind of makes sense if you're doing all the facial and morph stuff in iClone that you brought from 3DX.

Notice that iClone was updated when the last 3DX version came out.

Although I wish they would've posted here and said something like "Hey guys, even though the 5.2 update is ready, it does not properly work with the current version of iClone, so we're afraid you'll have to wait till iClone 5.4 which is due in January."

Yes it's a delay, but at least than you'd have a solid reason WHY and you'd KNOW that the 5.2 update is ready. That's also probably why it took so long... because they had to modify iClone... So under this theory, they COULD give us the update now, but it wouldn't work with our current iClone so we'd have to wait anyway... and it'd be totally fair too since they were just announcing the iClone 5.4 update.

But again note that "DUE in January." That is NOT the same as "It WILL be in January." Keep that in mind.

By animagic - 14 Years Ago

I think you can either waste a lot of energy getting upset about things that have not yet been released or you can work with what there currently is. This has nothing to do with "being a believer", but with what you want to invest your time in.

The penalty thing is out of context; there is no contract between us and RL that states the updates shall be delivered at a particular time. In fact, RL is not obligated to update the software at all, but they do, and implement many of the suggestions that have been put forward in this forum.

I own a professional music program (GigaStudio) and from one day to the next the company that owned it (Tascam) decided to stop all development, leaving customers who invested thousands with a piece of abandonware. Now that is bad and a reason to be upset, boycott the company, but at the end of the day there is no recourse for the customers. The company simply ignores the complaints, which is easy to do.

You may not like the way Peter (RL) handles things, which I think is unwarranted, but you do get a response at least.

By animatom - 14 Years Ago

Jesus, over and over again the same bloody story.
I'm not happy with some Reallusion's business decisions also, and some of my plans suffer costly delays because of these things, but I don't feel cheated. I believe that Reallusion work best they can.
It is the same thing with any software we use. Some promises, some half deliverance, some bugs, some bad timings, few bad surprises. And few good, of course.
Live with it.
Or better yet, try to make good movie with what you have. You don't have morphs. Well, find a way. There ARE ways. You want it with two mouse clicks? Find a solution including two more freeware software and 6 mouse clicks and it will work.
What, to many mouse clicks? Oh, God, some more time spend on learning? Find a bloody time. Find a solution. Who knows, maybe in process you will find a clue what animation is in the first place.
Many of us, including me, make half shit of half baked movies because we didn't scratch a surface of what iClone is capable for.
Whoever think that lack of some particular feature is reason why he or she didn't yet make spectacular movie - think again. Shit with morphs will also be shit, only morphed. Whoever is capable to make good stuff, it will make good movie in Notepad.
Happy new year.
:)

By RB3006 - 14 Years Ago

@animatom
if i read your answer, i see two things.
1.You are not interested in the facial update.
2 You are a RL believer. Thats good, makes life easyer :)
So i can understand your statement. Take what you have and make your clips on a smartphone.
It´s absolute ok for me and i will respekt your philosophy
But i become annoying, if people which are not interested to the update makes their statement ... Hey RL, take your time, delay...great, no problem.. and so on.
Be sure, i know what i want to do and advice like "take what you have" is not necessary. (In the moment its the only way.)
But 9 month delay ... and than statements like Peters ... thats not ok for me.
Robert

By animatom - 13 Years Ago

RB3006, I know, I know...
I agree with most of the things, and as I said, some of my plans are delayed because of it, and I would really have use of facial morphs of DAZ characters, and my hard drives are full of projects on hold waiting for morphs implementations, but my rants about "take what you have and do something with it" is more philosophical urbi et orbi message to the world of glory iClone animators. :)
And some New Year Eve champagne, but this is off the topic...
In general - it will come. They will give (sell) us what we need. Then we will have some other demand. New bug will arrive. Future will be bright, but new clouds are on horizon. Never ending battle and so on and so on.
In the meantime, lets make movies. With champagne or not. ho ho ho

By Dreamcube017 - 13 Years Ago

FINALLY people that understand what I'm saying.

I want the same thing you guys do, but are you not happy with what IS there.

I want to do so many things with morphs, but since I can't, I just use iClone to do animations and do everything in something else.

Do I want it to come out NOW? YES!

Am I a bit worried that it's not out yet? A bit.

But do I feel cheated or ripped off? No.

