New CCD Contract, Royalty Free and Commercialization Guide


https://forum.reallusion.com/Topic19488.aspx
Print Topic | Close Window

By CloneBot Zack - 15 Years Ago
So we have a lot of things to discuss...

1) CCD Contract
2) Royalty Free
3) Commercialization Guide

I hope that this is where we can ask, discuss, complain about everything dealing with these topics. If you have questions, concerns or kudos, then place them here so that everyone of us can benefit and understand clearly- together.

CCD Contract

Let's start with the new CCD Contract Agreement.
You can view the entire document here:
http://file.reallusion.com/ccd/Reallusion_CCD_Agreement.pdf

The contract is similar to the original except in a few areas, which I will briefly discuss in this forum, but of course if you have any questions, post them here so that everyone can benefit from this discussion.

The new CCD Contract will be effective on May 22, 2009. All content on the content store will become royalty free. If you do not want your content to be made royalty free, you must contact Reallusion by May 22, 2009 to request your content to be removed from all Reallusion store fronts.
To have your content removed:
developer@reallusion.com

Royalty Free

Here is a short description of what royalty free is:

"More than quality and selection, royalty-free means once you buy content from Reallusion, you have the right to display that content within any number of commercial or personal projects and pay nothing more.  Simplify your creative world with royalty-free content and let your mind manage your creativity, not your usage rights.  Reallusion royalty-free 3D, the one stop digital content shop.

Pay once, Use Foreve
Royalty- free content never has a cap on use and will never expire

Store & Access Content online
View your content inventory online or download any prior purchase

Got a paying gig?
Reallusion's Royalty-free 3D content can be used in your commercial projects

For complete details see the newly revised EULA

Note: All content is licensed to one machine per account.  If you should require to share with other computers, then you will need to purchase a multi-seat license."

Royalty free is intended to help promotions of the content, both Reallusion and CCD made. Any questions or concerns, here is the place to post.

Again, I have to place this message:
If you do not want your content to be made royalty free, you must contact Reallusion by May 22, 2009 to request your content to be removed from all Reallusion store fronts.
To have your content removed:
developer@reallusion.com

Commercialization Guide

This guide is designed to help all CCD to better create promotional marketing materials for their content. "People DO judge books by their covers!!"
So, thumbnail images, pack images, promotional images, any and all marketing materials... the bar has been raised. But look at this as an opportunity to improve your work in the industry. We do not want you to fail, or be left behind, so we created this guide, complete with expert advice, templates and guidelines to help you create better marketing.

Plus, there is a section that outlines all requirements, as well as examples of what are good images and what needs improvement, so you will know exactly what we need and hope for from you! You never have to wonder, is my image good enough? is my image the right size... you have all the answers right there! Hehe

Here is Commercial Guide:
http://developer.reallusion.com/commercialguide.aspx

Plus, you have this forum string to voice your concerns or questions. Reallusion will be right here, to listen and answer all of your questions!

Thanks, and let the questions roll! Cool

 

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
All C4G3 Apparition products meet this criteria!

Once you buy C4G3 -Apparition products, you can use it all in your commercial production!  Just remember:  One kit per computer!   It takes time and effort to make this content.   It is good you can use it for your business projects.    It is good, we developers get fairly compensated by the effort!

This iClone world is.... Beautiful!

Great move CloneBot Zack!

Mike

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
This is our pledge:

White Tiger agrees with Reallusion but, if you own two computers and want our content in both, technically the same owner, you have our blessing!

We also have a for ever free upgrade to all content against proof of purchase!

Apart from that we bind our commitment to what Reallusion written here!

Gorz / White Tiger

By Bigboss - 15 Years Ago
Good move on the Reallusion Front.

However, I would like to suggest a small step for Reallusion that could yield great results...

Point 1)

We, Content Developers need an OEM agreement for using Reallusion Textures on our Products. The spirit of the agreement would be for official CCD to be able to pass the Texture license with our generated content.

The OEM would be limited to the use of Reallusion "Raw Materials" to add value to OEM content targeting the Content Developer Market as such. Currently, I only see Textures as part of the idea but there may be other raw materials that will eventually pop up.

My Guess: Reallusion will sell more texture Packs this way.

Point 2)

Quality is of the outmost importance for the image of your Product. I strongly support the idea of raising the Bar for the promo material and also for the Products that you post on the CCD. With the quantity of content ever growing, web shelf shall be at premium but I assume you do this already.

Point 3)

There should be a vehicle by which Third Party Online Store such as CoolCreators, ClonesToGo and White Tiger (and possibly others I do not know of?) can request some shelf position on the Reallusion CCD Content section of the Reallusion Online Store. This of course could be subject to certain conditions making it a win-win situation for both Reallusion and the Content Providers. Generally speaking, Reallusion's official position and strategy towards third party online store probably needs to be further clarified? For instance, can we post the same product on both sites with a different pricing policy? Could we repackage a bunch of existing single products (e.g. Skintight) into a larger Reallusion Content Pack to grab additional markets through the exposure on the Reallusion site?

Your suggestions/clarifications are well appreciated.

Cheers.

By karenwood - 15 Years Ago
It sounds everyone has until May 22 to comply.

Maybe a lot of nonsense will stop now

cheers!

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
[quote]BigBoss40 (5/8/2009)

Point 3)

There should be a vehicle by which Third Party Online Store such as CoolCreators, ClonesToGo and White Tiger (and possibly others I do not know of?) can request some shelf position on the Reallusion CCD Content section of the Reallusion Online Store. This of course could be subject to certain conditions making it a win-win situation for both Reallusion and the Content Providers. Generally speaking, Reallusion's official position and strategy towards third party online store probably needs to be further clarified? For instance, can we post the same product on both sites with a different pricing policy? Could we repackage a bunch of existing single products (e.g. Skintight) into a larger Reallusion Content Pack to grab additional markets through the exposure on the Reallusion site?

quote]

Regarding this paragraph I would like to express my point of view!

Certainly Reallusion is free to create relations and extend its shelf to other WEB fronts.   But it has to be understood, the move clearly reflects, R.L. has not been gaining any revenues from third party products, sold at other stores, without an agreement on participation and price leverage.    What good would be in allowing a product sold at the RL ContentStore to be sold at a lower price at another one?     It simply would create the customer idea of RL overcharging products!    Quality perception would also be placed in jeopardy, if price differences are allowed.

It would simply redirect ALL sales to those "cheaper" storefronts bringing back the undesired situation, mainly for other CCDs without secondary outlets.

It is logical to assume: in those cases where RL establishes a shelf extension to other stores, those stores should then offer ALL products promoted at the main ContentStore and not only their own, in house products!   Not doing so, would mean unfair competition for those developers not having another outlet to sell.   Hence, ALL products developed with RL tools should pass the R.L. quality test and certification requirements BEFORE getting to any authorized shelf!

I think the new R.L. policies are clear in intention, aim and meaning!

Mike

By Alley - 15 Years Ago
It sounds everyone has until May 22 to comply.
Maybe a lot of nonsense will stop now
In reading the three points made in the first post of this thread....I'm not sure what this comment means or how it is relevant.

My packs have always been for commercial use.  I agree that the images need to be top quality and the commercialization guide is very helpful.  Very good suggestions.

With regard to packs being offered in Reallusion store as well as 3rd party stores, I don't believe there are any guidelines that I know of nor any restrictions currently as to price points set lower in 3rd party stores.  Reallusion would have to make this restriction if they so desire.

Lastly, in looking over the commercialization guide, is there a place where all the high quality "cloth images" - the ones used to show which base cloth figure is used - along with that G2 or G3 logo shown on the examples or any other symbols that could be downloaded.  Perhaps this exists, but I don't know where it is.Unsure

By karenwood - 15 Years Ago
Tudor: What good would be in allowing a product sold at the RL ContentStore to be sold at a lower price at another one?     It simply would create the customer idea of RL overcharging products!    Quality perception would also be placed in jeopardy, if price differences are allowed.

this is the nonsense I was referring to.

there are other nonsense issues, but are not prevalent to this thread, and has nothing to do with your beautiful creations, Alley (smile)

By Casina___ - 15 Years Ago
Certainly Reallusion is free to create relations and extend its shelf to other WEB fronts.   But it has to be understood, the move clearly reflects, R.L. has not been gaining any revenues from third party products, sold at other stores, without an agreement on participation and price leverage.    What good would be in allowing a product sold at the RL ContentStore to be sold at a lower price at another one?     It simply would create the customer idea of RL overcharging products!    Quality perception would also be placed in jeopardy, if price differences are allowed.

I always wondered about that...why would you go to RL store and buy the very same product when you could purchase it someplace else for less!

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
oh and on quality, im going to try to sell my product back to you, so I need quality stuff you find appealing that makes you want to watch my youtube videos !! lol Smile

an idea for developers that caught me from when I first discovered iclone.

I was thinking that it would be so cool if there were nike, adidas, etc , sports sets , like sweat suits , swim wear etc ..... i think it would be great for both developers and company's to endorse each others work. in the end it helps iclone and the rest of the community as well.
I also would think that companies like those would appreciate the extra advertising as well.
besides all that, i'd have the latest real life fashions on my puppets. My puppets have a show to do and I'd like to dress them in Calvin Klein please lol.

just a thought.
By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
I would like to contribute more, and in a constructive fashion!

I don't think the third party stores, selling iClone components, have done ANYTHING irregular so far.   It is just Reallusions logical new policy to better regulate the quality and price on any items claiming to be compatible and suitable to be used with iClone.

Reallusion certification is understandable and desirable.   Stating and ruling that ALL products developed by means of their tools, should be certified and submitted to Reallusion store on the first place, is a clear right for R.L., as permanent owners of the tools involved.

Reallusion is entitled to derive benefits from their tools usage!    But I also think, R.L. should take into consideration the efforts taken by other online stores, to create attractive sites and their own efforts into producing content, by means of RL tool usage.

This means to me, there should be a process to allow this stores to become shelf extensions of the main store.  there should be flexibility to accept submissions by such developers, and include them in the common BIG R.L shelf!

Of course all RL shelf extension stores should also agree on selling other developers items and most important, to accept a uniform pricing policy.   Competition between stores should be by providing Customers with the best backup service, help and support, together with prompt response.   Not by price competition, as all the products will be available at ALL stores!

If this can be accomplished, together with the No Royalty policy I can envision a great potential to the Reallusion venture and a guaranteed success!

Mike Aparicio

By Bigboss - 15 Years Ago
Repackaging products for the Reallusion storefront makes perfect sense. For example, if people want to buy only one Skintight character Cloth, they can go on the CoolCreator storefront. Alternatively,  there could be a larger package available on the Reallusion storefront for those who want to buy a complete suite of Skintight Character Cloths. Pricing would be such that you get volume discount when you buy the entire suite of Characters.

Reallusion would get their sales commissions and the CCD would get the additional exposure that he would not get otherwise. iClone users that do not want to spend for an entire series of characters would go to the third party store. Those who don't mind spending the additional money would buy the larger pack on the Reallusion storefront.

Furthermore, you could even sell the same packages on both storefronts and have special business agreements in place for both entities to provide commissions to the sale initiator etc.

Ultimately, all of the above contribute to promoting the sale of iClone Licences.

There are many ways to build up a win-win scenario between two different entities when you have quality products and this is what CCD shall be seeking.

Cheers.

By stuckon3d - 15 Years Ago
Hi Reallusion,
I have another question, do we have to sell stuff using the "content store" if we create models on other packages (sketchup for example) and import them using exchange?
Because here is me concern, and I mentioned this before, I can understand people having to pay 50% of their income to you, if they are using your tools and models to make money, but is "extremely unfair" for the people that created 100% original content and all they are doing is converting the files to a format that makes it iclone compatible. Can you please clarify this point for me.

Thank you,

Stuckon3d
By Capemedia - 15 Years Ago
May I just chip in here Smile

Obviously I'm all for developers and CCD content makers getting everything they deserve and I for one have spent good money buying their stuff and will continue to do so.

However, my only concern regarding the Reallusion content store has been a bone of contention with me for some time now and dosen't seem to be going away.  The problem centers around "Element 5", I have no idea how you buy products in other countries but in the UK, we have to through "Element 5".

