Reallusion Forum / iClone / Wishful Features – Craft your dream tool / iClone2 Forum / Weak Tutorials / Latest Posts

RE: Weak Tutorials

Lionheart — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:29:26 GMT

I agree that the tutorials are a bit weak when it comes to specifics, but I guess the versatility of the program would make it impossible to cover everything in detail. I use the tutorials to see generally how to do stuff and then use trial and error to do the specifics - and as we all know - bug the life out of everybody on this forum to tap into their expertise.

Half of the fun of I-Clone, for me, is working out ways to overcome the "How to..." and seeing how skill and confidence improve over time. And also, download the ready made free projects from the I-Clone site and from such other sites as Freedom Forum and Cool Clones, which can then be disected to see exactly how they have built their scenes and how amendments affect them. I have found this way to learn I-Clone a lot easier than trying to follow the manual and tutorials because I could see step by step how the changes I made looked on screen against a ready made background of characters, props etc.

Hope this have given you some ideas of other places to look to inmprove your I-Clone skills.

Rich.

RE: Weak Tutorials

rehdogg — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 05:41:31 GMT

I don't think it's as difficult as poser which i own, but the tutorials are really crappy. Many things are left out. For example, they talk about linking characters to objects or characters but don't tell you how to make 2 characters communicate or interact with each other in 1 scene. They don't tell you how to make them do basic motions, they don't tell you how to make horses gallop. If I am going to invest more into packs i need a basic concept on how 2.5 studio works. I was not smart enough to do the trial version first. I bought it and the tech support help desk is not that helpful thus far. They have many packs but most of which I'm not interested in. I want to create films that's like 007,Bourne identity, Friday 13th, hostel, Freddy grugger, mortal kombat, Bruce lee,etc. Why not have martial arts,horror,spy packs?

RE: Weak Tutorials

stinkyu111 — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 21:01:07 GMT

[quote][b]bamdelco (3/1/2008)[/b][hr]Cool, real cool! Great job, Stinky! Good writing, too. You guys have me convinced. I gotta get iClone. But I am still going to wait for the new version for reasons already stated above.[/quote]

thanks bamdelco...i'm waiting for V3.0 too, i just can't stand the waiting :)

Steve

RE: Weak Tutorials

bamdelco — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:56:13 GMT

After looking at a variety of the iClone and CrazyTalk tutorials, I still have the same opinion. The tutorials are a weak link in the Reallusion marketing mix. What tutorials you have are good, but they are not a complete showing of all that these programs can do.

I just bought the CrazyTalk 5 SFX V2 pack. What was left out of the advertizing is the fact that very few of the cool effects that are in the example videos, are actually a part of the package. Apparently, one is required to create their own stuff like microphones and newscaster title screens, in a separate graphics package. Well, this is not too difficult to do but a bit of a let down from enthusiastically buying the package and then (surprise!) finding that the needed graphics and the demonstrated graphics aren't in it. And this wasn't mentioned in the sales copy, but just left as a poor surprise.

Although I still intend to buy the new version of iClone when it comes out, I am of the same opinion of Reallusion products as I had when I tested the iClone 2.5. And that is, Reallusion has some great products but doesn't bother to do the necessry steps in creating proper educational and training materials for their customers and potential customers.

Again, I recommend the Lynda.com people to help you with this. Those people are experts at tutorials. I've learned some of the most complicated programs with ease from studying their tutorials. I mention them for this reason, but also because I am looking forward to using iClone 3 but fear the learning curve resulting from your incomplete tutorial lineup. Also, Reallusion would have instant access to Lynda.com's millions of customer data base to promote your product.

Best Wishes.

RE: Weak Tutorials

bamdelco — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:18:23 GMT

Cool, real cool! Great job, Stinky! Good writing, too. You guys have me convinced. I gotta get iClone. But I am still going to wait for the new version for reasons already stated above.

RE: Weak Tutorials

bamdelco — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:07:41 GMT

[quote][b]bran (3/1/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bamdelco (2/29/2008)[/b][hr]

Very impressive. How long did it take you to animate your sex with aliens video from start to finish?

I admit that Poser is tough to learn alone. But the Lynda.com tutorials made it a snap. But I am not satisfied with Poser. It just doesn't do the job. It's asset library takes forever to find anything and the characters do weird things at odd moments. Plus the render times are too long.

Anyway, I will wait for the next version of iClone with anticipation.[/quote]

Well, bearing in mind there was a learning curve and a lot of the work was done in Premiere editing the total time was about 3 weeks for #1 The next ones were quicker #2 took 2 weeks and all subsequent episodes - yes, there are more, upto #8 - took me about a week. Bear in mind this included writing the dialogue, recording it, special effects etc so the time spent in iClone was half those times[/quote]

Really, really impressive. I will still wait for the next version to come out. Meanwhile, I have other projects that need to be cleared up. That's my big excuse -- too much work and too little time. But if you can get such great results in so short of time, I guess I will have to give it a try, myself. Even if my work isn't as good as yours, at least it looks like a lot of fun. But right now, I don't have time for fun --- work, work, work. Later!