If you bought 3DX5 for pure facial animation then I'm sorry to hear that, but there are still other things you can do with it.

By djmulcahy - 13 Years Ago

Dreamcube017 (1/1/2013)

FINALLY people that understand what I'm saying.

If you bought 3DX5 for pure facial animation then I'm sorry to hear that, but there are still other things you can do with it.

But... here's my problem....

I upgraded from 3DX4 to 5 for one purpose. I wanted to use to vast library of Genesis possibilities in iClone. I was perfectly happy with 3DX4, and 5 brought nothing else for me really, except being able to use Genesis in iClone. So, with the understanding, detailed by Reallusion, that facial animation was right around the corner, I grabbed 3DX5 and began to familiarize myself with it.

Saying that 3DX5 does other things is swell, but it doesn't do anything for me that would have caused me to upgrade, with the exception of bringing usable Genesis characters into iClone. So right now I've paid for an upgrade that's literally doing nothing for me, and I've been waiting for nearly a year with it now. Just saying.

Now, I'm not boiling or about to snap or anything, but that's the reality. And I'm sure there are many others in the same boat. Until the update arrives, there's no point for me having 5 over 4. And so I wait.

From my perspective, it just appears that the sales team was not on the same page with the development team, and pushed something as a virtual certainty that wasn't near the case. That's a problem.

By rampart - 13 Years Ago

I really haven't given alot of thought to it, but I just realized something that is definitely affecting RL.

RL has a new content pack up with DAZ characters, and they released another a while back.

I haven't bought any of the RL DAZ packs. I know they aren't fully workable within my iclone. I don't care if they were selling for $1.00. If you can't use it....it isn't a bargain at any price, and I sure can't use it.

the longer it takes

the less they makes..

Poetic, eh?

By W.VEEKE - 13 Years Ago

I red today a few post here

I am afraid that Many of you have too much expectations of the new 3d exchange. I do not think that the new release wil make facial animation to any random face. Maybe i am wrong but i think this will be only te case for standard faces such like genesis heads and maybe a few daz heads.
This is one of the biggest challenge for RL people. I think RL did a wonderfull job with the 3d exhange programs. This software is realy unique and one of a kind. What software is able to automatical skin random characters from all kind of 3d applications. Please let us support them.
So now and then it happens to everyone, you start something and on the way you find more and more obstacles. That makes that plans sometimes are changing. Sorry that my english is not so well. On moments like this it would be nice i could write in my native language.

Geduld siert de mens. Wachten zal beloond worden!

By Dreamcube017 - 13 Years Ago

W.WEEKE and rampart both have good points.

Alright, I will expect that the update will only bring facial animations to Genesis characters from DAZ and nothing more... nothing less. (Deep in my heart I want REAL morph imports, but if it's just facial, then it's just facial.) That IS what they said after all.

And yes I DID notice them pushing DAZ models and showing off the "look buy this on sale now and we'll have facial aniamation coming soon." ... I don't think that's a grand idea.

If you bought all the content in hopes of this and then it never came, man that sucks and isn't fair at all. For this reason, I can see why the people who got 3DX for facial stuff are upset.

I was hoping the same too, but I wasn't too upset because I was planning on importing characters from places other than DAZ as well.

The only way these DAZ content deals could really be useful now is if someone uses DAZ Studio.

Now if you have 3DX5 Pipeline, there IS a way around this... but if you don't, it really is kinda lame.

By Dreamcube017 - 13 Years Ago

Yep Sw000000p's right. There's no autoskinning in 3DX. Actually, RL got that characterization tool STRAIGHT from Autodesk if I'm not mistaken. It's the exact same one that's in Maya and Motion Builder... but targetded directly for iClone.

Man bringing in actual animation morphs WOULD be SUPER GOOD... oh well. You can't have everything.

By msstowers - 13 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/2/2013)[hrPlease Note:
RL could easily bring... NOT JUST DAZ Morphs.... but ALL "Vertex Aniamtion into iClone!

The optimal word "COULD"... would require RL to spend... BIG BUCKS to do so.

Wise of RL to WAIT untill is "TRULY READY!"

