Thanks for all your info.

I'm still evaluating all my options.  The problem, as I've mentioned, is the Orion does have some very odd behaviors that look and sound similar to what happens with the PN.  In the case of the PN, I guess it's the little sensors that drift, or don't track properly for a moment, in the case of VIVE hardware it's that the infrared signals either bounce wrong or get blocked or some other.  Oddly enough my very first test was the best, when I didn't have the lighthouses mounted and when my legs were adjusted wrong (so I was in a crouch).  Since that time I actually made the room cleaner, and fixed the legs but that also seems to have made matters worse somehow.

I'm going to make one last pass at it this morning, but I'm also looking very seriously at the PN (I actually have an order in for it but it's backordered at the moment.  Good news is it IS version 2.0, which only came out a few months ago, and that *might* be better in some regards).  I will say this, though: the support for Orion is almost non-existent.  They have a forum, which is about as dead as forums go (I still have three or four unanswered posts there).  They do seem to have *some* support, but it's very minimal and mostly limited and I think the real issue is this is one of those: "It's not us, it's them" situations, since we have hardware and software coming from two different places.  That's a REAL problem most of the time, and if the software wasn't so expensive it would be a different matter.

The PN and Orion/VIVE are about the same cost wise -- assuming the PN lasts a few years (about as much as you could hope for) it *might* start being cheaper in the third year, but I wouldn't hold my breath with technology this fragile.  If you were already into VR and had the VIVE it would be a no-brainer to go that route and the hardware seems more robust, but it does have other issues (you have to charge each of the trackers separately and while they do last a long time it's still a PITA to deal with that).  While I can't say for sure yet it seems like putting both systems on is about a wash -- while the VIVE is *mostly* easier physically, you do have to turn on each tracker, run Steam and sometimes there are issues with it finding them.  And for sure the hands issue is crap -- while PN might have finger issues the VIVE have none at all (and I'm guessing even some fingers issues can be solved fairly easily in editing -- what happens when you put an iHand motion on top of the PN capture?  I would suspect it would override it).

Anyway, I'll certainly post all my experiences on the hopes that it will help someone down the road (I wish I was younger because I can squint my eyes and see that eventually we will have such an amazing array of software and hardware the world will be ours.  Well, yours, because I won't be in it anymore).

---

Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Well that’s disappointing. I was really interested in the Orion based on your first two videos. Noitom’s support was pretty good when I needed it. But I’d read on the forums where people had different experiences early on. I’m curious how much better version 2.0 is. I figure it’ll be better. If you do go the PN route be patient at first putting the suit together and on. It’ll take a while at first. Then you’ll be used to it. If speed of your thing (based on you posts it appears it is), I would get the anitmag case. That way you don’t have to install and remove your 32 neuron at the beginning and end of each session. Really painful for me. Once I get back on dry land, I’ll post some simple motion tears with no cleanup for reference.

My "NEWEST" Latest  Movie Made With Amaaaazing iClone


—> High Noon”ish” in Narrow Valley<—

Yeah, no one is more disappointed than I am, because now after watching someone put on the 2.0 suit I can see it's a LOT more complicated (so it's one of those "you had better settle down and do some mocap" rather than just a "I think I'll knock out some quick captures" sort of thing.  I did order the magnetic case, because for sure I wasn't about to mess with those little magnet thingees.  However, I'm now concerned my house nor the outside grounds isn't suitable for capture (magnetic readings show a minimum of around 47 Tesla, although web research indicates the earth itself averages around 50, so I'm not sure what the whole "you'll get the best results with a reading of 30" are all about).

Based on the videos I've watched, though, the PN does seem like it does a good job with capture even without cleanup, assuming you wear things properly (that point was stressed strongly).  I also think it helps if you do this with a buddy, so I can see that I will need to have my wife assist for the best results (no big deal as I most likely would want her to do about half the motion work anyway).  I *think* it might work for me assuming I can get the magnetic question answered, but we'll see.

(And I still am going to try one more time with Orion today, if nothing more than for my own curiosity).

---

Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Once you put the PN suit on a few times it becomes much easier. But yeah the first few times, you’ll think there’s no way that fool put the suit on that fast as he did in the video. I put it on and do motion captures solo. So you can do it with no help after a while. It is rather quick once you get everything down, so it doesn’t need to be a long planned ok tomorrow I will mocap.

But one thing to test out first when you get your suit is don’t even put it on. Put all the neurons in it, connect it and put all the components on the floor. Do the still pose and it shouldn’t move at all. Then monitor what the suit does in the Axis Pro software. At that point you should have a jumbled mess of an avatar. But.... it shouldn’t be drifting or moving at all. I had all sorts of issues at first when mocaping. After talking with customer support they suggested I do the above. My suit was still moving around in spots in the Axis Pro Software even though it was just lying on the floor. That meant it wasn’t a calibration issue, it was a coulple bad neurons issue. So they got replaced.

