Profile Picture

Hair conforming issue during animations

Posted By Dorothy Jean 4 Months Ago
You don't have permission to rate!
Author
Message
Dorothy Jean
Dorothy Jean
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Senior Member

Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 6 days ago
Posts: 87, Visits: 308
Hello,
I am new at making hair for character creator and iclone.  In character creator you have to transfer skin weights on the hair and choose "Hair" then go into Modify and calculate collision so it will conform to your characters head shape.  I then add my weight maps to the hair and sent it over into iclone.   When testing my hair in iclone it still conforms while the animation plays on the character and gives a very bad result. 

I have converted my hair to an accessory instead and then sent to iclone but the weight maps get removed and I can't have that happen if i'm selling the hair.

Please let me know the proper way of doing this so when i sell hair on the marketplace that i make the person using it won't run into issues.

Thanks!!!
Kelleytoons
Kelleytoons
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Yesterday
Posts: 5.9K, Visits: 11.9K
You don't want weight maps, you want physics maps.



Alienware Aurora R7, Win 10, i7-8700k, 4.7GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, GTX Titan XP (12GB), Samsung 960 Pro 2TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley
Dorothy Jean
Dorothy Jean
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Senior Member

Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 6 days ago
Posts: 87, Visits: 308
Kelleytoons (2/23/2019)
You don't want weight maps, you want physics maps.


Thanks for the reply but I am actually talking about weight maps and that is what I add to the hair to give them physics in iclone. See below image


https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/0d512d2d-9579-4377-9b52-5ae0.jpg




Edited
4 Months Ago by Dorothy Jean
Kelleytoons
Kelleytoons
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Yesterday
Posts: 5.9K, Visits: 11.9K
Well, you're misspeaking then.  You don't "transfer weight maps" onto hair -- you create physics maps (there are no "weight maps" coming from other programs to be transferred).

But let's say for a moment you don't mean that, that you are just bringing the hair into CC3 and NOT transferring any weights.  So you just need to learn to draw the physics maps correctly (and adjust them correctly in iClone).  Here's one tutorial I did for Daz hair:






Alienware Aurora R7, Win 10, i7-8700k, 4.7GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, GTX Titan XP (12GB), Samsung 960 Pro 2TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley
Kelleytoons
Kelleytoons
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Yesterday
Posts: 5.9K, Visits: 11.9K
Also, one of the things I don't do in the video is load collisions in -- in CC3 collisions are turned off by default, so that might be a big part of your problem.  In iClone, make sure you turn on collisions and load in the collision shapes from Christian (which are much better).  That should solve all your issues.



Alienware Aurora R7, Win 10, i7-8700k, 4.7GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, GTX Titan XP (12GB), Samsung 960 Pro 2TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley
Dorothy Jean
Dorothy Jean
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Senior Member

Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 6 days ago
Posts: 87, Visits: 308
[quote]Kelleytoons (2/23/2019)
Well, you're misspeaking then.  You don't "transfer weight maps" onto hair -- you create physics maps (there are no "weight maps" coming from other programs to be transferred).

But let's say for a moment you don't mean that, that you are just bringing the hair into CC3 and NOT transferring any weights.  So you just need to learn to draw the physics maps correctly (and adjust them correctly in iClone).  Here's one tutorial I did for Daz hair:

My appologies, I don't think we are on the same page.  I meant transfer skin weights then adding weight maps.  I did watch your video a few weeks ago when I first got started doing hair.  I'll re-explain my situation better below:

So step 1-
I'm importing my OBJ file into CC3 then i do the following:
1. Transfer skin weights

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/1718258d-3157-4abe-8f1b-4905.jpg
choose hair

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/4afde113-cf57-426e-a644-b0b9.jpg
Go to the conforming area and enable conforming and then I calculate the collision so the hair fits the shape of my model's head
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/788d0e15-ad63-4b35-904d-141f.jpg
Go to the physics area and add my weight map for my hair so it can have physics in iclone.

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/23ee7983-5bc6-40e6-b819-092c.jpg

Then i send my character to iclone
https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/995a233f-6d97-4eaf-bf6a-53b9.jpg

This is when i start having issues. Since the hair is "Conforming" and has the "Hair" skin weight is on it, it behaves oddly in iclone with physics UNLESS I convert the hair to an accessory and send it back into iclone and then add the weight maps in there.

I have no issues creating weight maps but I just want to make sure that i'm doing everything the right way so if someone were to purchase my hair I would hate for it to behave funny in iclone. The video below is my hair converted to an accessory so it does not CONFORM and moves great with physics.  