RE: Weak Tutorials

stinkyu111 — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 09:36:27 GMT

I'm with bran on this one ...i like quick results and iclone has it for me

i tried other 3d software and even 2d ones

i get to focus on the story in iclone, other programs you get bogged down with many problems ( like mesh and rigging it )

my short was write in 1 day ( rewrite in another day ) voice overs in 3 hours, painted the outfits and set up the room in 2 days, animated ( no preset motions ) in 2 weeks.

I had the story in mind, written and storyboarded before i even bought iclone, iclone jumped in and finished the job. i bought it on Dec 12 ...got through as many tut's as i could stand and finished it on Jan 23, i edited with magix edit pro 12 ..in 1 day. the edit was fast because i did every line of dialogue as it's own project and render out as it's own clip ...the editing was just a matter of cutting off extra's or including the whole clip. magix was just drag and drop the parts, i used their (magix has a small clips of music) music and hit the export button ....done ..i went back and reedit it after i noticed some scenes ( or chip ) went to long.

i am right now trying to finish another script in time for a self imposed deadline of May for a longer project, a video comic strip series, action, comedy. i'll see how it goes.

Good luck on you finding the tool that works for you

Steve

RE: Weak Tutorials

bran — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 05:04:33 GMT

[quote][b]bamdelco (2/29/2008)[/b][hr]

Very impressive. How long did it take you to animate your sex with aliens video from start to finish?

Anyway, I will wait for the next version of iClone with anticipation.[/quote]

RE: Weak Tutorials

bamdelco — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:52:36 GMT

[quote][b]bran (2/28/2008)[/b][hr]I produced decent animations within a very short time. getting to grips with the timeline was the hardest but the tutorials helped. I tried daz and poser and if you are talking about learning curves - they were near vertical for me.

In my view iClone is the easiest to learn and use and if I didn't get results quickly I would have given up because I don't have the most patience. This was my first attempt:

my first film with iClone

and althought it's not perfect it does what I want because I'm more interested in storytelling/filmaking than fancy graphics.[/quote]

Very impressive. How long did it take you to animate your sex with aliens video from start to finish?

Anyway, I will wait for the next version of iClone with anticipation.

RE: Weak Tutorials

aknzrdude — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:03:50 GMT

well said - there are certainly flaws and in retrospect, i concede the point about mass market appeal - for that to happen, it needs to have more standardized user interface - at the very least, it needs an undo button -

[quote][b]bamdelco (2/28/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]aknzrdude (2/26/2008)[/b][hr]So, if this is true, can you not see that there may be other areas of weakness in the presentation of these programs?[/quote]

RE: Weak Tutorials

bran — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:10:33 GMT

I produced decent animations within a very short time. getting to grips with the timeline was the hardest but the tutorials helped. I tried daz and poser and if you are talking about learning curves - they were near vertical for me.

In my view iClone is the easiest to learn and use and if I didn't get results quickly I would have given up because I don't have the most patience. This was my first attempt:

my first film with iClone

and althought it's not perfect it does what I want because I'm more interested in storytelling/filmaking than fancy graphics.

RE: Weak Tutorials

bamdelco — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:38:42 GMT

[quote][b]aknzrdude (2/26/2008)[/b][hr]i will voice a contrarian view here - iclone is one of most intuitive/easiest software i've used - was able to get up and going without the manual or tutorials - i've used other software where i got lost in tutorials and manuals which others find easy to use. so the point being everyone as a different learning curve and the user interface may be clear to some and murky to others

from my perspective iclone is easy enough to get the basics, the more you play with it, the more little tricks you discover - just like any other software - however in comparison to poser, truespace, carrara, bryce, vue etc.. it took me the fastest to get up to speed in iclone[/quote]

I deleted the trial version from my hard drive, yesterday. I went through the Acrobat manual and it didn't provide the info I needed to work the program. I think it is on about the same difficulty level as Poser with its mysterious icons that you have to stumble around with in order to know what they do. Well, stumbling around can be fun but if you are on a tight schedual, it's too much time lost and work gained.

I agree that everybody has a different learning curve. Everybody is different. But since these software titles are made for a mass audience, there are enough similarities that everyone should be able to get a handle on them in one way or another. And from reading the little forums such as at machinima.com, iClone is not taking off like the rocket that it is but it is slugging along like a snail. That's too bad, it looks like an incredible program.

I doubt if Reallusion corp can survive if it has to depend upon software wizards such as yourself (who are rare) buying just a few copies of iClone when sales in the tens of millions of units is always better. iClone offers the ability for average fellows like me to realize their animation ambitions without needing the power of a hundred computers and scores of artists and animators. As such, it looks like the ideal tool.