Thanks RL! :)

Maybe that will be added to version 6 of both where they could really rework the backend engine instead of trying to pretty much do a work around to make daz morphs work in a bone based engine. One could only hope. :)

Mike

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Hooooooooooo I so want Morphs and nooo bones ! I would love it to work like the monster workshop avatars . 8 basic morphs for the mouth to form words then a set a basic emotions for the face ... but sadly I think Wil Veeke is right, it is going to be Daz Genesis because thats what has been promised :)

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Aaaaa I was hoping to get away with not having to add bones to the face looking for the quick option again. So even with 3DX new facial features I am not going to be able to get my characters talking.

Well at least not yet ........

By Dreamcube017 - 13 Years Ago

Maybe you characterize the face the same way kupo?

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Create a simple User Interface:
Use Splines... Simple Rectangles or Squares! Link a Spline "Circle" to it!
Use the Circle to move for example "The Right Corner of the Mouth!"

...Create another Rectangle with a circle inside of it to controll the "Left side of the Mouth!
REPEAT until you Simple User Interface is Complete!

Do you mean attach a invisable sphere to parts of the mouth/head I would like to animate so when i rotate the sphere it would move the mouth/ head part..

Is it that simple ... :w00t:

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Draw out a few square and rectangle and create you OWN UI within MaX!
Then Use "Reaction Manager" (Fastest Way) to combine Morphs and Bone-Base Animation!

hA! I would still need to have added facial bones before I did this yes :P

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

I want to animate this guy

I might be able to make a rig in Carrera but not sure .. would love to have him talking

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Hi Swooop

Yeah I guessed it wouldnt be easy (never is) but I have just bought myself a set of books on modeling most are 3Dmax heavy which is good because I am really looking at some way of affording eaither max or maya.

We will ahve to see what RL brings to the table with 3DX5 upgrade.

Thanks for ya help Doood

By tparrington - 13 Years Ago

I'm in your shoes blue, and it's pretty hard and a lot of learning. It also looks like you might have made him (adorable by the way) in Sculptris. I love playing in sculptris, but I've found that those models are a nightmare particularly because of the tasselation when building the features. The models are really "dirty" inside, and when you rig them, and move parts, you'll find a lot of 'trailing' faces that are difficult to capture, but Blender does okay with it by using weight painting to grab those areas--to a point anyway. However, just trying to get the rid through 3dx in tact is -- well so far in my experience impossible. The figures come through as objects just fine, even with the texture maps from Sculptris applied in Blender. But not as fbx models.

By tparrington - 13 Years Ago

If I'm the "lady" you were referring to, I wasn't encouraging her to use that method... I was trying to discourage it. I've found Sculptris too, but know now that it is not the solution to modeling even if it is fun and you can make easy fun figures. They don't rig well at all.

By tparrington - 13 Years Ago

That's okay, I was just clarifying. And from the way I read it, he (or she, not sure) does not have Max, he said he's looking for a way to afford either Maya or Max. So he's working with programs that he can use now to learn. I understand that, but it can lead to problems too.

By tparrington - 13 Years Ago

Never said it wasn't. Hoping to have my own 3dsmax sometime this year.

By Dream Cutter - 13 Years Ago

bluemidget666 (1/3/2013)

I want to animate this guy

I might be able to make a rig in Carrera but not sure .. would love to have him talking

No problem to animate this model in Carrara, whether made in sculptris or not. Don't let the jive discourage you from trying to rig the model. I would probably use DS though. It can be rigged to walk, roll its eye and even speak, if not in iClone, certainly in other 3D animation apps. Even without Autode$k. I consider myself a beginner in figure animation and I figured out how to rig a figures face. Its no biggie, but it helps to get pointed in the right direction. Key to rigging any mesh starts to defining your mesh grouping boundaries effectively. I started with Scuptris mesh too, but if its not practical for use its easy to fix, or resurface. Not sure why skinning, or UV mapping is so mystical. If you get the concept that a mesh is a table of x-y-x 3d addresses (vertices) that are defined from a global and relative (hierarchy) perspectives, then you can see that by defining variations of this table in the 3d file by things such as bone, weight map, UV, keyframe,etc you can define what where and when and with which properties a particular 3D object should render. If you have never explored the insides of a 3D file, try opening a (small) .obj and its corresponding .mtl file which defines texture maps in notepad. You can examine how the file is constructed. This is generally how all 3d file formats are designed however most use XML or similar database structure to speed up processing. I point this out to noobs because it takes the mysticism out of the subject and emboldens one to explore further into the topic without fear of the unknown. BLENDER.org is a swiss army knife of (free) 3d tools, however like that tool its complex to use but it does about everything. This is where the bold may go. Milkshape and fragmosoft is where others may turn if Low Poly is thier thing, and DAZ and Poser and messiah 3D provide affordable rigging solutions too. I am sure I missed about a dozen other animation and rigging systems. Key is to look for FBX and or Collada compliant. BHV import capability will allow I Clone exported body animations to be applied.
If rigging collada style does not produce smooth joint movement, many animation apps support weight mapping or parametric offsets to smooth the joints. In effect this This is very simple to apply. Systems make it easy like DAZ DS Studio can even rig without groupings and can be wholly dependent on "painting" which polys are affected by which bone, and how much. You actually see the distortions on joints melt away as you paint smoothing polys on a tested joint. If you want to create a facial rig that works in standard 3D engines, its really not hard. However I do know how how to get one imported through 3DX that is compliant with IClone's cool facial and voice animations. That will require further additional translation between the FBX and IClone animation systems. Yet...

