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RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

planetstardragon — Wed, 27 May 2009 13:41:27 GMT

Humor is no laughing matter!

laughter must be taken seriously.

nuff said.

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

surajit — Wed, 27 May 2009 12:39:45 GMT

That seems to me pretty horrid sense of humour.

However, I wouldn't know...

Since I don't have any.:hehe:

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Apparition — Tue, 26 May 2009 23:31:09 GMT

Oh!

I thought the three Stooges movies were gone!

This thread really has the same flavor! :D

For the forum flavor!..... If not....!:)

What is life without humor? :cool:

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

surajit — Tue, 26 May 2009 10:12:19 GMT

It's a relief! Thanks a million for making everybody safe Zack. I am sure this would not have happened without the intervention of you guys.

My apologies for any hard words.

Regards

Surajit

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Gorz — Tue, 26 May 2009 05:33:45 GMT

A clear and sensible move from Reallusion, commendable and a guide light to others!

A sound and good step with the EULA.

Very good!

Gorz

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

CloneBot Zack — Tue, 26 May 2009 05:26:47 GMT

Hey everyone,

Great news! Clause 4 has been completely removed from the Software EULA!! :D
Means, you can create any video and use it how you see fit, without restriction!

Here is a quote from the new Content EULA:

[i]2.Reallusion grants you a non-exclusive Royalty-Free license to display Content within your iClone and/or CrazyTalk movies. You may generate, sell and redistribute your movies created with iClone and/or CrazyTalk with full ownership and use-rights to the output media in Image or Video format within the output guidelines of this agreement. [/i]

Clause 2 has a funny word that might cause confusion, so let me go ahead and translate from legalese to Plain-English. Non-exclusive right means you can buy and then use that content however you like, but you cannot turn around and sell it again to someone else.

More info from Content EULA:
[i]
1.You are not authorized to sell, resell, sell as, duplicate, distribute, sub-license, publish, market, or re-present - for re-sale or as free objects, any REALLUSION CONTENT STORE '3D model', or any derivative thereof.
2. You are authorized to sell, resell, sell as, duplicate, distribute, sub-license, publish, market, or re-present - for re-sale or as free objects, any modified default content, accept content designated as official contributing artist content, or any derivative thereof. [/i]

Clause 1 and 2 are the Derivative clauses I was hinting at from before. Means, I cannot buy someone's content then sell that content as resource for others. In other words, I cannot buy a Character, extract the texture, change that texture, then re-sell that texture.
But you can modify the default content as you like and sell unless it is official contributing artwork (which you will find in CrazyTalk6 upon its release ;))

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Apparition — Mon, 18 May 2009 12:39:56 GMT

I got a very kind and gentle message from CloneBot Zack, so I would like to state I understood perfectly well the issues treated here.

I would recommend all Users and CCDs to stop worrying about the document contents discussed in here. CLoneBot Zack represents the clear thought of Reallusion, regarding all products. Once we read the clear explanations and exemplified arguments he just posted, we all shoud rest in trust of his statments.

I would just add, in response to the friendly message recieved, we entered into this thread in response to the cordial invitation received and written in the first post, and the cordial suggestion we would explain our doubts and questions, freely and constructively.

If we used some humorous "add ons" to our own comments, was just to invigorate the discussion and to make it feel like a friends gathering in peaceful chat!

Thanks CloneBot for your patience and you understandig about some of us not being so quick to grab what you clearly explained.

All for the success of iClone and al the R.L products!

Mike Aparicio

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

CloneBot Zack — Mon, 18 May 2009 04:41:12 GMT

Here I try to explain again and cover the issues.

[b]Tools[/b]
You may use our tools to develop iClone materials and use them freely in your projects or to sell that content. If you wish to sell directly on Reallusion's content store, you must agree to do so with a Royalty-Free clause. If you wish to sell on a3rd party site, then you must meet their requirements. If you wish to create your own store front online, please notify us, since you are selling materials that are using our proprietary format, we would like to know of your existence at least. If a customer approaches us and says, "Hey, is bob.com really a trusted site and I can buy iClone3 content there?" Would you rather Reallusion say, "yes, we know who they are, and you can trust them", or would you us rather say, "Bob.com? Who, what is that?! No, don't buy from them, we have no idea who they are! You could be downloading a virus disguised as a .VNS model"

When you use 3DS Max tools, do you own the rights to the models you created?
Yes, you do.
When you use Reallusion tools, do you own the rights to the models you created?
Yes, you do.

But we are a little different from 3ds max, because we have proprietary file formats, which means the content you make, can only be used by Reallusion products.

[b]EULA and Stock Videos[/b]
Stock videos means short scenes in a movie, like establishing shots, or filler videos. You can use iClone or Crazytalk to make stock videos for any of your projects. However, there will be small restrictions of how to distribute stock videos for commercial use. What that restriction is, has not yet been written, but the purpose is to defend CCD artwork and content from abuse, not Reallusion's output.

Royalty Free
Means end-users, including yourselves, buy your content and can freely use them in videos for whatever purpose.

However, they cannot create derivatives.

So I cannot buy someone's music, change the tempo and sell it again. I cannot buy G3 character, make a JPEG of it, and sell it as a CrazyTalk6 image. I cannot buy a G3 character, change his texture and sell it again, but I can sell the texture and say it is specifically designed for that G3 character.

I can buy your G3 character and make a video of him dancing the polka with dandelions in his hair, and sell it on the streets of NYC. And will not pay royalties to you the developer, nor even mention your name in the creation, but I cannot claim I made the model, but I can claim the video output as mine, and I may do as I please with it. And you can do the same with your video outputs.

Royalty Free gives end-user more freedom, thus more clarity of how to legally use your product, which increases demand for your content.
If a end-user buys content from Reallusion Content store, they know it is royalty free and will be free to publish their work however they like. But if in that video they use Beethoven's [i]Fur Elise[/i], they must have obtained rights to that song before they publish and since that is not on Reallusion's Content Store, we cannot give you rights to that song.

