There are plenty here who are not scared of competition, and know how to hold their own by providing superior quality. And don't try to drag in Reallusion, for Reallusion is trying heart and soul to build pipelines with other software. They are also building packs with lookalikes in Daz and counterparts in iClone. And they are also trying incessantly to wiggle out of bindings by providing users the right to create iAvatars using clonebone and creature bases. Such iAvatars do not need autodesk as a component.

But there will of course be some who are scared of competition, want to keep the situation as it is so that superior content creators from other artist communities are not attracted to supply to the Reallusion market. And they can keep having a private party at the cost of consumers.

No software company, including autdesk Max creates systems with great advantages but without export options in other file formats including open file formats like Collada. But iClone has no export options. This I think is not a matter of choice but must be due either to the software's inability or due to third party licensing reasons. But definitely not due to Reallusion's own wish.

However, for unethical and unscruplous content suppliers this is a grand situation where competition and consumer options are ousted simply by the creation of a cul-de-sac for consumers and users. A lovely Venus-fly-trap. You can get in, but can't get out with your work.

Your continual misleading by trying to imply that I am copying or duplicating things in iClone and exporting them is pointless. If I could do that I would have offered the plugin to Reallusion first and retired on the profits.

I am building things from scratch in other software so that users can have lookalikes of their animation characters. Whether they will look fake or not is for those to judge who will use my services.

As for your argument of who would want counterparts to be used in other software, I am again reminding you that Reallusion itself is marketing packs both with iClone and Daz counterparts. So, why don't you and your friends first object to Reallusion's actions?

Cloner's Cafe

I am involved with some projects about a character named Pinhead.  He was originally a drawn 2D character and then advanced to a 3d character in Iclone thanks to wires.  Are you saying that you could recreate him so that I could use him inside Poser, for example?  So you are not actually exporting him from Iclone....you are simply recreating a good likeness so that I could incorporate some Poser animations with my Iclone animations - to add things to my stories that I maybe cannot create inside Iclone?

Just trying to simplify what has become confusing here.

And at the same time, if I built a prop inside Iclone, and I want to use that prop in my poser animation, you can recreate a likeness of that prop - is that correct?

Thanks.

Alley  

Acid comments about me involved in "fear of competition" are totally ridiculous, mainly when I am the ONLY one posting useful tutorials, teaching how to become a competitor!    Why don't you do the same and publish some tutorials about how to make "look-alikes"?  That would be really generous!    Oh!   Maybe I'll do it!

Now;  what Alley clarifies is transparent.  If it is a matter of proprietary designs such as Pinhead, which is her creation, very popular indeed, she is entitled to allow the creation of a "lookalike" version.    What I was saying and feel I have the right to express it, because I was invited, is that NO user or person would have the right to order a "lookalike" of products sold, created or provided by Reallusion or CCD's.

Of course I am not going to keep for ever involved in this nonsense!   I just will remark:  iClone is NOT a modeler program.  "props" created by agglutinating primitive elements can be easily recreated with other software, so it is not a big deal, but if someone wants it... Bingo!  There you are!

I have NO concern about a non user comments on my products.  I take very seriously my users, which are VERY satisfied.  My outstanding sales record versus no claims shows it clearly.

I am so sorry Surajit takes this so personal, getting to the point of using "ad hominem" arguments to discredit my own opinion, which I expressed BY INVITATION!

Said this, thread is dead for me!

Mike

Mike Aparicio  Reallusion Certified Content Developer Really Certified     

Yes that is exactly what I would like to do without hurting anybody's business interests. I have been building meshes and rigging and texturing in Poser, Daz, and Blender for a long time, and have friends who are fast at it.

I live in a city which is one of the jewel hubs of the world and one of the principal suppliers to all places including Amsterdam.

The people working for me are people who use laser technology on jewels to use visual references and create exact replicas for the imitation industry, and by that I mean not fake jewels but imitations, claimed as imitations and sold as imitations at the price of imitations.

Using wireframe mode of objects as visual reference in any software opened on the screen, they can create duplicates or close likenesses, line by line with amazing accuracy while working on another computer with different software.

They basically work in a trance like state, and charge very reasonably and are mostly illiterate or school dropouts.

When I found this out, I thought that I could help some of them by hiring their services for creating likenesses in obj format of characters people create for themselves in iClone and then supply back to the original creator as a service. I gave them some tests and they amazed me with their level of skill. They do not know anything about texturing or anything, just build meshes, build meshes, build meshes...

Now if it is a character that is commercially sold, I will do the conversion of an identical visual representation only for the creator or with his license, or the person who orders me the work will have to obtain necessary permissions if required.

So even though your friend created the visual representation of pinhead for iClone, I will not creat an identical representation without his permission. However if an iClone user alters your friend's character sufficiently to differ from being an identical representation of the original piece; does this for own animation work, then I am ready to support up by creating visual replica of that character meshed, skeletoned, rigged, textured and ready for use in Daz, Poser, or a few other formats available to me including FBX.

In iClone, animators often change head shapes and face textures and body shapes of characters to suit their animation and storyline. When the visual representation, or looks of the character becomes unique, I am willing to replicate that as a functioning poser or daz or fbx figure for the creator for personal use in personal animation and commercial image outputs.

If he or she wants to sell the obj and rigged figure the terms and legalities would be different, but they will be there.

In the end I provide a workaround for animators who are tremendously satisfied with iClone and do their major work in iClone, but feel stifled being unable to use their other software too in conjunction with their storyline.

I intend to provide reasonable rates and excellent service.