By animagic - 13 Years Ago

Dream Cutter, that was a clear and helpful overview, thanks for that. It encourages experimentation, which I always find a good way to learn.

By tparrington - 13 Years Ago

Thanks DreamCutter. I'll have to do some experimenting with other forms of rigging too. I've only used blender and find many sculptris models very difficult to rig there. Native Blender models aren't nearly as hard. Getting native Blender rigged models into iclone isn't necessarily difficult, although some still don't move over correctly, but those from Sculptris don't come well at all into this environment it seems. At least, that's been my experience so far, and my lack of overall experience is very likely the reason.

By Dream Cutter - 13 Years Ago

WRT unworkable meshes from Sculprtis et al. Yep, thats where re-topology comes in. Sometimes in modelling the initial mesh, if your modeller permits deformations of the initial primitive form where you can overlap or fold a surface it will trap a pocket and polygons will intersect. Because in figure modelling its often desirable to subdivide mesh resolutions and to stretch polygons, what seems like a insignificant mesh defect this will become very apparent during animation. Wile an overlap can be trimmed out, it will leave a hole needing to be fixed. This is where mesh repair tools like Meshlab (meshlab.org) come in handy. However if you want your model to look professional and have the most flexibility down stream in the pipeline, its worthwhile to take the time to retopologize the surface before painting and uv. Retopo is the process of defining a new low poly mesh that is optimum and well organized, usually in quads.
Several tools including the specialized Topogun help perform this by using the original mesh as a form mold to hammer out the new mesh structure upon. ZBrush and 3D Coat have auto-retopology tools that make this really simple, however the 3D-figurephlile "purist" may not appreciate the results. They like to hand stitch each poly in its perfect spot. This new mesh now can be subdivided by the modeler and regain its original detail. To paint a texture on the model use the a high definition of the retopolozied mesh (subdivide several times) an paint color and materials using a projection to photoshop (2d painting) or your modeller's (or UV tool) applications 3D paintset, depending on the features you have.
Also if a low poly figure is desired make that from your high resolution original after, so that you can paint in high detail and transfer the UV to the low poly mesh. You want to paint in high definition, and save off texture map for application to lower poly versions of the model. Therefore save your high poly model and its UV!
UV are the texture map coordinates that allow an image to be applied to the surface. 3D Modeling suites and specialzed applications like UVWrapper and Ultimate Unwrap 3D. (BTW UUW3D is super handy for FBX conversion, animation and orientation fixes to assist with 3DX imports.).

By RobertoColombo - 13 Years Ago

Regarding the .obj format, here is a very well done description:

http://www.martinreddy.net/gfx/3d/OBJ.spec

By tparrington - 13 Years Ago

Spent my learning time studying tuts on retopology --- brain burn... it hurts, it hurts. lmao

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Hi Tami

Yeah Re Topology is a pain, its one of the first things I got wrong when starting to model.

This is one of my first ever models

As you can see the topology is all over the place and comes in at over 36000 pollys. The problem was modeling in Zbrush at a very high polly count and then trying to reduce the pollys down to a level Iclone likes and this is the result (I am redoing these trees)

What I do now is I box model everything in Silo3d at a very low polly count

Then use smoothing to well smooth the obj while keeping the low polly count ... This is about 6000 pollys 3000 quads and when finished looks like this ..