Now due to the fact this company is based in Germany we in the UK, MUST pay the VAT rate of the residing company, so we pay 19% VAT.  Even if the pound was doing fantastically well against the dollar, after the exchange rate is done, we then get screwed for another 19%.

Now I don't mind paying VAT but at least let us pay our own rate which is 15% in the UK.

Now if I go to Cool Clones, Clones2Go or any other independent store, I pay directly to these sites and just pay the exchange rate.  So for example a pack for $20 is all I pay, but if I bought the exact same product off RL's store I would have to pay $23.

As you can imagine the more expensive the item the worst the situation gets.

My answer would be, let us buy direct from Reallusion and not have to go through "Element 5".  We want to use good money to buy good content but not pay the German government for the pleasure.

Just my thoughts BigGrin

Cape!

By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
stuckon3d (5/9/2009)
I have another question, do we have to sell stuff using the "content store" if we create models on other packages (sketchup for example) and import them using exchange?

Because here is me concern, and I mentioned this before, I can understand people having to pay 50% of their income to you, if they are using your tools and models to make money, but is "extremely unfair" for the people that created 100% original content and all they are doing is converting the files to a format that makes it iclone compatible. Can you please clarify this point for me.

Thank you,

Stuckon3d

The CCD Agreement is specifically referring to content created with the CCD Developer tools such as the 3DS Max Plugin and the Max Avatar Templates. It is this content which must be sold through the Reallusion Content Store.

If you create content in Sketchup or any other 3D program and it doesn't use any of the developer tools then this won't be affected by the new agreement.

Hope this helps. Smile

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
Mr Edwards

I create everything myself, mesh, texture the lot. The only thing used is the Plug-in to get it to .vns format.  I will not accept that I can't sell what I have done at my own store and if this is a problem to RL, I believe that they should use .OBJ or any other format so we are not dependant of their so called tools.  On the other hand, if they pay me for all time I am spending to setup all the things I create, they can gladly start demanding what they want.  Also, if I conntinue to create content for iClone they have a much broader market of people that want european looking things NOT US. So in this manner I do promote them 100%.

Gorz

By Bigboss - 15 Years Ago
Taken as stated, it means I cannot sell my stuff on the CoolCreator Online Store unless I get written permission from Reallusion... The same applies to the ClonesToGo online store and White Tiger...

Where and How can I get such permission?

Is it automatically granted for developers that joined CCD Prior to this Rule being applied?

Pleae advice. 

Thanks.

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
It's me again!

I am sure CloneBot Zack is reading all this, so let's be constructive.

Clearly, Peter Edwards explains which are the products subject to the regulation.  Those derived from the 3D plugins and corresponding templates.

If you are a 3D developer-modeler working with MAX or Maya, and do not want to be included in the restriction, this is what you can do:

Export your stuff in a format 3Dxchange can read.   Then you avoid using the plugins altogether.   Of course, standard characters will not be easy to create without using the template, but it can be done.

If you are good enough, you can make animatable characters, and not need to export them directly as .VNS stuff.   

I don't think we are going to change RL policy regarding usage of their tools.  What we can do is look at other creative possibilities.    One idea is R.L.  Could sell licenses to use tools for out of house releases.

But the main thing, I am sure about is:   Fairness in business guarantees long term successful relationships!

Right?

Mike

By CloneBot Zack - 15 Years Ago
Yep, I was reading all of this. So it's my turn to dive in Smile

Ok, the issues I saw were as follows

  • A bit of confusion about tools and compensation
  • Permission to sale on their own sites
  • sharing shelf space
  • Cheaper prices compared to Reallusion Content Store
  • What changed?!

Confusion

As stated in the contract:
DEVELOPERS submit their ready-for-market content to Reallusion and if the ready-for-market content is indeed certified as a Reallusion content add-on pack then DEVELOPERS content will be posted for sale for a commission of 50% of net sales of content.

Commission has nothing to do with the tools you use. Our tools exist to help you develop using outside resources and tools such as 3DS Max, Sketchup, Photoshop, crayons and/or finger painting... anything that you use for development. The commission is profit-sharing, not a license fee nor a penalty for using our tools. If you wish to access our market place with access to approximately 800,000+ customers spanning education, animation, video producers, across many, many countries on this planet (though we have considered doing business with Martians :alienSmile, then you must profit-share with Reallusion.

In fact, this not a new concept. The only change that occured here from the "old" agreement to the new "agreement" is the word net sales, ready-for-market, and the stipulation of forfeit 20% of compensation if Reallusion is requested to make marketing materials for artist instead of generated by artist.

Permission

Lot's of clarification needed her. And this is eactly why we have this forum thread. 
Having our permission is not a content by content request. But say for instance, as with case with two of the most familiar sites, CoolCreators and Clone2Go, White Tiger online stores.  We ask that you have Reallusion's approval simply because we are trying to protect customers. I guess the best way is to explain, is with an example:

Evil-Store, who does not have Reallusion's permission. Creates content using our tools, and then says, "This is the greatest pack ever- the Clonebot Kcaz, it's totally awesome!" So, we unwittingly buy this pack, turns out we just installed the Trojan-Worm-Great-Balls-of-Fire-Death-Virus, which renders our wonderful super-duper desk top computer with that new-state of the art-super awesome 5 million GHrz Video Card into a mere oversized paper weight... <Gasp in Horror Crying>

Clones2Go, White Tiger and CoolCreators do not pander such things. They offer content, and therefore, we say kudos to you, sirs and ma'ams. Those storefronts are not guranteed by Reallusion, but guaranteed by those said parties, but we know they are not trying to trick you into downloading malicious materials. However, as for quality, pricing standards, and other legal etc. etc. We do hold those storefronts accountable for the actions of their members. But, we never had any problem, and we really appreciate Clones2Go, White Tiger and CoolCreators and all of their efforts in promoting iClone, CrazyTalk and all other Reallusion products, they are our biggest fans, and we are their biggest fans!

You don't need to ask for permission for every content you create, but if you wish to sell it, then let us know, so we know you are not abusing our tools to create a Take-Over-The-World-Super-Virus. But if you wish to sell on the Clones2Go, CoolCreators, Amazon.com, Clonebot Zack's Awesome Store (I made that last one up...)
Then go for it! It's your content, your creation, do with it as you like. CoolCreators and Clones2Go has to be responsible to make sure their members selling content on their store are not doing anything bad, and check the quality, guarantee no viruses, or etc etc.

If you are selling content on a store not mentioned here, send me an email. Smile
developer@reallusion.com

Sharing Shelf Space

What do you mean, your shelf isn't big enough?! Just kidding, we do share ours, its called Certified Content Developers. Tongue
Every member of CCD is viewed as their own company in our eyes. In fact, we promote that with the Commercialization Guide, be your own business. The reason is.... drum roll please...

If you have not noticed yet, the content store and developer center is slowly, but surely, changing. We are moving to a more open market for the content store. What does that mean? Well in a nutshell, it means the following (but of course not limited to the following):
CCD member can have these powers on the new content store (of the future):

  • Customer Base control
  • Subscriptions to their content and shelf space
  • information channels to communicate your content
  • updated information on market behavior
  • managing your business opportunities
  • access to multiple markets and storefronts
  • allow comments and ratings of their goods
  • email lists of their customers to share updates and new releases
  • and more...

But to get from where we are now to where we want to go, takes a little change... Royalty-Free is the first, but crucial change. "Pardon our Dust" w00t

Price discrepancy?!

I hope not! If you are selling packs at a cheaper price that what you have placed on Reallusion store, then you have committed a big "No-No", or what it's called in the legal world, arbitrage. With the agreement of permission from Reallusion to Developer, packs created to be sold on Reallusion, cannot be sold as is on their own, or other's store front for cheaper. Let's take a look at another example to clarify this point.

Clonebot Zack creates a pack of 5 clonebots, calls it 5-Bots, and places it on the Reallusion online store for $10 (in theory, $2 per robot character). If Zack then turns around and sells 5-Bots on a 3rd party site for $8
 or even for $10, then Zack has broken the developer agreement. If Zack broke the pack apart, and sold each robot individually, for $2 or less, Zack would have broken the agreement. If Zack sells the individual robots for $2.01, then Zack hs not broken the agreement, but Zack is playing with fire...

The moral of the story is, if you have content placed on the Reallusion content store, you cannot sell that exact pack for less or equal price on another site (You can't even change the name to Five-Bots and get away with it). You can sell invidual items of a pack, but not at a price less than the unit price of that content on Reallusion store front.

No storefront, as I am aware of, is doing this... if you are, please stop... nobody likes criminals and pirates. Well, Pirates of the Carribean were cool... BigGrin

What Changed?!

The reality is, all the aforementioned concerns were also included in the "old" contract. Permission was required, arbitrage was bad, shelf space, and profit sharing was 50%. So... what changed?
Let me outline it below:

  • Royalty Free- before Developers had a choice, "to be or not to be" Royalty Free, now, the choice is, if you want to be part of our store, then you must be royalty free.
  • Ready-for-market- you have to have marketing materials of a high standard outlined in the Commericialization Guide
  • 50% of net sales (it was always this way, but now we clearly state it)
  • 20% forfeit of profit if we do the marketing for you (it was always this way, but now we clearly state it)

So I hope that clears up a few matters. But keep the good questions and concerns and what ever else you got coming. It's Monday, "I'll be here all week!" Hehe

 

 

By Bigboss - 15 Years Ago
Thanks.

One more point, ...

The Reallusion Submission Form still asks for "Commercial" versus "Noncommercial" use of our submission? Shouldn't the option disappear?

Thanks. 

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Please CloneBot, reading this paragraph:

You don't need to ask for permission for every content you create, but if you wish to sell it, then let us know, so we know you are not abusing our tools to create a Take-Over-The-World-Super-Virus. But if you wish to sell on the Clones2Go, CoolCreators, Amazon.com, Clonebot Zack's Awesome Store (I made that last one up...)
Then go for it! It's your content, your creation, do with it as you like. CoolCreators and Clones2Go has to be responsible to make sure their members selling content on their store are not doing anything bad, and check the quality, guarantee no viruses, or etc etc.

After all, then it is a fact to sell products created with the 3D plugin tools and templates at other stores, without having them first submitted for certification, or as I think the rule says, ANY creation made with the tools MUST be submitted for certification?

I find some confusion here, but I am glad to hear our friend's stores, still can sell their products without having them sold too at the Content Store.   Is it this way?

Then, is it only required those products should be certified?    Or not?

What does the paragraph: "You don't need to ask for permission for every content you create, but if you wish to sell it, then let us know" ?

Please CloneBot explain this a little better!

Mike

By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
Apparition (5/11/2009)

What does the paragraph: "You don't need to ask for permission for every content you create, but if you wish to sell it, then let us know" ?

Please CloneBot explain this a little better!

Mike

I think what Zack is saying is that if you plan to setup a new 3rd party store, you need to get in touch and explain your plans. Once permission is granted that is it. You don't need to get permission every time you release a new pack, just the one time at startup.

By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
BigBoss40 (5/11/2009)
Thanks.

One more point, ...

The Reallusion Submission Form still asks for "Commercial" versus "Noncommercial" use of our submission? Shouldn't the option disappear?

Thanks. 

The new agreement comes into effect from the 22nd May. The dual option should be removed by then but if it isn't only the "Commercial" option will apply. If you were to choose "Non-Commercial", your pack won't make it into the store. (I'm sure a reminder will be sent should that happen though).

By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
Gorz (5/10/2009)
Mr Edwards

I create everything myself, mesh, texture the lot. The only thing used is the Plug-in to get it to .vns format.  I will not accept that I can't sell what I have done at my own store and if this is a problem to RL, I believe that they should use .OBJ or any other format so we are not dependant of their so called tools.  On the other hand, if they pay me for all time I am spending to setup all the things I create, they can gladly start demanding what they want.  Also, if I conntinue to create content for iClone they have a much broader market of people that want european looking things NOT US. So in this manner I do promote them 100%.

Gorz

Hi Gorz,

Hopefully Zack's reply will have put your mind at rest over this issue. If you still have any concerns just let us know.

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
Maby?!

