So I bought the iPhone X plugin (could never get the demo to install but even if I had it wouldn't have been much use to evaluate it, as you have to record *something* to test -- really weird of RL to make a timed, 30 day demo that doesn't do anything, as either you should be able to record *something* or it shouldn't be timed).  I kind of wish I hadn't, now.

Edit: I'm now on the fence whether this is better than Faceware or not.  Perhaps I just need some more adjustments here, but I kind of doubt it.  The one wild card to all this is I'm using Zane to test, and the sample tutorial RL posted uses a completely new character which APPEARS to be better detailed.  I'm hoping this is CC3, and that's what we'll be getting and, if so, I'm hoping it means that the Faceshift thingee works better with it (but then again, shouldn't Faceware work better, too?)  The sample recording in that tutorial sure looks better than what I could get with Zane, though.

What I find is that Faceware seems smoother, while Faceshift seems more squirrely.  I actually had to make several adjustments to the sliders just to get it to look even *this* good (whereas, again, Faceware looks better out of the box with no adjustments).  But I have to make a lot more tests to get some conclusive results.

First test here is with the defaults:



Next test is adjusting the jaw (which moves WAY too much without adjustments) and toning down the overall strength:



Last shows Faceware comparison using the same setup:



There's at least one advantage here -- I can use Faceshift with my "thick" glasses on (the ones I normally use on the computer) whereas Faceware won't work with those.  The tradeoff is you can't use video with Faceshift, though.  

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Alienware Aurora R12, Win 10, i9-119000KF, 3.5GHz CPU, 128GB RAM, RTX 3090 (24GB), Samsung 960 Pro 4TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Of course now, after looking at the three of these in a row, I do find I kind of like the "adjusted" Faceshift version a bit better.

It's a tough call because when I try and smile the Faceware definitely handles it better -- Faceshift moves the lips in an awkward position.  However, when I'm not smiling I like the Faceshift better.  Sigh -- perhaps I need to diddle with the settings for the smile itself, but what a PITA that would be for dozens of different characters.

Again, the wildcard in all of this is -- does the CC3 character have a different/better face?  That's what we don't know, and that's a pretty significant piece of the puzzle.  I don't think (and I'm SO ignorant on this point) that bringing in, say, a Daz 8 character will give us a better facial profile to work with, but perhaps.  That's my next set of tests -- I'll convert a Daz character AND I'll use USB (all the tests I've done so far are with wi-fi -- although it DOES say it should operate smoother with USB I find that hard to believe given that the video tutorial RL posted was using wi-fi and it looked fine).

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Alienware Aurora R12, Win 10, i9-119000KF, 3.5GHz CPU, 128GB RAM, RTX 3090 (24GB), Samsung 960 Pro 4TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Thanks for sharing your findings KT. It's good to see a hands on comparison like this from someone who has both systems. 

                                                                

Peter
Forum Administrator

www.reallusion.com

Here's a few more tests, with a Daz 8 figure brought in automagically through XChange into iClone.

In both tests the texture of the teeth (the too-whiteness of them) kind of throws off the ability to evaluate the mocap data, but one things is clear to me -- Faceware works better "out of the box".  Faceshift needs tweaking for the character.  I do think the proper tweaking can result in VERY good data, but that's a bit of a PITA and I'm hoping the answer is more of a general "This is a Daz 8 Male Preset" and "This is a CC3 Male Preset" versus "This is Oscar's Preset" and "This is Ted's Preset" because if the latter you could spend a LOT of time working on presets for the various avatars you create.

(And if anyone wants to jump in and help me out here with some ideas I'd love to share -- right now my basic procedure is to turn down the jaw left/right rotations from 30 to around 15, and reduce overall strength to 85 or so, but I need to pin down lip/jaw-up/down movements as well, and perhaps even smile, which tends to look creepy.  You have to trust me, I do NOT smile and scare small children with it).

First Faceware:



Now Faceshift:

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Alienware Aurora R12, Win 10, i9-119000KF, 3.5GHz CPU, 128GB RAM, RTX 3090 (24GB), Samsung 960 Pro 4TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

I'll also note -- all the Faceshift stuff is done with wi-fi.  I can't get the USB connection to work (I thought I had it working at one point, but now I'm not so sure).  RL "says" it will be smoother with USB but I kind of doubt this -- it appears the data is flowing VERY smoothly (and I'm practically sitting on top of my 5gz wi-fi router as I do this stuff).  Plus RL themselves demo it with wi-fi.  If I could figure out how to get USB working it would be interesting to compare, but as anyone who has ever tried interfacing Apple with Windows knows, that's hardly an exact science (I was actually one of the first folks to ever get an iPod working with Windows -- Apple was so impressed I became a beta tester for them, and still am like a level 8 on their forums despite having done *nothing* more than iPod help for those years).