Infact this model looks more detailed than the trees but has a fraction of the polly count.

I work on a high polly model in Zbrush for texturing and producing bump maps and apply all that to the low polly model this way I can avoid Retopology.

By Dreamcube017 - 13 Years Ago

Wow that looks really good.

Hey sw000000p, what do you mean? What's wrong with box modeling in Silo? Is that not what it should be used for?

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Good Job! You're starting to get the hang of it! You only left out "ONE" thing!
The answer lies in the reason you use "Silo" to "Box" model!

Hay Swooooooooop

You have me a bit lost, is this not the way to model low polly models? everything I have seen about modelling seems to say it is and a lot of what you have taught me point to this been right ?

I use Silo3d because it gives me control on how many pollys my model has, unlike Zbrush where I have to sort them out after modelling.

If you mean I should be doing it point by point to build up a model then yes maybe but I find that more of use when creating a character and usually only model one half and then mirror it.

If there is a better way to do this I am all ears. I am always looking for new ways to improve what I am doing :)

By kurzal - 13 Years Ago

Just curious, what's wrong with Blender as modelling tool?.. I'm not kidding and do not troll, I really wonder.

By vidi - 13 Years Ago

Very nice models @blue :)

I use Silo3d

Btw I have Now silo too, it was a holiday gift.:D

Say By To Silo! Build Your Skill-Set in MAX!

maybe because the Poygone in max are gilt ?:hehe:

By kurzal - 13 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/7/2013)

Please don't throw Salt in the Kool-Aid... Kurzal!

I don't. I was curious, I asked a question. Now I understand, thanks for the clarification. If I somehow offended you, my apologies again.

By vidi - 13 Years Ago

what's wrong with Blender as modelling tool?..

Blender is the most complicated way to do simple things

My goal is to create and not a challenge to use a program. I like the easy way :)

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Hay Swooooop

I get ya now .. but no, I am not running away from Max, I am not running to it .. I have Max and Maya (student versions) sat on my desk top max can do all the facial animation stuff I need and Maya has some very nice modelling tools. It would be so easy to use these for what I need but I can do nothing with the models afterwards. So until I can afford it, it sits there mocking me.

By animagic - 13 Years Ago

I see Silo is for sale right now for $109. So people here do like it? I may give myself a present.

By vidi - 13 Years Ago

I have my version from steam ,it was a special offer until 5 January.

But I think there is still cheaper as on the offical nevercenter website

http://store.steampowered.com/app/100400/

Here my first attempt with this app.

2D CTA Cherry to 3D :D

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Hi Vidi

Wish my first attempt looked like that :P

I see Silo is for sale right now for $109. So people here do like it? I may give myself a present.

Silo is a very nice program but very very buggy push it and it will crash and its not supported in any way shape or form so be warned, but if you can get it for the prices I have seen it at lately (around £29) and you treat it with respect and set up your auto save function to every few mins ... I get a lot out of silo but when I first bought it I crashed it every 5 seconds so I can not say buy it full heartedly.

By vidi - 13 Years Ago

I have it only because it was cheaper. I think I'm a software collector :laugh:

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

If you look around the Silo forums you can see the work people are doing with it with no problems, I on the other hand sub divided to the extream and pushed it and it crashed and crashed .. Now though I hardly ever crash it because I tend to avoid what does crash it .. It is great for getting that low res mesh ready for Zbrush/3Dcoat then working on a higher rez mesh for creating textures and the like ..

A simple Zbrush sphere has more pollys than my base mesh out of silo (usually)

But if you do consider buying it be warned its not been updated or been worked on by the developers much to the annoyance of its users, most of who love it but want the bugs sorted.

By vidi - 13 Years Ago

After playing few times with silo , I admit, I like Hexagon more.

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Yeah I hope Animagic reads this before buying.

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Hi Vidi

Can I ask what version your silo is as the UI looks slightly different to mine ?

By animagic - 13 Years Ago

Thanks for the warning...:ermm:

Well, I have Hexagon, which has its own quirks. It's a pity that basically nice programs get no longer developed. Same with Argile, which is also nice, but seems to be abandoned.

By animagic - 13 Years Ago

Well the Silo forum is kind of depressing reading. Recommended for anybody who thinks RL is bad... Even the reduced price of $109 is too much!

