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Veteran
 
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| | You have actually also targeted this software to a new threat that was not very big before. When you lock up something and start to be a dictator with complete control, that is a roar to attract every hacker, and cracker and anti protection code kid in exitance. Why do you think that every thing Microsoft does is attacked and must be protected within hours. GOOD ANSWER, Hackers hate Microsoft and that has gone in generations now. Just look at the market. This will in the end also attract a market where you suddenly can't control anything. Again look at what happened to microsoft and autodesc and macintosh and so, and so... all has lost their true base of power because hackers killed all their real protection and not to mention the virus specific attacks. When you want to details control anything on the net you also scream for freedom attacks on it! I actually took the liberty to check around a bit and I can tell you that this has started, and it will get worse, much worse... A worried, quite sad and a bit stunned Gorz
 White Tiger Web Shop found at http://www.gallery.swcab.nu/          
Animated ANIMALS, live props, live animals, ordinary props, music, freebies and much more....  |
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Junior Member
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| Hey again,
It's good to see everyone participating in the discussion and feel so passionately for iClone and Reallusion.
Here are the topics:
1. EULA
2. Gorz questions
EULA
So when we look at Clause 3:
You may generate, sell and redistribute your movies created with iClone
and/or CrazyTalk with full ownership and use-rights to the output media in
Image or Video format within the output guidelines of this agreement.
That's cool! So that means I can use iClone3 or CrazyTalk to make movies, sell them, create funny videos and give them as birthday gifts! But then, I look at Clause 4
Clause 4 states:
iClone and/or CrazyTalk output may be used, altered, or incorporated according to
the guidelines described herein into any work (including broadcast, commercial,
industrial, educational, and personal) that is created by YOU provided that work is
not then sold or distributed as either a single image, part of clip-art library, or stock
video or image collection.
What?! Sounds contradictory, doesn't it!? And if you said, "Yes, it does, Mr. Clonebot" Then you deserve a pat on the back for being absolutely intelligent!
Let me clear it up!
EULAs are non-retroactive, which means if you buy CrazyTalk5, that EULA is your EULA until the end of time. This new EULA is still a working document, and will be effective with the release of CrazyTalk6 (Now I done it, tipped off a release of a product)!
A working document means we are still hammering out the words. Clause 3 is the new one and it is highlighted so you can see the new freedom you will have. Clause 4 is not highlighted cause it is not the final draft. There will be a prohibitive use pertaining to stock videos and stock images... but don't quote me on that yet...
So the morale of the story is, your old EULA applies to you, when you buy new products from Reallusion, there will be a new EULA specifically design to give you more freedom to distribute your output. Sorry for the confusion 
Gorz Questions
He had a lot of good questions, so let's share them here:
Can I render let's say 50 ICON:s to a development and embed these into the code? The EULA states that I can not spread image collection:s, question is the embedded ICON:s to be regarded as a collection of images. I usually use formats like .jpg, .bmp, .gif and some times .ico format.
Yes, you can! You may use images rendered from iClone to create those Icons.
Can I render a collection of instruction movies and embed these into the software to clarify and enhance clarity of the softwares ( my developed software:s ) usage?
Yes, you can! In fact, if you want to generate more exposure for you software, post those videos to our Reallusion TV! 
If webshops like White Tiger, CoolClones and Clones2GO and others make commercial film clip like I did of two deers in a nature frame, after that I have some other pictures rendered from the same setup as thumbnail and product picture + maby one or two extra for information and service to the customer, I THE BREAK THE EULA AGREMENT!
How do the external web shops suppose to act to make PR within the EULA?????
No need to worry about this, since this is not part of the iClone3 EULA. And Clause 4 will be removed or edited to specifically state the prohibition of generating stock videos and images.
Are you sure it is lawyers who wrote this ?
Yes, I am sure. But I have to reassure everyone, we keep our shameless lawyers locked in cages. We only let them out for the following reasons:
1) Go for walks- or this place would be quite messy
2) Write Contracts and EULAs
3) And other lawyerly fun things
Here at Reallusion, we love creativity, and we foster it through the Developer Center and Creative Resource Center.
Lawyers don't steer the ship of Reallusion, our customers do...
Since everyone is giving Mr. Peter Edwards nice remarks, I thought I should jump in with my two cents! Pete has been a close friend and ally of both me and Reallusion. Throughout the years he has helped support us and keep the forum a place where people could ask their questions, get their answers and give & receive constructive criticism. I think Pete should run for President... but being he is British, I guess we just have to setter for Prime Minister...
Prime Minister Edwards, has a nice ring to it, no?!