Here is an example of the issue i'm talking about. I attached a video file.  The first animation in this video  -  The hair was converted to an accessory. The 2nd same animation, it was not and you can tell the hair moves different and does not look as good as the first clip.  I used the same weight map and the same hair physics settings.  Long hair is where the issue shows up the most though.  Sorry about her dress falling down in the send clip i forgot to remove the physics from it. (The video is uploading so i'm not sure when it will be visible.)

I hope this clarify's my issue. 








Kelleytoons
Kelleytoons
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)Distinguished Member (18.9K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: Yesterday
Posts: 5.9K, Visits: 11.9K
Sorry, I can't see that second video.

I'm confused though if the hair works as an accessory but not as hair.  AFAIK (which may not be much) hair itself is mostly an accessory. Which is to say it IS attached to the head bone (and thus will conform if the head is shaped) but will not be affected by any other bones.  It also will respect the head and body collision bones IF there are some.  And (unique to hair and accessories) it can also be sized and moved on the character (unlike clothing).

But it shouldn't behave differently when it comes to physics so I'm not sure what to tell you there.



Alienware Aurora R7, Win 10, i7-8700k, 4.7GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, GTX Titan XP (12GB), Samsung 960 Pro 2TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley
4u2ges
4u2ges
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 3 hours ago
Posts: 1.7K, Visits: 7.0K
Honestly, I have not used skin weight transfer in CC3 much.
But I would not trust ANY automated skin weight tools (regardless of the app), specially for the hair and specially for the long hair.

One thing is for sure: you should NOT use Transfer Skin Weight in CC3 for the hair.
Hair mesh has to have the majority of the influence coming from the head bone as Mike pointed.
Bottom line is, you want to have the least number of bones influencing hair.
So in the end it is fine tuning between 3: bone influence, hair physics and collision shapes.

Out of curiosity, I have exported RL professionally made hair (I own an export version) and looked at it in Blender.
As you may see, only 2 bones are influencing the hair:

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/97d8a708-80ba-472c-8aa0-507e.jpg

I then applied a Transfer Skin Weight in CC3 to the same hair and again exported:
Now, there are number of other bones influencing a hair mesh. which they should not IMO.

https://forum.reallusion.com/uploads/images/d804cf37-e6b8-4884-9376-d8df.jpg

I'd suggest a third party tool such as Blender for the weight paint jobs.
It is probably possible to tweak weights in CC... but I just tried it for the hair and CC crashed to the desktop... So there you go...Ermm

But then again, I am speculating here, as I do not see what exact problem you are havingSmile

BTW: I cannot really test that second hair in iClone (it is rendering), but I am pretty sure the result would be terrible.
That sharp transition between red/blue for the head bone (full bone influence/no influence) would result in hair stretching and deforming with any head movements.
The physics weight map in the transition area is probably some shade of gray and would not be enough to smooth things down.
So that would require some custom weight paint work to make it look like the hair in the first image.




Edited
4 Months Ago by 4u2ges
Dorothy Jean
Dorothy Jean
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Senior Member

Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)Senior Member (489 reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 6 days ago
Posts: 87, Visits: 308
Thanks! I had no idea the hair skin weighs were not great. How do u make a custom one? There is an option to choose a file. I use blender to make hair but never used weight painting.  Ill check that out!! Thanks!!   Also, in cc3 when u apply hair and pose the character.. if the head is looking up or down or sideways u will see the hair mesh become deformed. It does that in iclone but has physics, however, depending on the hair style, it will also be deformed.   
4u2ges
4u2ges
Posted 4 Months Ago
View Quick Profile
Distinguished Member

Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)Distinguished Member (5.3K reputation)

Group: Forum Members
Last Active: 3 hours ago
Posts: 1.7K, Visits: 7.0K
Ah, if you created the hair in Blender, then you should have weight paint it right there (given you used a CC based avatar as a model).

I do not really have anything handy to offer as a tutorial other than this: https://forum.reallusion.com/343631/DAZ-Hair-to-CC-via-Blender-a-Workflow
It is quite outdated since we now have CC3, but somewhere in the middle it shows Blender weight paint basics. Though it was a short hair and not much really needed to be tweaked.

In your case, after transferring weights in Blender there would be whole lot of bones influencing the hair mesh (much the same as in CC).
You just need to get rid of those bones vertex groups leaving head and probably spine bone groups and make one smooth transition between 2.
If you are looking to get best possible result, it might not be easy at first since as I mentioned, 3 have to be tuned to perfection (weight paint, weight physics and collision shapes)
There are plenty of Blender weight paint tutorials on YouTube to get general understanding (somebody else might post more on the subject).





Edited
4 Months Ago by 4u2ges



Reading This Topic