If your output anything from iClone or CrazyTalk, you need to own or have permission to use whatever materials you used. And if everything you used were default content from iClone or CrazyTalk or content you bought from Reallusion Content store, then you have nothing to fear, because you have the permissions.
Do you understand why the clauses say what they say now? If you have a particular question, then post it with the specific article quoted, and I will clarify it from Reallusion's view of the agreement.

I hope now I clarified the issues, and about why Royalty Free is a sound business move for Reallusion and CCD.
If you don't wish your content on the Reallusion Store Front to be royalty free, May 22 is your deadline to request your content to be removed.

As about Clause 4, I will say it again now, and I will no longer answer questions about it until our lawyers finish writing the EULA for CrazyTalk6. Clause 4 is irrelevant at the moment, all you need to know about the new EULA is that, NOW you may do whatever you wish with your output as long as you own the rights to everything in your finished output.

If you wish to discuss with me, send email to zack@developer.com, not a message to my forum account. If you have questions, post here on the forum so everyone can read them, Thanks. ;)

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Apparition — Sun, 17 May 2009 12:04:21 GMT

My Widget! Oh! Widgets don't work in posts!

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

planetstardragon — Sat, 16 May 2009 12:57:04 GMT

Thanks NS, yes, exactly, I believe artists should come first, and fortunately for us , we are all artists including reallusion.

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

NestleSnipes — Sat, 16 May 2009 12:43:16 GMT

planetstardragon I have to agree 100 percent no one should dictate artist's rights. Your creation in a tool for creating is your creation in a tool for creating. For everyone else, imagine creating music in garage band or pro tools and because you used those tools to make music now these companies are telling you how to sell your creation!

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

planetstardragon — Sat, 16 May 2009 04:55:14 GMT

I can respect that and appreciate the time you gave me in such a response.

I will say this in the artists favor, Reallusion needs to understand that we are still artists and make "compositions" and we are entitled to our rights to be artists in our career. This is still an art to each of us.

But i think it would be best for all parties, consumer, company, artist and developer,
that we recognize the storefront as an act of support. In return, I would love nothing more to see Reallusion support us as artists. And if we have products we wish to keep our rights with, we simply are allowed to sell them in a format that does not compete with reallusion and still supported by reallusion.

Reallusion has every right to make their store front content royalty free.
The artist should have every right to do whatever they want with what they purchased from the reallusion storefront.
The Composer who uses the tools should have every right to protect his composition.
but also, what goes on in reallusion, stays in reallusion. royalty free does not mean i want to see our work pimped out into other systems. its not there yet, but thats where Im at. Im all about rights, mine and yours.

Im not saying things should be free, I've been working on this conversion for over 2 weeks already, still not done and we still have to go over it all again for quality assurance, then spend the time thinking of useful packages ....the time im spending doing this Im not doing my main gig, and its costing me electricity, so my act of support is not buying a rolls at your expense, lets not get it twisted. one hand washes the other, but who is planning on buying the soap ?

there should be a mutual support thing going on. I agree with all parties actually, but we have me along with many other people who just want to make cool movies and need your help.

I really should be spending more time learning to make the cool movies , but instead im trying to give what i wish i had. its hard..im a noob..but i care and am determined.

I count my blessings for Truebones / Joe's support and he is very excited about helping everyone look great, he really an artist and i am so lucky to learn what I am learning with him.

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

surajit — Sat, 16 May 2009 04:33:04 GMT

Hi Planetstardragon,

Personally, I believe Zack and Pete are great people. They are also giving unexpected and personally overwhelming guidance to me for opening my upcoming web store of textures. They, as relationship people walk a tightrope between the policy makers and those who are influenced by policy. I fully sympathize with them and also respect them.

They provided hope to me at a time which is the toughest economic phase of my life. I thought I saw the light at the end of the tunnel, only to find RA lawyers conniving to send me once again into darkness.

However, this is a discussion forum, and there is no cause for Pete or Zack to go up to the lawyers and say, hey change this, unless some of us clearly type that out in the forum.

This is why this thread was started. RA didn't need to start this thread or enter into a discussion with any of us.

They could have just passed the EULAs and informed everybody next morning. They have the right to do that.

But, since the thread has been started, it has been done to invite all questions and opinions, and by expressing our opinions we are helping to do what RA wants.

That is why participating, and expressing your opinions becomes a moral responsibility. It is not to hurt or criticise anybody, or to reduce the role of RA in helping us all.

It is only to help make things better.

Our criticisms matter, only because RA thinks it important enough to open this thread of discussion.

If my comments hurt anybody or Reallusion, I offer my heartfelt apologies, and will remove any such comments made in ignorance.

But friend, I have been a lawyer, and have left that profession out of choice, and know the breed very closely. It is not that therer aren't honest lawyers, but it is very tough to remain so, at least in developing countries, and one has to keep their eyes and ears closed and tolerate the rape of justice everyday. Down here, the lawyer who can fool the law and deny justice is the professional achiever. Maybe my personal experiences are clouding my judgment. That is why I am asking every developer to express their own opinions.

Regards

Surajit

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Gorz — Sat, 16 May 2009 04:05:14 GMT

I want to see the new clause 4 in the redrafted EULA A.S.A.P

(So we get a concrete base for this discussion and not guesswork)

It feels like treading quick sand here!

Gorz

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

planetstardragon — Sat, 16 May 2009 03:28:49 GMT

my only concern is reallusions well being, and the artists well being, if the artists look good and are protected, reallusion looks good and is protected. And everyone can mutually benefit.

i know i don't have the popular vote, but no one realizes im looking out for everyone.

and i really don't care. I want this company to do well, end of discussion.

this is more legal tripe than support and art.

with that said, I think the store front should be an act of support that the artists that use iclone create tools to help other artist. the store front should be a show of support for our new artists, reallusion has been very fair with me and our discussions about opening shop.
The last thing I want to do is compete with their store front, the first thing i want to do is make their artists look great.

