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[NEWS!] SIGGRAPH 2017 - FACEWARE UPDATE

Posted By Joe (RL) 4 Years Ago
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kungphu
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justaviking (8/7/2017)


I predict the adults here will prevail, and the iClone community will be fine.

Peace to all.




I truly think that will be the case when the smoke clears. I can't think of any of the good folks who post on this board that I don't respect. That won't change. Some people will be angry and unhappy, but in the end some will have it and others won't. This isn't a make or break to simply tell a story. At the end of the day that's all that moviemaking is. Telling the audience your story and entertaining them. FW shouldn't stop me or anyone from making movies.

The biggest complaint will be that we waited this long for it and this is what we get? An overpriced solution? I think there were some unrealistic expectations for facial mocap to be "affordable." I expected affordable anywhere between a $800-$1500 range not a $150-$200 range for a premium product. It looks like they priced it close to the PN mocap solution. And by all the vids and reviews it is a really good solution with little cleanup needed. I've used the Kinect system with external software and had to spend time cleaning up lots of mocap data. It's a pain for sure even just retargetimg is a pain. This solution looks like it eliminates some of the cleanup hassle.

My audio studio is my first hobby and a source of very small income to buy more "toys" with; so I'll have to save up a little or find a paying gig if I want FW. In the meantime if I have to wait and others buy it, I won't be upset or divided. I'll continue making bad Smile movies and telling goofy stories, because that's what iClone lets someone like me with zero animation experience do. I'll be super interested to see how others use the FW plug. Looks like RL are shaking things up at Siggraph!

My "NEWEST" LatestSmile  Movie Made With Amaaaazing iClone


—> High Noon”ish” in Narrow Valley<—



Edited
4 Years Ago by kungphu
dr.zap
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kungphu (8/7/2017)


My audio studio is my first hobby and a source of very small income to buy more "toys" with; so I'll have to save up a little or find a paying gig if I want FW. In the meantime if I have to wait and others buy it, I won't be upset or divided. I'll continue making bad Smile movies and telling goofy stories, because that's what iClone lets someone like me with zero animation experience do. I'll be super interested to see how others use the FW plug. Looks like RL are shaking things up at Siggraph!


These are the words of a true filmmaker!  Before mocap, people were telling great stories.  If your aim is to tell a story, there are always inexpensive tools to do so.  You don't need the best technology.  Your imagination is your best tool.  We can lust at the latest high-end toys, but in the end, an artist can create his own masterpiece with whatever he has.  Good comment.

TonyDPrime
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I think the group is making some great observations.  Here are some very recent that I think should totally be taken into consideration if a premium price.  It is not me asking each person to justify or explain the comment further.  Rather, I think they are making valid points for the rest of us to consider:

(1) Rampa - "Add a zero! (Wink) That's pro equipment."

Consideration - does the pro equipment yield 'best' results.  If 'yes', then what are the non-best results from non-pro equipment going to look like.  And is it to you justified that you pay a premium for that. 


(2) Kungphu - "I've used the Kinect system with external softwareand had to spend time cleaning up lots of mocap data. It's a pain for sure evenjust retargetimg is a pain. This solution looks like it eliminates some of thecleanup hassle."


Consideration - on the videos posted by a couple users in this topic, RL itself does address that the viseme and the face motions can be layered and tweaked for perfection.  Is this - cleaning mocap data and retargeting - the necessity though?  If it is, Is this worth a premium price


(3) Dr.Zap - "If it is worth it, you should be glad to sacrificefor it.
  If it isn't worth it, maybe youcan find another solution at a dirt cheap price that is as good as Faceware."

Consideration - did the product "Wow" you?  Are you not glad to just
sacrifice for it?  If not - What in fact would have made it worth it at premium price?

Edited
4 Years Ago by TonyDPrime
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More philosophizing, rhetoric, and sophistry - 
looking at Faceware's own existing product line.  There is an emphasis on 'Support' costing more.  You pay more for support.

Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?  Is it on a solutions-specific basis, outside of the scope of normal use type-thing, like consulting?  Or, is it paying, like insurance or a warranty plan on a product, if the product fails?  Like, is the product so riddled with obstacles, issues, and faults that the average user is expected to expect they occur, and thus you get the optimized experience if you have support?  

If the cost is a premium cost, is that 'support' one of the justifications for the premium price.  
2 considerations then- Why are you paying more, ie a premium, for a product that is broken, incomplete, has bugs, requires support, etc...., or for consulting that you will not have direct access to.

Now, one can argue - It's a business, nothing is free, I worked for x-years and you don't know what it all entails, it's the best there is, see if you can do better on your own!  
This is a logical premise, having > have not .  And by that logic anything can theoretically cost anything, and be justified.  

So then worth looking at is the timeline, or track record of other similar plugins:
-Perception Neuron, Indigo Renderer - are all issues addressed in advance of updates, or are they only dealt with when a user finds one and lists it in Feedback Tracker and it gets enough votes..  Are there any outstanding issues with either of these plugins, or have they been brought up to their full working optimized potential at current.  Is the attention to making the customer's experience with the product 'premium'.  
Is your $ worthy of a premium experience, or not?
 
dr.zap
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TonyDPrime (8/7/2017)

Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?  Is it on a solutions-specific basis, outside of the scope of normal use type-thing, like consulting?  Or, is it paying, like insurance or a warranty plan on a product, if the product fails?  Like, is the product so riddled with obstacles, issues, and faults that the average user is expected to expect they occur, and thus you get the optimized experience if you have support?  
 