Now I also see a STEAM version for $59. Is that basically the same or does it require STEAM?

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Do not think it needs steam & TBH the $50 price tag is too much considering the lack of development and bugginess of the program.

After saying all that Ill tell you I love it, its a bit like sketchup in how easy it is to get to grips with, has more tools than you can shake a stick at, some nice retopology tools. Its just a pitty I can not recommend anyone buying it ...

also I think the buggs are more of a issue with window 7 64 bit ..

By vidi - 13 Years Ago

Can I ask what version your silo is as the UI looks slightly different to mine ?

I Have Pro Version 2.2 . The nice features of Silo is , you can customize and create your own UI from scratch if you like.

I have not so much trouble with silo, but I'm missing a few functions . e.g. for me important, Hexagon has an
extrac around edges tool (in Maya is it called offset edgetool)

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

I have not so much trouble with silo, but I'm missing a few functions . e.g. for me important, Hexagon has an
extrac around edges tool (in Maya is it called offset edgetool)

http://download.autodesk.com/global/docs/maya2013/en_us/index.html?url=files/Edit_Mesh__Offset_Edge_Loop_Tool.htm,topicNumber=d30e164617

mmm I am not sure but it looks like it might be the bevel tool but not sure..

By vidi - 13 Years Ago

no not really the bevel tool.

I mean this in the first part of the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F_FKHyOsy8o

or here the same function in maya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=44wof4XkKLE

Ok There is a workaround to do it in silo too, but not so handy

Och! I think I'm now very offtopic here I'm sorry :blush:

By animagic - 13 Years Ago

Any opinions on 3DCoat? Would that be a good alternative? The edu version is $79 until today.

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Any opinions on 3DCoat? Would that be a good alternative? The edu version is $79 until today

Yes ! its awsome ... gives Zbrush a run for its money (to a degree) its easy to learn over Zbrush ... If I had not alread bought Zbrush 3Dcoat would have been the one I would gone for. It has some of the best retopology tools I have used aswell as auto topology that really helps getting large models down to size ..

By vidi - 13 Years Ago

3D coat is highly recommended. I is a another way to create. It is a swiss knife with a lot of nice functions. The main thing is sculpting not modelling, but you has more freedom like to play with playdooh . Then included retopologie Tool , 3D painting and a great UV mapper. A great Tool I love it!

The edu version is not for commercial use

By animagic - 13 Years Ago

Thank you both! Well, it would not be commercial initially, so the edu version would do for now.

I'm not deep into modeling (not like sw00000p!), but I do need stuff sometimes.

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4-zeq2iZ50

This series will give you a good starting point for 3Dcoat, in some respects you get a lot more control over your model than Zbrush.

By tparrington - 13 Years Ago

I have 3d coat on my list to buy. It's a long list indeed.

Thanks to everyone for their imput on this thread!!!

By RB3006 - 13 Years Ago

great posts ...
any news about 3DX5 facial update ???

By vidi - 13 Years Ago

any news about 3DX5 facial update ???

nö deshalb vertreiben wir uns ja die Zeit derweil :D

Nope, only waiting and time expulsion here

By msstowers - 13 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/8/2013)

i haVe tree coAts!

Just out of curiousity, what is tree coAts? :D

By Dreamcube017 - 13 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/8/2013)

i haVe tree coAts!

For some reason, I have a strong suspicion that this is a troll/mocking post... just sayin'.

By msstowers - 13 Years Ago

sw00000p (1/9/2013)

msstowers (1/8/2013)

sw00000p (1/8/2013)

i haVe tree coAts!

Just out of curiousity, what is tree coAts? :D

It's a joke... A little humor! No troll mocking, just a little humor!

Oh I know, wasn't expecting a response. Reason for the smiley :D. Humor is good. Keeps me coming back to the forums here especially since no noteworthy news is being posted.

By wendyluvscatz - 13 Years Ago

Reallusion could solve a lot of their issues with lack of facial animation by simply enabling head replacement on non-standard characters or frankensteining that is saveable.
One solution would be to have Genesis, V4, and M4 based bone animation heads done in collaboration with Daz 3D that can load face/headmorph shapes the way iClone heads do via export import.
then you just swap heads and bodies using both iClone and Daz heads.
Not that hard with facefit to copy human Daz characters either but linking the heads on a clonebone body to a Daz body takes a bit of work and is not saveable except as a scene and scenes cannot be merged.
Another thing I have asked repeatedly with no response is for a V4 M4 texture template to be added to the Poser Simon, Sydney, secondlife options in the face editor, I have wishlisted the secondlife texture converter plugin so I can do this myself one day but converting all my maps will be tedious and un-needed if it were just supported.

bodiless heads could have many other uses too linked to props etc.