-yes i deleted the sentences because i'd rather make a point than vent-

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

surajit — Sat, 16 May 2009 02:57:49 GMT

Hi Mike, Greetings,

Send my respects to your wife, for her time and invaluable suggestion. Something that the new authoritarian rule in RA would never see eye to eye with. If you see the replies of our friends, the continuous efforts to delude and elude, and steering the thread carefully away from the main points, and trying to laugh away serious matters as of negligible consequence, the scene must be clear to you right now.

This is my logical solution to the problem: Delete clause 4 entirely from the end-user's EULA, and don't keep any unnecessary prohibitions in the EULA at all for it might affect the popularity and marketing of the software.

If the wish, as explained by Zack, is really to protect the rights of content developers, then each content pack contains it's own EULA and Read Me documents. Whoever wants such prohibitions on their content packs can safely lodge such prohibitions within the Read Me of the respective content pack without affecting the salability of the software as a whole, or the salability of the content of other developers who do not want such restrictions upon their content. This is the proper way out.

Further, in order not to misrepresent anything to the content purchasers, packs that contain prohibitions should be clearly marked as such and packs which do not contain such prohibitions shall be marked as such in the RA store. This way, everybody's interests are protected logically. Besides the comments of CloneBot and Pete, I would invite the comments of other developers on this suggestion..

The next part of my post is as much for asking the suggestions from other developers as it is for CloneBot and Pete, if they feel so inclined to respond, and do not decide to shoot me at Tianmen Square.

1. First let's deal with the topic of the end-users EULA. Nonsensical prohibitions and sanctions reflected in the end-user's EULA, cuts down the opportunities from every passenger on the Reallusion ship except the captains.

When I was talking of takeovers, I was not talking about RA trying to play Big Brother or Big Sister, but that the signs are of the takeover of RA by any other big company, of which this software will eventually become a plug-in.

If RA had plans of expansion of its own company, these prohibitions and sanctions designed to cut down sales and reducing the net worth of the company are unexplainable. In its place efforts to really popularise the software and market it positively would be on, not prohibitions on software usage by licensed end-users.

However, like Zack I'll say let's pretend, that a big company like AutoChair has struck a deal with promoters of Reallusion to take over RA. Then the deal would be

a) change your EULA's so that after we takeover we don't have to deal with renegade developers who can continue to supply the market with content without our control. And

b) do everything to reduce the net worth of the company so that we can acquire at a low actual price, and fool everybody. The future of the original promoters are secured because you become shareholders of a bigger company with whatever other sweets thrown in between. And the hell with the small fry. Also reducing the net worth of the company helps to buy off and pull together renegade shares at a low price before handing everything over to the other party.

c)do everything to control output rights until we come in and decide what is to be allowed and what not.

The present actions of Reallusion would be logical under the above scenerio. As it is, if such a scenerio doesn't exist the present attempts to change the EULA's under the pretext of "freedom from copyright" are illogical. Both end-users and developers were free enough as it was.

2. The dropping of an "apparently under construction" clause that could endanger the future of the entire developer community but is really concerned with end-users, has been able to successfully divert the attention of developers from the EULA for developers, as if that chapter is already closed. But no it is not.

There has been no concrete answers to Mike's pointing out of the clause that makes Reallusion the automatic owner of everything produced with developer tools, and there has been no change incorporated as far as our knowledge on this forum goes. The developer's EULA remains as it is with all it's castigation of free developers.

So the question of retroactivity comes in here too. When I registered my copy of iClone I became a registered member of the CCD program automatically. The company was putting out advertisemtns for developers to join and start developing and earning with Reallusion.

However, at that point of time, when I registered my software, accepted the representations of Reallusion upon good faith, and started to buy content and spend time and energy to prepare for entering the market, Reallusion did not warn me that there will be prohibitions by which all content produced with developer tools would automatically become Reallusion property, and will have to be mandatorily marketed through Reallusion.

My EULA with Reallusion comes into existence ab initio from the point of time I registered my software and signed up for the CCD program.

I specifically choose not to give my consent to new conditions that implicate that content produced by me with RA tools is RA property, and does so after I have spent months of time, given up my job, concentrated on developing a pipeline according to my experience, is on the verge of entering the market fullscale, and the company knows, that having invested, time, energy and money, it is pretty tough for CCD program members like me to start afresh in other avenues and bear the wastage.

I hate getting into controversies, but I also hate people trying to dictate my world unfairly, by representing one thing at one point of time and coming up with something else at another point of time. I'd rather remain a free pauper than an enslaved prince.

Regards

Surajit

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

planetstardragon — Sat, 16 May 2009 02:49:36 GMT

you can download the sound effects right from iclone make a mix and sell them again.

I kind of like that idea myself.

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

owenssj — Sat, 16 May 2009 02:36:43 GMT

"Same Thing" Movie Stars in the past had a Reasonable Bit"h.I Know this is Different(Not Really)It's all about Money.In All Aspects IClone should Respect their Contributers.(ICone CCD Members and Beyond)It Makes Money/Half Price Most all the time." Next Subject" Go to any Royalty free Music Website,(Download)and you can Post that Theme on ICone.Royalty Free.It looks like it's been Done already......Iv'e Been having alot of Fun with IClone,and it's just a Hobby Of Mine.Had to put my 2 Cents in here.But Yes I Dis-Agree...

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Apparition — Fri, 15 May 2009 21:47:18 GMT

Gee! I was SO right!