Gorz

By CloneBot Zack - 15 Years Ago
Hey everyone,

Permission means that the stores are not sending you malicious material. Like I said, we do not gurantee content sold on 3rd party stores. We do have certification for content sold on Reallusion store, because we have a quality check and assurance testing the materials as well as judging the marketing materials. In the past, we simply advised on marketing materials, now it is part of the certification process to allow content to be sold on the Reallusion Content store, "Ready-for-Market". Better marketing material will help Reallusion market and sale CCD made content. Wink

Certified Content Developers are developers have been certified to use tools to create content, and if they wish, distribute their creations. Reallusion offers a store front where those developers can take advantage of the high traffic that peruse Reallusion content. For this, we ask for profit-sharing, which is typical practice of the 3D animation industry.

Therefore, long story short: Artists are certified by Reallusion to have access to tools, guides, templates, plug-ins, and whitepapers to assist them in development. The quality and reliability of the content is assured by that artist alone.

However, quality and reliability of content sold on the Reallusion store is checked and thus Certified to be on ourstore. But that certification extends to only the content on Reallusion store, not to that artist.

An example story, get out your popcorn...
So if, Clonebot Zack made 5-Bots, sold it on Reallusion store, Reallusion would certify my pack 5-Bots, but if I made a pack called 5-Clones, sold it on a 3rd party site, the Reallusion certification would not extend to that content of 5-Clones, despite having content being sold on the Reallusion storefront. Reallusion can only certify content that has been submitted to us for testing.

The 3rd party sites must do their own form of reliability check for their users, and I am sure they do. Hehe

Yes, the Commercial and Non-Commercial option is being removed... When, I am not sure, except it will be before May 22, 2009 Smile

Does anyone have any questions about the Commercial Guide? Royalty Free?

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Not any more questions!

It is easy to see the "ball" bounced back!

There is one clear concept coming out of all this havock:    R.L Certification is a RealValue!

I am proud of it, and that is why I brag about it!  Since the beginning!

So I am NOT planning on reducing my prices because I do think my products are of RealValue, worth all pennies payed for it, and hardly compensating for the long hours, days, weeks and months of loosing sleep, entertainment, peace and even wife appreciation!

But all it means is:  Pride for having done the best possible to get the R.L. Certification!

It is worth the effort!

Miguel Emilio Aparicio - Mike - Apparition

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
Mr Clonebot Zack, who you are?

There are a lot of logical holes in your reasoning!

In one message you write that "named" White Tiger belongs to the shops you feel will not spread viruses and malicious code. In it self true and correct, we try to give only what we would accept our self for the level of payment we request. 

But you write

"Certified Content Developers are developers have been certified to use tools to create content, and if they wish, distribute their creations."

I have never been certified by anyone,  the only thing I did to get hold of the only thing I use, I guess a old plug in. Since the "new one" for what ever reason does not work here. Was to buy iCLone PRO and CrazyTalk.  That allowed me into the CCD resources and gave me a unrestricted DOWNLOAD access to the plugin I am using now.

The only time anybody have talked about me about certification was when RL accepted my giraffe into your shop. That is about as much contact I have ever had with anyone of you. I can see further holes in your argument and a very disturbing future ensnarement of developers and their content. 

My former Korean teacher would say:

- You have a silver tung mr Clonebot... but why is there poison on it?  Unsure

In my case I will sit back and wait and see, I am sure RL will find new fantastic ways to restrict, bind and eventually strangle every developer into your own nest. My fear is that you are presently creating a trap for us, get us more dependant and see a magical market, so we don't resist when the final blow comes.  I have been in business for to long to buy your arguments fully. IF THEY ARE TRUE, this look decent for the future, but I am anything but shore of RL:s true intentions.  Basically all of this will strike hardest against the customer who will have in the end a stereotyped and boring content to use. If your silver tung rely message the true intention, then perhaps iClone users have one of the absolutley best possibility to get a diverse and exciting, quickly changing material, suitable for a lot of creative ideas in the world. Cool

I am anything but convinced, the future will tell what will happened and I hope my fear is unfounded, but a snake is calm before the strike!

A very worried

Gorz

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
actually in business fair is sharing expenses and profits.

I don't think anyone would be very happy if reallusion insisted their content developers had to share in advertising costs , insurance costs , salaries, and comissions. and sales loss because one developer decided to spread viruses with the reallusion logo...while others are just giving things away for free.

I think if the developers really want to see just how fair reallusion has been with its customers...reallusion should just kill the developer program and hire a few local staff to make 3D designs all day and make it illegal for anyone other than Reallusion to sell their own proprietary format

then they can open the formats, let the whole world do whatever low quality goods they want, and keep their own store front and format.

I think we should keep things in perspective and figure out ways as a community to help keep reallusions lights on. They are clearly trying to help us imo.

heck, they didn't even have to create a forum, they don't need our opinion to keep their lights on, they need our help.

from what i see, the developer program is someone offering to us, what they wish they had when they started.

we should be figuring out ways to honor that kind gesture.

maybe it might be smart to start from the beginning,

we have a chance to make money.

lets use more reasoning than finger pointing, I want to make cash and I want reallusion to stay in business so we can work together.

caring for "everyones" best interest really matters, especially in business.
By Alley - 15 Years Ago
I would like to add a suggestion that I have made before.  I know the content on the Reallusion store is slowly being made easier to find with the addition of new tabs such as Heads and Music, etc.

However, in the case of G2 Textures, for example, the thumbs are simply in chronologial order.  It would be great if their were sub-tabs for category....such as War, Business, Present-Day Casual, Sports, Historical, etc. etc.

Right now, for example, if someone wanted a business suit for female......it's so far back in the thumbs, it could easily be missed.

So, just a suggestion. Smile

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
think of it like this, when the rest of the world says they have no work for you because the economy is horrible, reallusion said, come , I'll give you a chance to make money with us.

so lets get this right because we all need to eat lol BigGrin

and im convinced elvis did not need all 6 billion people in the world to like him to be a star.

good for him!

if i personally wanted to be selfish about my income, i'd encourage reallusion to discontinue their developer program, it doesn't affect me because i do audio and not 3D design. Then I'd encourage them to open formats so we have a higher level clientèle, the people with fat wallets, I'd encourage "artists" to develop more stories that can be sold to hollywood for real money, and I'd want to be a part of the store front trying to sell useful royalty free simple sound effects to novice designers thats for use in iclone only, while pitching my work to the more industrial crowd of clients that suddenly find iclone useful for getting work done as fast as possible to keep their overhead down.

I personally don't like the developer program, it seems too limiting on a program that can speed up the work flow on an industrial level.

so , if i speak up for 3D artists, it's because i care that others eat as well. I'd make more money with a hollywood / commercial level of clients myself. I'd rather sell stories than gunshots and tank tops lol.

So truth be told, im rooting for reallusions best interest, because ultimately its in my best interest.
By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Dear Gorz!

I have to come up to rescue CloneBot Zack.  He is NOT AT ALL what you suggest in your comment about him.   CloneBot Zack is a very, very helpful person and forum moderator, dedicated to watch mainly for CCDs interests, looking for new opportunities for us, creating contests, and promotional events to stimulate content sales.   He is responsive, diligent and a good friend, ready to help and provide what is at his reach!

Of course he is an important person ar R.L. but he is precisely the force pro-CCDs we all need to have in a company which is logically interested in their own business and profit.

I do find a contradiction, but it is in you message.   If you are NOT a registered CCD, you could NOT have the latest plugins and templates, as those are provided UPON Registration, REQUEST and careful review by the R.L CCD program management.

So the question would be:  Where did you get the plugins?   Are you talking of the latest plugins available, or the older versions of it?

As far as I know, you MUST register as a CCD to gain access to the tool download pages.  Clearly you can see R.L. is worried about knowing EXACTLY who is developing and what!

I think you might be over worried too.   No one is going to "eat" from solely selling iClone content!   That's for sure!    Part of the benefit is the joy of contributing to this novel form of creativity, participating with other intelligent and dedicated people working on the same, and making some revenues out of it, but I don't think earnings will be big enough to "live" on it and to buy goodies as Plasma TVs, BMWs or vacations in Florence!  BigGrin

I don't think, speaking or making hard comments is the way we want this forum to go.   We think this place is for clear, friendly, constructive and positive communications. Cool

Let's keep it this way!   Wink

Mike

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
bah , kill the developer program, 1 hit movie is worth more than a thousand royalty free bullets! lets get those guys with the fat wallets in here !!
By Alley - 15 Years Ago
Mike - I think what Gorz said he uses the plugins that are accessible to anyone who buys Iclone Pro and registers.  And he is correct, there are a certain number that can be accessed before CCD certification level that allows youto sell on Reallusion website.

Gorz - when you submitted your Giraffe to Reallusion, and they accepted it, that was presumably your CCD "certification". 

The only things I see different from before are this:

1)  If you sell a product on Reallusion, it must not be sold cheaper somewhere else.  If you sell a product somewhere else, but not on Reallusion also - you can charge whatever you want for it.  Reallusion reserve the right to be aware of your store's existence, because you are selling products that represent their product and they would like to protect their customers to some degree.  They already stated that your store, Clones2go and Cool Creators are trusted sellers.

2)  At the same time, anything the other three stores sell, cannot be in any way guaranteed by Reallusion as totally safe and complete product.  Makes sense.

3)  If I decide to open a store, I would have to get Reallusion permission first if I am selling anything that uses the Reallusion provided tools.  I assume textures would not be included in this, nor is anything made in sketchup.

4)  If I submit content to Reallusion, they are going to be much more strict in future on the creative shots used to promote the pack.  The marketing/visual is a big part of selling and poorly done promos will affect sales.  Therefore, guidelines are supplied now on how to create acceptable promos.

5)  Additionally, Reallusion will assist in the promo, if I feel unable to do it...for that they take an additional 20%. 

6)  All content sold through Reallusion now is royalty free.

Unless I am missing something, then I don't really understand how this is very much different before, except the fact that it has now been clearly stated.

And I agree with the others - I do this because I enjoy it and not because I think I will retire on the profits Tongue  Its nice pocket money, allows us to buy more Reallusion content without guilt .Laugh

By aknzrdude - 15 Years Ago
clarifying question on royalty free - i do textures and if i apply my textures on a mesh created by bigboss and someone purchase that textured character - i have no problems if the buyer uses the character in whatever vehicle - movies print ads, etc- but i will have an issue if the user saves the texture file and uses it on another non BigBoss character mesh - it might not fit and might not carry over the quality of the original work and cause potential damage to my name (not that it is undamage already)

will this be protected under the RL royalty free rules?
By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Well, this thread is getting really interesting!

I backup 100% what aknzrdude says about the logical limits to "royalty free" concepts.

I also appreciate a lot Alley's help in clarifying, even more and  saying "nothing has practically changed".  Very right!    This is the rule that got to rule what was already ruled! BigGrin

But, regarding the tools:  I just made a test, two minutes ago.    I went into the Developer Center Download tools section, without logging in, as a CCD.

I clicked on each and every item in the tools list, old or new, and in all cases I got a message saying this downloads are reserved for Registered CCDs!   the newest tools for G3 creation are even restricted to all CCDs, and must be requested by separate communication with the Developer Center Management.

It is obvious Developer Tools cannot be in the hands of unregistered persons, as they are ALL reserved for properly registered CCDs.

I think it is reasonable R.L. watches for all kind of items developed with tools obtained some other way, and not by registration.

Maybe CloneBot can come up again and stir a little bit this HOT thread!

Finally, boredom has faded away and there is new, fresh fun at the forum! w00t

By animagic - 15 Years Ago
aknzrdude (5/12/2009)
clarifying question on royalty free - i do textures and if i apply my textures on a mesh created by bigboss and someone purchase that textured character - i have no problems if the buyer uses the character in whatever vehicle - movies print ads, etc- but i will have an issue if the user saves the texture file and uses it on another non BigBoss character mesh - it might not fit and might not carry over the quality of the original work and cause potential damage to my name (not that it is undamage already)

will this be protected under the RL royalty free rules?

iClone allows you to edit textures as well, so a user may want to edit your texture. Or the character could be reshaped through iClone changing its appearance. There are many ways to abuse iClone that could affect the original developer's creations; I guess that the risk you take as developer.