Reallusion CloneBot
Helping you to develop, for everyone's benefit  |
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Tutor
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| | You see guys? I knew our Good friend CloneBot Zack would come up and make all of us happy again! This is actually another game! "The Forum War against The Lord of the Lawyers"  And we win. Clever as always, lawyers put two paragraphs, contradictory in essence so in case of trouble they will come up and say: "Yea, that's what it is but look at this paragraph, here we have a window to escape" Then comes CloneBot and bangs on the meeting table and says: "Let me fix this. I have to take care of our product, you legalese confounders...!" Gorz says something of relevance. Piracy is attacking now iClone. Too bad! I wonder if it is a product of wrong policies or the simple trend of the underground markets. We must be aware and report to R.L. any findings about illegal usage of either programs or content. We must together fight the plague that kills most good software when the lawyers start making it attractive to software thiefs! Thanks CloneBot for coming up and telling us the EULA is not really the final EULA. Also he confirms what I told the lawyers. The only valid EULA is the one you agreed upon accepting it at the moment of installation. Good! Let's relax again.... Until tomorrow! 
Mike Aparicio Reallusion Certified Content DeveloperReally Certified 
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Apparition's Good Friends Gallery - Lucky of me!
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| | | Senior Member
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Last Login: 1/2/2010 8:56:26 AM
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| | Thanks for the clarifications and assurances CloneBot. But I still don't get one thing. (I'm dumb for sure) It is people who create short clips and video footage for sale, that need software like iClone. Big animation studios create their own software or use high end and pricey solutions like Massive etc. If adding the product clip or short animation as part of display in a stock video or image library is prohibited, how are these countless end producers going to reach the market? If the more than 100,000 users of iClone were all producing big video films, and personally marketing and distributing them, they would all be production houses. I had an idea that iClone was the common man's movie machine. And it is hard for me to understand what is to be gained by prohibiting stocking of video footage and image clips without creating viable alternatives for the end user to reach the market with his/her goods. Pardon my comments if any had crossed prohibitory limits, but having boarded the Reallusion ship and having decided to make my voyage on it, I do feel concerned at the sight of black clouds. I fervently hope all my fears are meaningless and the popularity of iClone and content sale would continue to increase even though people will not be able to add their clips or footage to stocks, but will have to market them piecemeal by themselves. Regards Surajit
Cloner's Cafe |
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| | In my mind this is a bit scilly, what would people say if PENTAX or CANON or any other manufacturer of i.e cameras would say: - in our EULA we state that you can only photograph your grandma 3 times / month and never more than 10 good pictures during a year! We have exclusive right to every picture taken with our camera. This is applicable by Californian LAW unless it is about aunty Heather with the short Black dress A render engine like iClone is in my mind very much a VR camera allowing you to film and photograph your scenes in detail and then distribute, sell or in any other way expose your creative talent. In my mind this is very much the same thing... I agree that a good taste clause of the intellectual property like not USING i.e. Trinity in a sexshow or what ever is valid, but still trying with a law from california controlling the entire world is a bit dumb. So I do think that a lawyer in China would probably laugh as much as the lawyers I asked here in SWEDEN about Californian law was applicable. The international copyright laws that states your owner ship and prohibition to spread the software is very much in effective here. But Californian law as such is not regarded much as anything that we care about. If I write a Swedish EULA re one of my softwares I don't think anybody in US would care much about that... In my mind what we should strive for is a creative space within certain rules where Reallusion, the CCD program have a bit of a service function to live up to, this to let us all be able to create our dreams and our visions without a stupid lawyer standing there blithering about the law. Common sense is what we all finally work from, being illegal is the easiest thing in the world, proving that it is so, almost impossible. The best space in the entire existence is the virtual computer world where no one actually needs to know who did what! Let us see a EULA that recognize creativity and ingenuity and freedom of thought, I for one think that creative artists like "Armstrong" here in the forum has huge amount to teach us mortals about beauty and freedom of creation with sometimes simple means, sometimes a bit more tricks and trial and error. It would be a disaster to restrict a wizard like that! Render, be happy and keep dreaming about wonderful things to SHOW us, your audience! Gorz
White Tiger Web Shop found at http://www.gallery.swcab.nu/
Animated ANIMALS, live props, live animals, ordinary props, music, freebies and much more.... |
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Tutor
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| Sorry for coming late to this discussion, and I may not be well-informed, but I have a problem with the prohibition on the sale of intellectual property created with the applications to stock image and video venues.
1) I am not aware that Adobe puts an analogous prohibition on original video sweetened and edited with Premiere or After Effects, or original photographs altered with PhotoShop. You buy the software, you do your work, you make a living best you can.