This thread is looking moment by moment, like a "scrooges comedy film"! :D

But the funny characters are certainly, the R.L. lawyers! :P

I would pay serious attention to Surajit comments because he is showing a clear understanding and experience on the topic covered here. :cool:

My wife wanted to help too, as a gesture of cooperation with the novice lawyer who wrote the "EULA scratch"... Can we call it like such? :)

So she told me: "tell this guys, according to CloneBot Zack last post above, they could write the scroogey paragraph very simply:

"Output products from iClone or CrazyTalk cannot contain other audio visual elements subject to copyright by other artists without their consent.

An exception to this prohibition are: output derived from all Content Products sold by Reallusion Content Store, as this products are considered "Royalty free" or the default elements and content provided as part of the R.L. software installation.

All images, videos, stock videos or whatever the programs output is, are included in this regulation. No other restrictions are applied to the mentioned output from the R.L. programs.

Wow! Isn't it so simple?

Like CloneBot is passing some money to Peter for his great help, I think R.L. lawyers should pass a big bundle to my wife Lisbeth, for having written the "scroogey" paragraph very simply an clear!

I would have to add: CloneBot Zacks definitionf of "Stock material is not adecuate.

Stock audio visual materials are basically products offered to be used as elements in a subsequent audio visual production. Simply means they are partially or totally finished elements, ready to be purchased and used either as they are, or modified by the end user, upon a user agreement with the stock provider.

Mike

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

CloneBot Zack — Fri, 15 May 2009 21:24:39 GMT

Hey everyone,

Sorry there appears to be some more confusion still about that Clause 4 in the New EULA.

Clause 4, and the New EULA for that matter, is still under construction.

We only released the working EULA so that you can see Clause 3 allows you to use iClone and CrazyTalk to create all types of media output, and that you can use the output in many ways.

I think there is some confusion about still about what we plan to prohibit with the New EULA. So let me give some examples, But this is not concrete, but at least you can see where we are going with this:

Let's pretend that a CCD created a pack of Characters. Then I buy that pack, paying for in the legal way. But then, I take his pack, render JPEGs of his characters, then sell those JPEGs as CrazyTalk image packs. That is a form of derivative we are trying to regulate.

Stock video is not a scene of another video. You can use iClone3 to create scenes to add into other videos. Stock video is something like this:

Let's pretend that another CCD created an awesome landscape with iClone Landscaper and Gardening pack. Sales that scene on the content store. I buy that 3D scene, buying in the legal way.
But then, I create renders of short film, maybe 3-5 seconds of being inside that 3D scene, maybe the camera is flying through, or slowly walking in the scene. I then sell this as stock video, and say, "Hey, why buy that expensive 3D scene created by that other CCD guy when you can buy my stock video for much cheaper, and it's less hassle!"

That is form of derivative we are trying to prohibit.

If you want to create a video using those characters and that 3d scenes, call it "CloneBot Zack in the 3D Scene of Doom". Render as an AVI, burn to a DVD and use that as your sale's pitch to Hollywood and make billions of dollars... go for it!
All I ask, is that you give me your autograph... and let me make a case study of your use of iClone, ;)

I think everyone knows that Reallusion goes out if its way for everyone to be creative and keeps things simple. That is why we are writing Royalty-Free clause, and why we are simplifying the New EULA for the CrazyTalk6 release. :)

We are not "Big Brother"... nor "Big Sister" for that matter...

So, Clause 4, please ignore, if you look at the document, you will see that Clause 3 is in bold, simply because we were highlighting that clause for your attention. Clause 4 on the other hand is not, because it is still under construction. It is merely a working document.

And the examples I just gave, are merely examples. I am not a lawyer, so we have to wait for them to finish writing Clause 4, before we can debate Clause 4... till then, is anyone here happy about Clause 3?!

Clause 3 means you can use iClone and CrazyTalk freely as you please to create movies, commercials, TV programs, scenes for other movies, images that can be used for comic books, training materials, widget designs... just about everything.

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

nigel — Fri, 15 May 2009 21:22:38 GMT

[quote][b]Apparition (5/15/2009)[/b][hr]You see guys?

I knew our Good friend CloneBot Zack would come up and make all of us happy again! This is actually another game! "The Forum War against The Lord of the Lawyers" :w00t:

And we win. Clever as always, lawyers put two paragraphs, contradictory in essence so in case of trouble they will come up and say: "Yea, that's what it is but look at this paragraph, here we have a window to escape" :cool:

Then comes CloneBot and bangs on the meeting table and says: "Let me fix this. I have to take care of our product, you legalese confounders...!"

Gorz says something of relevance. Piracy is attacking now iClone. Too bad! I wonder if it is a product of wrong policies or the simple trend of the underground markets.

We must be aware and report to R.L. any findings about illegal usage of either programs or content. We must together fight the plague that kills most good software when the lawyers start making it attractive to software thiefs!

Thanks CloneBot for coming up and telling us the EULA is not really the final EULA.

Also he confirms what I told the lawyers. The only valid EULA is the one you agreed upon accepting it at the moment of installation. ;)

Good! Let's relax again.... Until tomorrow! :D[/quote]

Hi Mike,

I would just like to mention the illegal usage bit, this has nothing to do with reallusion but a true example of software.

I bought Ultra 2 by serious magic (green screen app) approx 2 years ago, very soon Adobe took over, 3 weeks ago I bought a new Vista machine but would Adobe let me activate my bought software, NO.

I contacted Adobe with my worry and they said 5 days later Ulra 2 was not compatible with vista and closed my ticket, end of story.

But I did not give up, I played with the registry and configured it to bypass the activation, all working now as it was when I paid for it.

The moral of the story is, Play fair or somebody will walk over you. :hehe:

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Gorz — Fri, 15 May 2009 14:08:03 GMT

Surajit!

Agreed, I also find your point very valid and I believe that we should kick this puss ball until it breaks and something sensible comes out of it! I also find stuckon3d:s argument and attitude re the artists freedom 100% like my own opinion.