The only thing I feel you could object to if is someone were to resell your texture modified as his/her own.
By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
thats easy, just offer a quality assurance guarantee and the user voids the guarantee if used other than manufacturer intended.

now ..about making big money, I know the next steven spielberg is out here somewhere, lets make hits!!
By aknzrdude - 15 Years Ago
that is a good point zuilzen - in the context of use - i would be ok with that - someone can change body parts, change colors as long as they use it for thier own movie/print productions
- in that case i would say my question would apply only to reselling -i.e. take a material i created (including clothing/texture pattern, opacity maps etc.) and changing the colors and reselling them
By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
aknzrdude (5/12/2009)
clarifying question on royalty free - i do textures and if i apply my textures on a mesh created by bigboss and someone purchase that textured character - i have no problems if the buyer uses the character in whatever vehicle - movies print ads, etc- but i will have an issue if the user saves the texture file and uses it on another non BigBoss character mesh - it might not fit and might not carry over the quality of the original work and cause potential damage to my name (not that it is undamage already)

will this be protected under the RL royalty free rules?

Hi Akn,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you what you are saying but even without the royalty free change it would be impossible to police what someone does with a texture after they purchase it. Be it from the Reallusion Content Store or any other store, if the user wants to edit the texture, there really is no way to prevent that.

Say for example someone purchases a full length gown texture but decides that they would also like to make a mini skirt out of it for their new movie. How could you stop them? Of course they can't sell the edited texture or share it with others, but including it in a movie or still image wouldn't be something that could be stopped with or without royalty free.

In fact for many users new to texturing this is a common way to get started. Make some changes to an existing outfit to make a new one. I expect most of us have done that at some point in time.

By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
Apparition (5/12/2009)

But, regarding the tools:  I just made a test, two minutes ago.    I went into the Developer Center Download tools section, without logging in, as a CCD.

I clicked on each and every item in the tools list, old or new, and in all cases I got a message saying this downloads are reserved for Registered CCDs!   the newest tools for G3 creation are even restricted to all CCDs, and must be requested by separate communication with the Developer Center Management.

It is obvious Developer Tools cannot be in the hands of unregistered persons, as they are ALL reserved for properly registered CCDs.

Hi Mike,

I think the point Gorz was making is that everyone who purchases iClone and registers it automatically becomes a CCD member. They don't have to apply or be vetted, they just have to login with their account details.

Once logged in you have access to all the tools and documentation apart from the G2 & G3 Templates which have to be applied for. The point is that you are not really certified to any level or standard until you submit a pack to the Content Store and have it tested and accepted.

If a CCD member decides to sell their content on his/her own store then they have never passed any form of testing as to the quality of the content they are developing. Yet they are still actually a Certified Content Developer and could claim that on their website.

This is why permission will now be required to sell in your own store, if you have used the CCD developer tools to create the content.

Simple isn't it. Crazy

By aknzrdude - 15 Years Ago
you raise good points Pete - and yes you are correct there is no way to police this - so the seller has to take the risk - but having said that will 3rd party offerings then be offered via backstage and so be protected under some type of DRM?
By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Well...   Dear Pete....   This thread seems to be going for ever, mainly because of the clear "step back" being done, after hearing complaints and arguments.

The whole thing is like:   Someone climbs a tree to bring coconuts down.  While up there, there is an african bee colony, who gets upset, and starts biting the climber and the people on the ground.    I a hurry the man gets down, or better, slides down and tells the people:  "Hey, sorry.   I don't think the bees want me to bring coconuts".  Then another mans says:  "Well... Not only that.   You climbed a cedar tree, not a coconut tree"!.....

I went back to the "Contract" PDF document.   I found this text, I suppose it is in English, or I might be wrong by the way it has been twisted lately:   Let's read:

(little font not relevant)

2. OWNERSHIP. The Reallusion (CCD) DEVELOPER Tools and all Reallusion, Inc. information on this web site is copyrighted proprietary material of Reallusion, Inc. and may not be copied, reproduced, modified, published, uploaded, posted, transmitted, or distributed in any way, without Reallusion, Inc.'s prior written permission. Except as expressly provided herein, Reallusion, Inc. and its suppliers do not grant any express or implied right to you under any patents, copyrights, trademarks, or trade secret information of Reallusion, Inc. or its suppliers.

Output from Reallusion developer plug-ins and tools may be only sold through the Reallusion Certified Content developer program and by Reallusion, Inc. CCD members may use their custom generated files inside their own Reallusion software projects or share their developer output files at no cost. Developer output files may not be sold outside the Reallusion marketplace without written permission from Reallusion.

My wife is a lawyer specialized in International Law and Intellectual Property Rights.

I asked her to "interpret" this paragraph and she said:

It means EXACTLY what it means! "Output"  products may be ONLY sold through the Reallusion, etc. etc.

And the paragraph is absolutely explicit.     SO.....

What is all this fuzz?  Visitors and Reallusion spoke persons are saying "Nay, nay.   The contract says one thing but you can do another thing"   This is legally DANGEROUS!

Unless those paragraphs in the "contract" document are rewritten and published with the changes done, what is true is the legal power of it as it is.   At ANY time RL could revert the conditions back to what the paper says.  Then... Bang!

You must really CONVINCE me it is not the case and that me, my wife, Shakespeare and many folks are totally "bananas" and the contract actually says what "it does not say!. HeheHehe

 

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
no legal troubles, fat wallets, great movies, commercials lots of royalties and publishing, fast cars, plasma tvs, not everyone likes that idea, i know.... tough call.
By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
You forgot:

Sexy Playmates, beautiful escorts, unthinkable waitresses!   BigGrin

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
yeah ,, exactly!! but i was trying to be politically correct!!

ok, this is what we do, we make the standard version free and leave the watermark on it, ( i know thats what they do already but we reinvent the wheel ) then we make it "free and easy" -wink- free to make great movies, easy to buy hot packages ....

first tier of product, the pro version, you guys can debate about the developer version!

2nd tier, the Enterprise version, this is the version that come with the gizmo and gadgets for open format exchange, I know im going to end up paying 200 bucks more for it, but it will be worth it cuz thats where the guys with the fat wallets will be. this is where the Fat wallet bundles come in , whoo hoo...the power designers can make 4-500 dollar super high quality packages for directors that "need it looking final even if its a demo" look. You have NO idea how important that is to people, you only have one shot at a first impression and if your demo looks crappy ...c ya ..i'll call you never again ...

3rd tier, the Enterprise version with a corporate license, that will more than make up for the store front sales !!!!!! that version is the one that the guys who own endorphin would want to buy!! but the enterprise guys can mingle with them!! -wiggles eyebrows-

THEN, Get this , suddenly reallusion certified users are important, especially when Joey catches a cold and the director needs some work done fast , he knows reallusion has many talented designers, they call reallusion for help in sorting out quality designers etc ....

and reallusion takes a commission for helping get everyone "real work" those commissions would be worth more to reallision because truth be told, i honestly have a lot of respect for the talent on this forum, and it kills me to see you guys aspire to make tank tops!!

work together and make hits , and make reallusion commissions as pro artists.

there will be less debate about making an extra 2 dollars from your own sites, thats for sure!!

and what about those people that have a script and an uncle in hollywood but know nothing about computers ?

how important is your service as real artists to them ? thats worth more than a hair package.

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Oh!  You sold me!

So add me to the list.   When you get one of those Fatsie wallets, remember I am an incredible iClone artist-developer!

You drive the BMW.  I will drive the Mercedes!

Brunettes go with you, I'll keep the blondies!

We hire Eminem to entertain us and Jennifer Lopez to pour the drinks!

O my gosh....   I am starting to feel success...    And all thanks to Trinity and Violet who started inspiring us into becoming this astonishing, incredible Clone artists!

Gee!  Thanks Reallusion... Thanks!

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
its not going to happen if projects cant get transferred over easily.

it needs to be able to go from home to cable tv in a few clicks.
By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Did you hear that Peter?  Did you hear that CloneBot?

Better hook my iClone to the Cable TV wire.... NOW!

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
lol, be nice, part of the reason i'm so active is that i was upset no one responded to my post about a movie club. Im quite a character. I think reallusion is doing a great job and you guys should to BigGrin

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
you hear that peter ? you hear that clone bot ? i appreciate what you do for us, and need us as a community to do our part. thank you.

very well, since you guys insist on keeping the developer program, it should be a requirement that developers are more helpful and friendly on the forums.

i really don't need the open format lol Smile that was fun.
By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
aknzrdude (5/12/2009)
you raise good points Pete - and yes you are correct there is no way to police this - so the seller has to take the risk - but having said that will 3rd party offerings then be offered via backstage and so be protected under some type of DRM?

Actually I posted a mail in the Poser world a long time ago of a way to sign your texture in a way that is inspired by holographic tech. This will allow you to in many cases ID your texture without actually the need to gain access to the original picture. Let me give you an example.

At this time I took a picture posted by the artist Richabri

I engraved the picture with the "protection" ID code over all the picture. The nice thing is you can't see that it is actually engraved all over!

The original was aproximatley 800x600 pixels big.

I then cut out a piece starting at 320x240 and scanned and offcourse I could ID that

I went all the way down to a piece not bigger than 12x12 pixels and still I could find the ID with enough clarity to possitivley ID the original picture.

I also applied the picture to a cylinder and re rendered with this picture as a texture, then I analyzed the newly rendered picture and could still ID the original source from where it came.

In my mind a good way to start the problem with copyrights and protecting textures, but I guess they never rely understood what this was. But I know I have that code some ware here if anybody want I could dust it off and see if it is possible to improve it even further..

Regards Gorz

By surajit - 15 Years Ago
Hi Gorz,

That is a fantastic idea. I never knew the technique though I found certain houses including Redhouse Studios of Daz using it all the time.

Whenever, I transferred any of their props through 3d Exchange into iClone, deep down only from certain angles I could see their company name engraved in Red deep below. And this also was very difficult to see. Does not affect either rendering or visual experience, and you have to work hard, if you don't know how to, to find that it is there.

Personally, I would like to use that ability in my textures.

Regards

Surajit

By aknzrdude - 15 Years Ago
Gorz i've actually used this technique before using a process called steganography- let's you embed and encrypt a file within the picture - so in my case i created a logo that i embedded within the jpg - to the casual user it appears to be a jpg file but if you open it withthe steganography software, the hidden file becomes visible

however th problem still lies is policing - how do you know someone 5000 miles away is not mucking around with your textures and reselling them unless you or someone else recognize your work and let' you know

having these protected via drm via backstage will help alleviate this
By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
aknzrdude (5/13/2009)
Gorz i've actually used this technique before using a process called steganography- let's you embed and encrypt a file within the picture - so in my case i created a logo that i embedded within the jpg - to the casual user it appears to be a jpg file but if you open it withthe steganography software, the hidden file becomes visible

however th problem still lies is policing - how do you know someone 5000 miles away is not mucking around with your textures and reselling them unless you or someone else recognize your work and let' you know

having these protected via drm via backstage will help alleviate this

Agreed, I never said I could do anything about the anybody meddling with your textures, I only said that I could/can detect your ownership and origin giving you a valid claim requesting people to stop doing things they should'nt.  My technique is absolutly invisible and as I said it is retrievable sometimes even AFTER re-rendering of the texture. I know about the steganography but I wanted a system allowing me to detect origin even after both rerendering and fragmentation. To some degree it was a success.

Gorz

By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
Apparition (5/12/2009)

Output from Reallusion developer plug-ins and tools may be only sold through the Reallusion Certified Content developer program and by Reallusion, Inc. CCD members may use their custom generated files inside their own Reallusion software projects or share their developer output files at no cost. Developer output files may not be sold outside the Reallusion marketplace without written permission from Reallusion.

My wife is a lawyer specialized in International Law and Intellectual Property Rights.

I asked her to "interpret" this paragraph and she said:

It means EXACTLY what it means! "Output"  products may be ONLY sold through the Reallusion, etc. etc.

And the paragraph is absolutely explicit.     SO.....

What is all this fuzz?  Visitors and Reallusion spoke persons are saying "Nay, nay.   The contract says one thing but you can do another thing"   This is legally DANGEROUS!

