This article is worth a read, and might even help us get better scenes. I have been tempted to start threads on better rendering, but always got scared away. Anyway, this is worth a read.

http://www.vfxwizard.com/tutorials/gamma-correction-for-linear-workflow.html

Yep looks like a good article and knowledgeable author. Take note of the following what the author says.

"Unfortunately simply applying Gamma Correction to an existing rendering will not produce a better looking image. Instead, the image will probably look washed out and lacking in contrast. This is where most people give up with Gamma Correction. What's supposed to make images look better totally ruins them.

Renderings have to be produced from the beginning with Gamma Correction in mind."

He says from the beginning. Thats the most important point.
Iclone stuff was created with no linear workflow from the beginning. That's where the issue will be if stuff is not edited to work with linear workflow, or vice versa people creating stuff using linear and sending them to people using non-linear. It happens even in studios.

In RLs cases that's thousands of assets and thousand from users personal library. So everyone needs to understand this is not automatic or transparent. Texture linearization is automatic. Values are not.
This is the fault of people that started CG They should have started linearizing from the start decades ago. All tools and inputs.

Again, wrong interpretation from hattori kun (sorry I'll have to do this each time) about:
"Renderings have to be produced from the beginning with Gamma Correction in mind"

It simply means that color values (ie textures, etc..) have to be linearized prior rendering, and lighting has to be set differently, that's all (because the author of the article is not talking about linear workflow at first but about simple gamma correction of the rendered images, that is half of the process, once you are working in the context of a proper linear workflow as an all, you don't need to think about it anymore).

When you create a texture in photoshop for your asset, you work in sRGB space and that's all that matter. You don't start to think "oh my god, I'll use a linear workflow I have to modify my textures because of that". No, not at all, everything is simple and natural, no headache. What you see in photoshop is what you will see in your rendering.

So again, no panic, don't get fooled by hattori kun hysteria on this, it will all go smooth as demonstrated with the images I've posted in my first message, images that are proof of what I'm saying:

Mason won't need to be edited. Well, unless you want it to, of course.

And this is valid for all content assets.

--
guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

I'm sorry but clearly you need to review color space and how it affects an app.
You're a cg supervisor. I'm retired and cleaning the toilet at home is the highlight of the week . I have all day Just kidding.
Now you say that lighting has to be set differently? You said previously nothing would have to be changed. That was your statement and you stand by it. Its going to be transparent to users and users don't need to know about linear workflow.

Lets take away all factors and just talk about a simple value. A gradient for simplicity's sake.

Here's a gradient in an AB comparison. We wil not change anything as you propose.
The gradient on left(A) is in a non-linear scene which is how we work in Iclone now.
Gradient on the right(B) is how its being interpreted by a linear scene. See how color space affects the gradient. Look at the difference in range. The same gradient reacts differently in a scene. Imagine if this was a gradient/value in different aspects of a scene, a model, etc.

I already posted this previously from Maxon


Imagine it in a weight map. Remember that Iclone uses an image based weightmap though I don't know why vmaps are more versatile.
Don't you think that weightmap that was created in non linear needs some changing when inserted in a linear scene? The cloth sim would react differently.

In other appz users use a color corrector node to exclude some images from getting linearized by mistake because linearizing is a global overide and these users know linear workflow correctly.

No need to insist hattori kun.

When it comes to bad faith there is nothing to add.

--
guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

ok, what i'm getting from this so far is that linear will make my scenes look clearer, but this is not consistent because it can look washed out as well...

I wouldn't mind repairing old files if it meant that my scenes would look better more realistic and professional...

but the dilemma that comes to mind is, that if i had a scene look washed out ....can i adjust the lights to bring some of that contrast and shadow back ..... where as with non linear , Iclone now hosts infinite lights ...so other than my poor poor video card trying to keep up with that many lights to brighten up the scene ....I can at least fix it.

the impression I get is that with the linear workflow i may have trouble doing intentionally dark scenes.

from a technical stand point, i have more freedom with non linear being that infinite lights and photoshopping can do manual corrections....

from a creative standpoint - i will look cleaner from the start with little effort with linear but i will face technical caveats / limitations.

not taking sides, just reflecting what I'm getting from the discussion.

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Well, I'm affraid you have felt into the hattori kun brainwashing trap.

De-brainwashing cure: check again the two images I've posted in my first message and tell me if the second image looks "washed out" ?

Aside from the fact I've "simulated" what iClone could do automatically I didn't had to "repair" anything to make it work with a proper linear workflow.

If iClone implemented a linear workflow and I already had a scene corresponding to the first image, then by just loading the old scene "as-is" I would then get the "new result" corresponding to the second image, without touching anything.

Then again, and it is here were hattori kun make the confusion, if the "new result" does not work for your artistically, you may feel the need to adjust light, shading, etc..

The bottom line is: if your old scene is badly lit, then going linear won't make it "good", it will just make it technically correct.

--
guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.

well no, I'm thinking that black will never be black again, it will be a dark gray at max. That's a limitation.

In non linear - I can simply edit specific items I want to have that linear look by adjusting the gamma in a photo editor, or video editor for that matter...and leave the rest of the scene perfectly #000000 black - greater color control.

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Does ticking of the LINEAR WORKFLOW option in C4D help ?

Does AE take care of the LINEAR WORKFLOW automatically without having the user to intervene ?

No, no, no, remove immediately those ideas from your mind.

I was afraid hattori kun messages would do a lot of damage to peoples reading this thread and that's a shame.

Where did you got the idea that black will never be black ? Non-sense.

Have you seen recent blockbusters like Marvel movies, Hobbits, Transformer ? VFX in there are all done with "linear workflow". Does they look like having limitations or black not being black ?

What can I say ?

After having given so much explanations and arguments you simply state "well, no, black will never be black".

Where does that come from ?! A sudden revelation ?

You can have perfect black and dark ambiances with a linear workflow.


Anyway, after all, I'm trying to help and clear confusions but I wont fight against stubbornness nor bad faith.

Ultimately all that matter to me is that iClone get a proper linear workflow.


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guy rabiller | GOETZIWOOD STUDIOS
"N.O.E." (Nations Of Earth) Sci-Fi TV Show, Showrunner.