By Artman009 - 13 Years Ago

Bruce,

I'm sure you all are busy working on getting 3DXchange 5.2 ready for release but is it possible we can at least get a status update?

"End of 2012" has come and gone and this thread has gotten way out of hand. I'm not asking for an exact release date or anything, just an official update from Reallusion, please.

Thanks.

By sbaerman - 13 Years Ago

Hello, I second that request. It would be cool if we can set our expectations accordingly. If you guys need more time fine, the better the solution :-)

But if you promise ==> then keep
or at least update us accordingly what is the new timeframe.

Thanks

Steffen

By Dreamcube017 - 13 Years Ago

Agreed... AGAIN... devblog of some kind would solve this. Or at least an official update once or twice a month... or at least every two months or something. You'd be surprised at how much this kind of thing keeps people quiet at least for the most part.

By Peter (RL) - 13 Years Ago

sbaerman (1/11/2013)

Hi Steffen,

To the best of my knowledge no "promises" were given on a date. When dates have been given they have been the best estimates based on the information that was available at the time.

As it turned out we were quite badly wrong in the original estimates and we have apologised for this error. It certainly wasn't done deliberately to mislead our users.

I personally have always tried to use terms like scheduled or planned but this is often overlooked.

As to the current status. Development on the 3DXchange 5.2 and iClone 5.4 updates are still on-going but it is still scheduled for an early 2013 release.

If more specific information becomes available, I will certainly let you all know.

By cloneman300 - 13 Years Ago

Sw00000p: Rigging is today a children´s game. Mixamo solves most of your problems. Another option is the normal 3d studio or Cinema4d with one of the many auto-rigger plugins. It may be true, that a non-standard char is just one mesh, but a lot of guys know how to convert any char mesh to a standard iClone character. Any. They are not corded to Daz, they take any char. RL has choosen the most "featureless" way to give us speaking non-standard chars. "Less" is not possible. I would even say, that that is the worst way to realise speaking non-standard chars, because they are highpoly and their animation is difficult. Other content maker teach us a very different way: Don´t try to make non-standard chars speaking, but transform them to any standard char. This works well. RL knows that. The Monster Avatar pack works similar. I don´t understand the idea of RL at all. Any content is converted. All other content maker even convert the chars. But RL tries a complete other way and wants to invent something completely different. Why???? Peter: Relative to the least video, the plugin is finished. If that video is no fake, just explain us, why RL doesn´t release the plugin. Days of betatesting are ok. Weeks and months not. Anyway we are fed of waiting and waiting and waiting. No copy+paste excuse will help. No call attention to the exact wording of the "please wait" message will help. Release it or annoy more and more customers. RL has got no other options anymore.

By animagic - 13 Years Ago

What people seem to conveniently forget is that users kept asking for a possibility to use DAZ characters. So that's what they got. Now I read complaint after complaint that it should not have been DAZ but something else...:crazy:

RL should just have kept things locked up. There would still have been complaints, but no consequences....:doze:

By wendyluvscatz - 13 Years Ago

Sw00000p is the only thing that keeps me posting on and reading this forum.
I need the entertainment!

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Well yes we are getting what we asked for. Though its not such a bad thing, as I understand it if we can use DAZ characters with facial animation then we can rig (bone) in DAZ studio our own character and bring them into Iclone .. Which will do me (for now:P)

Short of winning the lottery and getting ~MAX/MAYA it should give me a working pipeline.

By Dreamcube017 - 13 Years Ago

You can bring rigged characters from anywhere actually.

Oh another fun little tidbit.

Has anyone ever used any of the Jam Band characters? (I'm assuming not really.)

Well get a demo of one in the content store, you'll notice that while the facial animations don't work the same way, they DO INDEED have them. I'm not sure how they work just yet though.

I think it's a dramascript or soemthing... which aparently you can still use the script creator and just convert it over. I forgot how though.

They aren't using facial morphs though.