As far as Tesla readings, I had some odd places in my house with high readings. I found a spot with consistent low readings and that where I knock my mocap. You should be able to find a relatively benign spot in the low to mid 40’s. I found more than a handful. Oh and yeah finding something near 30 won’t happen. At least nowhere in my house.

My "NEWEST" Latest  Movie Made With Amaaaazing iClone


—> High Noon”ish” in Narrow Valley<—

Thanks, really appreciate all the info.  I'm sure it will get easier as I do it, but I'm not expecting it to be *really* easy.

And I am feeling better hearing about your magnetic reading experiences.  I've been a little (okay, a lot) disappointed with the Perception Neuron forum where no one seems to answer anything and that question (not even mine originally) has been hanging about for years.  I can see there are "hot spots" in my home, but nowhere does it seem like I could get close to 30's.  Part of the problem is that meters to read this read EMF and not *just* magnetic per se.  And we are bombarded by EMF -- a wi-fi router puts out a ton of it (so even the router you have to use for wi-fi for the suit will put out that kind of radiation).  I suppose you might get some kind of "clean" room setup but I find it hard to believe that in any of the demos they are able to do that, so it's far more likely they are also doing captures with much higher levels than they recommend without issues.

And thanks again for the idea about testing the drift first -- that's really a good one.  I've seen the video tutorial where he goes through a single neuron for testing and calibration, and it occurred to me to try this on all of them but then I thought, "Wait, wouldn't *they* have done this before shipping?"  But I guess anything could happen in the shipping process.  So I still might do that first.

---

Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Well Mike, you'll be one of the 'few' to have tested both these setups one after the other - you'll have invaluable first hand experience ..... Will be interesting - will there be a 'clear winner' - or will it be 'close call' ? .... (of course this might not be a 'true' apples with apples comparison).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time!   - yikes! ... 

● MSI GT72VR Laptop, i7 7700HQ 4-Core 3.8 GHz 16GB RAM; Nvidia 1070, 8GB Vram ● iClone-7.93 ● 3DXChange Pipeline 7.81 ● CC-3 Pipeline 3.44 ● Live Face ● HeadShot ● Brekel Pro-Body ● Popcorn FX ● iRAY ● Kinect V2 ● DaVinci Resolve17 ● Mixcraft 8.1

Yes, that did occur to me (and, given my three years of experience with the iPisoft two Kinect capture system, I think I can make a good comparison of all three of the "major" low-cost mocap solutions).

I do think all three of these have enough in common to make a decent comparison -- while they differ wildly in how they approach the capture process, all of them can produce some very nice results with not a lot of effort, and all of them are in the same general price range (iPisoft being the cheapest).  Given that they represent the three distinct types of capture you can do (optically, infrared, and IMU), it will be interesting to have used all of them.

---

Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

And, apparently, I'll have this to test a lot sooner than I thought (on the site it says they are backordered until 7/15, but I just got a notification it shipped today, and if shipped from Miami it shouldn't take more than a day or two to get here.  So perhaps by Friday I'll be able to test this out.  I will be reporting as things progress).

---

Alienware Aurora R16, Win 11, i9-149000KF, 3.20GHz CPU, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090 (24GB), Samsung 870 Pro 8TB, Gen3 MVNe M-2 SSD, 4TBx2, 39" Alienware Widescreen Monitor
Mike "ex-genius" Kelley

Great new Mike!  I'm curious how much better the PN 2.0 suit will be compared to the first gen. I've dying to see how their Pro Suit stacks up to Xsens. It's billed as a cheaper version with similar quality of mocap at a fraction of the cost without the software payment. No fingers as of yet for that suit though and you must take the neurons off and put them on after every use. Still a pretty penny at about ~4k US. Eager to see your PN tests. I'll do a few once I get back on dry land. Honestly for me the power of PN is using it on avatars real time with the iclone plug since you're basically acting on a retargeted character so you can adjust your movements accordingly. I just wish the capture was a bit more fluid and with less drift. Oh well... we can't have it all on a budget after all!

My "NEWEST" Latest  Movie Made With Amaaaazing iClone


—> High Noon”ish” in Narrow Valley<—

This really is exciting Mike! - both for you AND those following this closely...
I was thinking - if both the 'Orion' and the 'Perception Neuron' end up yielding 'roughly comparable' results (*performance* wise), then it'd probably come down to 'ease of use', 'durability' and similar factors (regarding which you'd end up going with). - Let's just hope your PN kit performs as it should - and has no 'dud' Neurons! - an optimum experience 'straight out of the box', will certainly give a more *immediate* comparison... (great to hear 'kungphu's' findings also!)...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please be patient with me ..... I don't always 'get it' the first time 'round - not even the 2nd time!   - yikes! ... 

● MSI GT72VR Laptop, i7 7700HQ 4-Core 3.8 GHz 16GB RAM; Nvidia 1070, 8GB Vram ● iClone-7.93 ● 3DXChange Pipeline 7.81 ● CC-3 Pipeline 3.44 ● Live Face ● HeadShot ● Brekel Pro-Body ● Popcorn FX ● iRAY ● Kinect V2 ● DaVinci Resolve17 ● Mixcraft 8.1