With wi-fi, however, it's almost so easy there is nothing to it (and another note: the RL docs are wrong in this regard.  They imply you need to set up a hotspot for this but you do not and in point of fact it won't give you any advantage over just connecting normally.  I first notice this in the Faceshift demo where the guy blew by this).  As long as your phone sees your network iClone and Live will see the phone (assuming the PC is on the same network).  That's about all there is to it.

The implication is that you might also be able to record data remotely (over the internet) and while that's intriguing (particularly for larger studios who might want to remotely capture talent) it really won't do me any good at all so I don't intend to even try.  I suspect that's why you would need to setup the hotspot but even then I may be wrong (at my age this stuff makes my head hurt -- my wife was the network expert in our family, and she has since retired.  I'm retired too, from programming, but at least I keep programming and she can't even hook up a network printer anymore :>.

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Alienware Aurora R12, Win 10, i9-119000KF, 3.5GHz CPU, 128GB RAM, RTX 3090 (24GB), Samsung 960 Pro 4TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Re "First Faceware" at 0:20

You:   "He he he he..."
Me:  LOL!!!


Loving the comparisons.  Thanks.  Keep them coming.

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iClone 7... Character Creator... Substance Designer/Painter... Blender... Audacity...
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Okay, another test.  I played around a little more with settings, although with Peter's confirmation that the iPhone tutorial they posted used the CC3 character (which is definitely superior) I'm not sure how much more playing and tailoring I'm going to try, as eventually (sigh -- if I live that long) I'll be using those characters exclusively.

In any case, this is mostly important because I connected via USB.  It was a PITA and I'm not even sure I can do it again (Apple and Windows just don't like each other :> but for the purposes of these tests I'm not seeing any differences.  If you guys do, let me know, but as far as I'm concerned I think wi-fi works just as well (and it's easier and more reliable).  I'm guessing that IF you have spotty wi-fi or are trying to connect remotely there might be an advantage, but given that the amount of data being transmitted is *very* small (it's only sending differences) I can't see how a direct connection could be any better.  However, I will be convinced if someone sees a difference.

If I can get my wife in the right mood (she's been at work all day and while she's pretty accommodating she also gets tired) I'll have her do a couple of tests as well, just so you can see what it looks like from a feminine standpoint.  Plus it might be easier for me to tailor the model.  I do know that my results trying with Faceware and her were very disappointing (for some reason she didn't capture at all well -- I don't even have any theories as to why that's so):

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Alienware Aurora R12, Win 10, i9-119000KF, 3.5GHz CPU, 128GB RAM, RTX 3090 (24GB), Samsung 960 Pro 4TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Okay, a couple of tests with my cooperating wife (who still complained "I don't have a very expressive FACE" says the former actress.  Sigh.  You wonder why we directors have gray hair).

First a rather generic model, that I adjusted just *slightly* from the male adjustments I was using (mostly to close the lips):



Then a much better model (better in that it actually looks like my wife -- I think that really does help with facial capture).  So my Irish wife doing her silly elf impersonation.



While these are okay, I do think the CC3 heads will be better -- in particular the lips for both aren't as detailed as I think they could be (and I'm hoping the CC3 ones are better).  Lips really mean a lot more when it comes to female characters.

Edit: Shoot -- forgot to record audio for the elf.  Damn.  We'll do ONE more (because she's so damn cute as an elf).

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Alienware Aurora R12, Win 10, i9-119000KF, 3.5GHz CPU, 128GB RAM, RTX 3090 (24GB), Samsung 960 Pro 4TB M-2 SSD, TB+ Disk space
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Thanks for taking the time to make those tests and sharing them Kellytoons. It's great to see real life comparisons between the two systems. 

Ryzen R9 5950x, RTX 3090, 128Gb Ram ,2 x 2 TB Samsung 980 Pro M.2 SSD

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Great to see these tests Mike!  (just discovered this thread).
I like the 'overall' look of *faceshift* - it's seems more 'natural' to me, though it 'misses' (I feel), in phoneme *accuracy*. (And I see what you mean re: the 'smiling').
FaceWare's lips respond *more accurately* to me, but the overall 'volume' (cavity) of the mouth seems excessive - but maybe adjustable? (And the lips don't *make contact* as much?).
I don't have a *reference* point (ie: actor and puppet side by side), to *really* know.

But Mike - I'm somewhat *confused* regarding the 'setup' requirements (especially RL's).
As an owner of *both* systems, can you give us a breakdown of what software / hardware is required to get into each of these setups (with a price comparison)? I think that would be a most helpful and *interesting* to see.
(If you have the time for such, it would be appreciated).
thnx in advance .....


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Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time!   - yikes! ... 

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