Unless those paragraphs in the "contract" document are rewritten and published with the changes done, what is true is the legal power of it as it is.   At ANY time RL could revert the conditions back to what the paper says.  Then... Bang!

You must really CONVINCE me it is not the case and that me, my wife, Shakespeare and many folks are totally "bananas" and the contract actually says what "it does not say!. HeheHehe

Mike,

I think you are concentrating too much on the first part of the paragraph and not seeing the last part (even though you highlighted it in red). Tongue

"Developer output files may not be sold outside the Reallusion marketplace without written permission from Reallusion." (I like yellow)

As long as written permission has been granted, you can sell content created with the developer tools in your own store.

Now Zack has effectively given that permission here on the forum to existing stores, such as Clones2Go, CoolCreators and White Tiger. I would advise anyone who still has concerns to get in touch at developer@reallusion.com and get that written permission so they are completely covered.

Then you will be able to sleep soundly at night again. Wink

 

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
On the contrary Pete!  You are concerning "too little" about the first paragraph.

Legally it is an ambiguity which could be resolved either way, under litigation.

Of course you have to get me right!  I am glad the other stores are NOT affected by the "no measure"!

What is missing is an agreement with authorized stores, to accept products actually on sale only at CC.   If not, and I repeat, this ends up in a disadvantage for CCDRCs which can get rejected at other stores ,for their products being considered "competitors" to their own, while at the CC, nobody is going to take care of that, allowing ALL products on the shelf.

I guess my posture is quite clear.  Is it not?

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
aknzrdude

To my surprise I actually had the picture material still here...

This bigger picture is the one that has been engraved with the code. It is possible with ease to find the copyright in the smaller of them.  But here comes a much tougher test series!

    

No it's not a fault, all these fragments (6) still show up the DAZ engravement and in this way identifies who own this picture initially...

Just a demonstration of what the system is capable of..

Gorz

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Hey Gorz!  I like your animals!   Fantastic!

You really are a CCDRC!

Mike

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
I see Gorz.  But would this image watermark survive, resampling, jpg conversion with some filtering?

I really doubt it!    I work in software design and I can tell you jpg works by precisely eliminating those image elements not readily visible or to subtle for the human eye to perceive!

Send me the image.  I will "fix" it for the sake of science and not piracy!

By Bigboss - 15 Years Ago
Intellectual property rights always trigger the most interesting discussions BigGrin

Bottom line, nothing changes much except that Bigboss products will soon hit the Reallusion online store at the same time they hit the CoolCreators online store and this is good news. Smile

The beauty of it all is that I can prepare the same Promo material for both stores since they are almost completely compatible.Talk about integration!

The community on this forum is very small. There are many potential buyer that only see the Reallusion shelf and never hit the forum. I believe that by posting on the Reallusion shelf, I will have acces to a customer base that I would not have reached otherwise. CoolCreators will continue to buy from either stores and that is great.

So personally, I thank Zack and Reallusion for maintaining the relationship with existing third party online stores.

YUP !Smile

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
Apparition (5/13/2009)
I see Gorz.  But would this image watermark survive, resampling, jpg conversion with some filtering?

I really doubt it!    I work in software design and I can tell you jpg works by precisely eliminating those image elements not readily visible or to subtle for the human eye to perceive!

Send me the image.  I will "fix" it for the sake of science and not piracy!

 

I know the problem with the .JPG  algorithm. Fact is that some strings does survive, not always but in fact it works quite well.  It also survived as I described to work as a texture and be re rendered and still able to ID the ownership.  "NOT ALWAYS" but rather often..  I am going through the code again, I will probably release the software on White Tiger...

Gorz

By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
Apparition (5/13/2009)
On the contrary Pete!  You are concerning "too little" about the first paragraph.

Well I'm not a lawyer Mike but Reallusion does have the services of a legal team. I'm sure this document has been passed by them as to its legality. Adding a proviso to a statement is perfectly valid so I don't think anyone needs to be overly concerned.

By Wolfzone Digital - 15 Years Ago
Thanks for your patience with this thread Peter. I know it can be trying at times sorting through the convoluted mess of posts that hit this forum. Your diligence is appreciated.
By Bigboss - 15 Years Ago
I sympathize Smile
By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Me too!

Of course we have to agree the post was created to hear all possible comments to the new rules.

Now I have a clear understanding of the somewhat strange redaction used in the new rule statement.     I was waiting for this opportunity.

I am happy the works by BigBoss and associates will be now at the RL Store and of course about the welcoming response from Clones2Go and CCC to generously accept my products at their great shelves!

I think any possibility of rivalry or misunderstood competition is dissolved by this measures.

Thanks Pete for you help understanding this all!.

By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
Just to let you know, the EULA has now been updated also.

You can take a look at the new EULA by clicking Here:

Thanks for all the kind words everyone. Feel free to post any questions you may have. Smile

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
I am a computer developer in all areas and one particular area where I want to use iClone is to be able to create ICON:s. It can be as simple as a SAVE or a LOAD ICON or maby support ICON:s  for symbolic or graphically devised software ( assembler ) creating systems. The ICON:s should be embedded in the program core, but as usual any embedded graphics can easily be extracted.

Question:

Can I render let's say 50 ICON:s to a development and embed these into the code? The EULA states that I can not spread image collection:s, question is the embedded ICON:s to be regarded as a collection of images.  I usually use formats like .jpg, .bmp, .gif and some times .ico format.

Question:

Can I render a collection of instruction movies and embed these into the software to clarify and enhance clarity of the softwares ( my developed software:s ) usage?

Question:

If webshops like White Tiger, CoolClones and Clones2GO and others make commercial film clip like I did of two deers in a nature frame, after that I have some other pictures rendered from the same setup as thumbnail and product picture + maby one or two extra for information and service to the customer, I THE BREAK THE EULA AGREMENT!

How do the external web shops suppose to act to make PR within the EULA?????

There is NEVER a question of using iClone or CrazyTalk or derivates of these, always the rendered out from mainly iClone but perhaps also CrazyTalk.

Gorz

P.S. Are you sure it is lawyers who wrote this ? D.S.

By surajit - 15 Years Ago
I dislike very much criticising anybody or anything publicly, but I cannot any more sit still.

Peter and Zack,

Reallusion might have a good legal team, with high class legal knowledge and abilities, but it seems to me they are without any business sense.

If we tie our future plans or even parts of it with the future of RA, then the prospects of lawyers forcing iClone to commit commercial suicide is something that needs to be addressed.

At a time, when newer and better softwares are coming up everyday, and every company is trying to increase their reach in every way possible, the RA lawyers seem to be on a spree trying to confine, strangle, and throttle most creative output possibilities of a tool solely and primarily meant for creative output. This is very self-conflicting.

Until now, the efforts had been to make all developers who use RA tools fall in line and align with company sales strategies. That is understandable, though its desirablity would vary from developer to developer. However, it is understandable, because it doesn't affect the commercial popularity of the software to the end user, the consumer who is king. And it ensures rather than endanger the survival of developers tied up with RA. (Though I believe any dreams,like I had, to become the world's richest man by developing iClone content, has been severely hampered).BigGrin

With the new changes in the EULA of the end user, the lawyers are disregarding the fact that it is the consumer who is king, and trying to dethrone him/her. This spells commercial suicide. The past EULA was far more logical, though I wouldn't waste time going over it clause by clause.

What in effect, the EULA is saying is you can create, but if you use RA software, you cannot enjoy the fruits of your own creation. It is a tacit signal to consumers to look for fairer pastures ( I am surprised that they also did not give the list of current free software which render animation as fast as iClone and with much higher quality output from models and scenes having millions of polygons. I know the list but would not mention in this post for I am not RA's lawyer and wouldn't want to scuttle the prospects of this brilliant software with so many possiblities that are now being lost).

The restriction upon selling video footage in video stocks, of images in clips, now spells a death blow to iClone end-usage. They could have asked that in such productions it always be acknowledged that iClone has been used in part or whole of the production. That would have increased the popularity, visibility, and reach of iClone without scuttling creativity and also maintaining and enhancing the interests of Reallusion. But no, your lawyers (Are they in the pay of other competitor companies, I wonder?) are out for the blood of iClone and iClone consumers, and all they want is to reduce the use and visibility of iClone.

By finally reducing the entire viability of using iClone for content production by the end user, RA's lawyers have successfully turned a professional software to a plaything of casual hobbyists, and turned a "movie machine" to one that produces movies only for home and personal enjoyment. In a highly competitive field where other software hold out the prospects of turning a hobby into a living, RA's lawyers are carefully closing that market to iClone. Hope sells better and fetches a higher price than actual things (ask the politicians), but the hope of doing something with iClone is now being stamped out methodically.

This chapter in iClone history (we do not want iClone itself to become history) would go down as THE GREAT CASTRATION OF CREATIVES BY LUNATICS.BigGrin

I request the administration of Reallusion to compare the EULAs of Poser, Daz, Vue, and other similar software which have a highly successful market by yourselves and not trust everything to the lawyers. They do not possess business sense and do not see the world from your eyes.

Also check the history of every software company which tied up with Autodesk and ended up in being bought out. See what changes they made to their EULAs before they began to suffer such reduction in sales that they had to allow the takeover bids by Autodesk.Tongue

Regards

Surajit

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Oh my God!

I was so tired of this thread I decided not to go and read the new EULA because I thought it would be as confusing and ambiguous as the first version.

After reading Surajit comment I said: "Maybe I have to read this"

And found the same kind of "legalese" mumbo-jumbo, but right there it was:

4. iClone and/or CrazyTalk output may be used, altered, or incorporated according to the guidelines described herein into any work (including broadcast, commercial, industrial, educational, and personal) that is created by YOU provided that work is not then sold or distributed as either a single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection.

I was so astonished reading this!   I have been training my students to become proficient in iCLone production.  But not to play games.  It was with the intention of providing them with the right knowledge to buy and use a tool good for making movies, videos, educational material and so forth, TO BE SOLD.      ALL THIS IS FORBBIDEN in the new EULA.

Unless of course, tomorrow moderators will come up and say: "Not really... No!  That is not what is said there.  Users can really sell their production.  It's just a matter of understanding better what is NOT said there"

This is unbelievable.  I will have to rethink URGENTLY my teaching programs, and probably redirect my students back to a more classic production approach, because iCLone and CrazyTalk just became a dead end alley, for any remunerative activity.

Hey Peter, hey CloneBot Zack!   Are you SURE the new EULA is supposed to say what it says?

Don't come up telling my I am "over concerned" or "too focused" in that particular paragraph!

Can you come and do a clear explanation and interpretation of this paragraph 4?

I need to know EXACTLY on what grounds are we, not as CCDs but as end users with educational projects already on their way.

I have to recall to your legal department they seem to ignore the principle of Non retroactivity of the law.

All buyers who purchased the mentioned programs under certain EULA are covered by such and not by any new or amended version of it.    Only new buyers would be affected, and if they read paragraph 4 certainly will not buy!

SERIOUS MISTAKE, my dear friends.  As a friend, as a man of experience in the field, since 1973, I can tell you this is the greatest mistake ever made in RL history.

As  CCDs we are seriously affected too.  Who is going to spend money in additional content if he cannot get a return from it?

Mike

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
You have actually also targeted this software to a new threat that was not very big before.

When you lock up something and start to be a dictator with complete control, that is a roar to attract every hacker, and cracker and anti protection code kid in exitance.  Why do you think that every thing Microsoft does is attacked and must be protected within hours. 

GOOD ANSWER, Hackers hate Microsoft and that has gone in generations now.  Just look at the market.  This will in the end also attract a market where you suddenly can't control anything.

Again look at what happened to microsoft and autodesc and macintosh and so, and so... all has lost their true base of power because hackers killed all their real protection and not to mention the virus specific attacks. When you want to details control anything on the net you also scream for freedom attacks on it!

I actually took the liberty to check around a bit and I can tell you that this has started, and it will get worse, much worse...

A worried, quite sad and a bit stunned

Gorz

By CloneBot Zack - 15 Years Ago
Hey again,

It's good to see everyone participating in the discussion and feel so passionately for iClone and Reallusion.

Here are the topics:
1. EULA
2. Gorz questions

EULA

So when we look at Clause 3:
You may generate, sell and redistribute your movies created with iClone
and/or CrazyTalk with full ownership and use-rights to the output media in
Image or Video format within the output guidelines of this agreement.