Since you seem to be unaware of how professionals work, I will explain things as simply as I can.  I am not in the 3d/FX business, but most collaborative business works this way:
Faceware is not intended to be a stand alone product.  It is designed to be used in a production pipeline consisting of many different products.  Since technology is always evolving (some product updates are monthly), there is a constant need to adjust your product to a needed pipeline.  There will always be bugs in this process.  In addition, the film industry (and more and more, the gaming industry) are on the cutting edge of technology.  It is their needs and ideas that drive products like Faceware to get better and better.  For example, maybe a company like Disney has developed some software in-house and they want Faceware to connect with it (just an example).  Faceware has a support team that can deal with that because that means lucrative business for them.  Of course they are also on call for indie studios and hobbyists who are having problems making the software do what they want.  Anyhow, I don't know why you ask this question.  Every decent company has support.  I have customer support for my low-tech refrigerator.  It certainly isn't any indication of how faulty a product may be.
dr.zap
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By the way, for anyone who is squeamish about Faceware's price tag, you need to do some research.  Check out the prices on companies like Dynamixyz, Optitrak and Vicon.  When you're finished counting the zeros on their prices, maybe you will come running to give your wallet to Faceware.  You really don't know what a deal it is.
but0fc0ursee
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TonyDPrime (8/7/2017)
Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?

You regularlly hear: iClone Real Time Live....

When you enter the realm of "High-End".... "Professional Grade"....Top of the Line software....this is what you get:
~ Copyright Algorithms
"Marketed for Professional Use"

Real Time Live

From this point forward..... "They got you and they know it." You want THIS?.... PAY THIS!
Don't like it?.... don't buy it?

Reallusion teaming up with Faceware and XSens provides iClone with "PRO TOOLS."
Pro Tools cost big $$$.


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4 Years Ago by but0fc0ursee
but0fc0ursee
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@Kellytoons,

Did you see that?
~ Scan a photo
~ 3D Hair with detailed poly strips. (Solves different hair style request) Wow
~ 3D avatar with distinct features (the mesh conforms to the image)... Cheeks, Forehead, Chin, Nose, Eyes.... all change SHAPE.w00t
~ Facial mocap
Real Time Live
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TonyDPrime
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dr.zap (8/7/2017)
TonyDPrime (8/7/2017)

Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?  Is it on a solutions-specific basis, outside of the scope of normal use type-thing, like consulting?  Or, is it paying, like insurance or a warranty plan on a product, if the product fails?  Like, is the product so riddled with obstacles, issues, and faults that the average user is expected to expect they occur, and thus you get the optimized experience if you have support?  
 


Since you seem to be unaware of how professionals work, I will explain things as simply as I can.  I am not in the 3d/FX business, but most collaborative business works this way:
Faceware is not intended to be a stand alone product.  It is designed to be used in a production pipeline consisting of many different products.  Since technology is always evolving (some product updates are monthly), there is a constant need to adjust your product to a needed pipeline.  There will always be bugs in this process.  In addition, the film industry (and more and more, the gaming industry) are on the cutting edge of technology.  It is their needs and ideas that drive products like Faceware to get better and better.  For example, maybe a company like Disney has developed some software in-house and they want Faceware to connect with it (just an example).  Faceware has a support team that can deal with that because that means lucrative business for them.  Of course they are also on call for indie studios and hobbyists who are having problems making the software do what they want.  Anyhow, I don't know why you ask this question.  Every decent company has support.  I have customer support for my low-tech refrigerator.  It certainly isn't any indication of how faulty a product may be.

--------------------------------------

By the way, for anyone who is squeamish about Faceware'sprice tag, you need to do some research. Check out the prices on companies like Dynamixyz, Optitrak andVicon.  When you're finished counting thezeros on their prices, maybe you will come running to give your wallet toFaceware.  You really don't know what adeal it is.




"I am not in the 3d/FX business"....Don't downplay your talents and skills.  They are great!  You know value vs non-value.
You raise a very good point -  Are we going to be paying a premium price for a low tech refrigerator's 'support'...And, are you (the iClone community) going to blindly "come running to give them your wallet."  


Edited
4 Years Ago by TonyDPrime
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but0fc0ursee (8/7/2017)
TonyDPrime (8/7/2017)
Question - why do you need support at all for the product, in the first place?

You regularlly hear: iClone Real Time Live....

When you enter the realm of "High-End".... "Professional Grade"....Top of the Line software....this is what you get:
~ Copyright Algorithms
"Marketed for Professional Use"

Real Time Live

From this point forward..... "They got you and they know it." You want THIS?.... PAY THIS!
Don't like it?.... don't buy it?

Reallusion teaming up with Faceware and XSens provides iClone with "PRO TOOLS."
Pro Tools cost big $$$.




None of the video was iClone!  The face thing with the flashlight was awesome though!
BTW - in the music production industry, 'ProTools' is the most over-priced and over-hyped hardware-software package ever!



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