No matter how much EULA:s and lawyers they use, it is impossible to regulate 100.000 customers complete output, that is rubbish. I would say that you can't rely control anything, the discussion here in my view is to find the balance between Reallusions wish, the CCD:s freedom of creation with RA:s blessing and the end users freedom of usage of the end product!

All the best

Gorz

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

surajit — Fri, 15 May 2009 13:49:13 GMT

Gorz, my friend,

These points are being raised here because this is the the thread for developers, people like you and Mike, and BigBoss , and a lot of other extremely talented people who do work as much for the love of it, as they work to earn.

The demand for pre-developed content, and especially the willingness to pay for it increases if the end user can easily use the software for personal earning. If avenues of earning for the end user are selectively cut off and constrained, the end users will be buying less content for they would be earning less, if anything at all. And that affects all developers.

It can help a company as a prelude to a takeover. Sales go down. Net worth of the company goes down. Company is trasferred at a low cost. Company promoters win, and small fry associated with the company get shell-shocked.

I am not saying that is what is happening at Reallusion, but this kind of crazy prohibitions that unreasonably restrict the end user's earning potential, and thereby the software's and associated content's salability is quite difficult to fathom.

As far as personal use under previous EULA is considered, a casual hobbyist may be satisfied, but then again this is the forum thread for developers, people who are not by any means casual hobbyists, but people who are also out to earn through use of the software.

My respects

Surajit

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

stuckon3d — Fri, 15 May 2009 13:27:50 GMT

Hello reallusion,
can you please clarify what you consider "Single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection"

By single image or image collection do you mean : comic book art work?
by stock video do you mean : moving shapes backdrops?
by clip art do you mean : still render of santa with an alpha? for example?

I just dont understand why these restriction? how does this affect you? People that buys stock stuff is because they dont have the time and/or the talent to do them themselves.

can you please clarify?

thanks,

Stuckon3d

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Gorz — Fri, 15 May 2009 13:26:54 GMT

To simplify things I hope that this is the answer to any iClone 3 user right now

written by Clonebot Zack today!

EULAs are non-retroactive, which means if you buy CrazyTalk5, that EULA is your EULA until the end of time. This new EULA is still a working document, and will be effective with the release of CrazyTalk6 (Now I done it, tipped off a release of a product)!

In my eyes that should mean that if you bought your software before this EULA it is not affecting your use of the software, dependant or not of the now newly instated EULA. So I hope and I think that the ordinary user can feel calm in using his/hers software copy in the same way as before this discussion.

May the pixels be with you!

Gorz

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

surajit — Fri, 15 May 2009 13:04:00 GMT

I may not have an English major, but I did my 5-year degree law course from Department of Law, Calcutta University, one of (if not the oldest) universities in Asia. Incidentally, I did pass the paper on Interpretation of Deeds and Documents. I had a successful practising life for eight years then chose to leave the profession to follow my heart. I know what I see.

The rules of interpretation say while interpreting any clause, the plain meaning, and not contrived meanings, have precedence.

To make it easy to find the plain meaning and intent of the parties, it is common practice to break the clause into phrases for easier analysis. I am breaking the statement in clause 4 of the EULA below so that the plain meaning (the one that has precedence in courts) becomes visible.

4. iClone and/or CrazyTalk output,

may be used, altered, or incorporated according to

the guidelines described herein into any work (including broadcast, commercial,

industrial, educational, and personal) that is created by YOU

PROVIDED

that work is not then sold or distributed as

either a single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection.

Pete, Zack happened to mention that you are British. You can find some of my articles on British, and European IP law on this page http://www.lawcrossing.co.uk/article/lcarticlearchive.php?type=239

You'll find the following articles among others penned by me (against fees) there:

Principles of Damages for Patent Infringement

The Consequences of Unilin v. Berry for IP Rights Infringement in the UK

Hope you like them. I did not give you links to my articles on the IP laws of other countries for it would be irrelevant to you.

And by the way, clause 4 means exactly what it says. If anything that passes through iClone is part of your content, either whole or in part, then you cannot sell or distribute that through the modes mentioned in the clause. The only, and unviable, option remains to personally sell and distribute your work piecemeal.

Regards

Surajit

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Paumanok West — Fri, 15 May 2009 12:21:56 GMT

By the way, for what it's worth--perhaps not much--I agree with Gorz that RL has an interest in protecting its business by prohibiting what the creation of what I would call toxic media.

But as he pointed out, a product sold internationally is hard to regulate in the first place, and even here in the US, free speech laws might complicate the effort to regulate users.

But what's more problematic is the prospect of having a double standard for sex and violence. RL, you leaped aboard that oh-so slippery slope when you added a psychopath character and bloody body parts to your Backstage prop set.

In my opinion, the pornography of violence always trumps the pornography of pornography.

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Peter Edwards — Fri, 15 May 2009 12:18:30 GMT

[quote][b]CloneBot Zack (5/15/2009)[/b][hr]
Since everyone is giving Mr. Peter Edwards nice remarks, I thought I should jump in with my two cents! Pete has been a close friend and ally of both me and Reallusion. Throughout the years he has helped support us and keep the forum a place where people could ask their questions, get their answers and give & receive constructive criticism. I think Pete should run for President... but being he is British, I guess we just have to setter for Prime Minister...
Prime Minister Edwards, has a nice ring to it, no?!
[/quote]

Thanks Zack. :blush: Based on the way things are at the moment I probabably couldn't do a worse job than the current PM. Then again.....

Psst I'll give you cash I promised you later. :laugh:

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Peter Edwards — Fri, 15 May 2009 12:06:41 GMT

[quote][b]Apparition (5/15/2009)[/b][hr]

I was so astonished reading this! I have been training my students to become proficient in iCLone production. But not to play games. It was with the intention of providing them with the right knowledge to buy and use a tool good for making movies, videos, educational material and so forth, TO BE SOLD. ALL THIS IS FORBBIDEN in the new EULA.[/quote]

Hi Mike,

Hopefully Zack has explained everything clearly now but I would like to add that even if Clause 4 were to stay intact in the final revision of the EULA, it does not mean you can't sell your videos as maybe you seemed to think in the quote above. It clearly states that Clause 4 applies only to:

"Single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection"

That means that your personally created movies, videos can be still sold or shared so no one should feel their freedom in this area is being impeeded.