On another note... is it possible to have cloth physics on a piece of clothing from a DAZ character?

By cloneman300 - 13 Years Ago

* I Can convert just about ANY character to a Standard Char!
* I did it Once... and will NEVER do it again!

All clear. You can, but you don´t want.

sw00000p (1/15/2013)

[quote]2. You Definitely... DON'T KNOW HOW TO ANIMATE!

And you? http://www.youtube.com/user/sw0o0o0op/videos You can, but you don´t want to make any fancy clip, or? Anyway you can get a lot of converted game chars as speaking iClone standard chars. They look well and are lowpoly and you can animate them very well. Daz is very, very limited and even not really thought for animating. Only "power posing". Games provide you every content for every theme. People out there use them and convert them already for years. RL is far, far behind. Even if they would release even tomorrow speaking Dazzies, they show only low development. Not that unbelievable bad as today, but they are still low developed. For sure you may rig with 3d Studio & co better. But we don´t need perfect rigged chars. Well rigged chars for all standard moves are good enough for most of our purposes. iClone is a puppet theater for adults - no blockbuster software. No matter what RL is doing, people find a way to get their content in iClone. Once a patch touched the workaround for speaking ported chars. We revolted and the very first time iClone had to react to our complaints. "Mad genius" is something other. Especially if every bad patch could start the next revolt. :w00t:

By RB3006 - 13 Years Ago

Hey Moviemaker100 (blocked member) ... alias cloneman300
No plan about Daz, but talk about
it seems, its absolute normal for you, to work on lowest level. :D

By wendyluvscatz - 13 Years Ago

as dreamcube said, it is possible to bring in rigged characters from anywhere.
and indeed some have facial bones such as makehuman
but
You can no longer access those bones once retargeted to use iMotions.
this is what is really needed, the much whispered about third panel
which enables a motion editor like access to those bones and others such as tails and wings.

and Sw00000p, what I was describing, I can do already, put iClone heads on other headless bodies.
was just suggesting it could be made easier to do and save for reuse.
instead of having to do all the steps each time of linking a bodyless head with uppers, lowers etc made invisible and resized to tiny proportions and lining it up correctly and not being able to save it as one conjoined avatar for reuse.
simply have a head that at least parents to non-standard head/neckbones on loading with other bodyparts if not absent, locked and invisible sans mesh.

By cloneman300 - 13 Years Ago

RB3006: And al your fancy Daz clips are where? http://www.youtube.com/user/MrRobert3006/videos Say nothing! You can, but you just don´t want, right? Least clips are attacking RL, and are really animated on the lowest possible level. Else there is nothing special you have to know about Daz. Just get in content of Daz or Poser and export it to iClone for animation. Works wonderful. Especially poser content is not really highpoly. And we know all workarounds to get speaking, "additional" chars. But since years people create speaking "high level" avatars without any workaround. Now, after years of begging, RL has promised to provide us at least a low level solution, too. And even for this obsolete tech we have to wait and wait. Week after week. I ask myself: Will it last for months and years again? It is possible. :w00t: And when RL will reach the level of todays people out there? Within how many years?

By RB3006 - 13 Years Ago

cloneman300 = moviemaker100 = Blocked Member

By sbaerman - 13 Years Ago

Peter (RL) (1/13/2013)

sbaerman (1/11/2013)

Hi Steffen,

To the best of my knowledge no "promises" were given on a date. When dates have been given they have been the best estimates based on the information that was available at the time.

As it turned out we were quite badly wrong in the original estimates and we have apologised for this error. It certainly wasn't done deliberately to mislead our users.

I personally have always tried to use terms like scheduled or planned but this is often overlooked.

As to the current status. Development on the 3DXchange 5.2 and iClone 5.4 updates are still on-going but it is still scheduled for an early 2013 release.

If more specific information becomes available, I will certainly let you all know.

hey Tutor. Thanks for the message. Indeed I bought a lot of content at Daz right after xchange was able to import. In a case I got the answer, it will be in autumn. So I do not complain don't take me wrong.

But as another person said, just let us know, so we can adjust our planning. That's a couple of lines to keep your customers calm and set expectations right :-) Thanks anyway.

By bluemidget666 - 13 Years Ago

Yes you can bring in rigged/boned characters .. But I am talking about a pipeline for facial animation .. the body is the easy part :P