From what I have seen, iClone is an incredibly fantastic program. And I am really quite excited about its possibilities, even though I won't be using the present version in my work, maybe next version.

Even though I agree with some of your statements, I still have the same opinion based on my experience with the program. The problem may be that the people at Reallusion are too close to the program and don't have the perspective necessary to see its flaws. One of the examples is the tutorials for the crazy talk program. In several of the tutorials, the audio was so clipped and the hard echo from what sounded like a recording done in a closet was so sharp, that it gave a sort of amateurish flavor to the productions ... even though the tutorials, themselves, we quite good. With your experience, aknzrdude, I am sure that you would agree. So, if this is true, can you not see that there may be other areas of weakness in the presentation of these programs?

My advice to Reallusion is to give a call to the people at Lynda.com and get some help in producing educationally exacting tutorial programs. They have a lot of experience in tutorial production. My apologies to the people who made the present tutorials, but it seems to me that you are too close to the program. And by knowing it so well, you assume that the little details that you take for granted are unimportant to the stupid fools like me who have the money to buy it but not the time to learn it.

So, my opinion is the same, really. iClone is an incredible program, but unless you can teach the average person how to use it, then it will suffer from a low user base and lost sales.

RE: Weak Tutorials

aknzrdude — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 21:03:21 GMT

i will voice a contrarian view here - iclone is one of most intuitive/easiest software i've used - was able to get up and going without the manual or tutorials - i've used other software where i got lost in tutorials and manuals which others find easy to use. so the point being everyone as a different learning curve and the user interface may be clear to some and murky to others

from my perspective iclone is easy enough to get the basics, the more you play with it, the more little tricks you discover - just like any other software - however in comparison to poser, truespace, carrara, bryce, vue etc.. it took me the fastest to get up to speed in iclone

RE: Weak Tutorials

Peter Edwards — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:02:38 GMT

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on iClone and the tutorials. It's always good to hear users views, good or bad. Reading your post it seems maybe you are expecting to learn more than is possible in the short time you have with the trial version, especially if you have watched a lot of the tutorials one after the other.

I would think that even without any tutorials iClone is pretty easy to get into the basics and it is a fairly simple process to add a character, scene, a few props and then apply a motion file and export your 1st movie.

From there I would advise working with the more advanced areas at a slower pace using one tutorial at a time and working through it slowly until things become clear. I know the urge is to try and see how everything works straight away but with software that has so much depth of features it is impossible to take it all in at once for anyone.

If you have looked at some of the many videos created by existing iClone users here and on YouTube etc, I think you will see that with practice and time some incredible work can be achieved. It just takes a little more time to absorb it all. I don't think anyone can learn to master everything iClone has to offer in the 15 days of the trial period but it should be enough to know whether the software is for you or not.

Thanks again for taking the time to express your feelings so far. :)

Weak Tutorials

bamdelco — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:17:41 GMT

After using CrazyTalk with a lot of amazed enthusiasm, I was planning on buying the iClone 2.5 just from the website hype alone. But, stingy fellow that I am, I figured that maybe trying the free trial version first, would be the better choice rather than going nuts over great advertizing copy and screen layout.

Okay, you folks at Reallusion have an incredible product but it is like a well-muscled weight lifter with a weak back. It has the power and the output, but who can use it?

I was tipped off on the Machinima.com forum by an iClone user who said that it has a steep learning curve and is not as easy to use as people may think. Okay, I have learned a lot of the top products available in graphics arts and animation with steep learning curves, so what could be so tough about this one?

So, I watch the Tutorial videos on YouTube and from a few other locations as well as the so-called "tutorials" that are offered on the Reallusion site. Nope, you have a weak back. Your tutorials are spotty, showcasing some things but leaving out the basics. You aren't taking care of the newbies who want to use the product and us middle-aged newbies don't get any breaks either

Sorry to be a whiner, but I'd like to learn the program without all of the fumbling around that is necessary to do so. I have a lot of other projects that I am presently working on that take presidence over stumbling around trying to figure out this animation engine. Your tutorials are not designed to teach a beginner, let alone someone who knows a bit about the program. You really need to start from the ground up on your tutorial lessons and try to actually teach how to use iClone rather than just showcasing what it can do in the so-called "tutorials. Oh yeah, I went to the ICLONE TUTORIALS site but was warned off with the sign that it wasn't for beginners and you have to already know how to use iClone before you can benefit from what they offer.

So, I go back to square one and I downloaded the Manual. I will try learning it in two dimensions. But if I don't learn it from there in the 15 days of the free trial offer, then I guess I won't buy the product. And oh yeah, I downloaded the trial extras bundle but the program still shoots a nag screen into my face to download the bundle everytime I click an asset to try out.

Anyway, I have some projects that I think iClone can accomplish, but I won't be buying it for now it looks like. Maybe next version.