Don't you just love all this legal stuff. ;)

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Paumanok West — Fri, 15 May 2009 12:00:05 GMT

Sorry for coming late to this discussion, and I may not be well-informed, but I have a problem with the prohibition on the sale of intellectual property created with the applications to stock image and video venues.

1) I am not aware that Adobe puts an analogous prohibition on original video sweetened and edited with Premiere or After Effects, or original photographs altered with PhotoShop. You buy the software, you do your work, you make a living best you can.

2) iClone and CrazyTalk could be used to create totally de novo works that do not contain a single shred of purchased content. Let's say I create an animated GIF of a flying crow from original video footage, apply it as a material to a largely transparent box, and move that through space in iClone, thereby making a totally original work. I can't sell that to a stock house? I think the prohibition is unenforceable for this clear-cut reason. But there are vastly more cases which are not so clear-cut which come under the fair-use doctrine. If I alter Trey or Violet beyond recognition, tweak the mocap, add creative lighting and set design, I very quickly reach the point where the new work is the moral property of the creator, and the software (astoundingly smart though it may be!) is just a dumb tool, such as a paintbrush.

3) I understand RL's business model is selling 3D software, probably with an even greater emphasis on revenue from content packs. If that is true, then I really have a hard time understanding how the proliferation of 2D images, whether they are still or moving, represent unfair competition in the first place. Of these 3 points, this one is the one we really need to talk about. I am a huge proponent of artists' rights. If we could understand how RL is trying to legitimately protect its own artists (and engineers; and its partners), perhaps I could be persuaded to support you on this. Otherwise, I think it's nonsense, and would urge users to bone up on Fair Use principles.

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Gorz — Fri, 15 May 2009 11:43:58 GMT

In my mind this is a bit scilly, what would people say if PENTAX or CANON or any other manufacturer of i.e cameras would say:

- in our EULA we state that you can only photograph your grandma 3 times / month and never more than 10 good pictures during a year! We have exclusive right to every picture taken with our camera. This is applicable by Californian LAW unless it is about aunty Heather with the short Black dress ;)

A render engine like iClone is in my mind very much a VR camera allowing you to film and photograph your scenes in detail and then distribute, sell or in any other way expose your creative talent. In my mind this is very much the same thing...

I agree that a good taste clause of the intellectual property like not USING i.e. Trinity in a sexshow or what ever is valid, but still trying with a law from california controlling the entire world is a bit dumb. So I do think that a lawyer in China would probably laugh as much as the lawyers I asked here in SWEDEN about Californian law was applicable. The international copyright laws that states your owner ship and prohibition to spread the software is very much in effective here. But Californian law as such is not regarded much as anything that we care about. If I write a Swedish EULA re one of my softwares I don't think anybody in US would care much about that...

In my mind what we should strive for is a creative space within certain rules where Reallusion, the CCD program have a bit of a service function to live up to, this to let us all be able to create our dreams and our visions without a stupid lawyer standing there blithering about the law. Common sense is what we all finally work from, being illegal is the easiest thing in the world, proving that it is so, almost impossible. The best space in the entire existence is the virtual computer world where no one actually needs to know who did what!

Let us see a EULA that recognize creativity and ingenuity and freedom of thought, I for one think that creative artists like "Armstrong" here in the forum has huge amount to teach us mortals about beauty and freedom of creation with sometimes simple means, sometimes a bit more tricks and trial and error. It would be a disaster to restrict a wizard like that!

Render, be happy and keep dreaming about wonderful things to SHOW us, your audience! :cool:

Gorz

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

surajit — Fri, 15 May 2009 09:18:59 GMT

Thanks for the clarifications and assurances CloneBot.

But I still don't get one thing. (I'm dumb for sure)

It is people who create short clips and video footage for sale, that need software like iClone.

Big animation studios create their own software or use high end and pricey solutions like Massive etc.

If adding the product clip or short animation as part of display in a stock video or image library is prohibited, how are these countless end producers going to reach the market?

If the more than 100,000 users of iClone were all producing big video films, and personally marketing and distributing them, they would all be production houses.

I had an idea that iClone was the common man's movie machine. And it is hard for me to understand what is to be gained by prohibiting stocking of video footage and image clips without creating viable alternatives for the end user to reach the market with his/her goods.

Pardon my comments if any had crossed prohibitory limits, but having boarded the Reallusion ship and having decided to make my voyage on it, I do feel concerned at the sight of black clouds.

I fervently hope all my fears are meaningless and the popularity of iClone and content sale would continue to increase even though people will not be able to add their clips or footage to stocks, but will have to market them piecemeal by themselves.

Regards

Surajit

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Apparition — Fri, 15 May 2009 09:16:31 GMT

You see guys?

I knew our Good friend CloneBot Zack would come up and make all of us happy again! This is actually another game! "The Forum War against The Lord of the Lawyers" :w00t:

Then comes CloneBot and bangs on the meeting table and says: "Let me fix this. I have to take care of our product, you legalese confounders...!"

Gorz says something of relevance. Piracy is attacking now iClone. Too bad! I wonder if it is a product of wrong policies or the simple trend of the underground markets.

Thanks CloneBot for coming up and telling us the EULA is not really the final EULA.

Also he confirms what I told the lawyers. The only valid EULA is the one you agreed upon accepting it at the moment of installation. ;)

Good! Let's relax again.... Until tomorrow! :D

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

CloneBot Zack — Fri, 15 May 2009 08:03:41 GMT

Hey again,

It's good to see everyone participating in the discussion and feel so passionately for iClone and Reallusion.