That's cool! So that means I can use iClone3 or CrazyTalk to make movies, sell them, create funny videos and give them as birthday gifts! But then, I look at Clause 4

Clause 4 states:
iClone and/or CrazyTalk output may be used, altered, or incorporated according to
the guidelines described herein into any work (including broadcast, commercial,
industrial, educational, and personal) that is created by YOU provided that work is
not then sold or distributed as either a single image, part of clip-art library, or stock
video or image collection.

What?! Sounds contradictory, doesn't it!? And if you said, "Yes, it does, Mr. Clonebot" Then you deserve a pat on the back for being absolutely intelligent!

Let me clear it up!

EULAs are non-retroactive, which means if you buy CrazyTalk5, that EULA is your EULA until the end of time. This new EULA is still a working document, and will be effective with the release of CrazyTalk6 (Now I done it, tipped off a release of a product)!

A working document means we are still hammering out the words. Clause 3 is the new one and it is highlighted so you can see the new freedom you will have. Clause 4 is not highlighted cause it is not the final draft. There will be a prohibitive use pertaining to stock videos and stock images... but don't quote me on that yet...

So the morale of the story is, your old EULA applies to you, when you buy new products from Reallusion, there will be a new EULA specifically design to give you more freedom to distribute your output. Sorry for the confusion Smile

Gorz Questions

He had a lot of good questions, so let's share them here:

Can I render let's say 50 ICON:s to a development and embed these into the code? The EULA states that I can not spread image collection:s, question is the embedded ICON:s to be regarded as a collection of images. I usually use formats like .jpg, .bmp, .gif and some times .ico format.


Yes, you can! You may use images rendered from iClone to create those Icons.

Can I render a collection of instruction movies and embed these into the software to clarify and enhance clarity of the softwares ( my developed software:s ) usage?


Yes, you can! In fact, if you want to generate more exposure for you software, post those videos to our Reallusion TV! Wink

If webshops like White Tiger, CoolClones and Clones2GO and others make commercial film clip like I did of two deers in a nature frame, after that I have some other pictures rendered from the same setup as thumbnail and product picture + maby one or two extra for information and service to the customer, I THE BREAK THE EULA AGREMENT!

How do the external web shops suppose to act to make PR within the EULA?????


No need to worry about this, since this is not part of the iClone3 EULA. And Clause 4 will be removed or edited to specifically state the prohibition of generating stock videos and images.


Are you sure it is lawyers who wrote this ?


Yes, I am sure. But I have to reassure everyone, we keep our shameless lawyers locked in cages. We only let them out for the following reasons:
1) Go for walks- or this place would be quite messy
2) Write Contracts and EULAs
3) And other lawyerly fun things

Here at Reallusion, we love creativity, and we foster it through the Developer Center and Creative Resource Center.
Lawyers don't steer the ship of Reallusion, our customers do...

Since everyone is giving Mr. Peter Edwards nice remarks, I thought I should jump in with my two cents! Pete has been a close friend and ally of both me and Reallusion. Throughout the years he has helped support us and keep the forum a place where people could ask their questions, get their answers and give & receive constructive criticism. I think Pete should run for President... but being he is British, I guess we just have to setter for Prime Minister...
Prime Minister Edwards, has a nice ring to it, no?!





By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
You see guys?

I knew our Good friend CloneBot Zack would come up and make all of us happy again!   This is actually another game!   "The Forum War against The Lord of the Lawyers" w00t

And we win.   Clever as always, lawyers put two paragraphs, contradictory in essence so in case of trouble they will come up and say:  "Yea, that's what it is but look at this paragraph, here we have a window to escape"  Cool

Then comes CloneBot and bangs on the meeting table and says:  "Let me fix this.  I have to take care of our product, you legalese confounders...!"

Gorz says something of relevance.    Piracy is attacking now iClone.  Too bad!   I wonder if it is a product of wrong policies or the simple trend of the underground markets.

We must be aware and report to R.L.  any findings about illegal usage of either programs or content.    We must together fight the plague that kills most good software when the lawyers start making it attractive to software thiefs!

Thanks CloneBot for coming up and telling us the EULA is not really the final EULA.

Also he confirms what I told the lawyers.  The only valid EULA is the one you agreed upon accepting it at the moment of installation. Wink

Good!   Let's relax again....  Until tomorrow!   BigGrin

By surajit - 15 Years Ago
Thanks for the clarifications and assurances CloneBot.

But I still don't get one thing. (I'm dumb for sure)

It is people who create short clips and video footage for sale, that need software like iClone.

Big animation studios create their own software or use high end and pricey solutions like Massive etc.

If adding the product clip or short animation as part of display in a stock video or image library is prohibited, how are these countless end producers going to reach the market?

If the more than 100,000 users of iClone were all producing big video films, and personally marketing and distributing them, they would all be production houses.

I had an idea that iClone was the common man's movie machine. And it is hard for me to understand what is to be gained by prohibiting stocking of video footage and image clips without creating viable alternatives for the end user to reach the market with his/her goods.

Pardon my comments if any had crossed prohibitory limits, but having boarded the Reallusion ship and having decided to make my voyage on it, I do feel concerned at the sight of black clouds.

I fervently hope all my fears are meaningless and the popularity of iClone and content sale would continue to increase even though people will not be able to add their clips or footage to stocks, but will have to market them piecemeal by themselves.

Regards

Surajit

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
In my mind this is a bit scilly, what would people say if PENTAX or CANON or any other manufacturer of  i.e cameras would say:

- in our EULA we state that you can only photograph your grandma 3 times / month and never more than 10 good pictures during a year! We have exclusive right to every picture taken with our camera. This is applicable by Californian LAW unless it is about aunty Heather with the short Black dress Wink

A render engine like iClone is in my mind very much a VR camera allowing you to film and photograph your scenes in detail and then distribute, sell or in any other way expose your creative talent. In my mind this is very much the same thing...

I agree that a good taste clause of the intellectual property like not USING i.e. Trinity in a sexshow or what ever is valid, but still trying with a law from california controlling the entire world is a bit dumb.  So I do think that a lawyer in China would probably laugh as much as the lawyers I asked here in SWEDEN about Californian law was applicable. The international copyright laws that states your owner ship and prohibition to spread the software is very much in effective here. But Californian law as such is not regarded much as anything that we care about.  If I write a Swedish EULA re one of my softwares I don't think anybody in US would care much about that...

In my mind what we should strive for is a creative space within certain rules where Reallusion, the CCD program have a bit of a service function to live up to, this to let us all be able to create our dreams and our visions without a stupid lawyer standing there blithering about the law. Common sense is what we all finally work from, being illegal is the easiest thing in the world, proving that it is so, almost impossible. The best space in the entire existence is the virtual computer world where no one actually needs to know who did what!

Let us see a EULA that recognize creativity and ingenuity and freedom of thought, I for one think that creative artists like "Armstrong" here in the forum has huge amount to teach us mortals about beauty and freedom of creation with sometimes simple means, sometimes a bit more tricks and trial and error. It would be a disaster to restrict a wizard like that!

Render, be happy and keep dreaming about wonderful things to SHOW us, your audience! Cool

Gorz

By Paumanok West - 15 Years Ago
Sorry for coming late to this discussion, and I may not be well-informed, but I have a problem with the prohibition on the sale of intellectual property created with the applications to stock image and video venues.

1) I am not aware that Adobe puts an analogous prohibition on original video sweetened and edited with Premiere or After Effects, or original photographs altered with PhotoShop. You buy the software, you do your work, you make a living best you can.

2) iClone and CrazyTalk could be used to create totally de novo works that do not contain a single shred of purchased content. Let's say I create an animated GIF of a flying crow from original video footage, apply it as a material to a largely transparent box, and move that through space in iClone, thereby making a totally original work. I can't sell that to a stock house? I think the prohibition is unenforceable for this clear-cut reason. But there are vastly more cases which are not so clear-cut which come under the fair-use doctrine. If I alter Trey or Violet beyond recognition, tweak the mocap, add creative lighting and set design, I very quickly reach the point where the new work is the moral property of the creator, and the software (astoundingly smart though it may be!) is just a dumb tool, such as a paintbrush.

3) I understand RL's business model is selling 3D software, probably with an even greater emphasis on revenue from content packs. If that is true, then I really have a hard time understanding how the proliferation of 2D images, whether they are still or moving, represent unfair competition in the first place. Of these 3 points, this one is the one we really need to talk about. I am a huge proponent of artists' rights. If we could understand how RL is trying to legitimately protect its own artists (and engineers; and its partners), perhaps I could be persuaded to support you on this. Otherwise, I think it's nonsense, and would urge users to bone up on Fair Use principles.
By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
Apparition (5/15/2009)

I was so astonished reading this!   I have been training my students to become proficient in iCLone production.  But not to play games.  It was with the intention of providing them with the right knowledge to buy and use a tool good for making movies, videos, educational material and so forth, TO BE SOLD.      ALL THIS IS FORBBIDEN in the new EULA.

Hi Mike,

Hopefully Zack has explained everything clearly now but I would like to add that even if Clause 4 were to stay intact in the final revision of the EULA, it does not mean you can't sell your videos as maybe you seemed to think in the quote above. It clearly states that Clause 4 applies only to:

"Single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection"

That means that your personally created movies, videos can be still sold or shared so no one should feel their freedom in this area is being impeeded. 

Don't you just love all this legal stuff. Wink

By Peter (RL) - 15 Years Ago
CloneBot Zack (5/15/2009)

Since everyone is giving Mr. Peter Edwards nice remarks, I thought I should jump in with my two cents! Pete has been a close friend and ally of both me and Reallusion. Throughout the years he has helped support us and keep the forum a place where people could ask their questions, get their answers and give & receive constructive criticism. I think Pete should run for President... but being he is British, I guess we just have to setter for Prime Minister...
Prime Minister Edwards, has a nice ring to it, no?!

Thanks Zack. Blush Based on the way things are at the moment I probabably couldn't do a worse job than the current PM. Then again.....

Psst I'll give you cash I promised you later. Laugh

By Paumanok West - 15 Years Ago
By the way, for what it's worth--perhaps not much--I agree with Gorz that RL has an interest in protecting its business by prohibiting what the creation of what I would call toxic media.

But as he pointed out, a product sold internationally is hard to regulate in the first place, and even here in the US, free speech laws might complicate the effort to regulate users.

But what's more problematic is the prospect of having a double standard for sex and violence. RL, you leaped aboard that oh-so slippery slope when you added a psychopath character and bloody body parts to your Backstage prop set.

In my opinion, the pornography of violence always trumps the pornography of pornography.
By surajit - 15 Years Ago
I may not have an English major, but I did my 5-year degree law course from Department of Law, Calcutta University, one of (if not the oldest) universities in Asia. Incidentally, I did pass the paper on Interpretation of Deeds and Documents. I had a successful practising life for eight years then chose to leave the profession to follow my heart. I know what I see.

The rules of interpretation say while interpreting any clause, the plain meaning, and not contrived meanings, have precedence.

To make it easy to find the plain meaning and intent of the parties, it is common practice to break the clause into phrases for easier analysis. I am breaking the statement in clause 4 of the EULA below so that the plain meaning (the one that has precedence in courts) becomes visible.

4. iClone and/or CrazyTalk output,

may be used, altered, or incorporated according to

the guidelines described herein into any work (including broadcast, commercial,

industrial, educational, and personal) that is created by YOU

PROVIDED

that work is not then sold or distributed as

either a single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection.

Pete, Zack happened to mention that you are British. You can find some of my articles on British, and European IP law on this page http://www.lawcrossing.co.uk/article/lcarticlearchive.php?type=239

You'll find the following articles among others penned by me (against fees) there:

Principles of Damages for Patent Infringement

The Consequences of Unilin v. Berry for IP Rights Infringement in the UK

 

Hope you like them. I did not give you links to my articles on the IP laws of other countries for it would be irrelevant to you.

And by the way, clause 4 means exactly what it says. If anything that passes through iClone is part of your content, either whole or in part, then you cannot sell or distribute that through the modes mentioned in the clause. The only, and unviable, option remains to personally sell and distribute your work piecemeal.