And I am going to work and build irrespective of whether iClone users use my services or not. There are plenty software and communities around who have need for good services at reasonable rates.

In this forum itself, I have read people clearly stating that their decision for not buying iClone was because there was no "export" facility.

Now, "export" facility does not matter to an animator whose end product is video. What matters is whether he can have reasonable likeness ready for use in other software satisfying his needs of the characters he is using in iclone.

At least, now there would be a service available.

If such a person intends to use iclone characters visually as they are sold in the market, then for getting me to replicate he or she would have to obtain necessary permissions from the creators of those likenesses, whether the creator be Reallusion, or clones2go or coolcreators.

However, if he had altered the visual likeness of the character sufficiently to differentiate it from readymade characters in the market, I will provide my service without such riders.

Regards

Surajit

Cloner's Cafe

Surajit, I have no doubt your heart is in the right place. The service your offering will definitely be a tremendous asset. Don't be discouraged from others opinions. Welcome them and continually make your service better. Remember the comments addressed to you site at the beginning... As you continually make it better... Go For It and Good Luck!

Mike Apparition... Sir, I Salute you and "Hats Off" to you for your "Never Before Seen" Level of contributions to the community. Regardless of 'Other Tutors' stating, "Don't give away all the secrets," you continually Teach Us! THANK YOU!

Aknzrdude... A Big Salute To You Too... THANK YOU SIR!

I'm Eternally Greatfull to..... SHYGIRL... My Lady, You Guided Me Past A Very Difficult Time! THANK YOU MA' AM!

Sir Peter Edwards... Thank You Sir!

IN THE END:  It was Alley's Post That Brought Me To My Senses! It's Just A Hobby!     Thank You Alley!  

Surajit: Thank You, but No Thank You!

Kind Regards, sw00000p

I feel I need to correct you here Surajit. The reason there is no export option in iClone is Reallusion's decision. Some time ago it was considered but was decided against. It has nothing to do with the reasons you state here but is purely a marketing decision.

iClone is a 3D Movie Machine. It is a self contained "film studio" for creating movies. While it offers some 3D modelling features that isn't where it is positioned in the market right now.

As to Mike's points. I can understand what he is saying. Recreating a model with the original creators permission is one thing, but making copies of models without permission would certainly be unacceptable to most developers.

 

Peter Edwards
Forum Moderator

iClone Daily Blog

You could have saved me a lot of breath if you had joined earlier, but I know at least the well known problems that had been going on regarding server issues and iClone4 installation. I know you were pretty busy.

Now, lets make some thing clear to me and also to others following this thread:

Since, it is Reallusion's intention and conscious decision not to provide export functions in iClone, I would like to know the official take on the following issue:

Reallusion provides the latitude of changing the looks of models including, face, skin, size and a host of other features. Once the model's look is changed according to the wish of the user of iClone and becomes entirely different from the looks the model has while sold as it is in the market, how does the creator of the model have the right to prevent re-creation of the altered figure in different software?

The mesh will be different, the grouping would be different, the skeletal structure would be different, the software used to create would be different, and the looks of the model would be different from that built by the original modeller. It will only be true in looks to the look given to the model by the end user or consumer. And the right to change the looks is inherent in all the features of iclone.

What rights of the original creator is lost or being transgressed under such conditions?

Kindly consider and provide your answer.

Regards

Surajit

Cloner's Cafe

Regards

Surajit

Cloner's Cafe

I think the differences in thought come from the way Surajit interprets iClone, it's content and mainly it's purpose.   I agree the thread author has the right to create services, and offer them I am NOT objecting it, or objecting any other thing, except the idea of offering reproductions of my own works, no matter they have been distorted or recolored.

We must understand iClone architecture.  Characters are actually made from the addition of upper and lower components, as well as accessories, hands, hair and faces.   This means practically nothing of the original base character remains, after it has been "assembled" by the user.     From the above components, only the faces can be considered a user creation product, and of course, the simple props and scenarios built using the primitive elements supplied.

The other components, which contribute to the character look are created by third party developers or Reallusion itself, and are the ones which give the avatar the particular "look".  To make an example:  Let´s take for instance a very nice Pirate produced by a well known CCD.   What makes the Pirate look like a Pirate is the work done; first by creating very specially shaped mesh and by a careful elaboration of suitable texture maps, which are probably the most important contributors for the final "character look".

This means that for actually making a "look alike" version of anything, the TEXTURE maps must be EXACTLY reproduced to the minimum detail, to maintain the mentioned likeness.

The User has several options to ALTER the characters in order to use them for producing a movie, illustration or widget.   He can "distort" it by altering proportions.  He can change the material settings to make it "look" different.  All with the purpose of USING IT TO ANIMATE WITHIN ICLONE.   The originator of the textures and mesh is entitled to refuse replication of his ARTISTIC designs.   If the user creates TEXTURES, those are not mesh so are no part of This talk. He can submit them. He can sell them. He can give them away.  Alright!

I understand some possible interest in "using other software" to produce video.  I do not understand why this should be done with the same characters used in iCLone.  Better stay in iClone and do it there.  It is a LOT what can be done!  LEt's first learn to do it!

If this is so important, the expertise mentioned by Surajit could be used to create NEW characters!  With different versions for not only iClone but for the other available programs.

That is the market opened for the clever people working with Surajit.  Create more!  Create new! Create a better line of avatars which work with ALL programs.  That is which really will fulfil the users request, more than anything else!

Mike

Mike Aparicio  Reallusion Certified Content Developer Really Certified