Here are the topics:
1. EULA
2. Gorz questions

EULA

So when we look at Clause 3:
You may generate, sell and redistribute your movies created with iClone
and/or CrazyTalk with full ownership and use-rights to the output media in
Image or Video format within the output guidelines of this agreement.

That's cool! So that means I can use iClone3 or CrazyTalk to make movies, sell them, create funny videos and give them as birthday gifts! But then, I look at Clause 4

Clause 4 states:
iClone and/or CrazyTalk output may be used, altered, or incorporated according to
the guidelines described herein into any work (including broadcast, commercial,
industrial, educational, and personal) that is created by YOU provided that work is
not then sold or distributed as either a single image, part of clip-art library, or stock
video or image collection.

What?! Sounds contradictory, doesn't it!? And if you said, "Yes, it does, Mr. Clonebot" Then you deserve a pat on the back for being absolutely intelligent!

Let me clear it up!

EULAs are non-retroactive, which means if you buy CrazyTalk5, that EULA is your EULA until the end of time. This new EULA is still a working document, and will be effective with the release of CrazyTalk6 (Now I done it, tipped off a release of a product)!

A working document means we are still hammering out the words. Clause 3 is the new one and it is highlighted so you can see the new freedom you will have. Clause 4 is not highlighted cause it is not the final draft. There will be a prohibitive use pertaining to stock videos and stock images... but don't quote me on that yet...

So the morale of the story is, your old EULA applies to you, when you buy new products from Reallusion, there will be a new EULA specifically design to give you more freedom to distribute your output. Sorry for the confusion :)

Gorz Questions

He had a lot of good questions, so let's share them here:

[quote]Can I render let's say 50 ICON:s to a development and embed these into the code? The EULA states that I can not spread image collection:s, question is the embedded ICON:s to be regarded as a collection of images. I usually use formats like .jpg, .bmp, .gif and some times .ico format.[/quote]

Yes, you can! You may use images rendered from iClone to create those Icons.

[quote]Can I render a collection of instruction movies and embed these into the software to clarify and enhance clarity of the softwares ( my developed software:s ) usage?[/quote]

Yes, you can! In fact, if you want to generate more exposure for you software, post those videos to our Reallusion TV! ;)

[quote]If webshops like White Tiger, CoolClones and Clones2GO and others make commercial film clip like I did of two deers in a nature frame, after that I have some other pictures rendered from the same setup as thumbnail and product picture + maby one or two extra for information and service to the customer, I THE BREAK THE EULA AGREMENT!

How do the external web shops suppose to act to make PR within the EULA?????[/quote]

No need to worry about this, since this is not part of the iClone3 EULA. And Clause 4 will be removed or edited to specifically state the prohibition of generating stock videos and images.

[quote]Are you sure it is lawyers who wrote this ?[/quote]

Yes, I am sure. But I have to reassure everyone, we keep our shameless lawyers locked in cages. We only let them out for the following reasons:
1) Go for walks- or this place would be quite messy
2) Write Contracts and EULAs
3) And other lawyerly fun things

Here at Reallusion, we love creativity, and we foster it through the Developer Center and Creative Resource Center.
Lawyers don't steer the ship of Reallusion, our customers do...

Since everyone is giving Mr. Peter Edwards nice remarks, I thought I should jump in with my two cents! Pete has been a close friend and ally of both me and Reallusion. Throughout the years he has helped support us and keep the forum a place where people could ask their questions, get their answers and give & receive constructive criticism. I think Pete should run for President... but being he is British, I guess we just have to setter for Prime Minister...
Prime Minister Edwards, has a nice ring to it, no?!

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Gorz — Fri, 15 May 2009 01:39:10 GMT

You have actually also targeted this software to a new threat that was not very big before.

When you lock up something and start to be a dictator with complete control, that is a roar to attract every hacker, and cracker and anti protection code kid in exitance. Why do you think that every thing Microsoft does is attacked and must be protected within hours.

GOOD ANSWER, Hackers hate Microsoft and that has gone in generations now. Just look at the market. This will in the end also attract a market where you suddenly can't control anything.

Again look at what happened to microsoft and autodesc and macintosh and so, and so... all has lost their true base of power because hackers killed all their real protection and not to mention the virus specific attacks. When you want to details control anything on the net you also scream for freedom attacks on it!

I actually took the liberty to check around a bit and I can tell you that this has started, and it will get worse, much worse...

A worried, quite sad and a bit stunned

Gorz

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Apparition — Fri, 15 May 2009 01:11:40 GMT

Oh my God!

I was so tired of this thread I decided not to go and read the new EULA because I thought it would be as confusing and ambiguous as the first version.

After reading Surajit comment I said: "Maybe I have to read this"

And found the same kind of "legalese" mumbo-jumbo, but right there it was:

4. iClone and/or CrazyTalk output may be used, altered, or incorporated according to the guidelines described herein into any work (including broadcast, commercial, industrial, educational, and personal) that is created by YOU provided that work is not then sold or distributed as either a single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection.

Unless of course, tomorrow moderators will come up and say: "Not really... No! That is not what is said there. Users can really sell their production. It's just a matter of understanding better what is NOT said there"

This is unbelievable. I will have to rethink URGENTLY my teaching programs, and probably redirect my students back to a more classic production approach, because iCLone and CrazyTalk just became a dead end alley, for any remunerative activity.

Hey Peter, hey CloneBot Zack! Are you SURE the new EULA is supposed to say what it says?

Don't come up telling my I am "over concerned" or "too focused" in that particular paragraph!

Can you come and do a clear explanation and interpretation of this paragraph 4?

I need to know EXACTLY on what grounds are we, not as CCDs but as end users with educational projects already on their way.

I have to recall to your legal department they seem to ignore the principle of Non retroactivity of the law.