Regards

Surajit

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
To simplify things I hope that this is the answer to any iClone 3 user right now

written by Clonebot Zack today!

EULAs are non-retroactive, which means if you buy CrazyTalk5, that EULA is your EULA until the end of time. This new EULA is still a working document, and will be effective with the release of CrazyTalk6 (Now I done it, tipped off a release of a product)!

In my eyes that should mean that if you bought your software before this EULA it is not affecting your use of the software, dependant or not of the now newly instated EULA. So I hope and I think that the ordinary user can feel calm in using his/hers software copy in the same way as before this discussion.

May the pixels be with you!

Gorz

By stuckon3d - 15 Years Ago
Hello reallusion,
can you please clarify what you consider "Single image, part of clip-art library, or stock video or image collection"

By single image or image collection do you mean : comic book art work?
by stock video do you mean : moving shapes backdrops?
by clip art do you mean : still render of santa with an alpha? for example?

I just dont understand why these restriction? how does this affect you? People that buys stock stuff is because they dont have the time and/or the talent to do them themselves.

can you please clarify?

thanks,

Stuckon3d



By surajit - 15 Years Ago
Gorz, my friend,

These points are being raised here because this is the the thread for developers, people like you and Mike, and BigBoss , and a lot of other extremely talented people who do work as much for the love of it, as they work to earn.

The demand for pre-developed content, and especially the willingness to pay for it increases if the end user can easily use the software for personal earning. If avenues of earning for the end user are selectively cut off and constrained, the end users will be buying less content for they would be earning less, if anything at all. And that affects all developers.

It can help a company as a prelude to a takeover. Sales go down. Net worth of the company goes down. Company is trasferred at a low cost. Company promoters win, and small fry associated with the company get shell-shocked.

I am not saying that is what is happening at Reallusion, but this kind of crazy prohibitions that unreasonably restrict the end user's earning potential, and thereby the software's and associated content's salability is quite difficult to fathom.

As far as personal use under previous EULA is considered, a casual hobbyist may be satisfied, but then again this is the forum thread for developers, people who are not by any means casual hobbyists, but people who are also out to earn through use of the software.

My respects

Surajit

By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
Surajit!

Agreed, I also find your point very valid and I believe that we should kick this puss ball until it breaks and something sensible comes out of it!  I also find stuckon3d:s argument and attitude re the artists freedom 100% like my own opinion.

No matter how much EULA:s and lawyers they use, it is impossible to regulate 100.000 customers complete output, that is rubbish.  I would say that you can't rely control anything, the discussion here in my view is to find the balance between Reallusions wish, the CCD:s freedom of creation with RA:s blessing and the end users freedom of usage of the end product!

All the best

Gorz

By nigel - 15 Years Ago
Apparition (5/15/2009)
You see guys?

I knew our Good friend CloneBot Zack would come up and make all of us happy again!   This is actually another game!   "The Forum War against The Lord of the Lawyers" w00t

And we win.   Clever as always, lawyers put two paragraphs, contradictory in essence so in case of trouble they will come up and say:  "Yea, that's what it is but look at this paragraph, here we have a window to escape"  Cool

Then comes CloneBot and bangs on the meeting table and says:  "Let me fix this.  I have to take care of our product, you legalese confounders...!"

Gorz says something of relevance.    Piracy is attacking now iClone.  Too bad!   I wonder if it is a product of wrong policies or the simple trend of the underground markets.

We must be aware and report to R.L.  any findings about illegal usage of either programs or content.    We must together fight the plague that kills most good software when the lawyers start making it attractive to software thiefs!

Thanks CloneBot for coming up and telling us the EULA is not really the final EULA.

Also he confirms what I told the lawyers.  The only valid EULA is the one you agreed upon accepting it at the moment of installation. Wink

Good!   Let's relax again....  Until tomorrow!   BigGrin

  Hi Mike,

             I would just like to mention the illegal usage bit, this has nothing to do with reallusion but a true example of software.

             I bought Ultra 2 by serious magic (green screen app) approx 2 years ago, very soon Adobe took over, 3 weeks ago I bought a new Vista machine but would Adobe let me activate my bought software, NO.

             I contacted Adobe with my worry and they said 5 days later Ulra 2 was not compatible with vista and closed my ticket, end of story.

             But I did not give up, I played with the registry and configured it to bypass the activation, all working now as it was when I paid for it.

             The moral of the story is, Play fair or somebody will walk over you.   Hehe

By CloneBot Zack - 15 Years Ago
Hey everyone,

Sorry there appears to be some more confusion still about that Clause 4 in the New EULA.

Clause 4, and the New EULA for that matter, is still under construction.

We only released the working EULA so that you can see Clause 3 allows you to use iClone and CrazyTalk to create all types of media output, and that you can use the output in many ways.

I think there is some confusion about still about what we plan to prohibit with the New EULA. So let me give some examples, But this is not concrete, but at least you can see where we are going with this:

Let's pretend that a CCD created a pack of Characters. Then I buy that pack, paying for in the legal way. But then, I take his pack, render JPEGs of his characters, then sell those JPEGs as CrazyTalk image packs. That is a form of derivative we are trying to regulate.

Stock video is not a scene of another video. You can use iClone3 to create scenes to add into other videos. Stock video is something like this:

Let's pretend that another CCD created an awesome landscape with iClone Landscaper and Gardening pack. Sales that scene on the content store. I buy that 3D scene, buying in the legal way.
But then, I create renders of short film, maybe 3-5 seconds of being inside that 3D scene, maybe the camera is flying through, or slowly walking in the scene. I then sell this as stock video, and say, "Hey, why buy that expensive 3D scene created by that other CCD guy when you can buy my stock video for much cheaper, and it's less hassle!"

That is form of derivative we are trying to prohibit.

If you want to create a video using those characters and that 3d scenes, call it "CloneBot Zack in the 3D Scene of Doom". Render as an AVI, burn to a DVD and use that as your sale's pitch to Hollywood and make billions of dollars... go for it!
All I ask, is that you give me your autograph... and let me make a case study of your use of iClone, Wink

I think everyone knows that Reallusion goes out if its way for everyone to be creative and keeps things simple. That is why we are writing Royalty-Free clause, and why we are simplifying the New EULA for the CrazyTalk6 release. Smile

We are not "Big Brother"... nor "Big Sister" for that matter...

So, Clause 4, please ignore, if you look at the document, you will see that Clause 3 is in bold, simply because we were highlighting that clause for your attention. Clause 4 on the other hand is not, because it is still under construction. It is merely a working document.

And the examples I just gave, are merely examples. I am not a lawyer, so we have to wait for them to finish writing Clause 4, before we can debate Clause 4... till then, is anyone here happy about Clause 3?!

Clause 3 means you can use iClone and CrazyTalk freely as you please to create movies, commercials, TV programs, scenes for other movies, images that can be used for comic books, training materials, widget designs... just about everything.


By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Gee!  I was SO right!

This thread is looking moment by moment, like a "scrooges comedy film"! BigGrin

But the funny characters are certainly, the R.L. lawyers! Tongue

I would pay serious attention to Surajit comments because he is showing a clear understanding and experience on the topic covered here. Cool

My wife wanted to help too, as a gesture of cooperation with the novice lawyer who wrote the "EULA scratch"...  Can we call it like such? Smile

So she told me:  "tell this guys, according to CloneBot Zack last post above, they could write the scroogey paragraph very simply:

"Output products from iClone or CrazyTalk cannot contain other audio visual elements subject to copyright by other artists without their consent

An exception to this prohibition are: output derived from all Content Products sold by Reallusion Content Store, as this products are considered "Royalty free" or the default elements and content provided as part of the R.L. software installation.  

All images, videos, stock videos or whatever the programs output is, are included in this regulation.  No other restrictions are applied to the mentioned output from the R.L. programs.

Wow!  Isn't it so simple?

Like CloneBot is passing some money to Peter for his great help, I think R.L. lawyers should pass a big bundle to my wife Lisbeth, for having written the "scroogey" paragraph very simply an clear!

I would have to add:  CloneBot Zacks definitionf of "Stock material is not adecuate. 

 Stock audio visual materials are basically products offered to be used as elements in a subsequent audio visual production.    Simply means they are partially or totally finished elements, ready to be purchased and used either as they are, or modified by the end user, upon a user agreement with the stock provider.

Mike

By owenssj - 15 Years Ago
"Same Thing" Movie Stars in the past had a Reasonable Bit"h.I Know this is Different(Not Really)It's all about Money.In All Aspects IClone should Respect their Contributers.(ICone CCD Members and Beyond)It Makes Money/Half Price Most all the time." Next Subject" Go to any Royalty free Music Website,(Download)and you can Post that Theme on ICone.Royalty Free.It looks like it's been Done already......Iv'e Been having alot of Fun with IClone,and it's just a Hobby Of Mine.Had to put my 2 Cents in here.But Yes I Dis-Agree...
By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
you can download the sound effects right from iclone make a mix and sell them again.

I kind of like that idea myself.
By surajit - 15 Years Ago
Hi Mike, Greetings,

Send my respects to your wife, for her time and invaluable suggestion. Something that the new authoritarian rule in RA would never see eye to eye with. If you see the replies of our friends, the continuous efforts to delude and elude, and steering the thread carefully away from the main points, and trying to laugh away serious matters as of negligible consequence, the scene must be clear to you right now.

This is my logical solution to the problem: Delete clause 4 entirely from the end-user's EULA, and don't keep any unnecessary prohibitions in the EULA at all for it might affect the popularity and marketing of the software.

If the wish, as explained by Zack, is really to protect the rights of content developers, then each content pack contains it's own EULA and Read Me documents. Whoever wants such prohibitions on their content packs can safely lodge such prohibitions within the Read Me of the respective content pack without affecting the salability of the software as a whole, or the salability of the content of other developers who do not want such restrictions upon their content. This is the proper way out.

Further, in order not to misrepresent anything to the content purchasers, packs that contain prohibitions should be clearly marked as such and packs which do not contain such prohibitions shall be marked as such in the RA store. This way, everybody's interests are protected logically. Besides the comments of CloneBot and Pete, I would invite the comments of other developers on this suggestion..

The next part of my post is as much for asking the suggestions from other developers as it is for CloneBot and Pete, if they feel so inclined to respond, and do not decide to shoot me at Tianmen Square.

1. First let's deal with the topic of the end-users EULA. Nonsensical prohibitions and sanctions reflected in the end-user's EULA, cuts down the opportunities from every passenger on the Reallusion ship except the captains.

When I was talking of takeovers, I was not talking about RA trying to play Big Brother or Big Sister, but that the signs are of the takeover of RA by any other big company, of which this software will eventually become a plug-in.

If RA had plans of expansion of its own company, these prohibitions and sanctions designed to cut down sales and reducing the net worth of the company are unexplainable. In its place efforts to really popularise the software and market it positively would be on, not prohibitions on software usage by licensed end-users.

However, like Zack I'll say let's pretend, that a big company like AutoChair has struck a deal with promoters of Reallusion to take over RA. Then the deal would be

a) change your EULA's so that after we takeover we don't have to deal with renegade developers who can continue to supply the market with content without our control. And

b) do everything to reduce the net worth of the company so that we can acquire at a low actual price, and fool everybody. The future of the original promoters are secured because you become shareholders of a bigger company with whatever other sweets thrown in between. And the hell with the small fry. Also reducing the net worth of the company helps to buy off and pull together renegade shares at a low price before handing everything over to the other party.

c)do everything to control output rights until we come in and decide what is to be allowed and what not.

The present actions of Reallusion would be logical under the above scenerio. As it is, if such a scenerio doesn't exist the present attempts to change the EULA's under the pretext of "freedom from copyright" are illogical. Both end-users and developers were free enough as it was.

2. The dropping of an "apparently under construction" clause that could endanger the future of the entire developer community but is really concerned with end-users, has been able to successfully divert the attention of developers from the EULA for developers, as if that chapter is already closed. But no it is not.

There has been no concrete answers to Mike's pointing out of the clause that makes Reallusion the automatic owner of everything produced with developer tools, and there has been no change incorporated as far as our knowledge on this forum goes. The developer's EULA remains as it is with all it's castigation of free developers.