2) iClone and CrazyTalk could be used to create totally de novo works that do not contain a single shred of purchased content. Let's say I create an animated GIF of a flying crow from original video footage, apply it as a material to a largely transparent box, and move that through space in iClone, thereby making a totally original work. I can't sell that to a stock house? I think the prohibition is unenforceable for this clear-cut reason. But there are vastly more cases which are not so clear-cut which come under the fair-use doctrine. If I alter Trey or Violet beyond recognition, tweak the mocap, add creative lighting and set design, I very quickly reach the point where the new work is the moral property of the creator, and the software (astoundingly smart though it may be!) is just a dumb tool, such as a paintbrush.
3) I understand RL's business model is selling 3D software, probably with an even greater emphasis on revenue from content packs. If that is true, then I really have a hard time understanding how the proliferation of 2D images, whether they are still or moving, represent unfair competition in the first place. Of these 3 points, this one is the one we really need to talk about. I am a huge proponent of artists' rights. If we could understand how RL is trying to legitimately protect its own artists (and engineers; and its partners), perhaps I could be persuaded to support you on this. Otherwise, I think it's nonsense, and would urge users to bone up on Fair Use principles.
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Tutor
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| Apparition (5/15/2009)
I was so astonished reading this! I have been training my students to become proficient in iCLone production. But not to play games. It was with the intention of providing them with the right knowledge to buy and use a tool good for making movies, videos, educational material and so forth, TO BE SOLD. ALL THIS IS FORBBIDEN in the new EULA. Hi Mike, Hopefully Zack has explained everything clearly now but I would like to add that even if Clause 4 were to stay intact in the final revision of the EULA, it does not mean you can't sell your videos as maybe you seemed to think in the quote above. It clearly states that Clause 4 applies only to: "Single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection" That means that your personally created movies, videos can be still sold or shared so no one should feel their freedom in this area is being impeeded. Don't you just love all this legal stuff.
Peter Edwards
Forum Administrator http://twitter.com/iclonedaily |
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| CloneBot Zack (5/15/2009)
Since everyone is giving Mr. Peter Edwards nice remarks, I thought I should jump in with my two cents! Pete has been a close friend and ally of both me and Reallusion. Throughout the years he has helped support us and keep the forum a place where people could ask their questions, get their answers and give & receive constructive criticism. I think Pete should run for President... but being he is British, I guess we just have to setter for Prime Minister...
Prime Minister Edwards, has a nice ring to it, no?!
Thanks Zack.  Based on the way things are at the moment I probabably couldn't do a worse job than the current PM. Then again..... Psst I'll give you cash I promised you later. 
Peter Edwards
Forum Administrator http://twitter.com/iclonedaily |
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Tutor
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| By the way, for what it's worth--perhaps not much--I agree with Gorz that RL has an interest in protecting its business by prohibiting what the creation of what I would call toxic media.
But as he pointed out, a product sold internationally is hard to regulate in the first place, and even here in the US, free speech laws might complicate the effort to regulate users.
But what's more problematic is the prospect of having a double standard for sex and violence. RL, you leaped aboard that oh-so slippery slope when you added a psychopath character and bloody body parts to your Backstage prop set.
In my opinion, the pornography of violence always trumps the pornography of pornography. |
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| | | Senior Member
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| | I may not have an English major, but I did my 5-year degree law course from Department of Law, Calcutta University, one of (if not the oldest) universities in Asia. Incidentally, I did pass the paper on Interpretation of Deeds and Documents. I had a successful practising life for eight years then chose to leave the profession to follow my heart. I know what I see. The rules of interpretation say while interpreting any clause, the plain meaning, and not contrived meanings, have precedence. To make it easy to find the plain meaning and intent of the parties, it is common practice to break the clause into phrases for easier analysis. I am breaking the statement in clause 4 of the EULA below so that the plain meaning (the one that has precedence in courts) becomes visible. 4. iClone and/or CrazyTalk output, may be used, altered, or incorporated according to the guidelines described herein into any work (including broadcast, commercial, industrial, educational, and personal) that is created by YOU PROVIDED that work is not then sold or distributed as either a single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection. Pete, Zack happened to mention that you are British. You can find some of my articles on British, and European IP law on this page http://www.lawcrossing.co.uk/article/lcarticlearchive.php?type=239 You'll find the following articles among others penned by me (against fees) there: |  | Principles of Damages for Patent Infringement The Consequences of Unilin v. Berry for IP Rights Infringement in the UK |
Hope you like them. I did not give you links to my articles on the IP laws of other countries for it would be irrelevant to you. And by the way, clause 4 means exactly what it says. If anything that passes through iClone is part of your content, either whole or in part, then you cannot sell or distribute that through the modes mentioned in the clause. The only, and unviable, option remains to personally sell and distribute your work piecemeal. Regards Surajit
Cloner's Cafe |
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