All buyers who purchased the mentioned programs under certain EULA are covered by such and not by any new or amended version of it. Only new buyers would be affected, and if they read paragraph 4 certainly will not buy!

SERIOUS MISTAKE, my dear friends. As a friend, as a man of experience in the field, since 1973, I can tell you this is the greatest mistake ever made in RL history.

As CCDs we are seriously affected too. Who is going to spend money in additional content if he cannot get a return from it?

Mike

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

surajit — Fri, 15 May 2009 00:40:15 GMT

I dislike very much criticising anybody or anything publicly, but I cannot any more sit still.

Peter and Zack,

Reallusion might have a good legal team, with high class legal knowledge and abilities, but it seems to me they are without any business sense.

If we tie our future plans or even parts of it with the future of RA, then the prospects of lawyers forcing iClone to commit commercial suicide is something that needs to be addressed.

At a time, when newer and better softwares are coming up everyday, and every company is trying to increase their reach in every way possible, the RA lawyers seem to be on a spree trying to confine, strangle, and throttle most creative output possibilities of a tool solely and primarily meant for creative output. This is very self-conflicting.

Until now, the efforts had been to make all developers who use RA tools fall in line and align with company sales strategies. That is understandable, though its desirablity would vary from developer to developer. However, it is understandable, because it doesn't affect the commercial popularity of the software to the end user, the consumer who is king. And it ensures rather than endanger the survival of developers tied up with RA. (Though I believe any dreams,like I had, to become the world's richest man by developing iClone content, has been severely hampered).:D

With the new changes in the EULA of the end user, the lawyers are disregarding the fact that it is the consumer who is king, and trying to dethrone him/her. This spells commercial suicide. The past EULA was far more logical, though I wouldn't waste time going over it clause by clause.

What in effect, the EULA is saying is you can create, but if you use RA software, you cannot enjoy the fruits of your own creation. It is a tacit signal to consumers to look for fairer pastures ( I am surprised that they also did not give the list of current free software which render animation as fast as iClone and with much higher quality output from models and scenes having millions of polygons. I know the list but would not mention in this post for I am not RA's lawyer and wouldn't want to scuttle the prospects of this brilliant software with so many possiblities that are now being lost).

The restriction upon selling video footage in video stocks, of images in clips, now spells a death blow to iClone end-usage. They could have asked that in such productions it always be acknowledged that iClone has been used in part or whole of the production. That would have increased the popularity, visibility, and reach of iClone without scuttling creativity and also maintaining and enhancing the interests of Reallusion. But no, your lawyers (Are they in the pay of other competitor companies, I wonder?) are out for the blood of iClone and iClone consumers, and all they want is to reduce the use and visibility of iClone.

By finally reducing the entire viability of using iClone for content production by the end user, RA's lawyers have successfully turned a professional software to a plaything of casual hobbyists, and turned a "movie machine" to one that produces movies only for home and personal enjoyment. In a highly competitive field where other software hold out the prospects of turning a hobby into a living, RA's lawyers are carefully closing that market to iClone. Hope sells better and fetches a higher price than actual things (ask the politicians), but the hope of doing something with iClone is now being stamped out methodically.

This chapter in iClone history (we do not want iClone itself to become history) would go down as THE GREAT CASTRATION OF CREATIVES BY LUNATICS.:D

I request the administration of Reallusion to compare the EULAs of Poser, Daz, Vue, and other similar software which have a highly successful market by yourselves and not trust everything to the lawyers. They do not possess business sense and do not see the world from your eyes.

Also check the history of every software company which tied up with Autodesk and ended up in being bought out. See what changes they made to their EULAs before they began to suffer such reduction in sales that they had to allow the takeover bids by Autodesk.:P

Regards

Surajit

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Gorz — Thu, 14 May 2009 15:59:17 GMT

I am a computer developer in all areas and one particular area where I want to use iClone is to be able to create ICON:s. It can be as simple as a SAVE or a LOAD ICON or maby support ICON:s for symbolic or graphically devised software ( assembler ) creating systems. The ICON:s should be embedded in the program core, but as usual any embedded graphics can easily be extracted.

Question:

Can I render let's say 50 ICON:s to a development and embed these into the code? The EULA states that I can not spread image collection:s, question is the embedded ICON:s to be regarded as a collection of images. I usually use formats like .jpg, .bmp, .gif and some times .ico format.

Question:

Can I render a collection of instruction movies and embed these into the software to clarify and enhance clarity of the softwares ( my developed software:s ) usage?

Question:

If webshops like White Tiger, CoolClones and Clones2GO and others make commercial film clip like I did of two deers in a nature frame, after that I have some other pictures rendered from the same setup as thumbnail and product picture + maby one or two extra for information and service to the customer, I THE BREAK THE EULA AGREMENT!

How do the external web shops suppose to act to make PR within the EULA?????

There is NEVER a question of using iClone or CrazyTalk or derivates of these, always the rendered out from mainly iClone but perhaps also CrazyTalk.

Gorz

P.S. Are you sure it is lawyers who wrote this ? D.S.

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Peter Edwards — Thu, 14 May 2009 15:34:13 GMT

Just to let you know, the EULA has now been updated also.

You can take a look at the new EULA by clicking Here:

Thanks for all the kind words everyone. Feel free to post any questions you may have. :)

RE: New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide

Apparition — Thu, 14 May 2009 10:24:22 GMT

Me too!

Of course we have to agree the post was created to hear all possible comments to the new rules.

Now I have a clear understanding of the somewhat strange redaction used in the new rule statement. I was waiting for this opportunity.

I am happy the works by BigBoss and associates will be now at the RL Store and of course about the welcoming response from Clones2Go and CCC to generously accept my products at their great shelves!

I think any possibility of rivalry or misunderstood competition is dissolved by this measures.

Thanks Pete for you help understanding this all!.