So the question of retroactivity comes in here too. When I registered my copy of iClone I became a registered member of the CCD program automatically. The company was putting out advertisemtns for developers to join and start developing and earning with Reallusion.

However, at that point of time, when I registered my software, accepted the representations of Reallusion upon good faith, and started to buy content and spend time and energy to prepare for entering the market, Reallusion did not warn me that there will be prohibitions by which all content produced with developer tools would automatically become Reallusion property, and will have to be mandatorily marketed through Reallusion.

My EULA with Reallusion comes into existence ab initio from the point of time I registered my software and signed up for the CCD program.

I specifically choose not to give my consent to new conditions that implicate that content produced by me with RA tools is RA property, and does so after I have spent months of time, given up my job, concentrated on developing a pipeline according to my experience, is on the verge of entering the market fullscale, and the company knows, that having invested, time, energy and money, it is pretty tough for CCD program members like me to start afresh in other avenues and bear the wastage.

I hate getting into controversies, but I also hate people trying to dictate my world unfairly, by representing one thing at one point of time and coming up with something else at another point of time. I'd rather remain a free pauper than an enslaved prince.

Regards

Surajit

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
my only concern is reallusions well being, and the artists well being, if the artists look good and are protected, reallusion looks good and is protected. And everyone can mutually benefit.

i know i don't have the popular vote, but no one realizes im looking out for everyone.

and i really don't care. I want this company to do well, end of discussion.

this is more legal tripe than support and art.

with that said, I think the store front should be an act of support that the artists that use iclone create tools to help other artist. the store front should be a show of support for our new artists, reallusion has been very fair with me and our discussions about opening shop.
The last thing I want to do is compete with their store front, the first thing i want to do is make their artists look great.

-yes i deleted the sentences because i'd rather make a point than vent-
By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
I want to see the new clause 4 in the redrafted EULA   A.S.A.P  

(So we get a concrete base for this discussion and not guesswork) 

It feels like treading quick sand here!

Gorz

By surajit - 15 Years Ago
Hi Planetstardragon,

Personally, I believe Zack and Pete are great people. They are also giving unexpected and personally overwhelming guidance to me for opening my upcoming web store of textures. They, as relationship people walk a tightrope between the policy makers and those who are influenced by policy. I fully sympathize with them and also respect them.

They provided hope to me at a time which is the toughest economic phase of my life. I thought I saw the light at the end of the tunnel, only to find RA lawyers conniving to send me once again into darkness.

However, this is a discussion forum, and there is no cause for Pete or Zack to go up to the lawyers and say, hey change this, unless some of us clearly type that out in the forum.

This is why this thread was started. RA didn't need to start this thread or enter into a discussion with any of us.

They could have just passed the EULAs and informed everybody next morning. They have the right to do that.

But, since the thread has been started, it has been done to invite all questions and opinions, and by expressing our opinions we are helping to do what RA wants.

That is why participating, and expressing your opinions becomes a moral responsibility. It is not to hurt or criticise anybody, or to reduce the role of RA in helping us all.

It is only to help make things better.

Our criticisms matter, only because RA thinks it important enough to open this thread of discussion.

If my comments hurt anybody or Reallusion, I offer my heartfelt apologies, and will remove any such comments made in ignorance.

But friend, I have been a lawyer, and have left that profession out of choice, and know the breed very closely. It is not that therer aren't honest lawyers, but it is very tough to remain so, at least in developing countries, and one has to keep their eyes and ears closed and tolerate the rape of justice everyday. Down here, the lawyer who can fool the law and deny justice is the professional achiever. Maybe my personal experiences are clouding my judgment. That is why I am asking every developer to express their own opinions.

Regards

Surajit

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
I can respect that and appreciate the time you gave me in such a response.

I will say this in the artists favor, Reallusion needs to understand that we are still artists and make "compositions" and we are entitled to our rights to be artists in our career. This is still an art to each of us.

But i think it would be best for all parties, consumer, company, artist and developer,
that we recognize the storefront as an act of support. In return, I would love nothing more to see Reallusion support us as artists. And if we have products we wish to keep our rights with, we simply are allowed to sell them in a format that does not compete with reallusion and still supported by reallusion.

Reallusion has every right to make their store front content royalty free.
The artist should have every right to do whatever they want with what they purchased from the reallusion storefront.
The Composer who uses the tools should have every right to protect his composition.
but also, what goes on in reallusion, stays in reallusion. royalty free does not mean i want to see our work pimped out into other systems. its not there yet, but thats where Im at. Im all about rights, mine and yours.


Im not saying things should be free, I've been working on this conversion for over 2 weeks already, still not done and we still have to go over it all again for quality assurance, then spend the time thinking of useful packages ....the time im spending doing this Im not doing my main gig, and its costing me electricity, so my act of support is not buying a rolls at your expense, lets not get it twisted. one hand washes the other, but who is planning on buying the soap ?

there should be a mutual support thing going on. I agree with all parties actually, but we have me along with many other people who just want to make cool movies and need your help.

I really should be spending more time learning to make the cool movies , but instead im trying to give what i wish i had. its hard..im a noob..but i care and am determined.

I count my blessings for Truebones / Joe's support and he is very excited about helping everyone look great, he really an artist and i am so lucky to learn what I am learning with him.
By NestleSnipes - 15 Years Ago
planetstardragon I have to agree 100 percent no one should dictate artist's rights. Your creation in a tool for creating is your creation in a tool for creating. For everyone else, imagine creating music in garage band or pro tools and because you used those tools to make music now these companies are telling you how to sell your creation!
By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
Thanks NS, yes, exactly, I believe artists should come first, and fortunately for us , we are all artists including reallusion.


By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
My Widget!   Oh!  Widgets don't work in posts!
By CloneBot Zack - 15 Years Ago
Here I try to explain again and cover the issues.

Tools
You may use our tools to develop iClone materials and use them freely in your projects or to sell that content. If you wish to sell directly on Reallusion's content store, you must agree to do so with a Royalty-Free clause. If you wish to sell on a3rd party site, then you must meet their requirements. If you wish to create your own store front online, please notify us, since you are selling materials that are using our proprietary format, we would like to know of your existence at least. If a customer approaches us and says, "Hey, is bob.com really a trusted site and I can buy iClone3 content there?" Would you rather Reallusion say, "yes, we know who they are, and you can trust them", or would you us rather say, "Bob.com? Who, what is that?! No, don't buy from them, we have no idea who they are! You could be downloading a virus disguised as a .VNS model"

When you use 3DS Max tools, do you own the rights to the models you created?
Yes, you do.
When you use Reallusion tools, do you own the rights to the models you created?
Yes, you do.

But we are a little different from 3ds max, because we have proprietary file formats, which means the content you make, can only be used by Reallusion products.

EULA and Stock Videos
Stock videos means short scenes in a movie, like establishing shots, or filler videos. You can use iClone or Crazytalk to make stock videos for any of your projects. However, there will be small restrictions of how to distribute stock videos for commercial use. What that restriction is, has not yet been written, but the purpose is to defend CCD artwork and content from abuse, not Reallusion's output.


Royalty Free
Means end-users, including yourselves, buy your content and can freely use them in videos for whatever purpose.

However, they cannot create derivatives.

So I cannot buy someone's music, change the tempo and sell it again. I cannot buy G3 character, make a JPEG of it, and sell it as a CrazyTalk6 image. I cannot buy a G3 character, change his texture and sell it again, but I can sell the texture and say it is specifically designed for that G3 character.

I can buy your G3 character and make a video of him dancing the polka with dandelions in his hair, and sell it on the streets of NYC. And will not pay royalties to you the developer, nor even mention your name in the creation, but I cannot claim I made the model, but I can claim the video output as mine, and I may do as I please with it. And you can do the same with your video outputs.

Royalty Free gives end-user more freedom, thus more clarity of how to legally use your product, which increases demand for your content.
If a end-user buys content from Reallusion Content store, they know it is royalty free and will be free to publish their work however they like. But if in that video they use Beethoven's Fur Elise, they must have obtained rights to that song before they publish and since that is not on Reallusion's Content Store, we cannot give you rights to that song.

If your output anything from iClone or CrazyTalk, you need to own or have permission to use whatever materials you used. And if everything you used were default content from iClone or CrazyTalk or content you bought from Reallusion Content store, then you have nothing to fear, because you have the permissions.
Do you understand why the clauses say what they say now? If you have a particular question, then post it with the specific article quoted, and I will clarify it from Reallusion's view of the agreement.

I hope now I clarified the issues, and about why Royalty Free is a sound business move for Reallusion and CCD.
If you don't wish your content on the Reallusion Store Front to be royalty free, May 22 is your deadline to request your content to be removed.

As about Clause 4, I will say it again now, and I will no longer answer questions about it until our lawyers finish writing the EULA for CrazyTalk6. Clause 4 is irrelevant at the moment, all you need to know about the new EULA is that, NOW you may do whatever you wish with your output as long as you own the rights to everything in your finished output.

If you wish to discuss with me, send email to zack@developer.com, not a message to my forum account. If you have questions, post here on the forum so everyone can read them, Thanks. Wink
By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
I got a very kind and gentle message from CloneBot Zack, so I would like to state I understood perfectly well the issues treated here.

I would recommend all Users and CCDs to stop worrying about the document contents discussed in here.   CLoneBot Zack represents the clear thought of Reallusion, regarding all products. Once we read the clear explanations and exemplified arguments he just posted, we all shoud rest in trust of his statments.

I would just add, in response to the friendly message recieved, we entered into this thread in response to the cordial invitation received and written in the first post, and the cordial suggestion we would explain our doubts and questions, freely and constructively.

If we used some humorous "add ons" to our own comments, was just to invigorate the discussion and to make it feel like a friends gathering in peaceful chat!

Thanks CloneBot for your patience and you understandig about some of us not being so quick to grab what you clearly explained.

All for the success of iClone and al the R.L products!

Mike Aparicio

By CloneBot Zack - 15 Years Ago
Hey everyone,

Great news! Clause 4 has been completely removed from the Software EULA!! BigGrin
Means, you can create any video and use it how you see fit, without restriction!

Here is a quote from the new Content EULA:

2.Reallusion grants you a non-exclusive Royalty-Free license to display Content within your iClone and/or CrazyTalk movies. You may generate, sell and redistribute your movies created with iClone and/or CrazyTalk with full ownership and use-rights to the output media in Image or Video format within the output guidelines of this agreement.

Clause 2 has a funny word that might cause confusion, so let me go ahead and translate from legalese to Plain-English. Non-exclusive right means you can buy and then use that content however you like, but you cannot turn around and sell it again to someone else.

More info from Content EULA:

1.You are not authorized to sell, resell, sell as, duplicate, distribute, sub-license, publish, market, or re-present - for re-sale or as free objects, any REALLUSION CONTENT STORE '3D model', or any derivative thereof.
2. You are authorized to sell, resell, sell as, duplicate, distribute, sub-license, publish, market, or re-present - for re-sale or as free objects, any modified default content, accept content designated as official contributing artist content, or any derivative thereof.


Clause 1 and 2 are the Derivative clauses I was hinting at from before. Means, I cannot buy someone's content then sell that content as resource for others. In other words, I cannot buy a Character, extract the texture, change that texture, then re-sell that texture.
But you can modify the default content as you like and sell unless it is official contributing artwork (which you will find in CrazyTalk6 upon its release Wink)
By Gorz - 15 Years Ago
A clear and sensible move from Reallusion, commendable and a guide light to others!

A sound and good step with the EULA.

Very good!

Gorz

By surajit - 15 Years Ago
It's a relief! Thanks a million for making everybody safe Zack. I am sure this would not have happened without the intervention of you guys.

My apologies for any hard words.

Regards

Surajit

By Apparition - 15 Years Ago
Oh!

I thought the three Stooges movies were gone!

This thread really has the same flavor!  BigGrin

For the forum flavor!.....     If not....!Smile

What is life without humor? Cool

By surajit - 15 Years Ago
That seems to me pretty horrid sense of humour.

However, I wouldn't know...

Since I don't have any.Hehe

By planetstardragon - 15 Years Ago
Humor is no laughing matter!

laughter must be taken seriously.

nuff said.