With all due respect to Reallusion's propreitory rights over its content and other material, sometimes animators who use more than one software may find it useful to have their characters and prop sets that are in iClone to be available in obj or other formats.

Maybe everybody knows how to do this already, I know I am dumb.

However if anybody has prepared their own characters and sets in iClone, transforming which into obj or other formats for them can be done without transgressing copyrights, I would be happy to provide and start a service if anybody expresses interest.

Especially as the export tab in iClone 4 still does not provide exporting in obj, or a host of other formats.

Thing has been done and pilot project completed. And it has been done without any reverse engineering or touching any code in the iClone software.

Regards

Surajit

Cloner's Cafe

sw00000p

Kindly note that I will be creating faithful and accurate representations without abusing iClone files or meshes or subjecting them to any process. I need your iClone avatar or prop file only as a reference to create the obj or other file reproduction. However the representations would be amazingly accurate.

Every artist signing up for the service would be provided one free reproduction in case of props, (not avatars) to guage the accuracy of service. I am creating an entirely separate and SSL secured site for this and related service that will be provided also to other artist communities besides that of Reallusion.

In a nutshell, I can only serve those and re-create those props and avatars that

1. following the guidelines of RL would be considered salable as valid products in RL's store (meet the requirements), OR

2. Are not identical in look with RL's default characters or third party characters or props - If you have retextured and realigned Jane's face, then the look is not identical, and such a character personally created by you can be recreated in obj format by me for you. What you do with that is your concern.

 Kindly also note that according to current international copyright law, there is no more any propreitory right over fashion or visible representations of design elements in garments.

3. Do not have copyright hassle attached to them or have unrestricted rights assigned or your ability to use the props are clear and confirmed, like many freebies downloaded and converted by you using 3dExchange.

In this context you might think that how would that be useful since you had access to other formats or you would not have used 3d Exchange in the first place. We would also be providing ancillary services of polygon reduction that would count. So you would get back the prop you have already converted at a much reduced polygon count and still faithfully maintaining its looks.

This is just to help animators in the RL community find a way out for some things they might want and widen their horizons at extremely reasonable charges and save time.

The end representations in obj format created from your iClone files would remain yours for personal use.

If you follow the Daz market, Reallusion itself is already doing this and the entire Medieval Village pack is divided into three/four volumes and available at a much lower gross price at Daz than at the RL store, and includes both iClone and Daz/Poser props. The vendor is of course Reallusion.

It would be nice if anybody who had questions or reservations after reading this, post them here and offer me a chance to either answer or rethink my approach.

Last thing, I do not use autodesk so will not be able to provide 3dsMax formats, though a great number of other common fomats will be available.


Cloner's Cafe

Am I understanding correctly? Are you saying that I could for example:

Re-Texture and Change the Facial features of an RL Character, i.e. Dylan or Jana and you would convert that to an Accurate OBJ file format. I could then import that obj to 3ds max, then export it into iClone 4, and it will be recognized as a standard character.

If the answer is yes, what would this cost... Per Character!

sw00000p

There are many things to be considered, not the least the interests of Reallusion. And which should not override the interests of animation itself.

To be true I was thinking only of helping animators to create parts of their animations within different software using props and characters that looked identical, thus leading to widening of the powers of users of iclone.

Now that you mention it, yes what you say could be done, but the implications are pretty heavyweight. I might have to reconsider my terms and business strategy, for all along, side by side with increasing the powers of iClone users, it is my intent to introduce other small and big artist communities to iClone. This cannot be achieved by restrictive policy, but by what I intend, where a Vue, or Poser, or Daz, or Truespace or any other software user including gamers would have models, props, and characters available that will be in the native formats of the software they regularly use and will also have existent iClone counterparts. This will increase the interests of those communities in iClone, and iClone4 being what it has shown itself to be, I think artists in general would benefit.

I am already building poser and daz characters, (not simple props) that are identical to iClone characters. I will post links to demostrative videos next. My terms and conditions may include the option of joining me in reaching out to other communities as well as Reallusion. Forget the costs if you do that and think about earning through creating beauty and helping artists.

In fact I can also provide the models in FBX format complete with rigging and weighting done for MAX by Alias software which would be much more compatible with autodesk and get your work done in a jiffy. I have special software only for this purpose, though I have not bought and do not use Max itself.

Really, I want iClone to be free of the dependency on autodesk Max, and would be happy if it is able to build a pipeline with other software like blender, which I know Reallusion is trying to do.

Cloner's Cafe

Although Surajit's intentions seem helpful and interesting, may I comment on the question regarding if a "recreated" character would then be able to be imported into MAX, then exported back to iClone. I would rather be sceptical, without implying Surajit has not clearly figured this.

A suitable mesh character to be exported to iClone has several VERY stringent requirements.   It is broken into several parts, which have connection points with precise terminal vertex counts at each junction.

Rigging the imported mesh to the iClone standard bone system would then be a very difficult and frustrating task, as the bone systems has been carefully designed around the template mesh by RL.   This means a heavy burden adjusting the skeleton first, which incidentally behaves quite strangely, then applying a skin modifier to a totally different mesh structure.

The best and luckiest approach to create iClone characters is starting by the templates and modifying them to new shapes by ADJUSTING the skeleton proportions and doing slight tweaking of the skin mesh, WITHOUT ADDING OR REMOVING polygons, worst WITHOUT changing at all the joint terminations.

Hence character replicas seem to be a highly complex task, not saying it can't be done.  It only requires 3DS MAX mastery to accomplish.

Replicating props and accessories would not be that difficult, but hair and other items are in the same class as replicating base mesh.   Quite an ordeal!

Any way...  Why wasting efforts redoing what is already done?  Better invest your proficient MAX knowledge in creating new items to expand the available content libraries!

Mike

Mike Aparicio  Reallusion Certified Content Developer Really Certified     

If you read my thread, then this is veering away from my actual intentions. sw0000p's requirements are personal. Something which I have not considered while posting this thread, but am now in the process of considering and preparing.

My intention once again, is to increase the reach of both iClone and iClone users by increasing their latitude of using common and cost-effective software. If you think joining in such a venture is waste of efforts, it is your opinion, and you are welcome to it.

At this stage we cannot draw any conclusions until the experimentation is complete.

I have been able to get things into DAZ/Poser, and of course there are corners in the system that need to be streamlined.

Reallusion also recognizes the need of spreading to other systems and making pipelines compatible with other software. The recent foray into zbrush and announced intentions of building a pipeline with blender include that. Reallusion itself is marketing products with both iclone and daz counterparts at the Daz market.

If you think that it is all a waste of efforts, then of course, that is your opinion. Autodesk Max is just another software, but it is costly and out of the reach of 90% of artists and students in the world. If it was the solution to everything then all other software companies, including Reallusion to whom you supply your products should have packed up and left the market, all being a waste of efforts.

Cloner's Cafe

Don't be over sensitive on this!   I never implied to diminish your efforts.   Nor am I saying the "only way to do things is via MAX"  No.  Not at all.   What I was saying is, and let me explain clearly without ANY intention on causing discomfort:   iClone is NOT a creation or modeling tool so EVERY component it loads was first either an OBJ, a 3DS or FBX or a GoogleWorks piece of mesh.

Then, who would be interested in reverting an iClone item into what it was before?

The originators or creators of original mesh items WOULD NOT like their creations to be "copied" into another format.  Please Surajit. Reconsider what I am saying.  I am certainly not daring to attack you in any manner.  Realize it clearly:  iClone is a program that receives input from other programs.  It does NOT produce any output except for images, animations faces, and textures or materials.  Even textures will require using another painting program as there are no real painting tools in it.  Less modeling tools of any kind.

Please tell me and I will immediately change my opinion:   Which items FROM iClone can be subject to the process you describe?

I also understand very well Karma and I would never try to imply you are doing something wrong.  So please, don't get upset and feel my questions and observations are valid.

Let's get an explanation from you, as it seems I have not understood exactly your proposition!

Friendly ALL the time!

Mike

Mike Aparicio  Reallusion Certified Content Developer Really Certified     

I do not export anything from iClone or cannot create anything within iClone except what it permits.

What I am creating is lookalikes using other software for building meshes and texturing, which can then be available to a personal user as a obj lookalike (amazingly accurate) model of a model he or she created in iClone and uses on a regular basis for animation. This will extend his/her capabilities to carry and conduct part of his storyline using the abilities of other software provided the lookalikes are sufficiently convincing.

I personally would like to get dark knight into bryce and have the waters in a seashore lapping his feet and receding. I would like to use the characters I build and use in animation in iClone to be in Blender and have shots with fluid dynamics with drops of water actually falling and trickling down the skin. As far as the end products are videos, no watcher is going to get into the video and find out that the jane in scene A and the jane in scene B were shot in different software, have different meshes, and different skeletons. It is the identical visual representation that matters.

As for what is legal, I know my law and respect it. As for what is ethical, I believe in amplifying the powers of animators and not in penning them in my stable to skin them at leisure. And as for my world of art, tools don't rule, artists do.

And as for your comment that iClone is not a modelling tool, it is a very good modelling tool for beginners, both to build complex and simple props, and it has just got much, much better.

Cloner's Cafe

I certainly want you to be assured it is not my intention to antagonize your proposition.  But I would have to resort to my very, very long experience as a complex video and film effects and animation producer, for many, many years.

I would humbly have to emphasize iClone is NOT a modeling program at all!    You can "glue" together some simple primitives to form simple objects which could be, with over enthusiasm, called "modeling".

But that is not my point in this conversation, to which you explicitly invited in your first post.

All CHARACTERS usable in iClone are under a royalty free agreement but for iCLone usage.  You can also use the results of your iClone works in forms of videos, illustrations, etc. but this does not imply an end user can also "make copies" or "look alikes" of those, "to be used in other programs like Bryce or whatever"!    As I said clearly:  I would object seriously such action and I think all other developers including Reallusion would object the same way.

Another element contributing to this discussion is the fact, iClone 3 and the new super powerful iClone 4 are complete production work houses!   I can hardly envision the need of such migration, especially now, that iClone has Video texture facilities, image overlays, HDR, path and trajectory, Lip Sync, "Puppeteering", and so many other features which would require a bundle of programs to do it separately.

The same argument you mentioned about cost suggests the proper attitude for an iClone user or producer:   Learn about it a lot!   It will take time!  iClone is complex and powerful!  It takes great efforts to master it...  But it is really, really low cost for it's powers.

And at last:  I still do not understand where did you get the idea iClone is convenient to modeling or that objects can be "created with it"...   If it is by "gluing primitives" then...  You can do spheres, boxes, planes cones and doughnuts (toroids) right at Bryce... Why "exporting them"?

If I would need what you mention about doing "water drops falling on my avatar's face, in a clear moonlight night, while fish are jumping out of the water" and 550 sleepless mosquitos fly around the shimmering light of a gas lamp"....

Well... Then my iClone "look alike" would "look so fake" I would have to make it from scratch.... Right in MAX! 

Oh boy!  Conversations is real and elegant fun!

Mike

Mike Aparicio  Reallusion Certified Content Developer Really Certified